Im glad to see that others recognise that the third woe is the second coming.Originally Posted by ross3421
Road less travelled
Im glad to see that others recognise that the third woe is the second coming.
Everyone who thinks the 7th Trumpet is the Second Coming is forced into that conclusion.
As the 7th Trumpet is the last stated trumpet in Revelation, so people make them equivalent.
Yet Rev 12 should clarify things, which shows that the 7th Trumpet is a woe for the earth, just like the 6th and the 5th.
Jesus' return is NOT the woe, and is NEVER described as such.
Rev 8:13* Then I looked, and I heard an eagle crying with a loud voice as it flew directly overhead, “Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, at the blasts of the other trumpets that the three angels are about to blow!”
Yes, and? This doesn't make Rev 16 the same as Rev 9.
Rev 9 is specified as being the 6th Trumpet. Rev 16 is NOT the 6th Trumpet but the 6th vial, notice no one dies in the 6th vial. They assemble at Armageddon, but the dying occurs with the 7th vial and the return of Jesus.
This is a Trumpet which heralds the change, it is when Jesus is crowned in the Heavenlies and when Satan is cast out of heaven. Jesus' role changes from Mediator to King.The 7th trumpet is when “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah
Read Rev 12:
Rev 12:10* And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.*
Rev 12:11* And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.*
Rev 12:12* Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”*
Notice the SAME language as in Rev 11.
It is speaking the SAME word - NOW has it come.
We find a similar thing in a parable of Jesus:
Mat 25:6* But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’*
Mat 25:7* Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps.*
Mat 25:8* And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’*
Mat 25:9* But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’*
Mat 25:10* And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut.*
Was the Bridegroom LITERALLY come at that very moment?
No of course not, for if he were then all of them would have come out to meet him.
The herald precedes the King. It is the fanfare BEFORE the arrival.
It is the time when Jesus is crowned as King of Kings.
Luk 19:12* He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return.
Jesus is the nobleman, and he receives His kingdom in heaven. After receiving it He will then return.
You confuse Him being crowned with His arrival.
Road less travelled
The authority of Christ is progressive in this world, through the church Satan is overcome, and removed from the heavenlies as per Rev 12, but still has obvious authority on earth:
the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony for they loved not their lives even unto death. Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath
The description of Rev 11 goes further when Jesus takes authority of the kingdoms of the world :
“The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”
I can see why you match the two events, but on further analysis the one event involves SATAN INCREASING his activity on earth. In other event JESUS takes authority over earth.
Road less travelled
Jesus return is associated with the day of the Lord, it is a day of wrath. That is a woe.
There are multiple times of wrath.
Luke notes something else:
Luk 17:22* And he said to the disciples, “The days are coming when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it.*
God has many days.
There is the day when He is crowned, there is the day when He will lead Israel out of Jerusalem into the wilderness, there are the days connected with each vial and trumpet (which are days of wrath).
There is ONLY one day in which He returns, and it seems that day is when the beast is also destroyed.
The woes however are connected with each Trumpet blast and the troubles on the earth NOT with Jesus coming to save.
Are you really claiming that ALL 3 woes are THE Day of wrath?
If not then why is one somehow THE Day, when the others clearly are not.
The simple way of understanding Revelation which causes zero issues with chronology is that you have 7 seals broken followed by 7 trumpets blown followed by 7 vials poured.
You can say the 7 trumpets are all part of the 7th seal, and the 7 vials are all part of the 7th trumpet, but the order remains.
None of the trumpets are before ALL the seals are broken.
None of the vials are before ALL the trumpets are blown.
What this then forces to happen, is those pre-trib adherents, and those who claim the 7th trumpet is the last one though it is but 7th in the series of 7 - note
Rev 8:2* Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.
The trumpets are of one group.
The final trumpet is different to the 7.
Have you never read about the wheat and the tares:
Mat 13:30* Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.
Notice BOTH grow together UNTIL full fruition.
The work of Satan will increase even as Jesus displays His power.
The simple FACT is that Rev 12 and Rev 11 state the Kingdom of our Lord has come AND contrary to your suggestion His authority TOO!
Rev 12:10* And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.
You see His authority STARTS in heaven.
Further we are told what the woe is:
Rev 12:12* Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”
Notice that the statement about woe is about Satan NOT Jesus.
Also note that it is the SAME point as made earlier about the woes:
Rev 8:13* Then I looked, and I heard an eagle crying with a loud voice as it flew directly overhead, “Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, at the blasts of the other trumpets that the three angels are about to blow!”
Satan is removed in a final climatic confrontation when he and his angels are cast out NEVER to return.
Christ's authority is NOT progressive.
He has been given ALL authority - yet has not yet been crowned. Now is the time for His body to be fruitful and to give testimony.
Veteran
In short I will tell you why I think the 7th Seal is in just the place God meant it to be.
The First Seals are all God's Wrath but mankind on sees it is "of God" at the 6th Seal. Then we have an interlude so to speaks as per the "Judgments" and God shows us "LIVE ACTION" elsewhere, the Jews Fleeing Judea (Rev. 7:1-8) and the Church/Bride in Heaven (Rev. 7:9-17). Then we get the 7th Seal, which is what God meant by hold back the FOUR WINDS that they hurt not they earth. Winds are always associated with judgments of God, the Beasts of Dan. 7 were brought forth by the four winds etc. etc. So God held back the Judgment until the Jews were safe in the Wilderness/Petra. We know from chapter 8 what is going to be hurt, the trees (1/3 trees), the earth (grasses burned, plagues) and the Seas (sea poisoned, sea creatures dying). So God holds back the Plagues until the Jews make it to Petra. Then the 7th Seal is opened and this brings forth the 7 Trumps.
Not surprising at all, that is why I say they are an Angelic Army. We get a Demonic horde for the First Woe, and we get an Angelic Army for the 2nd Woe. I mean it has nothing to do with the Kings of the East, these are Plagues and plagues are of God. These can't be Demon Angels, the 1st We was Demonic, so this is a human army or an Angelic Army. Thus we see these are Plagues and this is an Angelic Army on Horses, like Jesus is seen on a horse.
As per you bolded, I think its clear the 7th Seal is the 7 Trumpets, the Lat Seal has 7 Trumpets brought forth. Just like the last Woe (7th Trump) is all 7 Vials. Google the Seal, Trumpet and Vials and you will see many Images show this. You see, the Seals OPEN IT ALL at not many get that. That is why its called the Lambs Wrath in ch. 6.
I really think the 144,000 confuses 90 percent of Christendom. They think its actually 144,000 virgins.
Veteran
It is the Second Coming, but it happens at the end if the 7th Vial in chapter 16. The 7th Trumpet is ALL 7 Vials.
Rev. 12 is not a Woe, just because it says Woe, doesn't mean it is a Woe of God the last three Trumpets are the Woes and the 7th Trumpet = ALL 7 Vials.Everyone who thinks the 7th Trumpet is the Second Coming is forced into that conclusion.
As the 7th Trumpet is the last stated trumpet in Revelation, so people make them equivalent.
Yet Rev 12 should clarify things, which shows that the 7th Trumpet is a woe for the earth, just like the 6th and the 5th.
Jesus' return is NOT the woe, and is NEVER described as such.
Rev 8:13* Then I looked, and I heard an eagle crying with a loud voice as it flew directly overhead, “Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, at the blasts of the other trumpets that the three angels are about to blow!”
Of course it is, the Day of the Lord lasts for 3.5 year so it runs from the 1st Seal to the 7th Vial which is when Jesus returns, which is a part of the 3rd Woe.Everyone who thinks the 7th Trumpet is the Second Coming is forced into that conclusion.
As the 7th Trumpet is the last stated trumpet in Revelation, so people make them equivalent.
Yet Rev 12 should clarify things, which shows that the 7th Trumpet is a woe for the earth, just like the 6th and the 5th.
Jesus' return is NOT the woe, and is NEVER described as such.
Rev 8:13* Then I looked, and I heard an eagle crying with a loud voice as it flew directly overhead, “Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, at the blasts of the other trumpets that the three angels are about to blow!”
The Wheat is Israel, the Tares are the Wicked on earth, the Bride is in Heaven at this time. So EVERYTHING FITS !! The Rapture, the Wheat and he Tares.Have you never read about the wheat and the tares:
Mat 13:30* Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.
Notice BOTH grow together UNTIL full fruition.
The work of Satan will increase even as Jesus displays His power.
Road less travelled
I don't see much evidence in the text itself that "it's clear that the 7th seal is the 7 trumpets"
Rev is full of visions, they are often introduced with the phrase "And I saw" or "Then I saw", just that fact points to the strong possibility that Rev 8:2 is a new vision.
Posting Freak
FWIW, I believe that the stated "woe unto the earth" in Revelation 12 is the "1st Woe" [unto the earth] at the 5th Trumpet, exactly at mid-trib... thus, I believe that the 2W's 1260 days of "their testimony" STRADDLES the 2 halves, and starts about 1/4 of the way into it and finishes about 3/4 of the way into it:
l------------l------------l [=7yrs; 2 halves of 1260 days each]
------l--(1260d)--l----- [superimposed onto the above line... something like that]
Posting Freak
I pretty much agree with this ^ that they are the same (and that the "time, times, half a time" [esp from Dan12's wording] will be especially understood by Israel/Jews at that time, to be a VERY PRECISE span of time, from point A to its end-point Point B),
...except I believe that the 1290 days [and the 1335d] is only slightly before the mid-point, and then ending only slightly after the end point (rather than, as some believe, a total of 75 days following the end-point); because of the same reasoning I put above (which I won't go into in this post)
Posting Freak
I pretty much agree with this ^ that they are the same (and that the "time, times, half a time" [esp from Dan12's wording] will be especially understood by Israel/Jews at that time, to be a VERY PRECISE span of time, from Point A to its end-point Point B),
...except I believe that the 1290 days [and the 1335d] is only slightly before the mid-point, and then ending only slightly after the end point (rather than, as some believe, a total of 75 days following the end-point); because of the same reasoning I put above (which I won't go into in this post)
Out of the Box
Rev 10
11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
Does this not mean that what John has said to the churches must now be retold again????
Not seeing this verse would then lend you to believe that the revelation continues though to chapter 22 without repeating and thus causes confusion to those. When in fact starting chapter 12 the revelation repeats to a different set of folks in a slightly different narrative. So there are not two sets of 3.5 years and so on.....
Veteran
The 5th Trumpet is the 1st Woe where Apollyon and his Demon hordes are released, so that is a good thought as per Satan being cast down also at this time, but in the end I kind of discount it because we know the Dragon chases the Woman for 1260 days, and I guess he uses the Anti-Christ so he could still do that, but I see Sata as being cast down at the 6th Seal, I don't see actual stars falling to Heaven, I think it is Satan and his Angels that are cast down like untimely figs.FWIW, I believe that the stated "woe unto the earth" in Revelation 12 is the "1st Woe" [unto the earth] at the 5th Trumpet, exactly at mid-trib... thus, I believe that the 2W's 1260 days of "their testimony" STRADDLES the 2 halves, and starts about 1/4 of the way into it and finishes about 3/4 of the way into it:
l------------l------------l [=7yrs; 2 halves of 1260 days each]
------l--(1260d)--l----- [superimposed onto the above line... something like that
The 2 W testimony does straddle the two halves, but since they die at the 2nd Woe I don't think it can be over 400 days till Jesus returns. I see at as a 75 day difference on both ends instead of 1/4. But Satan might indeed be cast down at he 5th Trumpet as Apollyon is being released, I see it as Seal #6 but I am opened to thinking on that, but not it being Woe number 2 or 3.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks