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Thread: Is Ezekiel's vision the woman in Rev 12 being nourished in the wilderness

  1. #16
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    Re: Is Ezekiel's vision the woman in Rev 12 being nourished in the wilderness

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    If one sees no millennium then Ezekiel's temple becomes the one in which the beast sits. Even the scriptures say the beasts sits in the temple OF GOD.

    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

    Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
    I guess if you don't believe that Christ will reign for a thousand years on earth, you will find no reason for Ezekiel's Temple. It could NOT be the Temple that the Beast occupies because the Beast STOPS the oblations. In Ezekiel's Temple they continues.


    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Perhaps your not understanding my thought. What I am saying is the city itself in heaven which does comes to earth in a NHNE also comes down before this event as described by the woman coming to earth in Rev 12. Now the city and the temple are two different buildings. I believe the city (woman) is made without hands with the temple being made by the followers of the beast ie the image of the beast. I think thus the reason for such detail for those to replicate it.


    So question, if there is no millennium then where do you put Ezekiel's vision?
    I would have to scrap 30 + years of studying the Bible I guess. The Second Coming of our Lord Jesus is connected with about DOUBLE the prophecies of His FIRST COMING. And if He does come as predicted He will live somewhere. I guess that in the end your question is moot for me. Sorry I can't speculate for you. Christ's return to earth as a conquering King, His setting up of His Kingdom on earth and His physical presence on earth are so one with my being that I cannot imagine how to answer you. Sorry brother.

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    Re: Is Ezekiel's vision the woman in Rev 12 being nourished in the wilderness

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I guess if you don't believe that Christ will reign for a thousand years on earth, you will find no reason for Ezekiel's Temple.
    And as I point out this is where many whom do not believe the millennium subscribe. Thus to them it was a "could have been" I guess and a waste of 8 chapters. Though I see no millennium like many I do not think it is a waste. It is either the actual temple in heaven or one replicated for the beast to sit.


    It could NOT be the Temple that the Beast occupies because the Beast STOPS the oblations. In Ezekiel's Temple they continues.
    If you see this in the millennium then there does come a point in the vision whereby the oblation must cease by Christ. Likewise the beast claiming to be Christ does the same.

    So mute argument.

    I would have to scrap 30 + years of studying the Bible I guess. The Second Coming of our Lord Jesus is connected with about DOUBLE the prophecies of His FIRST COMING. And if He does come as predicted He will live somewhere. I guess that in the end your question is moot for me. Sorry I can't speculate for you. Christ's return to earth as a conquering King, His setting up of His Kingdom on earth and His physical presence on earth are so one with my being that I cannot imagine how to answer you. Sorry brother.
    It will be the same woman. What I am saying is the woman in the Rev 12 is the same in Rev 17 and is the same in Rev 21. One woman whom goes from purity, whoredom, renewed

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    Re: Is Ezekiel's vision the woman in Rev 12 being nourished in the wilderness

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    12 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman



    It is a sign of something tangible. Dragon is Satan, woman = a city

    First the dragon is cast down to the earth wherein he cast out water after her, thus she is on earth.



    3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman

    So this woman is in not any actual place?

    IS 14
    16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
    17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

    Scriptures even say this world becomes a wilderness.
    Yes I agree she is on the earth but she was never in heaven as John just sees a sign in heaven it is a symbolic vision

    She is Israel in three forms

    Israel
    Mary
    Jerusalem

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    Re: Is Ezekiel's vision the woman in Rev 12 being nourished in the wilderness

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Yes. This is one school of thought. I could not subscribe to it because of the following:
    There are actually THREE distinct Temples ON EARTH in the Bible.
    1. The First is the Tabernacle of the Wilderness which was replaced by a fixed abode by Solomon an later by Zerubbabel. This is God's physical abode on earth in the midst of Israel.
    2. The Second is the Body of Christ. This our Lord introduces in John Chapter 2. If we consider that God wanted man to eat of the Tree of Life, in which case the fruit of this divine Tree would be IN and ONE with he man who ate it, this abode is the one that God originally wanted. Added to this, our Lord Jesus, conceived by the Holy Spirit, did not possess the fallen nature of Adam and so He was a "Holy" House of God (Lk.1:35). Now New Jerusalem is not a Temple. Revelation 21:22 says; "And I saw NO temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it." Without going into detail, New Jerusalem is a "sign" to show the consummation of Gods many-faceted plan. But one may object that Revelation 21:3 seems to contradict verse 22. It says; "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God." But this difficulty is solved if we stay with the OVERALL vision of Christ in the Bible. Our Lord Jesus is BOTH the Tabernacle of God AND God. He is designated by Isaiah with the Title of "Emmanuel", which means "God with us" (Isa.7:14, 8:8; Matt.1:23). But He is also The Tabernacle of God (Jn.2:19-21). So New Jerusalem is a BUILDING but not a Temple. It HOUSES the Tabernacle of God.
    3. The Third distinct Temple is the Church. Of course, it is the sum of Christ's Body (1st Cor.12.12). But the Church is revealed as identical to Eve and Eve was a distinct person. In Ephesians 5:30-32 it is, "For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." The context is the wife, and the "flesh and bones" alludes to Eve (Gen.2.23). The verse 32 continues with, "This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church." The word "and" is a conjunction. It joins two different things. So the Temple of God is also the Church.

    These THREE Temples all fulfill a unique purpose, and although God dwells in all THREE, He dwells in them with different goals.
    1. The physical Temple of Israel is so that God, Who is a Spirit, can dwell WITH, or AMONG profane men without injuring His holiness. Since Israel were profane lawbreakers right up to 70 AD, God dwelt in a Holy Place BEHIND a THICK CURTAIN. It was there that He met with Israel's representative - the High Priest once a year. In the Millennium, Emmanuel will live WITH and AMONG Israel. But they refused Christ and so they do not enjoy the cleansing that the Church does. So our Lord Jesus will need a physical House to live AMONG Israel but still be separate from them.
    2. Christ is God's perfect plan and consummation. He has a Man who is holy. A Man who is unsullied by Adam's corruption. And a Man who is so permeated and saturated with God that Colossians 2:9 says, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." And the purpose of this organic union between God and Man is that Jesus Christ, the Man, could be "... the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, ... ." (Heb.1:3). Whereas the Church member - the Christian, is given a "measure of every part" (Eph.4:16), John 3:34 say of Christ, "For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him." Our Lord Jesus, the Abode and Habitation of God displays God in ALL His glory.
    3. The Church is only one step below this. The Church, with its many members, all with differing gifts, differing standards of faith and differing functions, but still in organic union with God, displays God's MANY FACETS individually.

    • Thus, Ezekiel's Temple is a physical HOUSE for the physical presence of Christ in a physical Land so that the physical nations can go up once a year and worship Him as God.
    • The Church, although made of BODIES (1st Cor.6:15), is, "... as living stones, are being built up a SPIRITUAL HOUSE, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." (1st Pet.2:5)
    • New Jerusalem is (i) a City, (ii) a Woman - a Bride, (iii) from heaven, (iv) but on earth, (v) a Cube - the shape of the Holy of Holies, (vi) but made of men, (vii) God and the Lamb - Emmanuel - as the Temple of it, (viii) huge - ca. 2,200 kilometers wide, long and high, (ix) measured with the measure of an angle - men in resurrection, and (x) one City but contains THREE distinct entities - God, The Church as Walls, and Israel as Gates. And finally, the New Jerusalem only comes down to earth at the END of the Millennium. The Temple of Ezekiel is built at the BEGINNING of the Millennium.

    I guess there are a few things you don't quite see the same way as I do:
    I don't quite get what you r objection is.
    The NJ is a PHYSICAL place on earth. Jesus will be PHYSICALLY on earth to in the NJ.

    However I also note that in scripture we have at least TWO more PHYSICAL Temples, that built by Zerubbabel and rebuilt by Herod.
    We also have the Temple of God IN Heaven which we see in Hebrews and Revelation.

    So the ONLY question is which of these Temples was Ezekiel shown.
    The simple answer is the one in Heaven, which will come down with the NJ.

  5. #20
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    Re: Is Ezekiel's vision the woman in Rev 12 being nourished in the wilderness

    For those who take scripture at what is plainly said, 2nd Peter 1:20 is binding. It reads; "knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation". Man is exquisitely damaged from the fall. The Holy Spirit sees him thus; "Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually" (Genesis 6:5). Thus, the interpreting of God's holy Writ is not left to the human mind. It must be interpreted with scripture and and not man's thoughts. With this in mind, it is praiseworthy that Bible scholars have set about explaining the Woman of Revelation Chapter 12 with Jacob's dream of Genesis Chapter 37. But in their zeal they grasp at small things and ignore the big. There are HUGE differences which, if ignored, lead to the wrong understanding, and if embraced, go a long way to show the correct meaning.

    Let us see if we can, after close examination, make an interpretation from Genesis 37.

    Joseph's dreams were to show him that ultimately he would rule over his brethren. In the second dream he saw the sun, the moon and eleven stars bow down to him. If the brothers were stars, and Joseph was a brother, we would, by default, have 12 stars. And that is ALL we have in similarity to Revelation Chapter 12. One things is immediately clear. If the moon was Joseph's mother then ONLY Rachel is meant. But Israel came from FOUR WOMEN. So all Israel is not shown by this dream. But what is shown is that the sun, the moon and the twelve stars represented the TOTALITY OF GOD'S PEOPLE at that time. That is the only similarity to Revelation Chapter 12. In Revelation Chapter 12 we have;
    1. A "sign". That is, the Woman is REPRESENTATIVE
    2. A sign "in heaven". This fact already sinks any attempt to make the Woman Israel for Israel do not aspire to heaven. Their hope and destiny is the Land of Canaan. They are not even raptured to the sky. Israel is a great and populous nation, but they are "as the sand of the sea shore" - EARTHLY. They have no connection to heaven.
    3. A "Woman". In Israel the male ruled and the male inherited. So this Woman is for something else - seed. She brings forth THREE SEEDS. Thus, her primary task is MOTHER.
    4. A woman "clothed" with the sun. In Genesis 37 Jacob IS the sun, but the Woman of Revelation 12 is NOT the sun.
    5. The "sun". Here, if we are true to 2nd Peter 1:20 we only have Jacob from Genesis 37 as a the sun. But in many cases the "sun" in Parable speaks of our Lord Jesus. In Malachi 4:2 He is the "SUN of righteousness". This thought is anchored in Matthew 13:43. "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father .... ." So the Woman has a "garment" which is "Christ's righteousness". See also Revelation 19:8. Only the Church has Christ's righteousness. Israel have their own righteousness (i) from the Law, and (ii) because they refused Christ.
    6. The moon under her feet. In Genesis 37 Rachel was the moon. But not so here. Here, the moon is the Woman's footstool. The moon is a dead planet that can only REFLECT the sun. It has no light of its own. This fits Israel perfectly. By their righteous adherence to God's Law they can REFLECT God's righteousness without having it themselves.
    7. "Upon her head a CROWN". A "crown" is for ruling. Do Israel get to rule. NO! The Kingdom is taken away from them (Matt.21:43). 12 Apostles - Christians - sit on 12 thrones ruling 12 tribes of Israel when Christ returns. The "crown" is made of stars. We have one more reference to this in 1 Corinthians 15:40-42 - the Chapter on resurrection. And there we learn that in resurrection some will have "celestial" glory, while others only "terrestrial" glory. One of heaven and one of the earth. And then in verse 41 it says; "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory." This verse pertain to the Woman of Revelation 12 FAR MORE than Genesis 37. Here we have the resurrection of people connected with this Woman. And the "Sun" is present, obviously Christ, the moon, as already established Israel REFLECTING God's righteousness by the Law, and then those that will rule - the stars - heavenly men who will rule. The "stars of heaven will rule" and that was one seed of Abraham, and the "sand of the sea shore" - earthly, will NOT rule.
    8. She is "with child". Only this child is recorded as being delivered in pain and under threat of the Devil. The Woman has TWO other seeds in that Chapter, but there is no record of PAIN.
    9. The Woman has THREE SEEDS. (i) The Man-Child, delivered in pain and under threat. (ii) Seed that "has the testimony of Jesus Christ". Only Christians can claim this. But far from subduing the Dragon, these Christians must FLEE. (iii) Seed that "keeps the Commandments of God (not Christ). Moses spoke the commandments of God in five Books. The Christian must obey Christ's commandments (Jn.15:14). The Holy Spirit is given to bring CHRIST'S Commands to the Christian (Jn.14:26). On the Mount of Transfiguration the Father thunders from heaven, "HEAR HIM" meaning our Lord Jesus (Matt.17:5). Thus, "those who keep the commandments of God" are Israelites!
    10. TWO Seeds must flee the Dragon and the Beast. They are OVERCOME! But the Man-Child OVERCOMES. The Man-Child can only be ONE of TWO. Christ will rule the nations with a rod of iron (Rev.19:15). The Overcoming Christians will also (Rev.2:27).

    Which one is the Man-Child? FOUR proofs are available;
    1. The rapture of the Man Child is connected with Satan being cast from heaven, in which case he only has "a LITTLE time left" - that is, the end of the age
    2. The rapture of the Man-Child is connected with the Kingdom of God - the end of the age
    3. The rapture of the Man-Child is connected with "THEY" and "THEIR" in verse 10
    4. The rapture of the Man-Child is connected with men (plural) who applied the blood of the Lamb, and loved not "THEIR" soul-lives - PAIN!

    The Man-Child is PLURAL, is connected to the end of the age, and is connected with the arrival of the Kingdom of God - the arrival of Christ from heaven. THEY MUST BE THE OVERCOMING CHRISTIANS.

    And if so, then the Woman's THREE Seeds make up a REPRESENTATIVE TOTALITY of ALL GOD'S PEOPLE
    1. The Overcomers - those Christians who followed Christ until they experienced the death of their souls
    2. Those whose testimony is Christ but who are overcome - slothful Christians
    3. Those who keep the commandments of God - the REMNANT of Israel who were predicted in Deuteronomy 30:1-5 and reconfirmed in Romans 11

    The context of Galatians 4:22-30 is the Church and Israel as antagonists.
    • One, Israel, is in bondage to the Law - One, the Church, is free of the Law
    • One is by the efforts of the flesh - One is by intervention of the Holy Spirit in a barren woman
    • One is a bond servant - One is HEIR
    • One is in bondage to the covenant of Sinai (Law) - One is subject to the Covenant of PROMISE given to Abraham
    • Israel is first, but will not reign (Matt.21:43) - The Church is last and will reign and inherit

    TWO antagonists. But then verse 26 makes an astounding statement. "But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of US ALL." Now "US ALL" according to the context is BOTH the Church AND Israel. What Galatians 4 is saying is that DESPITE the Church and Israel being antagonists, we BOTH have our origin in God. We both have the same MOTHER. So the Woman in Revelation Chapter 12 is NOT Israel. She is NOT Mary. She is NOT Rachel. SHE IS NEW JERUSALEM!

    • She is heavenly in origin - but takes her place on earth
    • She has the righteousness of Christ as her garment
    • She has a crown for ruling
    • She has "stars" to bring heavenly rule
    • She has as her footstool Israel - the moon reflecting God's righteousness by Law
    • She has brought forth THREE SEEDS - all having their origin in God
    • She is found again in Romans Chapter 11 in the Olive Tree, the Root that is holy, natural branches cut off but later re-instated, and wild branches grafted in but in danger of being cut off again
    • She is found in Galatians Chapter 4 - Mother of us all
    • She is found in Revelation Chapter 21 and 22 - A City in heaven, A Woman with the glory of God, a Bride for Christ, Walls made out of Christians, Gates made out of Israel and Christ in the center as the River of Life and the Tree of Life

    The proofs are overwhelming!
    Last edited by Walls; Jan 23rd 2019 at 09:29 AM.

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    Re: Is Ezekiel's vision the woman in Rev 12 being nourished in the wilderness

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I don't quite get what you r objection is.
    The NJ is a PHYSICAL place on earth. Jesus will be PHYSICALLY on earth to in the NJ.

    However I also note that in scripture we have at least TWO more PHYSICAL Temples, that built by Zerubbabel and rebuilt by Herod.
    We also have the Temple of God IN Heaven which we see in Hebrews and Revelation.

    So the ONLY question is which of these Temples was Ezekiel shown.
    The simple answer is the one in Heaven, which will come down with the NJ.
    I understand your reasoning. Just a few considerations.
    • Herod did not build a Temple. He enlarged the outer court of the existing Temple built by Zerubbabel.
    • New Jerusalem is a "sign" but which contains physical elements. To make it at the same time a City, a Woman, a Bride, a Cube 2,220 kilometers square, in heaven and on earth at the same time, Walls of Christians, foundations of Apostles, Israel as Gates, A Tree of Life in the middle of the single street but at the same time on both sides of the River of Life produces an absurdity. But if New Jerusalem is the consummated Work of God, each of those will be real and physical, but be combined in a Parable to save Books of writing.
    • Ezekiel's Temple is not really a problem. Emmanuel must physically live somewhere after His return from heaven. What stumbles most scholars is the animal sacrifices. But if this is answered satisfactorily, then the proofs are overwhelming. Ezekiel's Temple is Christ's House in Jerusalem in the Millennium.

    So, a question must be answered. When our Lord Jesus returns to earth and sets up His Kingdom, where will He physically live? Example; In Zechariah 14:16; "... it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles." Wher will this King be that He can be worshiped at the Feast of Tabernacles by the defeated remnants of Armageddon?

    Of course, if you have the New Earth immediately after Armageddon, then Ezekiel's Temple must be in New Jerusalem. I understand. In this, there is another consideration. How is it that men who attacked Jerusalem will have access to the leaves of the Tree of Life?

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    Re: Is Ezekiel's vision the woman in Rev 12 being nourished in the wilderness

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I understand your reasoning. Just a few considerations.
    • Herod did not build a Temple. He enlarged the outer court of the existing Temple built by Zerubbabel.
    • According to Josephus (which is our ONLY full account) and according to what the Jews stated in John 2:20 Herod did NOT simply enlarge the existing temple. The ONLY thing that remained of Zerubbabel's temple was the altar:
      Antiquities of the Jews 15.11.2 And this was the speech which Herod made to them; but still this speech frightened many of the people, as being unexpected by them; and because it seemed incredible, it did not encourage them, but put a damp upon them, for they were afraid that he would pull down the whole edifice, and not be able to bring his intentions to perfection for its rebuilding; and this danger appeared to them to be very great, and the vastness of the undertaking to be such as could hardly be accomplished. But while they were in this disposition, the king encouraged them, and told them he would not pull down their temple till all things were gotten ready for building it up entirely again. And as he promised them this beforehand, so he did not break his word with them, but got ready a thousand wagons, that were to bring stones for the building, and chose out ten thousand of the most skillful workmen, and bought a thousand sacerdotal garments for as many of the priests, and had some of them taught the arts of stone-cutters, and others of carpenters, and then began to build; but this not till every thing was well prepared for the work.
      3. So Herod took away the old foundations, and laid others, and erected the temple upon them, being in length a hundred cubits, and in height twenty additional cubits, which [twenty], upon the sinking of their foundations (23) fell down; and this part it was that we resolved to raise again in the days of Nero.

    • New Jerusalem is a "sign" but which contains physical elements. To make it at the same time a City, a Woman, a Bride, a Cube 2,220 kilometers square, in heaven and on earth at the same time, Walls of Christians, foundations of Apostles, Israel as Gates, A Tree of Life in the middle of the single street but at the same time on both sides of the River of Life produces an absurdity. But if New Jerusalem is the consummated Work of God, each of those will be real and physical, but be combined in a Parable to save Books of writing.
    It is NOT in heaven at the same time of earth. At the moment it is in heaven and in the future will be on earth.
    As a woman is a description or metaphor and causes no issue.
    It isn't a cube 2,220 kilometers square. However that may need clarifying for you.
    The Walls are NOT Christians, nor the foundations as Apostles or Israel as Gates - these are again simple names attributed and metaphors utilised.
    The tree isn't in the middle of the street so much as the River flows through the middle of the street, with the Tree growing on both sides, which again causes no issues - it simply shows roots on both sides and growing up with multiple trunks.
    As for it being a parable, the question is what is the REAL aspect of it.

  8. Ezekiel's Temple is not really a problem. Emmanuel must physically live somewhere after His return from heaven. What stumbles most scholars is the animal sacrifices. But if this is answered satisfactorily, then the proofs are overwhelming. Ezekiel's Temple is Christ's House in Jerusalem in the Millennium.
So you seem to agree with me on this point.

So, a question must be answered. When our Lord Jesus returns to earth and sets up His Kingdom, where will He physically live? Example; In Zechariah 14:16; "... it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles." Wher will this King be that He can be worshiped at the Feast of Tabernacles by the defeated remnants of Armageddon?

Of course, if you have the New Earth immediately after Armageddon, then Ezekiel's Temple must be in New Jerusalem. I understand. In this, there is another consideration. How is it that men who attacked Jerusalem will have access to the leaves of the Tree of Life?
The answer to your final question is NONE of the men who attacked Jerusalem will have access to the leaves of the Tree of Life. Only those who are LEFT of the nations which attacked have access, and the prophecy shows those who attacked died. Further ONLY those who have washed their robes may enter the NJ.
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  • #23
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    Re: Is Ezekiel's vision the woman in Rev 12 being nourished in the wilderness

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    What stumbles most scholars is the animal sacrifices. But if this is answered satisfactorily, then the proofs are overwhelming. Ezekiel's Temple is Christ's House in Jerusalem in the Millennium.
    And if there is no millennium......

    if you have the New Earth immediately after Armageddon, then Ezekiel's Temple must be in New Jerusalem. I understand.
    So where is she today?

    It must currently exist. We say it is the woman in Rev 21 NJ. So who is the woman Rev 12? It has to be the same woman as she exists today and just does not come about in Rev 21......there she is called "new" Jerusalem thus the "regular" or "old" was replaced, renewed.


    Walls,

    Think of Ezekiel's vision (which includes the city not just the temple) as a constant. Thus NJ is the same city as it was before Christ returns. The same woman in Rev 12, 17, and 21. This city is the heavenly city in Rev 12 which comes to earth, this city will be the city committing fornication with the beast in Rev 17, then again this city will come down from heaven renewed a bride with the correct bridegroom. So this is why the same city can have animal sacrifices (when upon earth before Christ returns) and one which will be wherein the Lord will reside eternally (NJ).

    So Ezekiel 40-48 is a vision of a temple within a city. It starts out a city which involves animal sacrifices on earth and such but one which will end being the eternal city NJ in a NHNE.

    Now whether this woman as NJ is a entirely new woman or a renewing of the old currently in heaven not sure....

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    Re: Is Ezekiel's vision the woman in Rev 12 being nourished in the wilderness

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    And if there is no millennium......



    So where is she today?

    It must currently exist. We say it is the woman in Rev 21 NJ. So who is the woman Rev 12? It has to be the same woman as she exists today and just does not come about in Rev 21......there she is called "new" Jerusalem thus the "regular" or "old" was replaced, renewed.


    Walls,

    Think of Ezekiel's vision (which includes the city not just the temple) as a constant. Thus NJ is the same city as it was before Christ returns. The same woman in Rev 12, 17, and 21. This city is the heavenly city in Rev 12 which comes to earth, this city will be the city committing fornication with the beast in Rev 17, then again this city will come down from heaven renewed a bride with the correct bridegroom. So this is why the same city can have animal sacrifices (when upon earth before Christ returns) and one which will be wherein the Lord will reside eternally (NJ).

    So Ezekiel 40-48 is a vision of a temple within a city. It starts out a city which involves animal sacrifices on earth and such but one which will end being the eternal city NJ in a NHNE.

    Now whether this woman as NJ is a entirely new woman or a renewing of the old currently in heaven not sure....
    I have difficulty following your theory. It's probably my fault. So I'll just answer you generally.

    First, my method of handling the bible is that EVERYTHING is LITERAL unless (i) it says so (e.g. Gal.4:24), (ii) it is obvious like Daniel's rendering of Nebuchadnezzar's dream, or (iii) to follow the literal way would create an absurdity. My method is strengthened by the fact that ALL prophecy that has been fulfilled, was fulfilled literally and accurately. Language is given by God to communicate ideas, and to make sure the right idea is transmitted we have rules of grammar. So my approach is that the said scripture is literal, and if I apply the rules of grammar for that language, I will have the best conditions for understanding the idea God waned to transmit.

    Now, the Woman of Revelation 12 is first of all "A SIGN". So immediately I drop the literal approach and gather EVERY point of the "sign" to compare it to other scripture to try to get the meaning. So the Woman is "symbolic", or "representative" of something. Revelation 12 then goes on to say things that, if taken literally would cause difficulty.

    The Woman, besides being stated as a "sign", is seen in heaven. But unlike New Jerusalem of Revelation 21, there is no talk of her "coming down from heaven". But later in the Chapter she is found on earth for that is the theater of the Dragon's operations after he is cast from heaven. There is only one way to settle this then. The "sign" in heaven speaks of her NATURE and ORIGIN - heavenly, but her theater of operations is on earth. Now, this does not decide whether she will be good or bad. Lucifer is a Cherub - heavenly being, but his theater of operations is earth too (Job.1:7, 2:2). His standing before God is decided by OTHER scriptures. So how can we decide if the Woman of Revelation 12 is good or evil?

    We decide by her SEED. In Genesis 1:11-12 God set forth an immutable Law. That is, everything that has its seed within itself will ALWAYS bring forth the same specie as itself. So if we examine the SEED of the Woman, we can only come to the conclusion that she is GOOD. Her seed is:
    1. A Man-Child who is the rule the nations with rod of iron, who overcame, who ushers in the Kingdom of God, who is the ENEMY of the Dragon
    2. "Those who have the testimony of Jesus". The word "testimony" comes from the root word "martus" from which we have the English word "martyrs". It means; "evidence given (judicially or generic), a record, a report, a testimony, a witness (Strong's Greek & Hebrew Dictionary). That is, these men and women carried the EVIDENCE of Jesus Christ and REPORTED of Him and are WITNESSES of His reality. These are Christians.
    3. "Those who keep the Commandments of God". "The Commandments of God" is a term used throughout the Bible to show the Law of Moses. In Deuteronomy 30:1-5 Moses prophesied that if Israel, AFTER their diaspora, turned back to what he, Moses, was expounding on "that day", God would restore Israel. And what Moses was expounding on "that day" in Deuteronomy 30:1-5 was the Law. So "those who keep the commandments of God" must be this select group, or "Remnant" who have turned back to the Law and are the foundation of Israel's restoration.

    It does not take rocket science to immediately see that the SEED of the Woman of Revelation Chapter 12 is ALL FROM GOD. And our Lord Jesus Himself said the following in Matthew 7:16-20

    16 "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
    17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
    18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."


    It is at once clear that the Woman of Revelation 12, if she be known by her "fruit", is OF GOD and GOOD.She is;
    1. Heavenly in NATURE and ORIGIN
    2. Her theater of operations is earth
    3. Her one SEED will eventually rule the nations and subdue them
    4. Her next SEED carries the proof and evidence and report of Jesus Christ
    5. Her next SEED is a vital remnant of Israel, predicted in Deuteronomy 30 and confirmed in Romans 11 that is God's judicial foundation for restoring Israel
    6. She is MOTHER to both Jew and Christian for they are her SEED
    7. She has the glory and righteousness of Christ
    8. She is clothed with the "sun" - "the greater light to rule the day" (Gen.1:16)
    9. She has a crown - she will rule
    10. She has as her footstool, the moon - "the lesser light to rule the night" (Gen.1.16)

    Now compare her to New Jerusalem in Revelation Chapter 21
    1. She is a Woman
    2. She is Christ's Bride
    3. She is heavenly in NATURE and ORIGIN
    4. She "comes down to earth"
    5. She rules (Rev.22:5)
    6. She has the glory of God
    7. She has as a foundation, Christ
    8. She has a Wall of Christians
    9. She has Gates made of Israel
    10. She has, as her light, "the Sun of righteousness" (Rev.21:23)

    That these two are the same Woman seems to me to be obvious. What do you think of this?

  • #25
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    Re: Is Ezekiel's vision the woman in Rev 12 being nourished in the wilderness

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    According to Josephus (which is our ONLY full account) and according to what the Jews stated in John 2:20 Herod did NOT simply enlarge the existing temple. The ONLY thing that remained of Zerubbabel's temple was the altar:
    Antiquities of the Jews 15.11.2 And this was the speech which Herod made to them; but still this speech frightened many of the people, as being unexpected by them; and because it seemed incredible, it did not encourage them, but put a damp upon them, for they were afraid that he would pull down the whole edifice, and not be able to bring his intentions to perfection for its rebuilding; and this danger appeared to them to be very great, and the vastness of the undertaking to be such as could hardly be accomplished. But while they were in this disposition, the king encouraged them, and told them he would not pull down their temple till all things were gotten ready for building it up entirely again. And as he promised them this beforehand, so he did not break his word with them, but got ready a thousand wagons, that were to bring stones for the building, and chose out ten thousand of the most skillful workmen, and bought a thousand sacerdotal garments for as many of the priests, and had some of them taught the arts of stone-cutters, and others of carpenters, and then began to build; but this not till every thing was well prepared for the work.
    3. So Herod took away the old foundations, and laid others, and erected the temple upon them, being in length a hundred cubits, and in height twenty additional cubits, which [twenty], upon the sinking of their foundations (23) fell down; and this part it was that we resolved to raise again in the days of Nero.


    It is NOT in heaven at the same time of earth. At the moment it is in heaven and in the future will be on earth.
    As a woman is a description or metaphor and causes no issue.
    It isn't a cube 2,220 kilometers square. However that may need clarifying for you.
    The Walls are NOT Christians, nor the foundations as Apostles or Israel as Gates - these are again simple names attributed and metaphors utilised.
    The tree isn't in the middle of the street so much as the River flows through the middle of the street, with the Tree growing on both sides, which again causes no issues - it simply shows roots on both sides and growing up with multiple trunks.
    As for it being a parable, the question is what is the REAL aspect of it.


    So you seem to agree with me on this point.


    The answer to your final question is NONE of the men who attacked Jerusalem will have access to the leaves of the Tree of Life. Only those who are LEFT of the nations which attacked have access, and the prophecy shows those who attacked died. Further ONLY those who have washed their robes may enter the NJ.
    Thank you for the informative posting. I think we agree on certain things, and in those that we don't, we have swapped ideas. It is thought provoking and I've enjoyed the exchange. Thanks and God bless.

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    Re: Is Ezekiel's vision the woman in Rev 12 being nourished in the wilderness

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The "sign" in heaven speaks of her NATURE and ORIGIN - heavenly, but her theater of operations is on earth.
    Are you saying that the woman was not actually in heaven to start? If the case then the same would be for the dragon in the vision but it is clear the dragon IS in heaven, thus I would say so was the woman literally.

    I know it may seem hard this woman (city) coming down from heaven and to appear on earth at some point. But imagine the deception this would poise. One claiming to be God from the actual city....

    That these two are the same Woman seems to me to be obvious. What do you think of this?
    YES!!!! amen!!! You and I maybe the only two living which believe this......

    Now I also see the woman in Rev 17 as the same. All along there have been books written about two woman...ummm really two woman in the wilderness at the same time?

    Also notice her appearance in Rev 17. Decked with gold and jewels, dressed in purple and scarlet as were the linens of old upon the house.

    So this is her progression.

    In heaven comes to earth into wilderness earth 3.5 years protected from serpent himself Rev 12------> after 3.5 serpent comes upon from abyss then the two marry (fornicate) Rev 17-------> Christ returns as woman renewed married rightful groom Rev 21.

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    Re: Is Ezekiel's vision the woman in Rev 12 being nourished in the wilderness

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Are you saying that the woman was not actually in heaven to start? If the case then the same would be for the dragon in the vision but it is clear the dragon IS in heaven, thus I would say so was the woman literally.

    I know it may seem hard this woman (city) coming down from heaven and to appear on earth at some point. But imagine the deception this would poise. One claiming to be God from the actual city....
    I think we agree. When I said her ORIGIN is heaven, she must have been there. Equally, though she be heavenly, she is later on the earth to be persecuted by the Dragon.


    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    YES!!!! amen!!! You and I maybe the only two living which believe this......

    Now I also see the woman in Rev 17 as the same. All along there have been books written about two woman...ummm really two woman in the wilderness at the same time?

    Also notice her appearance in Rev 17. Decked with gold and jewels, dressed in purple and scarlet as were the linens of old upon the house.

    So this is her progression.

    In heaven comes to earth into wilderness earth 3.5 years protected from serpent himself Rev 12------> after 3.5 serpent comes upon from abyss then the two marry (fornicate) Rev 17-------> Christ returns as woman renewed married rightful groom Rev 21.
    I rejoice with you because of what we both see and agree on. Just the woman of 17 is problematic.

    Here is why I cannot see that the Woman of Chapters 12 and 21 are the same as the woman of Chapter 17.
    1. The woman of 17 is not in heaven. She sits on "many waters". In Parable the sea is the nations (see verse 15)
    2. The Woman in 12 is protected - the woman of 17 is "judged"
    3. The Woman of 12 is nourished by God - the woman of 17 fornicates with the inhabitants of the earth
    4. The Woman of 12 is provided for by God - the woman of 17 "blasphemes God"
    5. The Woman of 21 is made of precious stones - the woman of 17 is only bedecked with them
    6. The Woman of 21 is a Virgin (2nd Corinthians 11:2) - the woman of 17 is a whore
    7. The Woman of 21 is named New Jerusalem - the woman of 17 is named Babylon
    8. The Woman of 21 is named "Mother of US (the Church and Israel) - the woman of 17 is a mother of harlots

    There may be a progression, as you called it, but I cannot see this. There has been an epic battle between the Dragon and the Woman (Gen.3:15). It unfolds through the ages, a Woman speaking for God's religion and a counterfeit woman speaking for the Dragon. The woman of 17 is drunk with the blood of the seed of the Woman of 12 and 21. They are mortal enemies from Eden.

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