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Thread: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

  1. #481

    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    Thanks for the explanations and the links. I brought this topic up a year or so ago as I questioned it and started a thread on it. With all the explaining I still came away with them being the same thing.

    Now I am beginning to see the difference, so thank you for taking the time to answer my questions, it has really help me to see a difference in the two now. For me I always think there is a reason for how things are written in the Bible even when I don't understand it at the time. If Matthew had of been consistent in just using KofH it would be one thing, but he did refer to both terms which always made it puzzling to me. I think I understand the difference now.
    I do not really understand the difference but I do believe there is a difference. The same as when Paul will use, Jesus Christ and then turn it around and use Christ Jesus. There has to be a reason there. Another is in the prophets where, Israel, Jacob, house of Israel, House of Jacob. They can not all refer to the same thing, IMHO.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    Thanks for the explanations and the links. I brought this topic up a year or so ago as I questioned it and started a thread on it. With all the explaining I still came away with them being the same thing.

    Now I am beginning to see the difference, so thank you for taking the time to answer my questions, it has really help me to see a difference in the two now. For me I always think there is a reason for how things are written in the Bible even when I don't understand it at the time. If Matthew had of been consistent in just using KofH it would be one thing, but he did refer to both terms which always made it puzzling to me. I think I understand the difference now.
    I do not really understand the difference but I do believe there is a difference. The same as when Paul will use, Jesus Christ and then turn it around and use Christ Jesus. There has to be a reason there. Another is in the prophets where, Israel, Jacob, house of Israel, House of Jacob. They can not all refer to the same thing, IMHO.

  2. #482

    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Here is a thought question. relative to KH and KOG not being the same.

    Relative to say Daniel 2:44,45 Dan 7:13,14 and Rev 11:15 would it be fair to say that beginning with the appearing of Christ and his kingdom, the ruling family will be the Kingdom of God, ruling the Kingdom of Heaven.

    I just saw something else interesting, Compare:

    the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, Dan 2:45
    But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Hebrews 9:11
    For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 3 Cor 5:1

    Christ and the church, then in spiritual bodies, and or, in spiritual body, a spiritual nation, kingdom?

  3. #483
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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    The same as when Paul will use, Jesus Christ and then turn it around and use Christ Jesus. There has to be a reason there.
    Maybe he is referring to two different people.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  4. #484
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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    Here is a thought question. relative to KH and KOG not being the same.

    Relative to say Daniel 2:44,45 Dan 7:13,14 and Rev 11:15 would it be fair to say that beginning with the appearing of Christ and his kingdom, the ruling family will be the Kingdom of God, ruling the Kingdom of Heaven.

    I just saw something else interesting, Compare:

    the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, Dan 2:45
    But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Hebrews 9:11
    For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 3 Cor 5:1

    Christ and the church, then in spiritual bodies, and or, in spiritual body, a spiritual nation, kingdom?
    Yes. Which is why its says we rule and reign with him a thousand years. As believers we have authority over the koh now, BTW. Heal sickness and disease, change events, stop something from happening etc.

  5. #485
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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    I found this post of mine from 7/2018
    https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...97#post3453597
    "They are phrases used to describe The Kingdom. The Kingdom is physical and spiritual, what we see and don't see. God decided the physical kingdom would be here, on earth. That is the kingdom of heaven, or as Daniel puts it, the kingdom under the whole heaven. This is why Matthew states the implementation of the physical kingdom provides relief to the oppressed and persecuted. This is not said of the kingdom of God. It provides relief through God's spiritual provision. It does not say seek the kingdom of heaven first and your needs will be provided, and it doesn't say the implementation of the kingdom of God relieves you of your oppressors.

    There are similarities and differences found in the spiritual and physical. There are earthy bodies and spiritual bodies that when put side by side it would be said they are similar, but they are also different. You wouldn't see the difference with your natural eye, but the differences are there none the less. So it is with The Kingdom. When you read about the kingdom of heaven you are reading about what is taking place in the natural on earth, where God decided to have his kingdom, which is both natural and spiritual. When you read about the kingdom of God you are reading about what is taking place in a spiritual sense. Things can effect the spiritual and the natural at the same time.

    It's easy to see why some think the phrases are synonymous and others don't. A closer look yields balance, and allows for both similarities and differences in the natural and spiritual kingdom in which we live. The different phrases help us understand The Kingdom in which we live and desire to live for eternity."
    Ok lets take the Kingdom...I am still not quite understanding the way you are applying this with the Lords prayer.. so applying this to the Lords prayer....”thy kingdom come” are we basically asking then for both KH and KG to come as in one Kingdom? Where it says then...thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven....are we then asking for the KH to be like the KG?

    I hope this makes sense as to what I am asking in your understanding.

  6. #486

    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Yes. Which is why its says we rule and reign with him a thousand years. As believers we have authority over the koh now, BTW. Heal sickness and disease, change events, stop something from happening etc.
    Through Prayer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Yes. Which is why its says we rule and reign with him a thousand years. As believers we have authority over the koh now, BTW. Heal sickness and disease, change events, stop something from happening etc.
    Through Prayer?

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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Just for the record I didn't make the argument here that you attribute to me. Honestly you posted this reply on every single person, but from what i understand most people do Not believe that the NJ comes at the same time as Jesus, most who read Rev 19-21 Will see that Jesus comes first sets up his Rule for 1k Years (THis is the KoH), the NJ is not the Millenial Kingdom, the NJ comes after the MK and is a part of the NHNE when Heaven and Earth become one.

    So none of the post where you claim the NJ = MK is gonna get any agreemnent sadly.
    When the NHNE is finally ushered in after the 1000 years is over, the GWTJ would have occurred meaning that no wicked and unrighteous person will be left on earth. For would have been cast into the lake of fire. But what does scripture say about the New Jerusalem and its timeline? John saw it coming down in Rev 21 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

    1. In Rev 21:12 we are told that the city has twelve gates guarded by 12 angels representing the 12 Tribes of Israel.
    2. The saved will be in the city (NJ) v-24.
    3. But verses 26-27 speak of the abominable nations who will not be allowed in.

    This clearly proves that the NJ will come down during the MK, not after because if it comes when you claim, the "abominable nations" will no more exist. Although Jesus will comes down first.

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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Like I, said the video didn't say that Adam and Eve sat on a throne, the throne in the video represented the idea of Dominion.
    The fact you are relying on the views expressed in a video by an unknown makes it more compelling for me not to pursue this further. Until you can present your own thoughts and opinion so that when you are called out for an error, you won't claim "hey, it's not my opinion...it's the video"!

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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Then it is clear your case is faulty, there is no mention in Rev 20 (when the Millenial Kingdom is set up) that the NJ comes also, clearly, the NJ comes after the GWTJ. So since none of us agree with the bolded portion of your argument we do not accept it as proof. This is why i say stop trying to offer proof of things, you're not here to offer proofs just your opinion.

    Rev 20:2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

    4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

    Where do you see any mention of the NJ coming during this Thousand Years?

    It is clear from Rev 21 that the NJ comes After the NHNE

    Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.


    I hope you see why these passages mean we cannot except your arguments as proof of anything.

    The KoH = MK = The Establishment of Christ Reign on Earth. Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”
    I have already provided scriptural proof in post #487 that shows that the NJ will be on earth during the MK. When you say "none of us agrees with the bolded portion" I wonder who are the "us" or 'they'? Shouldn't you speak for yourself rather than crying for help?

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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Sorry the video didn't claim Adam and Eve had a thone in the Garden, its sad that you can't understand how they used the throne to express dominion. Just like they used crowns to express rulership, as far as i can see there theolgy was not faulty. But actually it is all vetted and supported with scholar level material that has been peer-reviewed.
    Supported and vetted with scholar level material...and peer-reviewed, really? Pray, tell, where did this supposed peer-review take place; in your kitchen or garage perhaps? You want your readers to believe that a video you copied from YouTube was peer-reviewed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    The only way that you can Debate with someone is to interact with thier position. Sometimes you get to the point where your argument will become if you don't agree with me position you need, more study,prayer, divine inspiration, or divine intervention. The fact is many of us can read these bible passages and come to different theolgy or views. Just because you personally believe something does not mean it's the truth, even if in your own head your agruments are "proof".
    Your problem is that you like to attack me instead of my position especially when you have no sound scriptural basis to counter.

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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I disagree, I believe this is exactly what they expected. So you believe all the Jews expected from Messiah was to free them from Rome is that the full extent of what the Jews believe about Messiah in your view?
    Yes, they wanted an independent Jewish nation without Roman control where there will be righteousness.

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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    When the NHNE is finally ushered in after the 1000 years is over, the GWTJ would have occurred meaning that no wicked and unrighteous person will be left on earth. For would have been cast into the lake of fire. But what does scripture say about the New Jerusalem and its timeline? John saw it coming down in Rev 21 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

    1. In Rev 21:12 we are told that the city has twelve gates guarded by 12 angels representing the 12 Tribes of Israel.
    2. The saved will be in the city (NJ) v-24.
    3. But verses 26-27 speak of the abominable nations who will not be allowed in.

    This clearly proves that the NJ will come down during the MK, not after because if it comes when you claim, the "abominable nations" will no more exist. Although Jesus will comes down first.
    Sorry this isn't proof, all you are offering is someone personal interpretation of Rev 21:26-27 but i can think of multiple explantions that do not follow this line of Reasoning. I what world is someones opinion on passages considered proof of anything? A similar statement is made in Rev 22:14 niether passage in any way require us to believe that the NJ came down from heaven before the NHNE. Sorry if you believe they do, but your personal understanding of why this belief is nessary is not proof of anything.

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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I have already provided scriptural proof in post #487 that shows that the NJ will be on earth during the MK. When you say "none of us agrees with the bolded portion" I wonder who are the "us" or 'they'? Shouldn't you speak for yourself rather than crying for help?
    The all came out and said they didn't agree when i said none of us and they I meant the specific people currently arguing this debate, Noeb, DWM, Ewq, I'm sure Walls would say the same, the fact is you didn't believe this either, I saw the post where you excepted this position from FHG, the fact is that line of reasoning is unnecessary, it is easy to understand why the wicked nations do not enter the NJ without changing up the timeline established in Rev 20-21 people have been able to do it for centuries, when did FHG personal position become proof? The day you adpoted it?

    No one here in this thread that I've seen believes your timeline for the arrival of the NJ is accurate, I was just trying to let you know that presenting it will not be helpful or lead to any meaningful agreements.

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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Well, let me put it to you like this: do you believe that everyone who will exist in the earthly MK will have "come down from Heaven" (having been previously raptured and, with that, also "changed/glorified/perfected")? Or do you believe ppl in mortal bodies will enter the time period of the MK (able to bear children/reproduce/have offspring)? And if so, of those still-living "mortals," do you believe some will be yet "unsaved" (upon entering that time period), or that only "saints" will enter that time period?
    Very good question: the way I see it, the MK will be limited to Jerusalem. But the wicked unsaved mortals who survive the GT will dwell in the rest of the earth/world like today. They are called the "nations" (Rev 21:27). They will marry and reproduce, some of their offsprings may accept Christ and be saved while the majority will not. The unbelieving will be those referred to Gog and Magog whom Satan will convince after his release to surround the holy city (New Jerusalem) Rev 20:8-9.

    I should emphasis IMHO that when the MK is referenced, one should understand that it denotes the fenced 'holy city' that comes down from above Rev 21:10-24 where Christ reigns with his saints. It doesn't include anywhere else outside Jerusalem where unsaved mortals and reprobates live.

    That said, I also accept that there is a possibility that there will be saved mortals who will also live in the NJ and interact with the resurrected and raptured saints. In fact, I'm inclined to believe this is a FACT, especially those nurtured and protected in the desert until Jesus returns. How the saved mortals and those already in immortal and spiritual bodies will interact is a logistic not yet clear to me and many others, I suspect.

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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Supported and vetted with scholar level material...and peer-reviewed, really? Pray, tell, where did this supposed peer-review take place; in your kitchen or garage perhaps? You want your readers to believe that a video you copied from YouTube was peer-reviewed?
    It is amusing to me how you are attacking a source because you personally do not want to "understand" what they're saying because it's not your personal view, but if you are really interested in this answer just check out there website yourself not like it's my job to defend them. https://thebibleproject.com/team/

    One of the creators has a Ph.D. in Semitic Languages and Biblical Studies, he is a real life biblical scholar, but go ahead attack people trying to spread the word because it doesn't support your current position.



    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Your problem is that you like to attack me instead of my position especially when you have no sound scriptural basis to counter.
    I don't see any instance where I attacked you personally. If you believe this is the case please send me specific examples and I will apologize and delete them(but i'm pretty sure you don't have any and will end up just pretending you never accused me of this).

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