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Thread: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

  1. #16

    Re: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I didn't start with a SPECIFIC criticism. I went into detail afterwards.
    Specific criticism is good and constructive. I was referring to your full post.

    There are indeed a mass of alternatives, including many which don't include any Caesar's or co-emperors.
    Why even do you think the 4 horsemen must be directly connected?
    You need to ask yourself what they symbolise first.
    I think they are connected because:
    1) they are all introduced by one of the four living creatures
    2) they all ride on horses
    3) the 4th rider has power over 1/4 of the earth -- implying that the other 3 may have power over the other 3/4.

    Using the sword was the way people killed each other until the last couple of hundred years.
    Why civil war?
    1) I thought the 2nd seal should be distinguished from the 1st seal, which represents war where one country attacks another country.
    2) It says men would slay "one another", which makes me think of people killing people beside them, rather than people far away.

    God didn't decree significant inflation. It states a very simple day's food for a day's work. Where is inflation in that?
    The denarius is a coin, and may be a day's wages, but not always. I found one source where it cost about 0.17 denarii for the same amount of wheat in AD 275 in Egypt. That's a lot less.

    I didn't note what you put for the 4th seal.
    ok

    There are martyrs being killed today. You have narrowly focused on one period of Persecution within the Roman Empire. It is not a picture about a single instance of Persecution, but about the persecution over time hence the number not yet complete.
    Yes, I have only focused on one ten year period. It was called the Great Persecution because it was so severe. Theoretically, the 5th seal could be opened at any time after the first martyr Stephen died and before the great day of God's wrath, so your point does not invalidate a possible date of say AD 305. As for vengeance, the martyrs at that time were avenged. But you could be right about God telling them to rest "a little while" referring to a period of time that continues until the great day of God's wrath.

  2. #17
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    Re: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    Thanks for your feedback. The difficulty with 4 horsemen being 4 angels is that they cannot be identified by humans, but I see your point about these types of problems being present in history. I looked into the price of wheat and was somewhat forced to conclude that the only time period for the 3rd seal was around 300 AD. The denarius is a coin, that has long since depreciated to a negligible value and is no longer legal tender, which also seems to limit the literal fulfillment to that time period. There are thousands of possible symbolic fulfillments, so I thought interpreting the four horsemen as a tightly-knit group is essential.
    I'm not sure the identification of the 4 horsemen as angels is a matter of mankind actually witnessing spiritual beings themselves! Rather, we may recognize that invisible forces are at work in the things they are doing. The 4 horsemen are associated with the living creatures, which appear to be cherubim. We are to recognize that these cherubim, or living creatures, are behind the activities of the 4 horsemen. This is what is explicitly said!

    I do find the parallel in more immediate history with the 5 seals interesting, and I've seen "double fulfillments" like this before. For example, some have found that even though the 7 churches in Asia Minor John addressed were literal churches at that time, there is a dual fulfillment in following eras of the Church, seeming to emphasize these kinds of developments. For example, we may be now in the "Laodicean age!"

    But I prefer to emphasize the more literal meaning, as interesting as these "dual fulfillments" are. I just wouldn't ignore the parallels that you are spelling out. They show an interesting way that God's word applies more universally than in just one particular way.

    I do think God showed, in Zechariah, that He uses ungodly governments to impose order in society, and to establish peace in the world, for the progress of the gospel. But the consequence of having ungodly governments is divine plagues on earth, and great turmoil among nations. And I do think that's the point here.

    We shouldn't trust in the governments of Man. Instead, we need to see how God uses governments today, intending to lead towards something better--the Kingdom of God.

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    Re: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    It sounds like you are equating the seals, trumpets and bowls with the Great Tribulation. 42 months are mentioned in Revelation 11:2 AFTER the sixth trumpet. The wars, famines, and martyrdom in Matthew 24 happen in the verses before the abomination of desolation is set up. We may disagree, but thank you for expressing your point of view.
    Which means you don't get that Revelation is not in Chronological Order, and until you do its going to be hard to comprehend.

    Rev. 1 is the Glory of Jesus, Rev. 2 and 3 the Church Age on earth. Rev. 4 and 5 is the Church/Bride in Heaven before the Seals have been opened.

    Rev. 6, 7, 8, 9, 15&16 are the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments.

    Rev. 20, 21 and 22 finishes out th book of Rev. The Judgment Seat, the New Jerusalem and ever after.

    Rev. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are Parenthetical Citations or set-a-side things that happened during the Judgment Chapters Above.

    Rev. 12, 13, 17 and 18 all start in Rev. ch. 6 with the First Seal being opened.

    Rev. 11 is all about the Two-witnesses Ministry, since they die before the Beast their 1260 day period of service has to start BEFORE the Beast comes to power, because he dies after they die. The 2nd Woe mentioned in Rev. 11 happens in Rev. 9, the 3rd Woe (7th Trump) of Rev. 11 happens during Rev. 16.

    Nothing before Matthew 24:15 happens during the 70th week.

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    Re: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    Do you mean that all 5 seals were opened around AD 33, before Stephen was killed? If that were the case, there would be no souls of Christian martyrs under the altar yet. I think it is after AD 95, because in Revelation 4:1, the voice says: “Come up here, and I will show you the things which must happen after this.”

    If the seals meant wars, famines, plagues, and economic disasters in general, what changed after the opening of the seals? These things happened before the time of Christ too.
    From a plain reading of Revelation 5, then yes; Jesus opened the first Five Seals circa 33 AD. But not yet the Sixth Seal, the terrible world changer, soon to come; of a similar magnitude as Noah's Flood.
    As for the souls of the martyrs, I would think that Abel's soul would be under the heavenly altar. Jesus refers to all the saints until His day in Matthew 23:35, Also look at Zechariah 1:8-10 and 6:1-7
    And, sure there was those problems before 1 AD, but not to the same extent. Since then, there has been wars, famines and plagues that have brought mankind to the brink of extinction.

  5. #20

    Re: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm not sure the identification of the 4 horsemen as angels is a matter of mankind actually witnessing spiritual beings themselves! Rather, we may recognize that invisible forces are at work in the things they are doing. The 4 horsemen are associated with the living creatures, which appear to be cherubim. We are to recognize that these cherubim, or living creatures, are behind the activities of the 4 horsemen. This is what is explicitly said!
    I haven't thought of the four living creatures doing stuff like that. They seem like a special worship team. Worth pondering.

    I do find the parallel in more immediate history with the 5 seals interesting, and I've seen "double fulfillments" like this before. For example, some have found that even though the 7 churches in Asia Minor John addressed were literal churches at that time, there is a dual fulfillment in following eras of the Church, seeming to emphasize these kinds of developments. For example, we may be now in the "Laodicean age!"

    But I prefer to emphasize the more literal meaning, as interesting as these "dual fulfillments" are. I just wouldn't ignore the parallels that you are spelling out. They show an interesting way that God's word applies more universally than in just one particular way.
    I'm still skeptical about the church era interpretation, but I do see that the sequence of the 7 letters was intricately planned. I also prefer literal and verifiable fulfillments. I thought the AD 300 explanation was very literal. Thanks for considering it.

    I do think God showed, in Zechariah, that He uses ungodly governments to impose order in society, and to establish peace in the world, for the progress of the gospel. But the consequence of having ungodly governments is divine plagues on earth, and great turmoil among nations. And I do think that's the point here.

    We shouldn't trust in the governments of Man. Instead, we need to see how God uses governments today, intending to lead towards something better--the Kingdom of God.
    How true! When we compare the governments of Man with the kingdom of God, we realize how blessed it is to have such a good King!

  6. #21

    Re: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    Which means you don't get that Revelation is not in Chronological Order, and until you do its going to be hard to comprehend.
    I agree that the book of Revelation is not fully in chronological order, but parts of it are chronological e.g. the first seal is opened before the 5th seal.

    Rev. 1 is the Glory of Jesus, Rev. 2 and 3 the Church Age on earth. Rev. 4 and 5 is the Church/Bride in Heaven before the Seals have been opened.
    I agree that the seals have not been opened yet in Rev. 4 and 5. Do you equate the Church/Bride with John, the 4 living creatures, or the 24 elders? I don't see a clear identification of the Church/Bride in Rev. 4 and 5.

    Rev. 6, 7, 8, 9, 15&16 are the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments.

    Rev. 20, 21 and 22 finishes out th book of Rev. The Judgment Seat, the New Jerusalem and ever after.

    Rev. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and 19 are Parenthetical Citations or set-a-side things that happened during the Judgment Chapters Above.
    I agree that some chapters are out of chronological order here. The clearest example is the male child being born (Jesus Christ) in Rev. 12, which has to be in the past.

    Rev. 12, 13, 17 and 18 all start in Rev. ch. 6 with the First Seal being opened.
    You mentioned the first seal was openend at the midpoint of the 7 years, but Chapter 6 does not mention 42 months or 1260 days. You have placed the 4 horsemen's influence at the same time as the beast's reign. Are the 4 horsemen working for God or the beast? They are not mentioned among the 10 horns.

    Rev. 11 is all about the Two-witnesses Ministry, since they die before the Beast their 1260 day period of service has to start BEFORE the Beast comes to power, because he dies after they die. The 2nd Woe mentioned in Rev. 11 happens in Rev. 9, the 3rd Woe (7th Trump) of Rev. 11 happens during Rev. 16.
    Your statement assumes that the beast would not tolerate the two witnesses prophesying during his reign, which is fair. I think the 1260 day period (11:3) is at the same time as the 42 months that the holy city is being trampled (11:2). I think it is trampled during the second half of the 7 years. What do you think of the timing of the trampling? The witnesses will die after 1260 days. They will rise 3.5 days later. The beast will be destroyed before the end of 42 months. Note that 42 months is less precise than 1260 days, if we allow for rounding to the nearest month. I agree with your assessment of the 2nd and 3rd woes.

    Nothing before Matthew 24:15 happens during the 70th week.
    But they are similar to the seals. Wars are in both the first part of Matthew 24 and in the seals. Same with scarcity of food and martyrs. You said the seals were in the 70th week.

  7. #22

    Re: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    From a plain reading of Revelation 5, then yes; Jesus opened the first Five Seals circa 33 AD. But not yet the Sixth Seal, the terrible world changer, soon to come; of a similar magnitude as Noah's Flood.
    As for the souls of the martyrs, I would think that Abel's soul would be under the heavenly altar. Jesus refers to all the saints until His day in Matthew 23:35, Also look at Zechariah 1:8-10 and 6:1-7
    And, sure there was those problems before 1 AD, but not to the same extent. Since then, there has been wars, famines and plagues that have brought mankind to the brink of extinction.
    Abel's soul could be under the altar, I agree. I haven't quite figured out how Zechariah 1:8-10 and 6:1-7 relates. Are the four living creatures the four spirits?

    Romans 8:22 NIV says "We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time." So you think the seals bring increasing intensity.

  8. #23
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    Re: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    I agree that the book of Revelation is not fully in chronological order, but parts of it are chronological e.g. the first seal is opened before the 5th seal.
    Yes indeed, after Rev. 5 if we just incorporate the Judgments until we get to Rev. ch. 20 we thus get the perfect order of the Book of Revelation (BoR).

    I agree that the seals have not been opened yet in Rev. 4 and 5. Do you equate the Church/Bride with John, the 4 living creatures, or the 24 elders? I don't see a clear identification of the Church/Bride in Rev. 4 and 5.
    John was only seeing the "FUTURE" so of course John will be there and since no one goes to Heaven until the Dead are raised, and then those of us alive are Raptured all at the same time, the 24 Elders can only be the Elders of the Church. We see in Rev. 4:4 that they have on "White Raiment" and in Rev. 19:8 we are told that the "FINE LINEN, CLEAN and White" represents the Saints.

    Then in Rev. 5:8-10 we again see the Elders and the Saints praising God and uttering that He has REDEEMED them out of every Nation on earth.

    Rev. 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

    Then in Rev. 7:9-17 we see the same Multitude in Heaven before the Lord, but after the Seals have been opened.

    8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

    9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

    10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
    The sentiment is true, however I think everything after Rev. 4:1 is FUTURE EVENTS/Prophecy. Rev. 12:1-5 is not Prophecy, it is past events used IN CODE (Genesis 37:9) and Gospel passages of course, tell us the Woman is Israel, the Dragon = Satan and the Male Child = Jesus, it's not really meant as a real time event, it is put forth as code because Rome did not want to hear the fact that Israel was still alive and thriving (later on) and that the world would be destroyed, so Babylon was put forth as the KEY CODE WORD elsewhere for the same purposes. Rome didn't want to hear that Jesus was still alive, so they used male child etc. etc. The Prophecy is about Israel Fleeing Judea in the END TIMES however, and thus is a future prophetic uttering in reality.

    You mentioned the first seal was openend at the midpoint of the 7 years, but Chapter 6 does not mention 42 months or 1260 days. You have placed the 4 horsemen's influence at the same time as the beast's reign. Are the 4 horsemen working for God or the beast? They are not mentioned among the 10 horns.
    All Four Horsemen are a result of the coming Anti-Christ and the First Seal even represents him specifically as a White Horse which means Conqueror, and we are told he is released to go forth Conquering and to Conquer. Jesus is on a White Horse because he is going to go forth Conquering also, people confuse the symbolism here. In Rev. 6 and Rev. 12 two different words are used for the CROWN(S) they are wearing, in Rev. 6 it represent a WREATH like crown won as a prize, in Rev. 19 the Greek word used is Diadem and means one "is of Royalty", and the Rev. 19 rider has MANY CROWNS whereas the Rev. 6 rider just has the one crown.

    The Red Horse takes PEACE AWAY (The Anti-Christ comes to power via FAKE PEACE see Dan. 8:25 and Dan. 9:27). The Black Horse is Famine and Wars cause Famine. And finally Death and THE GRAVE are a byproduct of the Anti-Christ/Little Horn, he kills 1.5 to 2 billion people on earth in order to subjugate it unto himself. So all the Horses are about the Anti-Christ himself, we see this tyrants handy work in Seal #5 of course.

    We know the Beast rules for 42 Months so if he goes forth Conquering at Seal #1 then it has to start at the Midway point of the 70th week, which is when the Beast arises out of the Sea (Rev. 13) and when the Woman (Israel) in Rev. 12 Flee from the Beast, from Judea to Petra, both for 1260 days. The Four Horsemen only represents what Jesus is RELEASING when he opens up all of the Seals !!

    1.) The White Horse Conqueror = the Anti-Christ Conquering.

    2.) The Red Horse who takes peace away = the Anti-Christ reneging on all of his peace agreements (Dan. 9:27).

    3.) The Black Horse of Famine = The Anti-Christ's Wars, which sadly cause famine when men war they don't raise food, they destroy, they hide etc. etc.

    4.) The Pale Green Horse of Death and the Grave (Hades means the Grave) = The Anti-Christ who kills 1.5 to 2 Billion people.

    The "Four Horsemen" are among the 10 Horns, they ARE the Anti-Christ/Little Horn/Beast's byproduct. They in essence are The Anti-Christ !!

    Your statement assumes that the beast would not tolerate the two witnesses prophesying during his reign, which is fair. I think the 1260 day period (11:3) is at the same time as the 42 months that the holy city is being trampled (11:2). I think it is trampled during the second half of the 7 years. What do you think of the timing of the trampling? The witnesses will die after 1260 days. They will rise 3.5 days later. The beast will be destroyed before the end of 42 months. Note that 42 months is less precise than 1260 days, if we allow for rounding to the nearest month. I agree with your assessment of the 2nd and 3rd woes.
    Well, not really, no one can touch the Two-witnesses until God allows it, they do prophesy during his reign as a Tyrant. What I am saying is Rev. 11:3 is not a real time event as many seem to think, but instead a Parenthetical Citation. The Two-witnesses show up BEFORE Rev. chapter 6, when the Beast Arises out of the Sea as the Conqueror. I come to this conclusion by mathematical logistics. If both have 1260 day ministries/reign, and one dies BEFORE the other, then one also has to SHOW UP BEFORE the other also, else the 1260 days are not fulfilled. The Two-witnesses die at the 2nd Woe, the Beast dies at the 7th Vial, thus the Two-witnesses have to show up before the Beast is released to go forth Conquering, and that is just what Malachi 4:5-6 says happens.

    Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

    The Day of the Lord STARTS at Seal #6. Elijah thus is sent to turn Israel unto repentance BEFORE the Beast is released, thus when they see the AoD at the 1290, the Jews who repent will understand that they must Flee Judea unto Petra !! Then when the Beast is released at the 1260, they will be protected by God in Petra. The City is indeed trampled under foot for 42 months, that is how the Anti-Christ becomes the Beast, but it happen in Rev. ch. 6. The Two-witnesses die after the 2nd Woe, that is thus when their 1260 days is ip, but not when the Beasts 1260 days is up, obviously. The 42 months = 1260 days exactly.

    But they are similar to the seals. Wars are in both the first part of Matthew 24 and in the seals. Same with scarcity of food and martyrs. You said the seals were in the 70th week.
    Well wars are wars, but the Anti-Christ's reign will kill 2 billion people. Matthew 24:15 is the first time period that Matt. 24 is in the 70th Week.

    God Bless.

  9. #24
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    Re: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    Abel's soul could be under the altar, I agree. I haven't quite figured out how Zechariah 1:8-10 and 6:1-7 relates. Are the four living creatures the four spirits?

    Romans 8:22 NIV says "We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time." So you think the seals bring increasing intensity.
    Yes, I do relate the 2 mentions of the 'four horsemen' in Zechariah to Revelation 6:1-8. They are spiritual things, what they cause is the effects described.
    And yes again, their effects will and have, increased in intensity as we approach the end times. They are the 'labor pangs' of the new age.

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    Re: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    I haven't thought of the four living creatures doing stuff like that. They seem like a special worship team. Worth pondering.



    I'm still skeptical about the church era interpretation, but I do see that the sequence of the 7 letters was intricately planned. I also prefer literal and verifiable fulfillments. I thought the AD 300 explanation was very literal. Thanks for considering it.

    How true! When we compare the governments of Man with the kingdom of God, we realize how blessed it is to have such a good King!
    I don't at all reject your AD 300 explanation. It may have been how the Holy Spirit intended it to follow in the immediate history after the giving of John's Revelation. When I say I prefer the more literal approach, I'm certainly not saying your application is not literal. By "more literal" I'm only saying that the 4 horsemen are not, in the passage, given dates at all. Thus, the Holy Spirit can apply these truths in any way He sees fit. Your way of applying this is a very logical, and a very literal, way--just not a matter of literally interpreting dates that are given. I really do appreciate your spending the time to show the parallels!

  11. #26

    Re: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    Yes indeed, after Rev. 5 if we just incorporate the Judgments until we get to Rev. ch. 20 we thus get the perfect order of the Book of Revelation (BoR).
    I think of the sun, moon, stars at the 6th seal and the great multitude to be anachronistic previews for introducing the 144,000. The 1st trumpet follows the 7th seal, but the 1st vial precedes the 7th trumpet. I also think Rev ch 21 goes back to the beginning of the millennium.

    John was only seeing the "FUTURE" so of course John will be there and since no one goes to Heaven until the Dead are raised, and then those of us alive are Raptured all at the same time, the 24 Elders can only be the Elders of the Church. We see in Rev. 4:4 that they have on "White Raiment" and in Rev. 19:8 we are told that the "FINE LINEN, CLEAN and White" represents the Saints.
    I think the elders are the 12 sons of Israel and the 12 apostles, just because they are the most prominent group of 24 people (their names are in the gates and foundations of the walls of the New Jerusalem). I disagree with your claim that no one goes to Heaven until the Dead are raised. Counterexample: the martyrs from the 5th seal.

    Then in Rev. 5:8-10 we again see the Elders and the Saints praising God and uttering that He has REDEEMED them out of every Nation on earth.

    Rev. 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
    Then in Rev. 7:9-17 we see the same Multitude in Heaven before the Lord, but after the Seals have been opened.[/quote]

    Did you emphasize REDEEMED to say that they are Christians? Or that it was past tense? I agree that they are Christians. I only see elders, and no other saints in Rev. 5:8-10 praising God. The elders can speak on behalf of the church, but I don't think they ARE the church in her entirety.

    To be precise, the multitude appears before the 7th seal is opened. But as I mentioned above, I think this is an anachronistic preview.

    The sentiment is true, however I think everything after Rev. 4:1 is FUTURE EVENTS/Prophecy. Rev. 12:1-5 is not Prophecy, it is past events used IN CODE (Genesis 37:9) and Gospel passages of course, tell us the Woman is Israel, the Dragon = Satan and the Male Child = Jesus, it's not really meant as a real time event, it is put forth as code because Rome did not want to hear the fact that Israel was still alive and thriving (later on) and that the world would be destroyed, so Babylon was put forth as the KEY CODE WORD elsewhere for the same purposes. Rome didn't want to hear that Jesus was still alive, so they used male child etc. etc. The Prophecy is about Israel Fleeing Judea in the END TIMES however, and thus is a future prophetic uttering in reality.
    Agreed. Except I am hesitant to equate Babylon with Rome.

    All Four Horsemen are a result of the coming Anti-Christ and the First Seal even represents him specifically as a White Horse which means Conqueror, and we are told he is released to go forth Conquering and to Conquer. Jesus is on a White Horse because he is going to go forth Conquering also, people confuse the symbolism here. In Rev. 6 and Rev. 12 two different words are used for the CROWN(S) they are wearing, in Rev. 6 it represent a WREATH like crown won as a prize, in Rev. 19 the Greek word used is Diadem and means one "is of Royalty", and the Rev. 19 rider has MANY CROWNS whereas the Rev. 6 rider just has the one crown.
    When Jesus opens the first seal, it should be a demonstration of His authority and right to open the scroll. He should be preparing for His rule with each seal. In the past, God has used countries like Assyria to humble the proud. I'm thinking about the concept of Jesus' opening the seal to present the Anti-Christ, and whether or not it makes sense. It kind of works when we consider 2 Thessalonians 2, how the Man of Sin needs to be revealed first.

    The Red Horse takes PEACE AWAY (The Anti-Christ comes to power via FAKE PEACE see Dan. 8:25 and Dan. 9:27). The Black Horse is Famine and Wars cause Famine. And finally Death and THE GRAVE are a byproduct of the Anti-Christ/Little Horn, he kills 1.5 to 2 billion people on earth in order to subjugate it unto himself. So all the Horses are about the Anti-Christ himself, we see this tyrants handy work in Seal #5 of course.
    We are agreed that Seal #5 is a consequence of Seal #4. Note that the 4th seal does not say the 1/4 of the people will die. It says Death has power over 1/4 of the earth, not 1/4 of the people. There will be many people killed in 1/4 of the earth, but not necessarily all of them.

    We know the Beast rules for 42 Months so if he goes forth Conquering at Seal #1 then it has to start at the Midway point of the 70th week, which is when the Beast arises out of the Sea (Rev. 13) and when the Woman (Israel) in Rev. 12 Flee from the Beast, from Judea to Petra, both for 1260 days. The Four Horsemen only represents what Jesus is RELEASING when he opens up all of the Seals !![/quote]
    I agree that the Beast rules for the second half of the 70th week.

    1.) The White Horse Conqueror = the Anti-Christ Conquering.

    2.) The Red Horse who takes peace away = the Anti-Christ reneging on all of his peace agreements (Dan. 9:27).

    3.) The Black Horse of Famine = The Anti-Christ's Wars, which sadly cause famine when men war they don't raise food, they destroy, they hide etc. etc.

    4.) The Pale Green Horse of Death and the Grave (Hades means the Grave) = The Anti-Christ who kills 1.5 to 2 Billion people.

    The "Four Horsemen" are among the 10 Horns, they ARE the Anti-Christ/Little Horn/Beast's byproduct. They in essence are The Anti-Christ !!
    Thanks for your explanation.


    Well, not really, no one can touch the Two-witnesses until God allows it, they do prophesy during his reign as a Tyrant. What I am saying is Rev. 11:3 is not a real time event as many seem to think, but instead a Parenthetical Citation. The Two-witnesses show up BEFORE Rev. chapter 6, when the Beast Arises out of the Sea as the Conqueror. I come to this conclusion by mathematical logistics. If both have 1260 day ministries/reign, and one dies BEFORE the other, then one also has to SHOW UP BEFORE the other also, else the 1260 days are not fulfilled. The Two-witnesses die at the 2nd Woe, the Beast dies at the 7th Vial, thus the Two-witnesses have to show up before the Beast is released to go forth Conquering, and that is just what Malachi 4:5-6 says happens.

    Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

    The Day of the Lord STARTS at Seal #6. Elijah thus is sent to turn Israel unto repentance BEFORE the Beast is released, thus when they see the AoD at the 1290, the Jews who repent will understand that they must Flee Judea unto Petra !! Then when the Beast is released at the 1260, they will be protected by God in Petra. The City is indeed trampled under foot for 42 months, that is how the Anti-Christ becomes the Beast, but it happen in Rev. ch. 6. The Two-witnesses die after the 2nd Woe, that is thus when their 1260 days is ip, but not when the Beasts 1260 days is up, obviously. The 42 months = 1260 days exactly.
    You are confusing me here. You said the two witnesses do prophesy during the Beast's reign as a tyrant, but you put the witnesses in the first half of the 7 years and the Beast's reign in the second half. This seems like a contradiction. I think the 1260 days of the prophecy match exactly with the 1260 days that the woman is in the wilderness. Fleeing to Petra -- do you have a Bible reference for this? I think Israel will face trouble again after 1260 days, which is why Jesus again tells the inhabitants of Jerusalem to flee when His feet touch down on the Mount of Olives in Zechariah 14.

    Well wars are wars, but the Anti-Christ's reign will kill 2 billion people. Matthew 24:15 is the first time period that Matt. 24 is in the 70th Week.
    God Bless.
    God bless.

  12. #27

    Re: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

    Thinking about why Jesus would send seal judgments in anticipation of his authority. Seems odd to empower the beast. I can accept his releasing the beast or not restraining it. If the seal judgments were indeed related to the Great Persecution in AD 303 to AD 313, perhaps it fulfills this Bible verse:

    1 Peter 4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God. If it begins first with us, what will happen to those who don’t obey the Good News of God?

  13. #28
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    Re: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    Thinking about why Jesus would send seal judgments in anticipation of his authority. Seems odd to empower the beast. I can accept his releasing the beast or not restraining it. If the seal judgments were indeed related to the Great Persecution in AD 303 to AD 313, perhaps it fulfills this Bible verse:

    1 Peter 4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God. If it begins first with us, what will happen to those who don’t obey the Good News of God?
    Israel was the prototypical "house of God." It doesn't have to mean a "good house," or an "obedient house." It is just the "house" where God at the time chose to dwell.

    And so, God's 1st people were Israel, and God's NT judgment began with them, because their religion under the Law had become perfunctory, weak, and filled with corruption. Their religion was taken away in 70 AD, and they were dispersed throughout the nations. The land lay vacant of "God's People," the Jews, while God gathered up new Peoples of God among the Gentiles. Christian nations were born that I equally considered "God's Peoples."

    And so, as the European Christian nations have followed the same pattern as Israel, being God's Peoples, they also have been entering into judgment, which precedes the Day of God's Wrath, the eschatological Day of the Lord. Judgment had truly begun with the territory where the Church has impressed upon the culture Christian values, and Christian governments were initiated.

    European nations have been through all sorts of judgments, including the judgment of the Christian Roman Empire, and judgments experienced throughout the history of Christian Europe. In our day, it seems all trace of Christianity is being rooted out of European culture, and is setting things up for the judgment associated with the Day of the Lord. But both Catholicism and Protestantism still reigns, to some degree, in the West, and Eastern Orthodoxy still exists, to some extent, in the East. Judgment is coming to what I believe is the "Great Harlot," along with judgment to destroy the Antichrist.

  14. #29
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    Re: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    Thinking about why Jesus would send seal judgments in anticipation of his authority. Seems odd to empower the beast. I can accept his releasing the beast or not restraining it. If the seal judgments were indeed related to the Great Persecution in AD 303 to AD 313, perhaps it fulfills this Bible verse:

    1 Peter 4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God. If it begins first with us, what will happen to those who don’t obey the Good News of God?
    But God did

    Rev 17:16-17
    16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled.

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    Re: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    I think of the sun, moon, stars at the 6th seal and the great multitude to be anachronistic previews for introducing the 144,000. The 1st trumpet follows the 7th seal, but the 1st vial precedes the 7th trumpet. I also think Rev ch 21 goes back to the beginning of the millennium.
    Not at all brother, the Seals, Trumpets and Vials are linear in nature, they are not portrating other time periods per se. The 144,000 are Metaphoric in nature. Here is what I see it as meaning, if you can follow the logic you can see it/THEY, fit in place perfectly here. Lets say the 144,000 are the Jews Fleeing Judea. Then read Rev. chapters 6, 7 and 8 at one reading and what do we get, IF we look at the 144,000 as the Fleeing Jews ? WE GET THIS.

    First Four Seals are the Anti-Christ and the Jews flee at the 1290 which is 30 days before the 1260. Jesus opens the 6th Sea to let the world know they are in Gods Wrath, which I think begins with the 1st Seal. Then in Chapter 7, God orders the Angels to HOLD OFF on the Trumpet Judgments (Hurt not the earth, trees or the seas until I seal the 144,000) until He has protected the Jews who are fleeing Judea and on their way to Petra/Wilderness. Rgen we are given the 12 tribes of Israel and tld 12,000 from each tribe are these 144,000. The number 12 is fullness, and thus 12 x 12,000 x 12 = ALL ISRAEL being SAVED, not every Jew bit Israel as a Nation being saved. Then after they are protected.......

    We see the Church/Bride in Heaven in verses 7:9-17, and then in chapter 8 the 7th Seal is opened which brings forth the 7 Trumpet Judgments, so God held the Judgments which we know by reading them HURTS the Trees, Seas and the Earth. Thus God ordered these Judgments to be be held up until He made sure they made it unto Petra, their safe zone.

    So the 144,000 is a Metaphor for the 1/3 of the Jews who repent and Flee Judea, just as Matt. 24 and Zechariah 1:9 say.

    I think the elders are the 12 sons of Israel and the 12 apostles, just because they are the most prominent group of 24 people (their names are in the gates and foundations of the walls of the New Jerusalem). I disagree with your claim that no one goes to Heaven until the Dead are raised. Counterexample: the martyrs from the 5th seal.
    The Martyrs from the 5th Seal are a prime example of people allowing Men's Traditions to overwhelm their thought process. They are specifically told when given their robes that they must WAIT until their fellow brothers have been killed in like manner as they were, thus they must wait until the Beasts 42 months reign of terror is over. The people in Revelation 7:9-17 came out of the 2000 some odd year Church Age Tribulation, and Jesus told us we would have CONTINUAL TRIBULATION, thus the 2000 some odd year Church Age is 2000 years of tribulation, thus those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 came out of the Church Age period and 2000 is GREATER than 7 as in 2000>7. Those Martyrs will be raised and judged in Rev. 20:4, go read it, those that died whilst REFUSING the Mark of the Beast will serve with Jesus for 1000 years ON EARTH !! So that is when they are raised and Judged, it is plain as day. People who go by Men's Tradition MANDATE that "Greatest" can only mean the Greatest ever troubles, but John was speaking about the GREATEST EVER PERIOD of Tribulation. The 2000 year Church Age Period.

    Bu the time above however the Rapture will already have happened, that is where the Rev. 7:9-17 Saints come from, not the Tribulation Martyrs as you assume. As per the 12 and 12 I disagree, Daniel was specifically told he would be raised up at THE END in Dan. ch. 12 and stand in his lot with the rest of the Israelis/Jews. The Elders are Elders of the Church of Christ Jesus. We are Raptured to marry the Lamb, the Jews are already married to God. As per the Rapture, we are told the DEAD rise first then we who are alive are raptured and we all meet Jesus in the air.

    Then in Rev. 7:9-17 we see the same Multitude in Heaven before the Lord, but after the Seals have been opened.
    Did you emphasize REDEEMED to say that they are Christians? Or that it was past tense? I agree that they are Christians. I only see elders, and no other saints in Rev. 5:8-10 praising God. The elders can speak on behalf of the church, but I don't think they ARE the church in her entirety.

    To be precise, the multitude appears before the 7th seal is opened. But as I mentioned above, I think this is an anachronistic preview.[QUOTE]

    The Prayers are the payers of the Saints, the Elders are the Church, the Church are all Raptured at ONE TIME, people don't die and go straight to Heaven, thus when you see the Elders that mean ALL THE CHURCH is in Heaven, just as Rev. 7:9-17 shows. They are the REDEEMED meaning they are the Bride of Christ.

    Agreed. Except I am hesitant to equate Babylon with Rome.
    For some reason I quoted the WRONG Quote with this ANSWER..........This below in red was mean to be the Question/Quote and the Answer

    I agree that some chapters are out of chronological order here. The clearest example is the male child being born (Jesus Christ) in Rev. 12, which has to be in the past.

    MY ANSWER WAS THIS BELOW IN BLACK BOLD:

    The sentiment is true, however I think everything after Rev. 4:1 is FUTURE EVENTS/Prophecy. Rev. 12:1-5 is not Prophecy, it is past events used IN CODE (Genesis 37:9) and Gospel passages of course, tell us the Woman is Israel, the Dragon = Satan and the Male Child = Jesus, it's not really meant as a real time event, it is put forth as code because Rome did not want to hear the fact that Israel was still alive and thriving (later on) and that the world would be destroyed, so Babylon was put forth as the KEY CODE WORD elsewhere for the same purposes. Rome didn't want to hear that Jesus was still alive, so they used male child etc. etc. The Prophecy is about Israel Fleeing Judea in the END TIMES however, and thus is a future prophetic uttering in reality.

    So as you see, the answer now makes more sense as pertaining to that. Nevertheless I will answer.

    Agreed. Except I am hesitant to equate Babylon with Rome.
    Look at Rev. 16:19, when God defeats the NATIONS He calls them Babylon so Babylon = the Whole World or Satan's Rule on this evil world. Mw look back at the 6th Vial and you have the Kings of the East (Persia/Iran and Iraq) and the KINGS OF THE WHOLE WORLD are gathered unto Armageddon.

    When Jesus opens the first seal, it should be a demonstration of His authority and right to open the scroll. He should be preparing for His rule with each seal. In the past, God has used countries like Assyria to humble the proud. I'm thinking about the concept of Jesus' opening the seal to present the Anti-Christ, and whether or not it makes sense. It kind of works when we consider 2 Thessalonians 2, how the Man of Sin needs to be revealed first.
    The First Seal begins the Wrath of God (Day of the Lord) on Mankind, we are not looking for Jesus to reign until after the 7th Vial. We are however looking for the Wrath of God. Thus the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments bring forth God's Wrath. The Revelation means the REVEALING, and as you cite 2 Thees. 2, as I was about to before I saw you did, that indeed fits. Thus the Woman (Rev. 12) Flees Judea in Rev. 6, the Beast Arises (Rev. 13) in Rev. 6, the Harlot (Rev. 17) is DESTROYED/JUDGED in Rev. 6 when the Beast does away with All False Religions while destroying ALL RELIGIONS in order to be Worshiped as the ONLY GOD !! And finally (Rev. 18) Babylon (Whole World) is Destroyed/Burned starting in Rev. 6 with the First Vial and Babylon finally falls when Jesus shows up at the 7th Vial in Rev. 16. So Rev. 18 is ALL the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments destroying Babylon or Satan's Dark Kingdom on this earth, thus Jesus takes over once and for all. Babylon is Judged in Rev. chapter 18. Thus Babylon and the Harlot are 2 Different Entities.

    We are agreed that Seal #5 is a consequence of Seal #4. Note that the 4th seal does not say the 1/4 of the people will die. It says Death has power over 1/4 of the earth, not 1/4 of the people. There will be many people killed in 1/4 of the earth, but not necessarily all of them.

    We know the Beast rules for 42 Months so if he goes forth Conquering at Seal #1 then it has to start at the Midway point of the 70th week, which is when the Beast arises out of the Sea (Rev. 13) and when the Woman (Israel) in Rev. 12 Flee from the Beast, from Judea to Petra, both for 1260 days. The Four Horsemen only represents what Jesus is RELEASING when he opens up all of the Seals !!
    I agree that the Beast rules for the second half of the 70th week./QUOTE]

    And that means 1/4 of all the world is going to die. That is the way Prophesy works, else God could be talking about Antarctica where no one lives. The Beast is going to Wipe out all World Religions, thus Islam will be wiped off the face of the map, and that will call for killing the Muslim fanatics who will die for Allah this very day for no reason !! God never confuses us, it is 1/4 of all mankind that die, just like it is 1/3 of all mankind that dies in the 2nd Woe.

    Thanks for your explanation.
    YW

    You are confusing me here. You said the two witnesses do prophesy during the Beast's reign as a tyrant, but you put the witnesses in the first half of the 7 years and the Beast's reign in the second half. This seems like a contradiction. I think the 1260 days of the prophecy match exactly with the 1260 days that the woman is in the wilderness. Fleeing to Petra -- do you have a Bible reference for this? I think Israel will face trouble again after 1260 days, which is why Jesus again tells the inhabitants of Jerusalem to flee when His feet touch down on the Mount of Olives in Zechariah 14.
    Both have "OFFICES ORDAINED" by God for 1260 days. Since the Beast starts at the Midway point of the 70th week and dies at the 7th Seal when Jesus returns, that tells us VIA MATH, that if the Two-witnesses don't die at the 7th Vial also then both of their 1260 day "OFFICES" can't match up perfectly, and since the Two-witnesses die at the 2nd Woe, THEY CAN'T MATCH UP PERFECTLY. LOOK BELOW: The Red is where each show up and DIE.

    ------------------------------------------------------------Midway point or the 1260------------------------------------------------------------Beast dies after 1260 day rule.

    -----------------------------------------------------Two-Witnesses must show up BEFORE the Beast------------------------------------Because the DIE BEFORE

    The Scripture is Malachi 4:5-6 that says Elijah shows up BEFORE the Day of the Lord. We also knows Israel have to repent BEFORE the Beast goes forth to Conquer, else they wouldn't know to Flee Judea when they see the AoD placed in the Temple by the False Prophet.

    The 1260 in Daniel 12 means that when Israel is Conquered/Scattered, there will be 1260 days until these WONDERS END (Second Coming).

    The 1290 us the Abomination of Desolation, I see this as the False Prophets doings, he places an Image (Rev. 13 says so) of the Beast in the Temple 30 days before the 1260, thus there is 1290 days from THAT POINT until all of these Wonders End (Second Coming of Jesus).

    The 1335 is a BLESSING, and I see that as the Two-witnesses showing up, thus from that point in time it will be 1335 days until these Wonders End. (The Second Coming).

    But the two 1260 periods CAN'T MATCH, one dies at the 2nd Woe and the other dies at the 7th Vial So there is no mathematical way they can be the same.

    God Bless.

    P.S. On my other post, where I can't EDIT: I meant to say God's Wrath starts when the FIRST SEAL is opened, and instead I think I stated it starts at the 6th Seal, and thus that was a TYPO.

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