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Thread: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

  1. #46
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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    [QUOTE=Noeb;3483360]Jesus said he established the NC with his blood. You're just going to have to deal with that.

    That day? What day? Jer 31:31 doesn't say that day, and why you inject the necessity of resurrection is beyond anyone, I promise you.


    Delusion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    And then He institutes a New Ritual with bread and a cup which must be celebrated "till He comes" (1st Cor.11:26). So please explain ...
    1. Why our Lord will not eat of the Passover for 2,000 years but then eat of it again?
    2. Why our Lord Jesus, who you have repeatedly said is the fulfillment of the Passover, says that it will only be fulfilled in the Millennium?
    3. Why our Lord, Who said not one jot or tittle of the Law will pass until after the Millennium, refuses the Passover for 2,000 years?
    4. On what basis do you say the Law is "obsolete" when the Passover, one of the Covenants of the Law, and an integral part of it, will be feasted by no less than Emanuel when He returns?
    5. Why our Lord institutes bread and wine as a memorial and promptly decides not to partake of the vine again for 2,000 years?
    1 He doesn't wanna/hafta? He just wants to wait til he's on earth with those of faith to do so. So?
    2 He didn't
    3 He didn't. He said the natural/moral/spirit of the law (context) endures as long as the earth, which is forever.
    4 The law was obsolete long before Jesus came. God departed, and man was just exercising religion. However ceremony/ritual in its proper place is a beautiful thing. That's all Jesus was and will do. It's not efficacious and hasn't been since God departed, which was long before Jesus came.
    5 see 4


    Context is the moral/natural/spirit of the law. Not destroyed. It amazes me that people say it's destroyed while using Jesus' words that it's not. But then look at some of the things you have said. Don't get me wrong, I have thought some of the same things, but not void of doubt. Because what both side say doesn't jive with scripture. What does jive with scripture is that the law endures forever and Jesus shed his blood to institute the NC.
    Thank you for your reply. As you have only given an opinion without scripture, and have mostly taken my answer to brother Trivalee out of the middle of a discussion, I will pass without comment.

  2. #47
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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    There is scripture in my post, and of course you will pass. You claimed Jesus said things he did not and have no scripture to back up your claims.

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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Then, by your logic, the New Covenant was instituted on Golgotha in 30 AD. So I ask you to show;
    1. The House of Israel on that day. Remember, a huge resurrection would have to have taken place that day all over the world and a massive rapture from foreign lands to Israel, for ten-twelfths of Jacob's seed make up this House
    2. The House of Judah on that day. Remember, another huge resurrection and rapture must have taken place worldwide to gather all of Judah and Benjamin's seed over the centuries, for they also belong to this House
    3. The change from Laws written on tables to written on the Israelite's heart and mind. Remember, the Jews got the soldiers to LIE about Jesus' body three days after Golgotha. Is this how the Law written on the hearts works?
    4. The Israelites, from that day forth, keeping the "ordinances". But for this they need a Temple and God allowed it to be taken away within 40 years.
    5. The Israelites never ever breaking a commandment again, otherwise, as shown above in the rest of Jeremiah 31, they would have ceased to exist. But what do we see today, over 1,900 years later?

    In the friendliest terms possible I think we should reserve the word "ludicrous" for something else.
    1. Until you realise that the New Covenant is for those who believe [Jew/Gentile] you'll never get it. The fact you continue to associate it only with Israel and Judah shows how far away you are from the truth. I don't know why you believe the Rapture and resurrection have anything to do with it?

    2. House of Judah...resurrection, rapture, Benjamin's seed...what's these got to do with the New Covenant?

    3. The law written in the heart now is the law of Christ. It is being facilitated daily in the hearts and minds of the faithful. On the day it started [Pentecost] the Disciples were representative of Israel and Judah.

    4. With his death, Jesus put an end to the OT covenant and ordinances of worship. Animal sacrifices in the temple were based on the works of the law to attain eternal life, but with the NC, a better way has been provided for atonement through faith in Jesus Christ.

    5. It is impossible to observe the law without fail, that's why he had to die to usher in a better covenant.

  4. #49
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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    So this is all you have to say to my previous post?
    You didn't answer my question at all. Why would I respond to these other things?


    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    First who were present with the Lord? Only the apostles of circumcision, more over the Lord's supper is not a new institution specifically for « the » Church, what says the Lord in Luke 22:15? « And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer ». So the Lords supper is the real pascha or passover. What does the O.T. say about the passover? Exo. 12:48 « And when a stranger shall sojourn with you, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

    So Paul talked to Jews in 1 Cor. 11:17 — 34, which makes sense because the Law require both in the Old and the New Covenant circumcision and that is required to eat of the passover. For this same reason Bible interpreters called the Lord's supper also the paschal supper or meal. You are aware the lord was the true paschal lamb?
    Abraham was circumcise and was a Gentile, and we (Christians) are circumcised - are the circumcision -- Rom 2:29, 4:10-12; Phil 3:3; Col 2:11.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    The fact you want to appropriate the New Covenant shows you want no groups
    No it does not. There's nothing wrong with groups.

    Paul was not shy in specifying when he was speaking to either Jews or Gentiles specifically and did it in many places, yet he did not do this in 1Cor 11. He was speaking to all, plain and simple. You're ignoring this fact and twisting scripture to try and make it fit. Not good.

  5. #50
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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    1. That Israel rejected Christ doesn't mean there's a different pathway for them to eternal life! If they are still under the First Covenant as you claim, what about the Apostles and thousands of Jews that have believed in Christ since the 1st-century? Where do you place them?

    2. Your argument here doesn't make sense, you said for: "Only for Jews who converted to Christianity. For Israel, all remains the same". Are you by any chance saying that the Jews that converted to Christianity are no longer part of Israel? This is obviously a problem for you because, on the one hand, we have Isreali converts in Christ and on the other, the majority that remains in unbelief. I will keep coming at you until you explain the fate of Jewish Christians given your position that the NC is still future?

    3. Huh I said that the moral commandments remain i.e. the 10 Commandments. Also, Jesus said he has not come to destroy but to fulfil the law (Matt 5:17). But with regards to the ordinances embodied in animal sacrifices, scripture says:

    Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

    Furthermore, to replace these ordinances Jesus became not only the mediator of the New Covenant, but our eternal High Priest. This means that in place of the daily sacrifices, Jesus made a one-off sacrifice with his flesh for the remission of sins (Heb 10:12).

    4. Understandably, your comment suggests that you're still missing the fact that the New Covenant is the cornerstone of our eternal life. And this is what God meant when he told Abraham that the heathen will be justified through faith (Gal 3:8).
    And here at last is the crux of our dispute. I'm so glad it has come out from your pen, and not my suspicions. Let me say it more than once just so that we can lay it to rest:
    1. There is NOT A SINGLE COVENANT THAT ADDRESSES, CONCERNS, SETS FORTH OR SHOWS THE WAY TO SALVATION AND/OR ETERNAL LIFE!
    2. The Covenants are CONTRACTS that lay down God's requirements of His People and which lay down REWARD for keeping them, and LOSS for not keeping them. That is, Covenants address WORKS!
    3. SALVATION, REBIRTH AND /OR ETERNAL LIFE ARE NOT HAD BY COVENANT!!!

    If you cannot comprehend this then try this little test. Take every Covenant that God ever made and lay down what God required of the men He addressed, and what the men He addressed would GAIN by obedience, and what the men He addressed would LOOSE if they broke the Covenant. To save you a whole thesis, let me narrow it down. The Covenant that the New Covenant REPLACES is the Covenant of Law at Sinai. To save you reading and noting five Books of the Bible, just take Leviticus Chapter 26 and Deuteronomy Chapter 28. They contain summaries of the blessings and penalties of the Covenant of Law at Sinai. See how many verses address SALVATION, ETERNAL LIFE and/or REBIRTH.

    Since your objections to my theory that the New Covenant is ...
    • ONLY for Israel
    • A Covenant of the same LAW
    • Is FUTURE
    • Is RATIFIED by Christ's blood BUT NOT YET INSTITUTED
    • Is INSTITUTED when the two Houses of Israel are resurrected, gathered to Canaan, and re-united

    ... is based on the above erroneous foundation that they address salvation, eternal life and/or rebirth, may I pass on answering your other answers. We have here a fundamental DIFFERENCE that, if not cleared up, will lead to reams of writing without a purpose. But, if you feel that you do not need to sort this big point out, let me know and I'll answer your further postings. Don't get me wrong. I do not duck them or evade your answers, but I'm sure you will agree, if the foundation is teetering, we had better fix that first.

    Here is your cue. Was Abraham counted righteous BEFORE or AFTER the Covenant of Promise (which required circumcision)? Romans 4:1-10 might help. You see, salvation, eternal life and rebirth are ALL HAD BY FAITH (Jn.1:12-13, 3:15; Eph.2:8). No Covenant is necessary! And so it is with the Church. No Covenant is necessary for Salvation, Eternal Life and/or Rebirth. The Covenant of Promise is by DEFAULT because we are IN Christ and he is Seed of Abraham (Gal.3:29). And the Covenant of Promise IS FOR THE OWNERSHIP OF THE EARTH (Rom.4:13). The Covenant of LAW is for CONTINUED OWNERSHIP OF CANAAN (Deut.4:23-27, 40, 5:33, 11:8-9, etc.). And that is why Jeremiah continues about Israel's posterity in Chapter 31 after introducing the New Covenant that would be effective and THAT WOULD KEEP THEM IN THE LAND. God HAD to institute this New Covenant OF LAW because in His Covenant of PROMISE, He had promised to give Israel Canaan "... for an everlasting possession" (Gen.17:8, 48:4)!
    Last edited by Walls; Jan 23rd 2019 at 07:00 PM.

  6. #51
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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    By accident or design, I may not judge, you again swap the Covenant of PROMISE made with Abraham with the Covenant of LAW made at Sinai. Jeremiah 31 says that the Covenant made with "the fathers of Israel who came out of Egypt" will be replaced by a New Covenant. The "fathers of Israel who came out of Egypt" did so 430 years later than God made a Covenant NOT OF LAW BUT OF PROMISE with Abraham. Take your time to consider this brother, for you have now twice twisted scripture.

    For the record let us one-for-all put this matter to rest. Galatians 3:17 says:

    "And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect"

    The New Covenant REPLACES that of SINAI, not that with Abraham!
    The Covenant at Sinai and God's assurance to Abraham that through him, Gentiles would be saved are interrelated. Here Paul:

    Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
    10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
    11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.


    The New Covenant provided a better pathway to justification, ie. a one-off sacrifice and forgiveness of sins, grace, etc.

    Show us the plain language for this. Jeremiah, in the plainest of language, says the New Covenant is with BOTH HOUSES OF ISRAEL! Show me your scriptures that say it is made with "ALL the faithful in Christ"! I dare you! Galatians 6:1-2 addresses a BELIEVER - not Israel as Jeremiah does. And there is NO MENTION of a New Covenant in these verses! Where is your "plain language"?
    Here are just a few.

    Heb 8:6 But now [present tense] hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
    Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
    15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
    16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;


    Notice what v-15 says - the law written in ours is the Spirit of God teaching the faithful through discernment of the things of God.

    In dying, our Lord Jesus broke down the middle wall of partition for ex-Jew IN THE CHURCH - NOT ISRAEL. And again you insert the Covenant of PROMISE made 430 years earlier than that of Sinai - WHICH THE NEW COVENANT REPLACES!
    What do mean by "ex-Jew in the church"? In Eph 2:11-22 Paul explained in unambiguous language that Gentiles who were once (in the first covenant) alienated and separated from the commonwealth of Israel are now [New Covenant, NT age] reconciled and integrated with Israel in spirit. None Jews are now partakers of the Covenant of Promise through faith in Christ.

    Then answer
    1. with proof that "THAT DAY" of Jeremiah 31:31 has passed and BOTH Houses of Israel were resurrected and assembled to receive the Covenant
    2. the points in my previous posting and I will be satisfied.

    But here now is a question for you. In Luke 22:7-18 (which I leave below for reference) the Passover, a Covenant of the Law, "must be killed". Our Lord Jesus then eats of this animal sacrifice and then says that He will NOT "kill and eat" of that Passover till He returns and sets up the Kingdom of God. He further states that ONLY THEN, in the Millennial Kingdom of God, it will be fulfilled. And then He institutes a New Ritual with bread and a cup which must be celebrated "till He comes" (1st Cor.11:26). So please explain ...
    1. Why our Lord will not eat of the Passover for 2,000 years but then eat of it again?
    2. Why our Lord Jesus, who you have repeatedly said is the fulfillment of the Passover, says that it will only be fulfilled in the Millennium?
    3. Why our Lord, Who said not one jot or tittle of the Law will pass until after the Millennium, refuses the Passover for 2,000 years?
    4. On what basis do you say the Law is "obsolete" when the Passover, one of the Covenants of the Law, and an integral part of it, will be feasted by no less than Emanuel when He returns?
    5. Why our Lord institutes bread and wine as a memorial and promptly decides not to partake of the vine again for 2,000 years?

    I understand if you refuse this little exercise, but then you must stop saying that the Law is "abolished" and/0r "obsolete". It is ONLY SO FOR THE CHURCH AND NOT ISRAEL!

    7 "Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
    8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.
    9 And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare?
    10 And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.
    11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
    12 And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready.
    13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
    14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
    15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
    16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
    17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
    18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come."
    I'm getting used to being quoted out of context. I have severally clarified the aspects of the law that are now obsolete, read my posts. Passover is not affected (Matt 24:20).

  7. #52
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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    Was the purpose and/or institution of the law a means of salvation?

    Verse list:
    Gal 3:19-21 KJV Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

    Hopefully you answered no to my question. And if you did, then:

    *[[Heb 8:7]] KJV* For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second...
    *[[Heb 8:13]] KJV* In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

    And if the new is replacing the old, why are you replacing a non-salvational covenant with one that does offer salvation? And if salvation WAS NOT offered under the old covenant, everyone who lived under it had no hope of salvation. Unless you are inclined to think that there was a means of salvation prior to Calvary, in which case the New Covenant was instituted as a means of salvation that replaced a prior means of salvation that was defective. [Sarcasm...] Oh right, Israel could be dabbled under the OC, but not Gentiles. Faith has always been the means salvation, and never by the works of the law. Which brings us back to the New covenant is only with the houses of Israel and Judah, and not Gentiles. So now we are back to having to say that [the houses of Israel and Judah] means everybody. I can see why you are stuck in your beliefs.

    As far as the issue of transgression goes, if dalvation is not an afforded option under the old covenant, of what value is it to redeem transgressions that were made under the first covenant? Those people under the OC were dead and gone and nothing can change that.

    *[[Heb 9:15]] KJV* And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

    This is tantamount to saying that those who died Unger the first covenant are going to be saved, without Christ. We know that is not true. Going back to the purpose for instituting the first covenant:

    Verse list:
    Gal 3:19-21 KJV Wherefore then serveth the law? It was ADDED BECAUSE OF TRANSGRESSIONS, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

    It is by the (giving of and being under) the law that defines transgression. Let me say it again. SIN is the transgression of God's laws. You don't have to have or be "under the law" to be guilty of sin. It encompass all of us, except Christ. So when Paul said that the law was added because of transgressions, it was not added as a means of salvation, by manifesting righteousness, it manifested what constitutes sin, by being under the law. And this is what Christ presents when he presents himself before the father as our high priest... unblemished, unblameable holiness. And this is why the NC replaces the OC. ALL who inherits the kingdom of God will do so in perfect holiness, having the conscience purged from sin, and not just having our flesh purified:

    *[[Heb 9:14]] KJV* How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    The work of Christ and his atoning blood, is in no way nullified by the new covenant. It enables man to be able to keep it. No man can keep the laws of God without the completed work of redemption and regeneration of Christ that is foundational to entering into the new covenant.

    Blessings
    The PuP

    *[[1Th 3:13]] KJV* To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
    Under the OT covenant, the ordinances of animal sacrifice provided atonement for sins. It was, however, impossible to observe effectively because of Israel proclivity to sin. The devout in the OT didn't receive salvation but were adjudged to be righteous because of their faith according to Hebrews 11. Not sure why you introduced "salvation" into the mix because I didn't.

    It is a narrow-minded viewpoint to associate the New Covenant with only Israel and Judah. In Eph 2:11-22 Paul explained in plain language that the partition separating the believing Jew and Gentile has been removed, making us ONE in the spirit. If you can't understand this simple doctrine, then you will continue to err. I'm not sure whether you are still arguing that the New Covenant is now operative or not, to be honest?

  8. #53
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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    Apparently not. Hebrews 9:15 - And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Verse 28 - so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
    Thank you. Still leaves one wondering why some continue to claim that the new covenant is still in the future?

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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    This question is just to try to put people in a corner so they will accept they are in the New Covenant, but it isn't a good question at all since Hebrews 9:28 answers this: « So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many ... ». Doesn't it strike anybody it says « many », not « all »? This is because in Hebrews it is about the New Covenant with Israel, in 2 Cor. 5:15 it says « And that he died for all ... » this is not about the New Covenant that is only with Israel.
    I have no wish to put anyone in a corner, believe me. I just asked a pertinent question that those who claim that the New Covenant is still in the future must have to deal with. The contrary, the new covenant is associated with the forgiveness of sin.

    Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

    13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
    14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
    15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
    16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
    17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
    18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Let me see if I can bring this conversation to a single point of discussion. This is a relevant point that is only being discussed at length.

    Verse list:
    1Co 11:23-29 KJV For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

    1. Jesus instituted the table of communion with his disciples on the night of Passover.
    2. It is an institution for the church.
    3. It is done in REMEMBRANCE OF HIS DEATH, and not of his resurrection.
    4. It is to be celebrated UNTIL he comes again.
    5. No man is WORTHY to partake of the cup of communion, but it can be done in a manner UNWORTHILY, but not "unworthy".

    Let me begin with this last point. No man is WORTHY of eternal life, so in that regards, everyone is unworthy. But Paul didn't say "unworthy", he said UNWORTHILY. He is referring to doing so for the wetting purpose. So what is the purpose of the communion table? Wait for it...

    To show the Lord's death, until he comes again.

    *[[Heb 9:15]] KJV* And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of DEATH, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

    The communion cup is a celebration of the Lord's DEARTH, not his resurrection. And Jesus said to do so until he comes again. What is Jesus bringing with him at that time?

    *[[2Ti 4:1]] KJV* I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

    He is bringing the kingdom. Looking again at
    HEB 9:15 we see that the new covenant was institited BY HIS DEATH, and not by his resurrection. His death institutes the new covenant, not his resurrection. His resurrection declares him to be the Son of God WITH POWER,

    *[[Rom 1:4]] KJV* And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

    I think I understand verses 16 and 17:

    *[[Heb 9:16]] KJV* For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
    17. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

    By partaking of communion, IN REMEMBRANCE OF CHRISTS DEATH, we show that the power of the first covenant and its force IS IN EFFECT. Let me say that again. We show the force and power and terms of the first covenant are in effect, UNTIL JESUS'S COMES AGAIN. SIN & DEATH will reign over the lives of ALL men, UNTIL CHRIST COMES AGAIN.

    Blessings
    The PuP

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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    Thank you, I'll be waiting for the Scripture that says the Gentiles are in the New Covenant, so far all I heard is flawed doctrine, I'll quote the twice repeated Scripture both in O.T. and N.T. that it is for Israel and Judah:

    Jer. 31:31, 32 « Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD »

    Heb. 8:8, 9 « For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will complete a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord ». Aristarkos
    1. The Covenant was established for the remission of sin for ALL that believe whether Jew or Gentile. Perhaps, this overview will help?

    2. Jesus is the Obedient Mediator. In contrast to the Davidic kings, the mediator of the new covenant is a new and obedient mediator… In him, the Davidic promise has reached its fulfilment… Out of the chopped-down tree of David’s line comes ‘The Lord Our Righteous Saviour’ (Jer. 33:16), who is the righteous Savior-King we need.

    3. Jesus is the real Solution to Sin. The old covenant gave us the sacrificial system and the priesthood. The failure of that covenant was its inability to make people right with God… By contrast, the new covenant now deals with the problem of human sin and guilt in relation to God. It now brings full forgiveness of sins Heb 10:17.

    4. The New Covenant has a Universal Scope. The Abrahamic covenant gave us the promise of blessing for the nations through Abraham’s seed and offspring. But the Abrahamic covenant on its own was not enough to bring about the universal blessing it promised because Abraham’s offspring themselves needed a redeemer. Through Christ, the universal intentions of this covenant are made possible, thus including the "nations" or believing Gentiles into the promise.

    5. A Regenerate Heart. God’s new covenant reverses Adam’s sin and rebellion, “including the effects of the curse God placed on humanity and the world because of Adam’s sin… The new covenant community are now a truly blessed and regenerated new people. That is what the Lord means when he says, ‘I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts’ (Jer. 31:33).

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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    1. The Covenant was established for the remission of sin for ALL that believe whether Jew or Gentile. Perhaps, this overview will help?

    2. Jesus is the Obedient Mediator. In contrast to the Davidic kings, the mediator of the new covenant is a new and obedient mediator… In him, the Davidic promise has reached its fulfilment… Out of the chopped-down tree of David’s line comes ‘The Lord Our Righteous Saviour’ (Jer. 33:16), who is the righteous Savior-King we need.
    We? Was David your king? Then you must be a circumcised Jew.

    3. Jesus is the real Solution to Sin. The old covenant gave us the sacrificial system and the priesthood. The failure of that covenant was its inability to make people right with God… By contrast, the new covenant now deals with the problem of human sin and guilt in relation to God. It now brings full forgiveness of sins Heb 10:17
    .

    Gave us the sacrificial system and priesthood? Not me, I'm a gentile.

    4. The New Covenant has a Universal Scope. The Abrahamic covenant gave us the promise of blessing for the nations through Abraham’s seed and offspring. But the Abrahamic covenant on its own was not enough to bring about the universal blessing it promised because Abraham’s offspring themselves needed a redeemer. Through Christ, the universal intentions of this covenant are made possible, thus including the "nations" or believing Gentiles into the promise.
    Now you are mixing up the Abrahamic covenant with the New Covenant?

    5. A Regenerate Heart. God’s new covenant reverses Adam’s sin and rebellion, “including the effects of the curse God placed on humanity and the world because of Adam’s sin… The new covenant community are now a truly blessed and regenerated new people. That is what the Lord means when he says, ‘I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts’ (Jer. 31:33).
    I have no idea what your talking about, this is not in my Bible.

    Aristarkos

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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    And here at last is the crux of our dispute. I'm so glad it has come out from your pen, and not my suspicions. Let me say it more than once just so that we can lay it to rest:
    1. There is NOT A SINGLE COVENANT THAT ADDRESSES, CONCERNS, SETS FORTH OR SHOWS THE WAY TO SALVATION AND/OR ETERNAL LIFE!
    2. The Covenants are CONTRACTS that lay down God's requirements of His People and which lay down REWARD for keeping them, and LOSS for not keeping them. That is, Covenants address WORKS!
    3. SALVATION, REBIRTH AND /OR ETERNAL LIFE ARE NOT HAD BY COVENANT!!!

    If you cannot comprehend this then try this little test. Take every Covenant that God ever made and lay down what God required of the men He addressed, and what the men He addressed would GAIN by obedience, and what the men He addressed would LOOSE if they broke the Covenant. To save you a whole thesis, let me narrow it down. The Covenant that the New Covenant REPLACES is the Covenant of Law at Sinai. To save you reading and noting five Books of the Bible, just take Leviticus Chapter 26 and Deuteronomy Chapter 28. They contain summaries of the blessings and penalties of the Covenant of Law at Sinai. See how many verses address SALVATION, ETERNAL LIFE and/or REBIRTH.

    Since your objections to my theory that the New Covenant is ...
    • ONLY for Israel
    • A Covenant of the same LAW
    • Is FUTURE
    • Is RATIFIED by Christ's blood BUT NOT YET INSTITUTED
    • Is INSTITUTED when the two Houses of Israel are resurrected, gathered to Canaan, and re-united

    ... is based on the above erroneous foundation that they address salvation, eternal life and/or rebirth, may I pass on answering your other answers. We have here a fundamental DIFFERENCE that, if not cleared up, will lead to reams of writing without a purpose. But, if you feel that you do not need to sort this big point out, let me know and I'll answer your further postings. Don't get me wrong. I do not duck them or evade your answers, but I'm sure you will agree, if the foundation is teetering, we had better fix that first.

    Here is your cue. Was Abraham counted righteous BEFORE or AFTER the Covenant of Promise (which required circumcision)? Romans 4:1-10 might help. You see, salvation, eternal life and rebirth are ALL HAD BY FAITH (Jn.1:12-13, 3:15; Eph.2:8). No Covenant is necessary! And so it is with the Church. No Covenant is necessary for Salvation, Eternal Life and/or Rebirth. The Covenant of Promise is by DEFAULT because we are IN Christ and he is Seed of Abraham (Gal.3:29). And the Covenant of Promise IS FOR THE OWNERSHIP OF THE EARTH (Rom.4:13). The Covenant of LAW is for CONTINUED OWNERSHIP OF CANAAN (Deut.4:23-27, 40, 5:33, 11:8-9, etc.). And that is why Jeremiah continues about Israel's posterity in Chapter 31 after introducing the New Covenant that would be effective and THAT WOULD KEEP THEM IN THE LAND. God HAD to institute this New Covenant OF LAW because in His Covenant of PROMISE, He had promised to give Israel Canaan "... for an everlasting possession" (Gen.17:8, 48:4)!
    I never said or even hinted that the Old Covenant provided salvation and eternal life. There's nothing in my post that supports this claim. Therefore, I can't take the blame for your false presumptions. For example, I said "That Israel rejected Christ doesn't mean there's a different pathway for them to eternal life!" Obviously, the Israel in mind here is the NT generation. Those who died before Christ came could not have rejected him since they didn't see him.

    If you insist that I associated the Sinai Covenant with salvation/eternal life, perhaps you should quote me directly? But if my supposed "erroneous foundation" is unfounded, perhaps we should revert to the actual erroneous argument on this discussion - the claim that Jesus ratified the NC on the cross, but suspended it until his return?

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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    We? Was David your king? Then you must be a circumcised Jew. the sacrificial system and priesthood? Not me, I'm a gentile.
    In Eph 2:11-22 Paul explained that Gentiles are now partakers of the Covenant of Promise.

    Now you are mixing up the Abrahamic covenant with the New Covenant?
    I showed the contrast between the Old and the New and highlighted how the new is better.

    I have no idea what your talking about, this is not in my Bible.
    The indwelling Spirit of God in the heart of believers causes a regenerate heart (Titus 3:5).

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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    Now you are mixing up the Abrahamic covenant with the New Covenant?
    No, you're just not understanding them. God swore by himself, not Abraham. Jesus (God) fulfilled it. You cannot deny and exclude gentiles, which Abraham was, from the covenant.

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