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Thread: Church Father quotes in support of my views

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    Church Father quotes in support of my views

    In this thread I will provide a few quotes from Church Fathers that show support for my view that the AoD (Abomination of Desolation) was fulfilled in the Roman invasion of Jerusalem 66-70 AD. I do this because I'm regularly derided for having "nonsensical" views which, if the Fathers held to them, are not "nonsensical." I'm also doing that for the sake of those who like strong references. Some regularly trash reference to Church Fathers or to historical commentators, but this is for those who like to delve into the historical depth of our biblical interpretations. Obviously, I do!

    I wish to break up some of this into separate posts, so as to avoid confusion between the various views, or to allow discussion over each position represented.

    In effect, the Church Fathers seemed to view the 70 Weeks Prophecy of Dan 9 as completely fulfilled in the time of Christ. This would naturally include the AoD as something fulfilled immediately following the death of Christ, since in this prophecy the AoD immediately follows the completion of the 70 Weeks.

    The Church Fathers also saw Jesus as the "Unction," or "Anointed," or "Holy of Holies, as described in the Dan 9 prophecy. And they saw the consequence of Jewish rejection of Jesus, the "Anointed One," as the desolation of Jerusalem, the temple, and the Jewish People. The desolation of the Jewish People was their dispersion. The desolation of the temple worship was the destruction of its buildings. And the desolation of Jerusalem was its defeat.

    In all of these quotes the assumption seems to be made that the desolation of Jerusalem and the temple, in consequence for rejecting Christ, is the Abomination of Desolation in both Dan 9 and the Olivet Discourse. The "desolation" of Jerusalem is in fact the abomination of "desolation." And the "desolation" of the temple is in fact the abomination of "desolation."

    The following quotes will show these things, although some assumptions are being made by me. I obtained these quotations from a variety of places on the internet, and thus are easily accessible.

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    Re: Church Father quotes in support of my views

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    In this thread I will provide a few quotes from Church Fathers that show support for my view that the AoD (Abomination of Desolation) was fulfilled in the Roman invasion of Jerusalem 66-70 AD. I do this because I'm regularly derided for having "nonsensical" views which, if the Fathers held to them, are not "nonsensical." I'm also doing that for the sake of those who like strong references. Some regularly trash reference to Church Fathers or to historical commentators, but this is for those who like to delve into the historical depth of our biblical interpretations. Obviously, I do!

    I wish to break up some of this into separate posts, so as to avoid confusion between the various views, or to allow discussion over each position represented.
    Tertullian here sees Dan 9, or the 70 Weeks Prophecy, as fulfilled in the time of Christ. And he sees Christ specifically as the "Anointed One," which he here calls the "Unction." He also sees the judgment of the Jews a consequence of rejecting Christ as the "Anointed One" of Dan 9. That is likely how he interpreted the Olivet Discourse, as the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD as a consequence of the Jews rejecting Christ.

    Tertullian (c. 160-225) An Answer to the Jews: Chap. XIII.--Argument from the Destruction of Jerusalem and Desolation of Judea.
    Therefore, since the sons of Israel affirm that we err in receiving the Christ, who is already come, let us put in a demurrer against them out of the Scriptures themselves, to the effect that the Christ who was the theme of prediction is come; albeit by the times of Daniel’s prediction we have proved that the Christ is come already who was the theme of announcement... Now, if (according to the Jews) He is hitherto not come, when He begins to come whence will He be anointed? For the Law enjoined that, in captivity, it was not lawful for the unction of the royal chrism to be compounded. But, if there is no longer “unction” there as Daniel prophesied (for he says, “Unction shall be exterminated”), it follows that they no longer have it, because neither have they a temple where was the “horn” from which kings were wont to be anointed. If, then, there is no unction, whence shall be anointed the “leader” who shall be born in Bethlehem? or how shall he proceed “from Bethlehem,” seeing that of the seed of Israel none at all exists in Bethlehem... A second time, in fact, let us show that Christ is already come, (as foretold) through the prophets, and has suffered, and is already received back in the heavens, and thence is to come accordingly as the predictions prophesied. For, after His advent, we read, according to Daniel, that the city itself had to be exterminated; and we recognise that so it has befallen. For the Scripture says thus, that “the city and the holy place are simultaneously exterminated together with the leader,” —undoubtedly (that Leader) who was to proceed “from Bethlehem,” and from the tribe of “Judah.” Whence, again, it is manifest that “the city must simultaneously be exterminated” at the time when its “Leader” had to suffer in it, (as foretold) through the Scriptures of the prophets... Since, therefore, the Jews were predicted as destined to suffer these calamities on Christ’s account, and we find that they have suffered them, and see them sent into dispersion and abiding in it, manifest it is that it is on Christ’s account that these things have befallen the Jews, the sense of the Scriptures harmonizing with the issue of events and of the order of the times.

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    Re: Church Father quotes in support of my views

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    In this thread I will provide a few quotes from Church Fathers that show support for my view that the AoD (Abomination of Desolation) was fulfilled in the Roman invasion of Jerusalem 66-70 AD. I do this because I'm regularly derided for having "nonsensical" views which, if the Fathers held to them, are not "nonsensical." I'm also doing that for the sake of those who like strong references. Some regularly trash reference to Church Fathers or to historical commentators, but this is for those who like to delve into the historical depth of our biblical interpretations. Obviously, I do!

    I wish to break up some of this into separate posts, so as to avoid confusion between the various views, or to allow discussion over each position represented.
    Here Clement of Alexandria establishes that the 70 Weeks were fulfilled in the life time of Christ, followed by the destruction of the city and the sanctuary in his generation. Jesus is here identified as the "Holy of Holies," just as Tertullian described him as the "Unction," or "Anointed."
    Since Clement connects the AoD of Dan 9 with the AoD of the Olivet Discourse, he sees the AoD of the Olivet Discourse to be the same as the AoD of Dan 9, which is the destruction of the temple in the time of the Romans.

    I might add here that Clement takes a turn from other positions with respect to the 7 weeks and the 1 week. He seems to view Christ ruling, in a pre-incarnate sense, during the rebuilding of Jerusalem in the days of Nehemiah, in the following 62 weeks, and in the final week-I don't know how he can suggest this period was "without war?" And he views the final week, as well, in the sense that after Christ's death Nero somehow fulfills the 1st half of the 70th Week, and Vespasian fulfills the last half of the 70th Week. This alters the view of other Fathers, who viewed Christ as the one who fulfills the 70th Week.

    Clement of Alexandria The Stromata, Book 1, Chap. XXI (c. A.D. 190)
    From the captivity at Babylon, which took place in the time of Jeremiah the prophet, was fulfilled what was spoken by Daniel the prophet as follows: "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people, and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to seal sins, and to wipe out and make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal the vision and the prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. Know therefore, and understand, that from the going forth of the word commanding an answer to be given, and Jerusalem to be built, to Christ the Prince, are seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; and the street shall be again built, and the wall; and the times shall be expended. And after the sixty-two weeks the anointing shall be overthrown, and judgment shall not be in him; and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary along with the coming Prince. And they shall be destroyed in a flood, and to the end of the war shall be cut off by: desolations. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week; and in the middle of the week the sacrifice and oblation shall be taken away; and in the holy place shall be the abomination of desolations, and until the consummation of time shall the consummation be assigned for desolation. And in the midst of the week shall he make the incense of sacrifice cease, and of the wing of destruction, even till the consummation, like the destruction of the oblation." That the temple accordingly was built in seven weeks, is evident; for it is written in Esdras. And thus Christ became King of the Jews, reigning in Jerusalem in the fulfilment of the seven weeks. And in the sixty and two weeks the whole of Judaea was quiet, and without wars. And Christ our Lord, "the Holy of Holies," having come and fulfilled the vision and the prophecy, was anointed in His flesh by the Holy Spirit of His Father.
    In those "sixty and two weeks," as the prophet said, and "in the one week," was He Lord. The half of the week Nero held sway, and in the holy city Jerusalem placed the abomination; and in the half of the week he was taken away, and Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius. And Vespasian rose to the supreme power, and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place. And that such are the facts of the case, is clear to him that is able to understand, as the prophet said.

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    Re: Church Father quotes in support of my views

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    In this thread I will provide a few quotes from Church Fathers that show support for my view that the AoD (Abomination of Desolation) was fulfilled in the Roman invasion of Jerusalem 66-70 AD. I do this because I'm regularly derided for having "nonsensical" views which, if the Fathers held to them, are not "nonsensical." I'm also doing that for the sake of those who like strong references. Some regularly trash reference to Church Fathers or to historical commentators, but this is for those who like to delve into the historical depth of our biblical interpretations. Obviously, I do!

    I wish to break up some of this into separate posts, so as to avoid confusion between the various views, or to allow discussion over each position represented.
    Leaving all controversy about Origen aside, I wish only to point out that this important Church Father shared the belief that the 70 Weeks of Dan 9 was fulfilled in the time of Christ. That would suggest that the AoD, which follows, the 70 Weeks, was fulfilled in the same time frame.

    Origen, De Principiis, Book IV: Chap. 1, Sec. 5 (c. A.D. 225)
    The weeks of years, also, which the prophet Daniel had predicted, extending to the leadership of Christ, have been fulfilled.

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    Re: Church Father quotes in support of my views

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    In this thread I will provide a few quotes from Church Fathers that show support for my view that the AoD (Abomination of Desolation) was fulfilled in the Roman invasion of Jerusalem 66-70 AD. I do this because I'm regularly derided for having "nonsensical" views which, if the Fathers held to them, are not "nonsensical." I'm also doing that for the sake of those who like strong references. Some regularly trash reference to Church Fathers or to historical commentators, but this is for those who like to delve into the historical depth of our biblical interpretations. Obviously, I do!

    I wish to break up some of this into separate posts, so as to avoid confusion between the various views, or to allow discussion over each position represented.
    Athanasius here sees the 70 Weeks of Dan 9 as fulfilled in Christ, who he describes as the "Holy of Holies." He argues that at the 1st Coming of Christ the temple and prophecy both come to an end, leaving only Jesus as the possible Messiah. And he sees the destruction of the temple as the necessary result of the Jews rejecting Jesus in this time period. And so, Athanasius sees the 70 Weeks Prophecy as fulfilled in Jesus' generation and in the 70 AD destruction of the temple worship. Athanasius makes it critical that the destruction of the temple means to discredit the worship of the Jews at that temple. And so, this can only apply to the time when the temple was completely destroyed, ending Jewish worship under that system. This logically correlates the desolation of Jerusalem and the temple in Dan 9 with the same desolation of the Olivet Discourse.

    Athenasius of Alexandria (c. 296-373) On the Incarnation of the Word, Sec. 39. XXXIX.

    Do you look for another ? But Daniel foretells the exact time.
    Objections to this removed.

    But perhaps, being unable, even they, to fight con-
    tinually against plain facts, they will, without denying
    what is written, maintain that they are looking for these
    things, and that the Word of God is not yet come.
    For this it is on which they are for ever harping, not
    blushing to brazen it out in the face of plain facts.
    2. But on this one point, above all, they shall be all
    the more refuted, not at our hands, but at those of
    the most wise Daniel, who marks both the actual
    date, and the divine sojourn of the Saviour, saying :
    " Seventy 1 weeks are cut short upon thy people, and
    " upon the holy city, for a full end to be made of sin,
    " and for sins to be sealed up, and to blot out iniquities,
    " and to make atonement for iniquities, and to bring
    " everlasting righteousness, and to seal vision and pro-
    " phet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies ; and thou shalt
    " know and understand from the going forth of the
    " word to restore 2 and to build Jerusalem unto Christ
    "the Prince." 3. Perhaps with regard to the other
    (prophecies) they may be able even to find excuses
    and to put off what is written to a future time. But
    what can they say to this, or can they face it at all ?
    Where not only is the Christ referred to, but he that is...

    ...to be anointed is declared to be not man simply, but the
    Holy of Holies; and Jerusalem is to stand till his
    coming, and thenceforth, prophets and vision cease in
    Israel. 4. David was anointed of old, and Solomon and
    Ezechias ; but then, nevertheless, Jerusalem and the
    place stood, and prophets were prophesying, Gad and
    Asaph and Nathan, and, later, Esaias and Osee and
    Amos and others. And again, the actual men that were
    anointed were called holy, and not Holy of Holies. But
    if they shield themselves with the captivity, and say that
    because of it Jerusalem was not, what can they say about
    the prophets too ? For in fact when first the people went
    down to Babylon, Daniel and Jeremy were thei-e, and
    Ezechiel and Aggams and Zachary were prophesying.

    XL.
    Argument (1) from the withdrawal of prophecy and destruction
    of Jerusalem, (2) from the conversion of the Gentiles, and
    that to the God of Moses. What more remains for the
    Messiah to do, that Christ had not done ?

    So the Jews are trifling, and the time in question,
    which they refer to the future, is actually come. For
    when did prophet and vision cease from Israel, save when
    Christ came, the Holy of Holies ? For it is a sign, and
    an important proof, of the coming of the Word of God,
    that Jerusalem no longer stands, nor is any prophet
    raised up nor vision revealed to them and that very
    naturally. 2. For when he that signified was come,
    what need was there any longer of any to signify him ?
    When the truth was there, what need any more of the
    shadow ? For this was the reason of their prophesying

    68 Refutation of the Jews.

    at all namely, till the true Righteousness should come,
    and he that was to ransom the sins of all. And this
    was why Jerusalem stood till then namely, that there
    they might be exercised in the types as a preparation for
    the reality. 3. So when the Holy of Holies was come,
    naturally vision and prophecy were sealed and the king
    dom of Jerusalem ceased. For kings were to be anointed
    among them only until the Holy of Holies should have
    been anointed ; and Jacob prophesies that the king
    dom of the Jews should be established until him, as
    follows : " The ruler 1 shall not fail from Juda, nor the
    "Prince from his loins, until that which is laid up for
    ; him shall come ; and he is the expectation of the
    " nations." 4. Whence the Saviour also himself cried
    aloud and said : " The 2 law and the prophets prophesied
    until John."

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    Re: Church Father quotes in support of my views

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    In this thread I will provide a few quotes from Church Fathers that show support for my view that the AoD (Abomination of Desolation) was fulfilled in the Roman invasion of Jerusalem 66-70 AD. I do this because I'm regularly derided for having "nonsensical" views which, if the Fathers held to them, are not "nonsensical." I'm also doing that for the sake of those who like strong references. Some regularly trash reference to Church Fathers or to historical commentators, but this is for those who like to delve into the historical depth of our biblical interpretations. Obviously, I do!

    I wish to break up some of this into separate posts, so as to avoid confusion between the various views, or to allow discussion over each position represented.
    Here Eusebius clearly combines the Dan 9 prophecy of the "70 Weeks" and its AoD with the AoD of the Olivet Discourse. It was, it seems, the "great tribulation of the Jewish People," as well as Jesus' prediction of an end to the Jewish temple worship.
    And it all, undoubtedly, took place in Christ's generation, since Josephus' account is referenced!

    Eusebius, Church History: Book III, Chapter 5.

    The Last Siege of the Jews after Christ.
    1. After Nero had held the power thirteen years, and Galba and Otho had ruled a year and six months, Vespasian, who had become distinguished in the campaigns against the Jews, was proclaimed sovereign in Judea and received the title of Emperor from the armies there. Setting out immediately, therefore, for Rome, he entrusted the conduct of the war against the Jews to his son Titus.
    2. For the Jews after the ascension of our Saviour, in addition to their crime against him, had been devising as many plots as they could against his apostles. First Stephen was stoned to death by them, and after him James, the son of Zebedee and the brother of John, was beheaded, and finally James, the first that had obtained the episcopal seat in Jerusalem after the ascension of our Saviour, died in the manner already described. But the rest of the apostles, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went unto all nations to preach the Gospel, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, Go and make disciples of all the nations in my name.
    3. But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. And when those that believed in Christ had come there from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men.
    4. But the number of calamities which everywhere fell upon the nation at that time; the extreme misfortunes to which the inhabitants of Judea were especially subjected, the thousands of men, as well as women and children, that perished by the sword, by famine, and by other forms of death innumerable — all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, Daniel 9:27 stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire — all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus.

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    Re: Church Father quotes in support of my views

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    In this thread I will provide a few quotes from Church Fathers that show support for my view that the AoD (Abomination of Desolation) was fulfilled in the Roman invasion of Jerusalem 66-70 AD. I do this because I'm regularly derided for having "nonsensical" views which, if the Fathers held to them, are not "nonsensical." I'm also doing that for the sake of those who like strong references. Some regularly trash reference to Church Fathers or to historical commentators, but this is for those who like to delve into the historical depth of our biblical interpretations. Obviously, I do!

    I wish to break up some of this into separate posts, so as to avoid confusion between the various views, or to allow discussion over each position represented.

    Cyril of Jerusalem here shows that Dan 9, the 70 Weeks Prophecy, was fulfilled in the lifetime of Christ. This would suggest to me that the AoD, which followed in Dan 9, might've also been construed, by Cyril, to have been fulfilled in the generation of Christ?

    Cyril of Jerusalem (c. 313-386), Catachetecal Lectures, XII

    19. But we seek still more clearly the proof of the time of His coming. For man being hard to persuade, unless he gets the very years for a clear calculation, does not believe what is stated. What then is the season, and what the manner of the time? It is when, on the failure of the kings descended from Judah, Herod a foreigner succeeds to the kingdom? The Angel, therefore, who converses with Daniel says, and do thou now mark the words, And you shall know and understand: From the going forth of the word for making answer , and for the building of Jerusalem, until Messiah the Prince are seven weeks and three score and two weeks. Daniel 9:25 Now three score and nine weeks of years contain four hundred and eighty-three years. He said, therefore, that after the building of Jerusalem, four hundred and eighty-three years having passed, and the rulers having failed, then comes a certain king of another race, in whose time the Christ is to be born. Now Darius the Mede built the city in the sixth year of his own reign, and first year of the 66th Olympiad according to the Greeks. Olympiad is the name among the Greeks of the games celebrated after four years, because of the day which in every four years of the sun's courses is made up of the three (supernumerary) hours in each year. And Herod is king in the 186th Olympiad, in the 4th year thereof. Now from the 66th to the 186th Olympiad there are 120 Olympiads intervening, and a little over. So then the 120 Olympiads make up 480 years: for the other three years remaining are perhaps taken up in the interval between the first and fourth years. And there you have the proof according to the Scripture which says, From the going forth of the word that Jerusalem be restored and built until Messiah the Prince are seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. Of the times, therefore, you have for the present this proof, although there are also other different interpretations concerning the aforesaid weeks of years in Daniel.

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    Re: Church Father quotes in support of my views

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    then the destruction of the city and the sanctuary which follows, also takes place in the generation of Christ.
    But who is arguing that it didn't take place in this same generation of time? Yet that doesn't undeniably prove 'this generation' not passing until, that this is referring to that generation at the time. Like some of us have been trying to tell you numerous times already, and that you obviously reject, it matters what context He said that in, and when He said it in relation to everything else He said.

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    Re: Church Father quotes in support of my views

    BTW, the fact early church fathers were human just like the rest of us, thus they weren't divine, which means they could have been right about some things, and they could have been wrong about some things, the same way people today are, what makes their situation any different than the situation we still see today?

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    Re: Church Father quotes in support of my views

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    In this thread I will provide a few quotes from Church Fathers that show support for my view that the AoD (Abomination of Desolation) was fulfilled in the Roman invasion of Jerusalem 66-70 AD. I do this because I'm regularly derided for having "nonsensical" views which, if the Fathers held to them, are not "nonsensical." I'm also doing that for the sake of those who like strong references. Some regularly trash reference to Church Fathers or to historical commentators, but this is for those who like to delve into the historical depth of our biblical interpretations. Obviously, I do!

    I wish to break up some of this into separate posts, so as to avoid confusion between the various views, or to allow discussion over each position represented.
    John Chrysostom clearly saw the 70 AD destruction of the temple as a judgment against the Jews due to their rejection of Jesus. This is described both as a "great tribulation" of the Jewish People, initiated in the time, or "generation," of Christ, namely a 40 year period, while "John was still living,"--a period that is delayed by the patience of God. This is a direct association of the Olivet Discourse, and likely the "AoD," with the 70 AD destruction of the temple.

    John Chrysostom (c. 347-407) Homilies on Matthew Homily XLIII

    Because what things befell them in the time of Vespasian and Titus, were very far more grievous than those. Wherefore also He said, "There shall be great tribulation, such as never was, neither shall be."
    What then did He after these things? Since they were not willing to come, yea and also slew those that came unto them; He burns up their cities, and sent His armies and slew them.
    LXIX
    And these things He saith, declaring beforehand the things that took place under Vespasian and Titus, and that they provoked the father also, by not believing in Him; it is the father at any rate who was avenging.
    And for this reason let me add, not straightway after Christ was slain did the capture take place, but after forty years, that He might show His long suffering, when they had slain Stephen, when they had put James to death, when they had spitefully entreated the apostles.
    Seest thou the truth of the event, and its quickness? For while John was yet living, and many other of them that were with Christ, these things came to pass, and they that had heard these words were witnesses of the events.

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    Re: Church Father quotes in support of my views

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    In this thread I will provide a few quotes from Church Fathers that show support for my view that the AoD (Abomination of Desolation) was fulfilled in the Roman invasion of Jerusalem 66-70 AD. I do this because I'm regularly derided for having "nonsensical" views which, if the Fathers held to them, are not "nonsensical." I'm also doing that for the sake of those who like strong references. Some regularly trash reference to Church Fathers or to historical commentators, but this is for those who like to delve into the historical depth of our biblical interpretations. Obviously, I do!

    I wish to break up some of this into separate posts, so as to avoid confusion between the various views, or to allow discussion over each position represented.
    Here Augustine echos the common theme of the Church Fathers that Dan 9 and the 70 Weeks Prophecy referred to the time of Christ, who was the "Holy of Holies," or "Anointed." Augustine indicated, as well, that this fulfillment of Christ was to be associated with the judgment of God in ending the Jewish temple worship. Again, this connects the AoD of Dan 9 with the AoD of the Olivet Discourse. It all took place in the generation of Christ.

    Augustine of Hippo, Reply to Faustus the Manichaean, Book XII:44 (c. A.D. 390)

    44. The same Saviour is spoken of in Daniel, where the Son of man appears before the Ancient of days, and receives a kingdom without end, that all nations may serve Him. Daniel 7:13-14 In the passage quoted from Daniel by the Lord Himself, "When you shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, let him that reads understand," Matthew 24:15 the number of weeks points not only to Christ, but to the very time of His advent. With the Jews, who look to Christ for salvation as we do, but deny that He has come and suffered, we can argue from actual events. Besides the conversion of the heathen, now so universal, as prophesied of Christ in their own Scriptures, there are the events in the history of the Jews themselves. Their holy place is thrown down, the sacrifice has ceased, and the priest, and the ancient anointing; which was all clearly foretold by Daniel when he prophesied of the anointing of the Most Holy. Daniel 9:24-27 Now, that all these things have taken place, we ask the Jews for the anointed Most Holy, and they have no answer to give. But it is from the Old Testament that the Jews derive all the knowledge they have of Christ and His advent. Why do they ask John whether he is Christ? Why do they say to the Lord, "How long do you make us to doubt? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." Why do Peter and Andrew and Philip say to Nathanael, "We have found Messias, which is interpreted Christ," but because this name was known to them from the prophecies of their Scriptures? In no other nation were the kings and priests anointed, and called Anointed or Christs. Nor could this symbolic anointing be discontinued till the coming of Him who was thus prefigured. For among all their anointed ones the Jews looked for one who was to save them.

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    Re: Church Father quotes in support of my views

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    But who is arguing that it didn't take place in this same generation of time? Yet that doesn't undeniably prove 'this generation' not passing until, that this is referring to that generation at the time. Like some of us have been trying to tell you numerous times already, and that you obviously reject, it matters what context He said that in, and when He said it in relation to everything else He said.
    I didn't say anyone denied that the 70 AD destruction of the temple took place. I'm showing how the Church Fathers generally viewed the fulfillment of the AoD in both Dan 9 and the Olivet Discourse. The desolation of the city and the sanctuary in Jesus' generation was intended by God to be a judgment against Jewish worship, and thus meant the desolation of the symbol of their worship--the temple. Thus, for the Church Fathers the "abomination of desolation" was the destruction of the temple in Jesus' generation. That is how they interpreted it largely.

    Your argument, by contrast, concerns how "all the signs" fit into a single generation, which is not what the Church Fathers were concerned about. That is a Hal Lindsey thing. Lindsey was trying to predict the timing of Christ's return, which is *always* a bad thing! He was trying to prove that with his interpretation *all of the various signs listed* had to be fulfilled in the generation that will see Christ's return. He then tried to prove that indeed all of these signs were fulfilled with the "budding of the fig tree," meaning the restoration of Israel, and thus predict the return of Christ.

  13. #13
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    Re: Church Father quotes in support of my views

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    BTW, the fact early church fathers were human just like the rest of us, thus they weren't divine, which means they could have been right about some things, and they could have been wrong about some things, the same way people today are, what makes their situation any different than the situation we still see today?
    As I said, the point in this exercise is not for those who wish to discredit references like this. This is strictly for your interest in a *depth* of interpretation, using credible authorities.

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    Re: Church Father quotes in support of my views

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    In this thread I will provide a few quotes from Church Fathers that show support for my view that the AoD (Abomination of Desolation) was fulfilled in the Roman invasion of Jerusalem 66-70 AD. I do this because I'm regularly derided for having "nonsensical" views which, if the Fathers held to them, are not "nonsensical." I'm also doing that for the sake of those who like strong references. Some regularly trash reference to Church Fathers or to historical commentators, but this is for those who like to delve into the historical depth of our biblical interpretations. Obviously, I do!

    I wish to break up some of this into separate posts, so as to avoid confusion between the various views, or to allow discussion over each position represented.
    Barnabas exhibits early in the Church history an understanding of Daniel's 70th Week, seen in vs. 6, in which the temple is destroyed in 70 AD, making way for the building of a new spiritual temple for Christ. This new temple is the Church. This connects the 70th Week of Daniel, and its desolation of the temple, with the Olivet Discourse, and its desolation of the temple. Both Dan 9 and the Olivet Discourse therefore refer, in Barnabas' view, to the destruction of the temple in Jesus' time.

    Barnabas ( approx. 80-120 AD)
    Barnabas 16:1
    Moreover I will tell you likewise concerning the temple, how these
    wretched men being led astray set their hope on the building, and not
    on their God that made them, as being a house of God.
    Barnabas 16:2
    For like the Gentiles almost they consecrated Him in the temple. But
    what saith the Lord abolishing the temple? Learn ye. Who hath
    measured the heaven with a span, or hath measured the earth with
    his hand? Have not I, saith the Lord? The heaven is My throne and
    the earth the footstool of My feet. What manner of house will ye
    build for Me? Or what shall be my resting place? Ye perceive that
    their hope is vain.
    Barnabas 16:3
    Furthermore He saith again; Behold they that pulled down this
    temple themselves shall build it.
    Barnabas 16:4
    So it cometh to pass; for because they went to war it was pulled down
    by their enemies. Now also the very servants of their enemies shall
    build it up.
    Barnabas 16:5
    Again, it was revealed how the city and the temple and the people of
    Israel should be betrayed. For the scripture saith; And it shall be
    in the last days, that the Lord shall deliver up the sheep of the
    pasture and the fold and the tower thereof to destruction. And it
    came to pass as the Lord spake.
    Barnabas 16:6
    But let us enquire whether there be any temple of God. There is; in
    the place where he himself undertakes to make and finish it. For it
    is written And it shall come to pass, when the week is being
    accomplished, the temple of God shall be built gloriously in the
    name of the Lord.
    Barnabas 16:7
    I find then that there is a temple, How then shall it be built in
    the name of the Lord? Understand ye. Before we believed on God, the
    abode of our heart was corrupt and weak, a temple truly built by
    hands; for it was full of idolatry and was a house of demons, because
    we did whatsoever was contrary to God.
    Barnabas 16:8
    But it shall be built in the name of the Lord. Give heed then that
    the temple of the Lord may be built gloriously.
    Barnabas 16:9
    How? Understand ye. By receiving the remission of our sins and
    hoping on the Name we became new, created afresh from the beginning.
    Wherefore God dwelleth truly in our habitation within us. How? The
    word of his faith, the calling of his promise, the wisdom of the
    ordinances, the commandments of the teaching, He Himself prophesying
    in us, He Himself dwelling in us, opening for us who had been in
    bondage unto death the door of the temple, which is the mouth, and
    giving us repentance leadeth us to the incorruptible temple.
    Barnabas 16:10
    For he that desireth to be saved looketh not to the man, but to Him
    that dwelleth and speaketh in him, being amazed at this that he has
    never at any time heard these words from the mouth of the speaker,
    nor himself ever desired to hear them. This is the spiritual temple
    built up to the Lord.

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    Re: Church Father quotes in support of my views

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    In this thread I will provide a few quotes from Church Fathers that show support for my view that the AoD (Abomination of Desolation) was fulfilled in the Roman invasion of Jerusalem 66-70 AD. I do this because I'm regularly derided for having "nonsensical" views which, if the Fathers held to them, are not "nonsensical." I'm also doing that for the sake of those who like strong references. Some regularly trash reference to Church Fathers or to historical commentators, but this is for those who like to delve into the historical depth of our biblical interpretations. Obviously, I do!

    I wish to break up some of this into separate posts, so as to avoid confusion between the various views, or to allow discussion over each position represented.

    In effect, the Church Fathers seemed to view the 70 Weeks Prophecy of Dan 9 as completely fulfilled in the time of Christ. This would naturally include the AoD as something fulfilled immediately following the death of Christ, since in this prophecy the AoD immediately follows the completion of the 70 Weeks.

    The Church Fathers also saw Jesus as the "Unction," or "Anointed," or "Holy of Holies, as described in the Dan 9 prophecy. And they saw the consequence of Jewish rejection of Jesus as the "Anointed One" as the desolation of Jerusalem, the temple, and the Jewish People. The Jewish People were viewed as dispersed, the temple worship was viewed as terminated with the destruction of its buildings, and the destruction of Jerusalem was viewed as the beginning of a period of Jewish separation from God.

    In all of these quotes the assumption seems to be made that the desolation of Jerusalem and the temple, in consequence for rejecting Christ, is the Abomination of Desolation in both Dan 9 and the Olivet Discourse. The "desolation" of Jerusalem is in fact the abomination of "desolation." And the "desolation" of the temple is in fact the abomination of "desolation."

    The following quotes will show these things, although some assumptions are being made by me. I obtained these quotations from a variety of places on the internet, and thus are easily accessible.
    Church fathers of what church?


    Jude
    If Jesus had preached the same message that ministers preach today, He would never have been crucified.

    ~ Leonard Ravenhill




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