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Thread: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

  1. #76
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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I read them all I honestly see no biblical passages to support your assertions that the Church is part of the New Covenant. Do you mind just giving the references for the prooftexts that you believe support your belief? Even your opening to this thread states that most of your proof-text is in the book of Hebrews (a book specifically addressed to the Hebrews, not the Church).
    Welcome back, JLU.

    There are no scriptures that says that the NC is with the church as it currently stands because,

    1. The current church, consists of all, past present and future, who will inherit the kingdom of God, Jews & Gentiles alike. The return of Jesus coincides with the establishment of the kingdom. And that will not take place UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles has come in AND Israel's blindness is removed.
    2. Until the time of Jacobs trouble, IN THOSE DAYS, is the time when the blindness will be removed.
    3. It is with the WHOLE house of Israel and not just the Gentiles who constitute the multitude of nations of the descendents of Ephraim.
    4. The NC was instituted by the death of Christ, and not his resurrection. The communion cup is taken in remembrance of his death and is to be done UNTIL Jesus comes back.
    5. The unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Trivalee and others cannot give you the connection between the church and the NC because they do not understand that we are but a minority part of the whole house of Israel.

    Blessings
    The PuP

  2. #77
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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I read them all I honestly see no biblical passages to support your assertions that the Church is part of the New Covenant. Do you mind just giving the references for the prooftexts that you believe support your belief? Even your opening to this thread states that most of your proof-text is in the book of Hebrews (a book specifically addressed to the Hebrews, not the Church).
    Your claim that the Book of Hebrews did not address the church show how much you misunderstand the New Covenant. The Book of Hebrews was written to Jewish believers and since Gal 3:27-28 says there's no Jew or Gentile (tribe and ethnicity no longer counts) for those who are baptized in Christ, it makes no sense to deny that Hebrews was written to the Church.

    The Old Covenant was based on animal sacrifice for atonement Heb 9:12-13. Unfortunately, this system was ineffective on account of its repetitive nature. Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. To redress this weakness (Heb 7:18), God, through Jeremiah 31, promised a new and better covenant capable of a one-off sacrifice for atonement and remission of sin.

    According to Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission - sin cannot be purged without the shedding of blood. Therefore, what the blood of animals could not do, Jesus used his sinless blood as substitution.

    [I]Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
    Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified [All believers whether Jew or Gentile].
    Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,[this was fulfilled at Pentecost, writing God's law in our hearts is being fulfilled by the indwelling Spirit of God in the hearts of believers]
    Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
    Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Notice that the New Covenant is associated with the forgiveness of sins? So tell me, is it only Israel and Judah that in sin?[/I

    To crown it all, the writer says in Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Notice the present tense, NOW i.e at the time the epistle was written, Jesus brought in an "excellent ministry" and thereby became the "mediator of a better covenant" - that is the New Covenant. It is not future or in the millennium as claimed.

    I believe I have satisfactorily used scripture to prove that the NC is NOW operative contrary to those who claim it is the future. Although, those that claim it's future are yet to explain whether Christ will die a second time because death and blood is the cornerstone of the New Covenant. Now, allow me to provide further proof that even though, the Gentiles were not mentioned by Jeremiah, they are nonetheless partakers of the NC.

    In Ephesians 2, Paul made a persuasive case that although Genitals were hitherto, aliens, removed from the commonwealth of Israel but now by his death, Jesus has removed the partition separating the believing Jew and Gentile, thus making us ONE. The key word being "believers in Christ" because the unbelieving Jew has no use for the NC.

    Here are the passages:

    Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

    12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;


    Notice that v-12 says that Gentiles were formerly strangers from the covenants [plural] of promise and v-13 by Christ' sacrifice and blood, we are now made nigh to partake of the promise?

  3. #78
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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Your claim that the Book of Hebrews did not address the church show how much you misunderstand the New Covenant. The Book of Hebrews was written to Jewish believers and since Gal 3:27-28 says there's no Jew or Gentile (tribe and ethnicity no longer counts) for those who are baptized in Christ, it makes no sense to deny that Hebrews was written to the Church.
    Let's not start this discussion with misreads that lead to insults. I said the book of Hebrews was not addressed to the "Church" not - it does not address the church-
    All of the letters of Paul were addressed to someone. For example. (1 Thess 1) Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, "unto the church of the Thessalonians".


    We know from the first chapter in Hebrews that the book is Addressed to people whose ancestors heard from the prophets.


    Hebrews 1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.


    This should exclude all members whose ancestors were not spoken to by the prophets or the Son(Jesus) directly as an audience member who this letter was about.


    Do you believe that the readers of this letter were familiar with Galatians 3:27-28? Should they have factored that passage in when trying to understand the message of our writer here in Hebrews? Can someone come to your doctrines conclusions without Galatians 3:27-28 as a contemporary source?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The Old Covenant was based on animal sacrifice for atonement Heb 9:12-13. Unfortunately, this system was ineffective on account of its repetitive nature. Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. To redress this weakness (Heb 7:18), God, through Jeremiah 31, promised a new and better covenant capable of a one-off sacrifice for atonement and remission of sin.


    According to Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission - sin cannot be purged without the shedding of blood. Therefore, what the blood of animals could not do, Jesus used his sinless blood as substitution.


    [I]Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
    Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified [All believers whether Jew or Gentile].
    Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,[this was fulfilled at Pentecost, writing God's law in our hearts is being fulfilled by the indwelling Spirit of God in the hearts of believers]
    Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
    Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Notice that the New Covenant is associated with the forgiveness of sins? So tell me, is it only Israel and Judah that in sin?[/I
    Does your doctrine ignore the role of the Land in the Old Covenant?




    Do you believe that anything in the new Covenant is associated with the Holy Land or the city of Jerusalem?


    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    To crown it all, the writer says in Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Notice the present tense, NOW i.e at the time the epistle was written, Jesus brought in an "excellent ministry" and thereby became the "mediator of a better covenant" - that is the New Covenant. It is not future or in the millennium as claimed.
    Correct this passage this be the easiest one for you to get he is now a Mediator of a better Covenant.


    The keyword is Mediator.


    What is the role of a Mediator?


    Do you believe that *now* as of *Today* that Jesus no longer acts as the Mediator?


    In your doctrine when did Jesus stop acting as Mediator?


    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I believe I have satisfactorily used scripture to prove that the NC is NOW operative contrary to those who claim it is the future.
    At this point, you have Proven With Scripture that Jesus is the MEDIATOR.

    Now please proof with scripture that Jesus no longer acts as Mediator because now the New Covenant is as you state NOW OPERATIVE.

    Or does your doctrine teach that Jesus is still Mediator of the New Covenant even though it is active??

  4. #79
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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    It's marvelous to watch. Our brother Jesuslovesus joins the discussion late, but honors the various posters in reading their posts. He puts forward a simple question. Show me the verses (indulge me) that state that the New Covenant is made with the Church. It only requires two such verses. What follows is genuine brothers doing everything in their power to avoid indulging Jesuslovesus. You would think that if these brothers had the verses, they would save themselves all sorts of twisting and turning, and post the verses. Like this; Jeremiah, writing on the cusp of Judah's defeat and deportation by Nebuchadnezzar, says in 31:31-33

    31 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
    32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
    33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."


    The context is so obvious in these verses - COMBINED Israel who came out of Egypt. Tracking backwards, what do the verses give as a context?

    27 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
    28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.
    29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
    30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge."


    And then tracking forward in verses 36-37 we find the context AGAIN is Israel.

    36 "If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
    37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD."


    And then we find in the grand Chapter of Israel's revival, Ezekiel 37, in verses 15-28 ,

    15 "The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
    16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
    ...
    21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
    22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
    ...
    25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
    26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
    ... ."


    But what do we hear from Trivalee and co.? Straight talking verses like these for the Church? NO! We hear how we don't understand. We are too narrow. We are too literal. We are informed that there is HIDDEN revelation that the New Covenant of Law is made with the Church. Trivalee, Noeb and co., can only say that they have no verses to indulge Jesuslovesus. But what has the Lord of the universe said? "These (in Berea) were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so" (Acts 17:11). Those brothers who demand SCRIPTURE are narrow and blind by the vote of some, but our God say we are "more noble"! We have DEMANDED Scripture, and what do we get? Innuendo, allusions to this and that, accusations and insults! But scripture .... - NONE!

    They repeatedly interchange that Covenant of Promise with Abraham with a Covenant of Law made 430 years later. They continually deny God's Words that;
    1. The New Covenant is one of Law
    2. The New Covenant is made with the combined House of Israel WHEN it is ONE NATION again
    3. The First Covenant of Law was NOT for SALVATION but to guarantee Israel's continued occupancy of the Land of Canaan
    4. The New Covenant of Law is NOT for SALVATION but that Israel may occupy Canaan "as an everlasting possession"
    5. The New Covenant is ONLY RATIFIED at Golgotha and will ONLY BE INSTITUTED "in that day" when Ezekiel 37 takes place

    They CANNOT ;
    • provide verses like Jeremiah 31:31-33 that DIRECTLY and PLAINLY state that the New Covenant is made with the Church
    • provide verses for their theory that the New Covenant is made with the Church
    • provide the Conditions of this new Contract for the Church

    If you look at their postings as they try to EXPLAIN the lack of scripture for their thesis, you would think that it would be so much shorter, concise and TRUTHFUL if they POSTED SCRIPTURES LIKE JEREMIAH 31:31, BUT WHICH INCLUDE THE CHURCH! Jesuslovesus just asked for scripture. What does he get? May the reader judge.

  5. #80
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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    It's marvelous to watch. Our brother Jesuslovesus joins the discussion late, but honors the various posters in reading their posts. He puts forward a simple question. Show me the verses (indulge me) that state that the New Covenant is made with the Church. It only requires two such verses.
    Two? Why two? and please don't say in the mouth of two/three witnesses.....which doesn't apply to scripture and establishing doctrine. I gave 1Cor 11. Paul does not single out Jew or Gentile in his normal fashion. He is not telling them to just merely remember something they are not participants in.

  6. #81
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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    They repeatedly interchange that Covenant of Promise with Abraham with a Covenant of Law made 430 years later.
    What a joke. Not once did I do this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    They continually deny God's Words that;[*]The New Covenant is one of Law
    I said it is a covenant of law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    [*]The New Covenant is made with the combined House of Israel WHEN it is ONE NATION again
    I did not deny this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    [*]The First Covenant of Law was NOT for SALVATION but to guarantee Israel's continued occupancy of the Land of Canaan
    I did not deny this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    [*]The New Covenant of Law is NOT for SALVATION but that Israel may occupy Canaan "as an everlasting possession"
    I did not deny this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    [*]The New Covenant is ONLY RATIFIED at Golgotha and will ONLY BE INSTITUTED "in that day" when Ezekiel 37 takes place
    I didn't address this. Seemed a waste of time, since you made it up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    They CANNOT ;[*]provide verses like Jeremiah 31:31-33 that DIRECTLY and PLAINLY state that the New Covenant is made with the Church[*]provide verses for their theory that the New Covenant is made with the Church[*]provide the Conditions of this new Contract for the Church
    I did indeed.

    Don't lump me in with another poster, ignoring what I have said, just because I haven't spent any time disagreeing with them.

  7. #82
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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    [*]The New Covenant of Law is NOT for SALVATION but that Israel may occupy Canaan "as an everlasting possession"
    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb
    I did not deny this.
    Correction. I did not address this. Clearly it is for salvation for without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin and the blood of the NC is the blood for the remission of sin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    [*]The New Covenant of Law is NOT for SALVATION but that Israel may occupy Canaan "as an everlasting possession"
    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb
    I did not deny this.
    Correction. I did not address this. Clearly it is for salvation for without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin and the blood of the NC is the blood for the remission of sin.

  8. #83
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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    It's marvelous to watch. Our brother Jesuslovesus joins the discussion late, but honors the various posters in reading their posts. He puts forward a simple question. Show me the verses (indulge me) that state that the New Covenant is made with the Church. It only requires two such verses.

    [...]
    Wonderful post Walls, but I already asked for it in post #39 and all I got was innuendo and misinterpretation of Scripture.

    Trivalee and co. got egg all over their face.

    Aristarkos

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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Sorry, but y'all are the ones spouting this new doctrine of men.

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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    2Corinthians 3 and Romans 9 makes it clear as a bell as well.

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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    2Corinthians 3 and Romans 9 makes it clear as a bell as well.
    Sorry, but 2 Cor 3 shows that it is not the letter of the law that is written on our hearts, but it is the epistle of Christ, ala the spirit of Christ, that is written on the heart:

    *[[2Co 3:2]] KJV* Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
    3. Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart...
    *[[2Co 3:6]] KJV* Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

    Romans 9 reiterates that the promised inheritance is that which is given to the "called of God", Jews AND Gentiles. Paul uses Hosea to show the time of this inheritance, given to the called, where they shall be called "the children of God", will take place in the valley of Jezreel, when the houses of Israel and Judah will be reunited under one king.

    *[[Rom 9:24]] KJV* Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
    25. As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
    26. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

    *[[Hos 1:11]] KJV* Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel...
    *[[Hos 2:16]] KJV* And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali.
    17. For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.
    18. And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.
    19. And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.

    Blessings
    The PuP

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    2Corinthians 3 and Romans 9 makes it clear as a bell as well.
    Sorry, but 2 Cor 3 shows that it is not the letter of the law that is written on our hearts, but it is the epistle of Christ, ala the spirit of Christ, that is written on the heart:

    *[[2Co 3:2]] KJV* Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
    3. Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart...
    *[[2Co 3:6]] KJV* Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

    Romans 9 reiterates that the promised inheritance is that which is given to the "called of God", Jews AND Gentiles. Paul uses Hosea to show the time of this inheritance, given to the called, where they shall be called "the children of God", will take place in the valley of Jezreel, when the houses of Israel and Judah will be reunited under one king.

    *[[Rom 9:24]] KJV* Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
    25. As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
    26. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

    *[[Hos 1:11]] KJV* Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel...
    *[[Hos 2:16]] KJV* And it shall be at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali.
    17. For I will take away the names of Baalim out of her mouth, and they shall no more be remembered by their name.
    18. And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.
    19. And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.

    Blessings
    The PuP

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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    "made us able ministers of the new testament"? Who's he talking to and what is he talking about? Is there a distinction made towards Israel only, or is he talking to Jew and Gentile? "Christ's gospel" "in them that are saved" " savour of his knowledge" "savour of life" "speak we in Christ" all synonymous with "the new testament".

    Romans 8-11 clearly tells us Christ fulfilled what was given to Israel and Gentiles are included, which the OT made clear as well. We have received the Spirit of adoption and the law in our hearts. He is our Father, not going to be.

    "made us able ministers of the new testament"? Who's he talking to and what is he talking about? Is there a distinction made towards Israel only, or is he talking to Jew and Gentile? "Christ's gospel" "in them that are saved" " savour of his knowledge" "savour of life" "speak we in Christ" all synonymous with "the new testament".

    Romans 8-11 clearly tells us Christ fulfilled what was given to Israel and Gentiles are included, which the OT made clear as well. We have received the Spirit of adoption and the law in our hearts. He is our Father, not going to be.

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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    "made us able ministers of the new testament"? Who's he talking to and what is he talking about? Is there a distinction made towards Israel only, or is he talking to Jew and Gentile? "Christ's gospel" "in them that are saved" " savour of his knowledge" "savour of life" "speak we in Christ" all synonymous with "the new testament".

    Romans 8-11 clearly tells us Christ fulfilled what was given to Israel and Gentiles are included, which the OT made clear as well. We have received the Spirit of adoption and the law in our hearts. He is our Father, not going to be.
    I addressed this scripture in a previous posting. The word rendered "ministers" is "diakonos" in the Greek. It means one who "runs errands", "an attendant" (of menial duties)", that is "an ADMINISTRATOR".

    The Apostles were given a special duty. They were selected to sit on thrones judging the 12 Tribes of Israel in the Millennium (Matt.19:28, Lk.22:30). They, being Christians, are not under Law. But the People they govern will be. So although they are not subject to Law they will have to make sure, as kings over Israelites, that the Law of the New Covenant is kept. So they become "attendants", or "servants of menial tasks" or "administrators". 2nd Corinthians 3:6 therefore STRENGTHENS the argument that (i) the Church is free of the Law, (ii) the Law has not passed away for Israel, and (iii) Israel, being under the New Covenant in the Millennium are under Law. And what is even more pertinent is that the Law spoken of that the Apostles are made "administrators" of, IS THE LAW OF MOSES. The context of that verse is "the children of Israel" - NOT the Church.

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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Correction. I did not address this. Clearly it is for salvation for without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin and the blood of the NC is the blood for the remission of sin.



    Correction. I did not address this. Clearly it is for salvation for without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin and the blood of the NC is the blood for the remission of sin.
    You, and others, are famous for ignoring the grammar and adding to scripture. It does NOT READ, "this is the New Covenant for the remission of sins". It reads in Matthew 26:28 and Mark 14:24 severally;
    28 For this is my blood (i) of the new testament, which (ii) is shed for many for the remission of sins.
    24 And he said unto them, This is my blood (i) of the new testament, which (ii) is shed for many.


    TWO things are reveled. (i) The blood is that of the new Testament, and (ii) The blood is shed for many for the remission of sins. This clearly indicates that the blood has at least TWO FUNCTIONS. In Exodus 24:1-8 Moses and the seventy Elders go up "to the Lord". They, with one voice, agree to the terms of the Covenant of Law (v.3). Then Israelites slaughter Burnt and Peace Offerings (v.5). Then Moses takes the blood and sprinkles it on the newly built altar and twelve pillars. Then Moses reads the whole Covenant, the terms of which is the Law. And then says in verse 8; "And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words." So, I ask you. WHICH SIN AND SINS DID THIS BLOOD COVER? The answer is "NONE"! They were "BURNT Offerings" and "PEACE Offerings", not SIN and TRESPASS Offerings. They did not deal with a single sin. The blood that Moses sprinkled was RATIFICATION OF THE COVENANT ONLY!

    Now, when we come to Christ's death, He is so all-encompassing, and His death is all-encompassing, and His blood does MULTIPLE things. He is the fulfillment of ALL the Offerings. His blood is to answer Abel's blood that holds the earth under curse (Gen.4:10-12; Heb.12:24). His blood "washes" (Rev.1:5). His blood clears the conscience (Heb.9:14). His blood remits sin (singular - Jn.1:29). His blood remits trespasses (plural - 1st Jn.2:2). These are all SEPARATE THINGS. And one of the SEPARATE things is that it RATIFIES the New Covenant WITH ISRAEL.

    So, both Luke 22:20 1 Corinthians 11:25 say severally;
    20 "Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you."
    25 "After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me."

    Note the grammar. The CUP is the New Testament IN HIS BLOOD. That is ONE THING. The the verse goes and says (by implication) "This SAME Blood, which settles the New Covenant, IS ALSO SHED FOR YOU! - A SECOND THING. And what does verse 25 say? Does it say "drink of this cup to REMEMBER the New Covenant? NO! It says "as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of ME"

    At no time does the Lord Jesus, in any of the above verses, say that
    1. the Disciples are subject to the New Covenant
    2. the Disciples are subject to "God's Law"
    3. the New Covenant is in force! Why would He say that when He has, by His Holy Spirit, already declared that "AFTER those days He will make a New Covenant with Israel. And the "days" He means are the "days" of the Church age for Acts 15:14-16 reveals the SEQUENCE:

    14 "Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
    15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
    16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:"

    The New Covenant is with Israel ONLY. It is a Covenant of LAW. It is RATIFIED on Golgotha. It is INSTITUTED "AFTER" the Church age is complete when Israel are ONE NATION again as they were under David. The New Covenant has NOTHING to do with salvation and Eternal Life. It is so that Israel are found worthy to REMAIN in their Land and not be thrown out again.

  15. #90
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    Re: Has the New Covenant started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Let's not start this discussion with misreads that lead to insults. I said the book of Hebrews was not addressed to the "Church" not - it does not address the church-All of the letters of Paul were addressed to someone. For example. (1 Thess 1) Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, "unto the church of the Thessalonians".

    We know from the first chapter in Hebrews that the book is Addressed to people whose ancestors heard from the prophets. Hebrews 1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

    This should exclude all members whose ancestors were not spoken to by the prophets or the Son(Jesus) directly as an audience member who this letter was about. Do you believe that the readers of this letter were familiar with Galatians 3:27-28? Should they have factored that passage in when trying to understand the message of our writer here in Hebrews? Can someone come to your doctrines conclusions without Galatians 3:27-28 as a contemporary source?

    Where is the insult?
    Do you believe that Paul who wrote Hebrews went out of his way to address those who have not accepted Jesus?
    I don't know any Christian who believes that Hebrews was written to unbelieving Jews.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Does your doctrine ignore the role of the Land in the Old Covenant? Do you believe that anything in the new Covenant is associated with the Holy Land or the city of Jerusalem?
    The Land promised to Abraham is NOT associated with the New Covenant.

    Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

    32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

    33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    Please show me where "Land" is mentioned in relation to the New Covenant?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Correct this passage this be the easiest one for you to get he is now a Mediator of a better Covenant. The keyword is Mediator. What is the role of a Mediator? Do you believe that *now* as of *Today* that Jesus no longer acts as the Mediator?
    Since his death, Jesus has become our mediator and will continue to do so while we remain in sinful flesh until we receive immortality.

    1 Tim 1:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    I take it you have nothing substantial to refute my post? You have not provided a single scripture or even an articulated thought worth considering to challenge my position. But what I can't deny is that it's your prerogative to fudge the topic since you asked me what a Mediator is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    [/FONT][/COLOR] [/FONT][/COLOR]At this point, you have Proven With Scripture that Jesus is the MEDIATOR. Now please proof with scripture that Jesus no longer acts as Mediator because now the New Covenant is as you state NOW OPERATIVE. Or does your doctrine teach that Jesus is still Mediator of the New Covenant even though it is active??
    Funny you ask me to "prove with scripture" when you have not provided any. I'm not sure whether you're serious or making fun of this discussion? But whatever is the case, please see above.

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