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Thread: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

  1. #31

    Re: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    Not at all brother, the Seals, Trumpets and Vials are linear in nature, they are not portrating other time periods per se. The 144,000 are Metaphoric in nature. Here is what I see it as meaning, if you can follow the logic you can see it/THEY, fit in place perfectly here. Lets say the 144,000 are the Jews Fleeing Judea. Then read Rev. chapters 6, 7 and 8 at one reading and what do we get, IF we look at the 144,000 as the Fleeing Jews ? WE GET THIS.

    First Four Seals are the Anti-Christ and the Jews flee at the 1290 which is 30 days before the 1260. Jesus opens the 6th Sea to let the world know they are in Gods Wrath, which I think begins with the 1st Seal. Then in Chapter 7, God orders the Angels to HOLD OFF on the Trumpet Judgments (Hurt not the earth, trees or the seas until I seal the 144,000) until He has protected the Jews who are fleeing Judea and on their way to Petra/Wilderness. Rgen we are given the 12 tribes of Israel and tld 12,000 from each tribe are these 144,000. The number 12 is fullness, and thus 12 x 12,000 x 12 = ALL ISRAEL being SAVED, not every Jew bit Israel as a Nation being saved. Then after they are protected.......

    We see the Church/Bride in Heaven in verses 7:9-17, and then in chapter 8 the 7th Seal is opened which brings forth the 7 Trumpet Judgments, so God held the Judgments which we know by reading them HURTS the Trees, Seas and the Earth. Thus God ordered these Judgments to be be held up until He made sure they made it unto Petra, their safe zone.

    So the 144,000 is a Metaphor for the 1/3 of the Jews who repent and Flee Judea, just as Matt. 24 and Zechariah 1:9 say.
    Can you tell me which Bible reference talks about Israel fleeing to Petra? Zechariah 1:9 looks like a typo. Why is the wilderness in Rev. 12:6 equated with Petra?

    The Martyrs from the 5th Seal are a prime example of people allowing Men's Traditions to overwhelm their thought process. They are specifically told when given their robes that they must WAIT until their fellow brothers have been killed in like manner as they were, thus they must wait until the Beasts 42 months reign of terror is over. The people in Revelation 7:9-17 came out of the 2000 some odd year Church Age Tribulation, and Jesus told us we would have CONTINUAL TRIBULATION, thus the 2000 some odd year Church Age is 2000 years of tribulation, thus those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 came out of the Church Age period and 2000 is GREATER than 7 as in 2000>7. Those Martyrs will be raised and judged in Rev. 20:4, go read it, those that died whilst REFUSING the Mark of the Beast will serve with Jesus for 1000 years ON EARTH !! So that is when they are raised and Judged, it is plain as day. People who go by Men's Tradition MANDATE that "Greatest" can only mean the Greatest ever troubles, but John was speaking about the GREATEST EVER PERIOD of Tribulation. The 2000 year Church Age Period.

    Bu the time above however the Rapture will already have happened, that is where the Rev. 7:9-17 Saints come from, not the Tribulation Martyrs as you assume. As per the 12 and 12 I disagree, Daniel was specifically told he would be raised up at THE END in Dan. ch. 12 and stand in his lot with the rest of the Israelis/Jews. The Elders are Elders of the Church of Christ Jesus. We are Raptured to marry the Lamb, the Jews are already married to God. As per the Rapture, we are told the DEAD rise first then we who are alive are raptured and we all meet Jesus in the air.

    The Prayers are the payers of the Saints, the Elders are the Church, the Church are all Raptured at ONE TIME, people don't die and go straight to Heaven, thus when you see the Elders that mean ALL THE CHURCH is in Heaven, just as Rev. 7:9-17 shows. They are the REDEEMED meaning they are the Bride of Christ.
    I think Christians' souls go to heaven while their bodies rest on the earth. If their souls are not in heaven, where do you think their souls are? Isn't the altar in heaven, so the martyrs' souls are waiting in heaven?

    For some reason I quoted the WRONG Quote with this ANSWER..........This below in red was mean to be the Question/Quote and the Answer
    The preview function is useful for long posts.

    Look at Rev. 16:19, when God defeats the NATIONS He calls them Babylon so Babylon = the Whole World or Satan's Rule on this evil world. Mw look back at the 6th Vial and you have the Kings of the East (Persia/Iran and Iraq) and the KINGS OF THE WHOLE WORLD are gathered unto Armageddon.

    The First Seal begins the Wrath of God (Day of the Lord) on Mankind, we are not looking for Jesus to reign until after the 7th Vial. We are however looking for the Wrath of God. Thus the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments bring forth God's Wrath. The Revelation means the REVEALING, and as you cite 2 Thees. 2, as I was about to before I saw you did, that indeed fits. Thus the Woman (Rev. 12) Flees Judea in Rev. 6, the Beast Arises (Rev. 13) in Rev. 6, the Harlot (Rev. 17) is DESTROYED/JUDGED in Rev. 6 when the Beast does away with All False Religions while destroying ALL RELIGIONS in order to be Worshiped as the ONLY GOD !! And finally (Rev. 18) Babylon (Whole World) is Destroyed/Burned starting in Rev. 6 with the First Vial and Babylon finally falls when Jesus shows up at the 7th Vial in Rev. 16. So Rev. 18 is ALL the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments destroying Babylon or Satan's Dark Kingdom on this earth, thus Jesus takes over once and for all. Babylon is Judged in Rev. chapter 18. Thus Babylon and the Harlot are 2 Different Entities.
    I think Babylon in Rev. 16:19 refers to the city of Jerusalem, not the nations. At the 6th trumpet, religions were still alive and well. There could be time between the 6th trumpet and the 7th vial. Or else, Satan could allow people to have more than one religion. By way of comparison, the Romans were allowed to worship their own gods as long as they also offered a sacrifice to the emperor. The harlot has the name "Babylon" on her forehead (Rev. 17:5). Babylon sounds like the name of the harlot.

    Rev. 9:20 WEB The rest of mankind, who were not killed with these plagues, didn’t repent of the works of their hands, that they wouldn’t worship demons, and the idols of gold, and of silver, and of brass, and of stone, and of wood; which can neither see, nor hear, nor walk.


    And that means 1/4 of all the world is going to die. That is the way Prophesy works, else God could be talking about Antarctica where no one lives. The Beast is going to Wipe out all World Religions, thus Islam will be wiped off the face of the map, and that will call for killing the Muslim fanatics who will die for Allah this very day for no reason !! God never confuses us, it is 1/4 of all mankind that die, just like it is 1/3 of all mankind that dies in the 2nd Woe.

    YW
    I disagree with your understanding of 1/4. The 1/3 sounds pretty insane, and I'm not sure what to make of it.


    Both have "OFFICES ORDAINED" by God for 1260 days. Since the Beast starts at the Midway point of the 70th week and dies at the 7th Seal when Jesus returns, that tells us VIA MATH, that if the Two-witnesses don't die at the 7th Vial also then both of their 1260 day "OFFICES" can't match up perfectly, and since the Two-witnesses die at the 2nd Woe, THEY CAN'T MATCH UP PERFECTLY. LOOK BELOW: The Red is where each show up and DIE.

    ------------------------------------------------------------Midway point or the 1260------------------------------------------------------------Beast dies after 1260 day rule.

    -----------------------------------------------------Two-Witnesses must show up BEFORE the Beast------------------------------------Because the DIE BEFORE

    The Scripture is Malachi 4:5-6 that says Elijah shows up BEFORE the Day of the Lord. We also knows Israel have to repent BEFORE the Beast goes forth to Conquer, else they wouldn't know to Flee Judea when they see the AoD placed in the Temple by the False Prophet.

    The 1260 in Daniel 12 means that when Israel is Conquered/Scattered, there will be 1260 days until these WONDERS END (Second Coming).

    The 1290 us the Abomination of Desolation, I see this as the False Prophets doings, he places an Image (Rev. 13 says so) of the Beast in the Temple 30 days before the 1260, thus there is 1290 days from THAT POINT until all of these Wonders End (Second Coming of Jesus).

    The 1335 is a BLESSING, and I see that as the Two-witnesses showing up, thus from that point in time it will be 1335 days until these Wonders End. (The Second Coming).

    But the two 1260 periods CAN'T MATCH, one dies at the 2nd Woe and the other dies at the 7th Vial So there is no mathematical way they can be the same.
    I understand what you mean now. The two witnesses start a little before the reign of the beast, but their time overlaps. I agree with you that the AoD is likely the image in Rev. 13. I think it is how he sets himself up as God in God's temple 2 Thess 2. I don't think you can have the beast reign 30 days after he sets up an image. The beast is already ruling if he orders other people to worship him. So you have a period of 1260 days and 1290 days after the image. 42 months could refer to 42 months and 0-29 days.

    God Bless.

    P.S. On my other post, where I can't EDIT: I meant to say God's Wrath starts when the FIRST SEAL is opened, and instead I think I stated it starts at the 6th Seal, and thus that was a TYPO.

  2. #32
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    Re: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    Can you tell me which Bible reference talks about Israel fleeing to Petra? Zechariah 1:9 looks like a typo. Why is the wilderness in Rev. 12:6 equated with Petra?
    Zechariah 13:9 or 13:8-9 to be more exact on when they repent.

    Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

    This is where God calls Israel to repentance via Elijah (Malachi 4:5-6). Zechariah 12:10 and Zechariah 13:1 show this also, Zechariah 14:1-2 is the Beast Conquering Jerusalem, then in Zechariah 14:3-4 we see Jesus then Conquering the Beast and his minions.

    As per the pointed question about how we know that it is Petra where the Jewish people flee, here goes (I didn't forget).

    The Bible identifies Bozrah (Hebrew), or Petra (Greek), as one of the significant areas during the end times. Prophetic passages like Micah 2:12 and Isaiah 63:1-6 describe the area of Petra in Jordan as the place where Jews flee when the Antichrist begins persecution. It is where they remain safely protected by God during the Great Tribulation.

    The message spoken by the prophets are even echoed in Matthew 24:15-16 when Jesus warns, "when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

    The good news is that according to the book of Daniel, Jordan is the one place the Antichrist will not be able to overcome.

    "He will enter the glorious land of Israel, and many nations will fall, but Moab, Edom, and the best part of Ammon will escape," Daniel 11:41 says.

    Moab, Edom and Ammon are all in Jordan. In fact, Ammon which is now known as Amman, is the capital and most populous city of Jordan. Petra is a naturally fortified city in Jordan with a huge newfound stage/platform for speaking to a vast peoples.

    I think Christians' souls go to heaven while their bodies rest on the earth. If their souls are not in heaven, where do you think their souls are? Isn't the altar in heaven, so the martyrs' souls are waiting in heaven?
    1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    This is Paul telling us about the Mystery of the Rapture and Resurrection. He says we shall not all sleep, this tells us the dead sleep until the Resurrection, then he says they shall be RAISED [from the grave] incorruptible (which means without sin flesh which has rotted away of course). Flesh and blood (corruption) can't inherit the Kingdom of God (incorruption or NO CORRUPTION/sin flesh can enter Heaven).

    This is why those who are alive and remain at the Rapture/Resurrection must be changed in a FLASH (Twinkling of a eye) from a SIN FLESH to a Spirit Man without the corruptible sin, like the spirit men who are raised from the grave, without corruption (sin flesh). Thus we likewise must shed our sin flesh, meaning we DIE and change into spirit men in a flash or in a moment. Another passage in 1 Thess. 4 tells us we are raised at the same time as the Dead in Christ and meet Jesus IN THE AIR.

    1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    So it is pretty clear brother, no one goes to Heaven until the Rapture save maybe Elijah and Moses or Enoch, whoever the Two-witnesses are. But if the Dead in Christ are RAISED and meet those of us who are alive IN THE AIR as we all meet Jesus IN THE AIR, then we all sleep until the Rapture/Resurrection. Wherever we sleep really matters not, we are not conscious and thus we are resting, we are not in Heaven walking and talking like many people assume erroneously.

    The preview function is useful for long posts.
    I am used to being able to edit: But for some reason we can't now, so I will have to proof read my posts until they fix it.

    I think Babylon in Rev. 16:19 refers to the city of Jerusalem, not the nations.
    Rev. 16:19 And the great city (Jerusalem/Earthquake/Jesus Returns) was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: Babylon FALLS) and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

    I have a blog on Babylon and the Harlot, this isn't off the cuff stuff brother.

    So Jesus lands on the Mt. of Olives, the great Earthquake splits the Mt. of Olives into, then what happens ? Jesus speaks VICTORY and the Nations FALL, the Nations that gathered against God at Armageddon are DEFEATED !! And who does God see them as ? Babylon the Great !! And he gives them the winepress of His GREAT WRATH !! Of course God sees them as Babylon, so now all we need to do is go back to Vial #6 to see who THEY ARE !! Lets see who God sees as Babylon the great.

    Rev. 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

    We know the Anti-Christ/Beast is of Europe/10 Kings, thus that covers Rome/Greece. Then we get the Kings of the East which covers Persia/Old Babylon (Iraq/Iran), and FINALLY WE GET THIS.........The Kings of ALL THE WORLD are Gathered unto Armageddon to fight God !!

    So the NATIONS THAT FALL are who brother ? The Anti-Christ and Europe/The Kings of the East AND the Kings of ALL THE WORLD meaning that God sees Babylon as THE WHOLE WORLD !! Or Satan's Dark Kingdom on Earth, and Jesus crushes that Kingdom, he is the Rock that smashes into the Statue !! (Dan. 2)

    At the 6th trumpet, religions were still alive and well.
    The Harlot is ALL FALSE RELIGIONS, she is Destroyed by the Kings in league with the Beast in Rev. 17:16, which happens in Rev. chapter 6 in reality. I have no clue why people think the Beast is going to allow "MANY RELIGIONS" to exist when he is going to demand to be worshiped as the ONLY GOD !! The False Prophet is a BEAST over Religion, there will be ONE RELIGION, men will have to worship the Anti-Christ/Beast or DIE !! That is it. Do you think the Muslims are going to worship this man ? The answer is NO WAY, they blow up people now for far less, if you mock Allah in a carton etc. etc. They are not going to worship this man as God, the Anti-Christ of course knows this, he has dark powers or understands sentences/dark riddles, his first move will be to subjugate Islam and the Muslims by force. After the Church is Raptured Islam will be the biggest Religion remaining, or else God destroys them for the most part in the Psalm 83 War along with Russia, giving the Anti-Christ and the E.U. an opening to come to Agreements with Israel and the MANY [Nations in the Region] then he reneges on those Agreements and Conquers the Mediterranean Sea Region. In whatever fashion it comes down, the Beast is going to destroy all Religions, that includes all False Religions, thus the Harlot is destroyed as Rev. 17:16 states. The False Prophet replaces the Harlot. He BEASTS over Religion !!

    There could be time between the 6th trumpet and the 7th vial. Or else, Satan could allow people to have more than one religion. By way of comparison, the Romans were allowed to worship their own gods as long as they also offered a sacrifice to the emperor. The harlot has the name "Babylon" on her forehead (Rev. 17:5). Babylon sounds like the name of the harlot.

    Rev. 9:20 WEB The rest of mankind, who were not killed with these plagues, didn’t repent of the works of their hands, that they wouldn’t worship demons, and the idols of gold, and of silver, and of brass, and of stone, and of wood; which can neither see, nor hear, nor walk.
    Of course there is time between the 6th Trumpet and 7th Vial. The Beast is a MAN influenced by Satan no doubt, but he is not Satan. The bible tells us that ALL MEN must worship the Image of the Beast or die !! There is going to be no other religions, anyone serving any other God will be killed, including the Christian Martyrs.

    Babylon is only one of FOUR DESCRIPTORS of the Harlot. Harlots of old wore their names on their Head on a sort of headband, thus their customers would recognize them. This represents who the Harlot is or is associated with. This describes who the Harlot is via these 4 descriptions.

    1. Mystery, this is speaking of the Mystery Religion that arose from Nimrod and Semiramis, whereas they copied the coming virgin birth and resurrection.

    2. Babylon the Great tells us where this Mystery Religion was BIRTHED, and that she was co-mingled with these "FALSE GOVERNMENTAL ENTITIES" all through the ages.

    3. Mother of Harlots = She is where all False Religion was Birthed, via Semiramis.

    4. Abominations of the Earth = She (All False Religion) is an Abomination before God, and we know God is a jealous God and detests all worship of any God but Him.

    Rev. 9:20 is the 2nd Woe and it is IMHO, an Angelic Army that brings Plagues against the Wicked on earth.

    I disagree with your understanding of 1/4. The 1/3 sounds pretty insane, and I'm not sure what to make of it.
    God JUDGES All False Religion/The Harlot, many people will die, the Bible says 1/4 of all mankind will die. The bibles then says 1/3 of all mankind dies via the 2nd Woe. It is what it is. All the Wicked will die by the 7th Vial one way or the other.

    I understand what you mean now. The two witnesses start a little before the reign of the beast, but their time overlaps. I agree with you that the AoD is likely the image in Rev. 13. I think it is how he sets himself up as God in God's temple 2 Thess 2. I don't think you can have the beast reign 30 days after he sets up an image. The beast is already ruling if he orders other people to worship him. So you have a period of 1260 days and 1290 days after the image. 42 months could refer to 42 months and 0-29 days.
    Read Rev. 13, the False Prophet places the Image of the Beast (E.U. President) in the Temple. He sees what is coming, he tries to pacify the Beast just before he starts his Conquering, like some tried to pacify Hitler before he started Conquering !! This man (False Prophet) is a High Priest of Judaism, he will be angry that 1/3 of all the Jews have accepted Jesus as their Messiah/Savior. I think they are worshiping Jesus in the Temple of God thus the "SACRIFICE or the DAILY" that is taken away is Jesus being worshiped, the False Prophet or "High Priest" is so angry at this that he mocks them and places an Image of the E.U. President (Beast) in the Temple. Now, do we have a forerunner of the False Prophet like we have a forerunner of the Anti-Christ in Antiochus ? YES INDEED.

    His name was Jason and he Bribed Antiochus to be named the High Priest, then he tried to Hellenize the Jews and they fought back (the Maccabean Revolt). Jason's real name was GET THIS, Yeshua, and thus his Greek/Hellenized name was Jason. He bribed Antiochus who then had his REAL BROTHER Onias III a Pious High Priest killed so he could take over the position !! So the Daniel 11 Greek Kingdom rundowns on all of the Syrian Wars have a pointed purpose to them, they point us towards the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet, even though Daniel was never told about the False Prophet (BUT WHY? Because I think if Daniel was told about the False Prophet, Jews in FEAR would have been killing every other High Priest down through the ages, so Daniel was not specifically told about the coming False Prophet, but John was via Jesus in Revelation, because Jesus knew Israel were about to be dispersed unto all the nations anyway via the Jewish diaspora, of course.)

    By looking at Revelation chapter 12 we know the Time, times and half time is exactly 1260 days, because BOTH are mentioned with the Woman (Israel) Fleeing in Revelation chapter 12. Months were also 30 days in their calendar.

    The 1260, 1290 and 1335 are all a SET NUMBER of days from an EVENT until the Second Coming. The 1290 is the AoD, The False Prophet places it in the Temple of God, this is a sign to the Jews to Flee Judea, they have a 30 day window to GET OUT !! Once the Beast Conquers Jerusalem and is RELEASED to go forth Conquering, why would he allow the Jews to leave Jerusalem ? Some might say, "well God can do anything, He can protect them", well yea He does protect them in Petra, but God can also give the Jews a 30 days heads up as per a SIGN of when to Flee Judea, doesn't that make much more sense ? This False Prophet will be a traitor like Jason was, and thus he seeks to curry favor with this E.U. President, the Little Horn/Beast.

    As per 2 Thess. 2 remember, John was given these End Time Events, Paul was more or less a Church builder/Disciple of the Gentiles, I think he knew vaguely about what was going to happen, but Daniel and John were called to write about these End Time Events much more so. Paul was giving a HEADS UP to the Thessalonians and in general he was correct, but John is more specific, and Jhn only relayed what Jesus revealed unto him.

    P.S. I don't see a PREVIEW button on my computer. Maybe it is under............"GO ADVANCE".

  3. #33
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    Re: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

    Revman, I have been to Petra and it is a really small place. The amphitheater would be full with 1000 people.
    Petra is not the place referred to as the place of safety, Revelation 12:14 Not where the vast multitude pf Revelation 7:9 gather either; that is in Jerusalem, proved by how Jesus is revealed to His people in Revelation 14:1.

    Also do not equate Petra with Bozrah, they are separate locations many miles apart. Petra means 'rock or as rocky place. Bozrah means a 'sheepfold, a place to gather sheep'. Neither of these ancient places have any significance in the end times, only their names are used as 'types', to be fulfilled when the Lord does gather His people, all the faithful Christians into all of the holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26

  4. #34
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    Re: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Revman, I have been to Petra and it is a really small place. The amphitheater would be full with 1000 people.
    Petra is not the place referred to as the place of safety, Revelation 12:14 Not where the vast multitude pf Revelation 7:9 gather either; that is in Jerusalem, proved by how Jesus is revealed to His people in Revelation 14:1.

    Also do not equate Petra with Bozrah, they are separate locations many miles apart. Petra means 'rock or as rocky place. Bozrah means a 'sheepfold, a place to gather sheep'. Neither of these ancient places have any significance in the end times, only their names are used as 'types', to be fulfilled when the Lord does gather His people, all the faithful Christians into all of the holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26
    The Plain of Petra is not small, its over a 100 miles square. Petra means Rock and thus Israel are to escape to the Mountains. We all know via Dan. 11:40-43 that is not just Petra, but that region in general, that is why we are told this.

    Dan. 11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.

    So we know its the General area of Southern Jordan, not just Petra. As per Bozrah, the whole area was known as Bozrah and ot also had a capital city named Bozrah, like Los Angeles County and Los Angeles City.

    "I swear by myself", declares the Lord, "that Bozrah will become a ruin and a curse, an object of horror and reproach; and all its towns will be in ruin forever". (Jeremiah 49:13)

    According to Isaiah 63:1-6, the Lord will come from Edom (modern-day Jordan) and Bozrah in blood-stained clothing on "the day of vengeance" and "the year of My redeemed" (Revelation 19:13: He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood).

    Rev. 14:1 is Jesus coming back from PICKING UP is Saints in Bozrah, Edom, Ammon, Petra, or in modern day Jordan. The 144,000 are the Jews who fled Judea, they are Human beings, that is why they needed protection in Rev. 7:1-3, in Rev. 14 the Wheat (Israel) are brought with Jesus who returned from Heaven with the Church/Bride in tow. Armageddon will be our destiny, and then the WICKED TARES will be Destroyed, or bound up in bundles and readied to burn in 1000 years at the Second Resurrection. Rev. 14 is the Harvest Chapter. We are shown the three Harvests. The First one is Rapture of the Church in verse 14, Jesus shows up on a cloud and thrists in the sickle, and we are shown that Harvest in between the two end time Harvests. Jesus gathers the Wheat into his barn, then we all go to Armageddon, and he destroys the Wicked Tares, thus the Wheat and the Tares grow together until the end, but the Church goes to Heaven to marry the Lamb.

    The whole point is the meaning of the two places must be combined brother. Bozrah in Hebrew means "SHEEP FOLD" and Petra in Greek means Rock and of course Peter was the Rock of the Church, that is where he got his name from. So now placing them both together what do we have brother ? The SHEEP will be protected in the Mountains/Rocks at the End Times. That is the Message God is giving us.

    Isaiah 63:1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. 2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat? 3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. 4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

    5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. 6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth. 7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the Lord, and the praises of the Lord, according to all that the Lord hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses. 8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.

    Therefore the whole SOUTHERN REGION of Jordan is the place where the FLOCK will run and be PROTECTED in the MOUNTAINS just like Jesus told them to do.

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    Re: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

    Therefore the whole SOUTHERN REGION of Jordan is the place where the FLOCK will run and be PROTECTED in the MOUNTAINS just like Jesus told them to do. Quote Revman

    When I see it, I will believe your ideas, but until then; I refuse to believe your ideas of a 'rapture' and being with Jesus at Armageddon. Its imopssibel for the 144,000 to be all Jews, as they represent only 2 tribes of Israel.

    What I do see from all the prophesies, is we Christians occupying all of the holy Land, from the Nile to the Euphrates. The place of safety, as mentioned in Revelation 12:14, must be a place much further away than Southern Jordan, as that is within artillery shot of Israel.

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    Re: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Therefore the whole SOUTHERN REGION of Jordan is the place where the FLOCK will run and be PROTECTED in the MOUNTAINS just like Jesus told them to do. Quote Revman

    When I see it, I will believe your ideas, but until then; I refuse to believe your ideas of a 'rapture' and being with Jesus at Armageddon. Its imopssibel for the 144,000 to be all Jews, as they represent only 2 tribes of Israel.

    What I do see from all the prophesies, is we Christians occupying all of the holy Land, from the Nile to the Euphrates. The place of safety, as mentioned in Revelation 12:14, must be a place much further away than Southern Jordan, as that is within artillery shot of Israel.
    It is scriptures, what you believe are don't believe is on you. Not understanding that there was never any lost tribes of Israel is also in you. How many men did it take to pot forth the seed of Abraham ? One man right ? Abraham. Thus if ONE MAN from each tribe was in Jerusalem/Judah when the 10 tribes were taken away, then God therefore could put forth SEED from every tribe, and there were more than ONE MAN from each tribe in Judah/Jerusalem when the 10 tribes were taken away. Most all of the tribe of the Levites had moved to Judah because the Northern Kingdom was WICKED (which is why God judged them). Likewise those of Judah that loved Wickedness of course moved to the Northern Kingdom, and many people f those Northern Kingdom Tribes who were Godly people, who feared God, moved to the Southern Kingdom of Judea.

    So when those Northern Tribes were taken away, each one had SEED in Judah, thus no tribes were ever lost, they just all came to be called Jews !! BOOM, Glory to God. There are no lost tribes, only people that God chose to pinosh, while saving a Remnant of each tribe.

    Christians are Raptured to Heaven. We occupy nothing.

  7. #37

    Re: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    Zechariah 13:9 or 13:8-9 to be more exact on when they repent.

    Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

    This is where God calls Israel to repentance via Elijah (Malachi 4:5-6). Zechariah 12:10 and Zechariah 13:1 show this also, Zechariah 14:1-2 is the Beast Conquering Jerusalem, then in Zechariah 14:3-4 we see Jesus then Conquering the Beast and his minions.

    As per the pointed question about how we know that it is Petra where the Jewish people flee, here goes (I didn't forget).

    The Bible identifies Bozrah (Hebrew), or Petra (Greek), as one of the significant areas during the end times. Prophetic passages like Micah 2:12 and Isaiah 63:1-6 describe the area of Petra in Jordan as the place where Jews flee when the Antichrist begins persecution. It is where they remain safely protected by God during the Great Tribulation.

    The message spoken by the prophets are even echoed in Matthew 24:15-16 when Jesus warns, "when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

    The good news is that according to the book of Daniel, Jordan is the one place the Antichrist will not be able to overcome.

    "He will enter the glorious land of Israel, and many nations will fall, but Moab, Edom, and the best part of Ammon will escape," Daniel 11:41 says.

    Moab, Edom and Ammon are all in Jordan. In fact, Ammon which is now known as Amman, is the capital and most populous city of Jordan. Petra is a naturally fortified city in Jordan with a huge newfound stage/platform for speaking to a vast peoples.
    Thanks. It is interesting that people have fled to the Transjordan area in the past. Petra does seem like a good place to flee. But the Bible mentions a sacrifice in the land of Edom -- maybe people attacking them after 1260 days?

    1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    This is Paul telling us about the Mystery of the Rapture and Resurrection. He says we shall not all sleep, this tells us the dead sleep until the Resurrection, then he says they shall be RAISED [from the grave] incorruptible (which means without sin flesh which has rotted away of course). Flesh and blood (corruption) can't inherit the Kingdom of God (incorruption or NO CORRUPTION/sin flesh can enter Heaven).

    This is why those who are alive and remain at the Rapture/Resurrection must be changed in a FLASH (Twinkling of a eye) from a SIN FLESH to a Spirit Man without the corruptible sin, like the spirit men who are raised from the grave, without corruption (sin flesh). Thus we likewise must shed our sin flesh, meaning we DIE and change into spirit men in a flash or in a moment. Another passage in 1 Thess. 4 tells us we are raised at the same time as the Dead in Christ and meet Jesus IN THE AIR.

    1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    So it is pretty clear brother, no one goes to Heaven until the Rapture save maybe Elijah and Moses or Enoch, whoever the Two-witnesses are. But if the Dead in Christ are RAISED and meet those of us who are alive IN THE AIR as we all meet Jesus IN THE AIR, then we all sleep until the Rapture/Resurrection. Wherever we sleep really matters not, we are not conscious and thus we are resting, we are not in Heaven walking and talking like many people assume erroneously.
    OK. Let's not discuss soul sleep in this forum


    I am used to being able to edit: But for some reason we can't now, so I will have to proof read my posts until they fix it.



    Rev. 16:19 And the great city (Jerusalem/Earthquake/Jesus Returns) was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: Babylon FALLS) and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

    I have a blog on Babylon and the Harlot, this isn't off the cuff stuff brother.

    So Jesus lands on the Mt. of Olives, the great Earthquake splits the Mt. of Olives into, then what happens ? Jesus speaks VICTORY and the Nations FALL, the Nations that gathered against God at Armageddon are DEFEATED !! And who does God see them as ? Babylon the Great !! And he gives them the winepress of His GREAT WRATH !! Of course God sees them as Babylon, so now all we need to do is go back to Vial #6 to see who THEY ARE !! Lets see who God sees as Babylon the great.

    Rev. 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

    We know the Anti-Christ/Beast is of Europe/10 Kings, thus that covers Rome/Greece. Then we get the Kings of the East which covers Persia/Old Babylon (Iraq/Iran), and FINALLY WE GET THIS.........The Kings of ALL THE WORLD are Gathered unto Armageddon to fight God !!

    So the NATIONS THAT FALL are who brother ? The Anti-Christ and Europe/The Kings of the East AND the Kings of ALL THE WORLD meaning that God sees Babylon as THE WHOLE WORLD !! Or Satan's Dark Kingdom on Earth, and Jesus crushes that Kingdom, he is the Rock that smashes into the Statue !! (Dan. 2)
    Interesting that it is the kings who assemble in Armaggeddon. The armies can be fighting in other places e.g. Jerusalem and Edom.



    The Harlot is ALL FALSE RELIGIONS, she is Destroyed by the Kings in league with the Beast in Rev. 17:16, which happens in Rev. chapter 6 in reality. I have no clue why people think the Beast is going to allow "MANY RELIGIONS" to exist when he is going to demand to be worshiped as the ONLY GOD !! The False Prophet is a BEAST over Religion, there will be ONE RELIGION, men will have to worship the Anti-Christ/Beast or DIE !! That is it. Do you think the Muslims are going to worship this man ? The answer is NO WAY, they blow up people now for far less, if you mock Allah in a carton etc. etc. They are not going to worship this man as God, the Anti-Christ of course knows this, he has dark powers or understands sentences/dark riddles, his first move will be to subjugate Islam and the Muslims by force. After the Church is Raptured Islam will be the biggest Religion remaining, or else God destroys them for the most part in the Psalm 83 War along with Russia, giving the Anti-Christ and the E.U. an opening to come to Agreements with Israel and the MANY [Nations in the Region] then he reneges on those Agreements and Conquers the Mediterranean Sea Region. In whatever fashion it comes down, the Beast is going to destroy all Religions, that includes all False Religions, thus the Harlot is destroyed as Rev. 17:16 states. The False Prophet replaces the Harlot. He BEASTS over Religion !!
    The Muslims are awaiting some special person called Mahdi. Maybe the false prophet can convince them that he speaks for God, since he can call down fire from heaven.

    Of course there is time between the 6th Trumpet and 7th Vial. The Beast is a MAN influenced by Satan no doubt, but he is not Satan. The bible tells us that ALL MEN must worship the Image of the Beast or die !! There is going to be no other religions, anyone serving any other God will be killed, including the Christian Martyrs.

    Babylon is only one of FOUR DESCRIPTORS of the Harlot. Harlots of old wore their names on their Head on a sort of headband, thus their customers would recognize them. This represents who the Harlot is or is associated with. This describes who the Harlot is via these 4 descriptions.

    1. Mystery, this is speaking of the Mystery Religion that arose from Nimrod and Semiramis, whereas they copied the coming virgin birth and resurrection.

    2. Babylon the Great tells us where this Mystery Religion was BIRTHED, and that she was co-mingled with these "FALSE GOVERNMENTAL ENTITIES" all through the ages.

    3. Mother of Harlots = She is where all False Religion was Birthed, via Semiramis.

    4. Abominations of the Earth = She (All False Religion) is an Abomination before God, and we know God is a jealous God and detests all worship of any God but Him.

    Rev. 9:20 is the 2nd Woe and it is IMHO, an Angelic Army that brings Plagues against the Wicked on earth.
    Just because people worship the beast doesn't mean they are not superstitious and worship everything else too. Why do you think the harlot rides on the beast? The harlot is called a great city that rules over the kings of the earth (Rev. 17:18). How does a city become all false religions?

    God JUDGES All False Religion/The Harlot, many people will die, the Bible says 1/4 of all mankind will die. The bibles then says 1/3 of all mankind dies via the 2nd Woe. It is what it is. All the Wicked will die by the 7th Vial one way or the other.



    Read Rev. 13, the False Prophet places the Image of the Beast (E.U. President) in the Temple. He sees what is coming, he tries to pacify the Beast just before he starts his Conquering, like some tried to pacify Hitler before he started Conquering !! This man (False Prophet) is a High Priest of Judaism, he will be angry that 1/3 of all the Jews have accepted Jesus as their Messiah/Savior. I think they are worshiping Jesus in the Temple of God thus the "SACRIFICE or the DAILY" that is taken away is Jesus being worshiped, the False Prophet or "High Priest" is so angry at this that he mocks them and places an Image of the E.U. President (Beast) in the Temple. Now, do we have a forerunner of the False Prophet like we have a forerunner of the Anti-Christ in Antiochus ? YES INDEED.

    His name was Jason and he Bribed Antiochus to be named the High Priest, then he tried to Hellenize the Jews and they fought back (the Maccabean Revolt). Jason's real name was GET THIS, Yeshua, and thus his Greek/Hellenized name was Jason. He bribed Antiochus who then had his REAL BROTHER Onias III a Pious High Priest killed so he could take over the position !! So the Daniel 11 Greek Kingdom rundowns on all of the Syrian Wars have a pointed purpose to them, they point us towards the Anti-Christ and the False Prophet, even though Daniel was never told about the False Prophet (BUT WHY? Because I think if Daniel was told about the False Prophet, Jews in FEAR would have been killing every other High Priest down through the ages, so Daniel was not specifically told about the coming False Prophet, but John was via Jesus in Revelation, because Jesus knew Israel were about to be dispersed unto all the nations anyway via the Jewish diaspora, of course.)

    By looking at Revelation chapter 12 we know the Time, times and half time is exactly 1260 days, because BOTH are mentioned with the Woman (Israel) Fleeing in Revelation chapter 12. Months were also 30 days in their calendar.

    The 1260, 1290 and 1335 are all a SET NUMBER of days from an EVENT until the Second Coming. The 1290 is the AoD, The False Prophet places it in the Temple of God, this is a sign to the Jews to Flee Judea, they have a 30 day window to GET OUT !! Once the Beast Conquers Jerusalem and is RELEASED to go forth Conquering, why would he allow the Jews to leave Jerusalem ? Some might say, "well God can do anything, He can protect them", well yea He does protect them in Petra, but God can also give the Jews a 30 days heads up as per a SIGN of when to Flee Judea, doesn't that make much more sense ? This False Prophet will be a traitor like Jason was, and thus he seeks to curry favor with this E.U. President, the Little Horn/Beast.

    As per 2 Thess. 2 remember, John was given these End Time Events, Paul was more or less a Church builder/Disciple of the Gentiles, I think he knew vaguely about what was going to happen, but Daniel and John were called to write about these End Time Events much more so. Paul was giving a HEADS UP to the Thessalonians and in general he was correct, but John is more specific, and Jhn only relayed what Jesus revealed unto him.
    Jason did not set up the image of Zeus in advance of Antiochus' reign as you propose the false prophet will do. Jason was killed, and then Antiochus set up the image.

    P.S. I don't see a PREVIEW button on my computer. Maybe it is under............"GO ADVANCE".
    Yup, Go Advanced.

  8. #38
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    Re: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    Thanks. It is interesting that people have fled to the Transjordan area in the past. Petra does seem like a good place to flee. But the Bible mentions a sacrifice in the land of Edom -- maybe people attacking them after 1260 days?
    Maybe it's Jesus coming from that area, I can't say without knowing the scripture, Jesus is our "Sacrifice".

    OK. Let's not discuss soul sleep in this forum
    I don't have "TAGS" or "NAMES" for things I discuss in the bible I just call them scriptures and quote thm. The scriptures say what they say. So no man will be in Heaven before the First Resurrection, else there would be a "FIRST RESURRECTION" would there ? There wouldn't be any need for one !! The Dead and those alive are taken to Heaven at the same time, people can place their own tags on them if they so desire. That doesn't change what the scriptures say.

    [QUOTE]Interesting that it is the kings who assemble in Armaggeddon. The armies can be fighting in other places e.g. Jerusalem and Edom.[QUOTE]
    Well it's NOT JUST the Kings, of course the Kings all go into battle with their Armies. It is the whole world full of wicked people. Most have taken the Mark of the Basst and understand they are doomed, so why would they not try to defeat God, even though they know it is useless, they will fight in desperation. I mean, if we were placed in a cage with 4 starving lions we would give it our best shot, but I don't think we would have any doubt as per to the outcome in the end, we would eventually be...........cat food.

    The Muslims are awaiting some special person called Mahdi. Maybe the false prophet can convince them that he speaks for God, since he can call down fire from heaven.
    I don't care or look at what the Muslims are doing or thinking to be honest. Satan KNEW the Bible when he got one of his DERANGED MEN to write the Koran, so it's all lies. I only look at the bible, and the bible says ALL FALSE RELIGION (The Harlot) is going to be destroyed. The False Prophet arises with the E. U. Beast, the Islamic hordes have nothing to do with End Times Prophecy as per the final 7 years, most are wiped out in when Russia and the Islamic horde try to invade Israel in Ezekiel 37 and 38, God destroys them with fire. But I am sure the Anti-Christ will have to do away with the rest of them.

    Just because people worship the beast doesn't mean they are not superstitious and worship everything else too. Why do you think the harlot rides on the beast? The harlot is called a great city that rules over the kings of the earth (Rev. 17:18). How does a city become all false religions?
    The Harlot has always RIDDEN THE BEAST because False Religion was always co-mingled with these Government Beasts as in the 100's of false gods in Babylon, Greece, Rome etc. etc. etc. The diference in this End Time Beast is he desires to be worshiped as the ONLY GOD himself, thus there is no room for the Harlot (Other False Religions).

    The Angel only reminded John what HE SAW in verse 18.........the vision was only 4 verses, Rev. 17:3-6, and what city did John see ? Babylon tattooed on he forehead, describiig her as a PROSTITUTE RELIGION !! And thus describing her overall birthplace, where her zenith matriculated at.

    Just because people worship the beast doesn't mean they are not superstitious and worship everything else too. Why do you think the harlot rides on the beast? The harlot is called a great city that rules over the kings of the earth (Rev. 17:18). How does a city become all false religions?
    You miss the crux of the issue. We don't know or can't know exactly what Jason did or didn't do, but he tried to HELLENIZE the Jews, or tell them to become like unto the Greeks or THE WORLD and forsake their God. The End Time False Prophet will do the exact same thing, he will tell the Jews they need to Worship the Beast as God. He will tell them they need to forsake their God.

    The False Prophet will be killed as will the Beast. Trying to Hellenize the Jews as a High Priest is an ABOMINATION !!

  9. #39

    Re: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    Maybe it's Jesus coming from that area, I can't say without knowing the scripture, Jesus is our "Sacrifice".
    Isaiah 34:6 ESV The Lord has a sword; it is sated with blood; it is gorged with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah, a great slaughter in the land of Edom.

    I don't have "TAGS" or "NAMES" for things I discuss in the bible I just call them scriptures and quote thm. The scriptures say what they say. So no man will be in Heaven before the First Resurrection, else there would be a "FIRST RESURRECTION" would there ? There wouldn't be any need for one !! The Dead and those alive are taken to Heaven at the same time, people can place their own tags on them if they so desire. That doesn't change what the scriptures say.
    The dead can be in paradise. Heaven could be that paradise.
    Luke 23:43 ESV And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

    The living can be in heaven as visitors e.g. Paul and John.

    Jesus brought captives in his train to heaven. These could be people in prison from Noah's day that Jesus preached to. (1 Peter 3:18-20, 4:6)
    Ephesians 4:8 ESV Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”

    Well it's NOT JUST the Kings, of course the Kings all go into battle with their Armies. It is the whole world full of wicked people. Most have taken the Mark of the Basst and understand they are doomed, so why would they not try to defeat God, even though they know it is useless, they will fight in desperation. I mean, if we were placed in a cage with 4 starving lions we would give it our best shot, but I don't think we would have any doubt as per to the outcome in the end, we would eventually be...........cat food.
    I really suspect that the kings were not preparing to fight against Jesus, but against Jerusalem (Isaiah 29:1, 5-7), and then Jesus showed up to rescue them. Why would they fight against Jerusalem if Jerusalem was within the beast's realm? I'm guessing there was a revolt, and what better time than when it gets really dark (5th vial, without sun or moon).

    I don't care or look at what the Muslims are doing or thinking to be honest. Satan KNEW the Bible when he got one of his DERANGED MEN to write the Koran, so it's all lies. I only look at the bible, and the bible says ALL FALSE RELIGION (The Harlot) is going to be destroyed. The False Prophet arises with the E. U. Beast, the Islamic hordes have nothing to do with End Times Prophecy as per the final 7 years, most are wiped out in when Russia and the Islamic horde try to invade Israel in Ezekiel 37 and 38, God destroys them with fire. But I am sure the Anti-Christ will have to do away with the rest of them.
    I think Gog and Magog's armies, which include some countries with Muslim majorities today, are the Anti-Christ's armies. Because Gog is someone mentioned by other prophets (Ezekiel 38:17), he is not some obscure actor.

    The Harlot has always RIDDEN THE BEAST because False Religion was always co-mingled with these Government Beasts as in the 100's of false gods in Babylon, Greece, Rome etc. etc. etc. The diference in this End Time Beast is he desires to be worshiped as the ONLY GOD himself, thus there is no room for the Harlot (Other False Religions).

    The Angel only reminded John what HE SAW in verse 18.........the vision was only 4 verses, Rev. 17:3-6, and what city did John see ? Babylon tattooed on he forehead, describiig her as a PROSTITUTE RELIGION !! And thus describing her overall birthplace, where her zenith matriculated at.
    Revelation 18:3 For all nations have drunk
    the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality,
    and the kings of the earth have committed immorality with her,
    and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxurious living.”


    This verse speaks of Babylon, and the description perfectly matches the harlot. Babylon is not the kings of the earth. It is a city that is connected to merchants of the sea.

    You miss the crux of the issue. We don't know or can't know exactly what Jason did or didn't do, but he tried to HELLENIZE the Jews, or tell them to become like unto the Greeks or THE WORLD and forsake their God. The End Time False Prophet will do the exact same thing, he will tell the Jews they need to Worship the Beast as God. He will tell them they need to forsake their God.

    The False Prophet will be killed as will the Beast. Trying to Hellenize the Jews as a High Priest is an ABOMINATION !!
    Thanks for introducing me to that part of history.

  10. #40
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    Re: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    Isaiah 34:6 ESV The Lord has a sword; it is sated with blood; it is gorged with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah, a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
    I would have to study the text, am not that familiar with it. There were Two Bazrah's, one was in Edom.

    The dead can be in paradise. Heaven could be that paradise.
    Luke 23:43 ESV And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

    The living can be in heaven as visitors e.g. Paul and John.

    Jesus brought captives in his train to heaven. These could be people in prison from Noah's day that Jesus preached to. (1 Peter 3:18-20, 4:6)
    Ephesians 4:8 ESV Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”
    Jesus didn't go to heaven THAT DAY, he went down into earth, "Paradise" or a holding place for the Righteous Jews. Remember the story Jesus told about the great gulf, and told the man he couldn't warn anyone. Jesus only went to Heaven three days later to offer the Sacrifice.

    Paradise is a Persian loanword for "an area enclosed by a wall" or "garden." Its three uses in the Hebrew Bible ( Neh 2:8 ; Eccl 2:5 ; Sol 4:13 ) retain this meaning. The Septuagint uses the Greek paradeisos [paravdeiso"] for the garden of Eden in Genesis (called the "garden of God" in Isa 51:3 ; and Ezek 28:13 ).

    The intertestamental literature completes the transition of the word to a religious term. Human history will culminate in a divine paradise. Since Israel had no immediate access to the garden at history's origin or conclusion, paradise, sometimes called Abraham's Bosom, was associated with the realm of the righteous dead awaiting the resurrection of the body.

    Paul was speaking of the real Heaven, but he nor John actually went there, they just saw a vision. That is why Paul states in body or not I don't know !! Sin Flesh can not enter Heaven. Mary couldn't even touch Jesus before he offered himself a living sacrifice unto God the Father.

    I really suspect that the kings were not preparing to fight against Jesus, but against Jerusalem (Isaiah 29:1, 5-7), and then Jesus showed up to rescue them. Why would they fight against Jerusalem if Jerusalem was within the beast's realm? I'm guessing there was a revolt, and what better time than when it gets really dark (5th vial, without sun or moon).
    I think they were going to try and reach Petra, Edom etc. etc. Southern Jordan and kill the rest of the Jews, but they also understood they were in the Wrath of God, they understood that from Seal #6 on, even though the Wrath actually starts at Seal #1, because of the Supernatural elements of the 6th Seal. They will understand exact what is coming, trust me, after anyone sees three years of Wrath come to pass, many will have read the bible, others saw the Two-witnesses prophesying what was about to hit them just before it hit, they die at the 2nd Woe, but not before prophesying the 3rd Woe is upon mankind.

    Jesus, wit the Church in tow, lands in Petra (in the EAST) and I think the "144,000" will join us which is more like 2-3 million Jews, and then Jesus just lands on the Mt. of Olives and splits it into, and speaks victory over the Beas and his Kingdoms at Armageddon. Jesus doesn't have to go there to defeat them, Jesus is omnipresent, he just speaks the victory, WITHOUT HAND !! So we pick up the Jews in Petra, but Jesus then lands on the Mt. of Olives, as the Jews make their journey back to Jerusalem, they are on God' hands now, all evil will have been wiped out, at least for 1000 years, the Wold will lie down with the sheep for 1000 years. Amen.

    I think Gog and Magog's armies, which include some countries with Muslim majorities today, are the Anti-Christ's armies. Because Gog is someone mentioned by other prophets (Ezekiel 38:17), he is not some obscure actor.
    The Gog and Magog war in Revelation is not the same as the Gog and Magog wars in Ezekiel. If you notice, not one of the Nations mentioned has a Border with Israel, that is because Israel defeats them in the Psalm 83 war, it infuriates the Muslims who get Russia t help them, then as they come close to Jerusalem God destroys them with fire.

    The Gog/Magog war of Revelation is about Satan after hes loosed from the pit, men choose to follow him again t seems.

    Revelation 18:3 For all nations have drunk
    the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality,
    and the kings of the earth have committed immorality with her,
    and the merchants of the earth have grown rich from the power of her luxurious living.”

    This verse speaks of Babylon, and the description perfectly matches the harlot. Babylon is not the kings of the earth. It is a city that is connected to merchants of the sea.
    Babylon is the WHOLE WORLD under Satan. Babylon = False Governance, both Religion and Government can be prostituted. We Worship God but we are also Governed by God. Too many people look at only ONE SIDE of a two sided coin. The Religious Harlot RODE the Gov. Beast.

    This is proved easily. The Kings in league with the Beast HATE the Harlot in Rev. 17:16 and BURN/Destroy her. But in Rev. 18:8-10, the same Kings cry and Lament her destruction and burning !!

    Rev. 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

    Rev. 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

    9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

    10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

    So the Harlot is HATED by the Kings but when Babylon BURNS or is destroyed by these Plagues, the Kings of the earth wail, cry and lament her destruction !! If we look real close here at the black bolded sections we can also see the length of her punishment. In verse 8 it says the Plagues shall come in ONE DAY and of course that day is the Day of the Lord which lasts 3.5 years. Then in verse 10 we see her Judgment is come in ONE HOUR, and in Rev. ch. 17 we see exactly how long ONE HOUR is don't we ? The Kings rule ONE HOUR with the Beast so says Rev. 17:12 !! So ONE HOUR is also 3.5 Years because we know the Beast rules for 42 Months or 1260 days. So now, we can digest this better, you see where I am different than the rest, I don't seek clues to affirm a position and then move on, I seek ALL THE CLUES and then I deduce the whole riddle by making them all fit or else I am not satisfied. Remember, ALL THE CLUES MUST FIT, not just clues that affirm our predetermined understanding.

    The Harlot Religions were always co-mingled with these Government Beasts, until the Last Beast who seeks the total worship of every man, woman and child on earth.

    Sme more clues about who Babylon is.

    Rev. 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

    3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

    4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

    In verse 2 we see that Babylon has become a Habitation of Devils, well of course it has, Babylon = the Whole World and Satan was cast down to earth and has Great Wrath !! Also Apollyon was released from the Pit with a great horde of Demonic beings, so the WORLD has become a Habitation of Devils and Babylon or those CONFUSED PEOPLE of Earth who followed Satan are about to be defeated, Babylon is fallen.

    In verse 4 we see that God is calling Israel to come out of her (THE WORLD) lest they recieve of her Plagues. This is God calling the Jews to Flee Judea, lest they get hit with the Plagues intended for this world and the Wicked men hat live therein.

    In verse 3, that is the main subject of this chapter, the Destruction of Babylon (Worlds) Economy. The Merchants all weep and cry at Babylon (Worlds) destruction. But does THE WORLD fit here ? Of course it does, what does the Seal Trumpet and Vial Plagues destroy ? This WORLD............Thus the Commerce or Economies of this world.

    The Seals are the Anti-Christ who takes peace from the earth, he kills 1.5 to 2 billion people (bad for the Merchants/Economy). Then the Sun, Moon gets dark and the Stars fall from Heaven (I think the stars are the Demons being cast to earth/Satan and company). Then in Rev. 7 the Jews Flee Judea and are protected. Then in Rev. 8 ALL of the grasses burn, 1/3 of the trees burn (bad for the Economies no doubt), 1/3 of all the sea waters turn to blood, 1/3 of all the sea creatures die (Shrimp/Fish), 1/3 of all the Ships are destroyed, 1/3 of all the fresh drinking waters turn to BLOOD !! All of these are hurting those Merchants COMMERCE !! No doubt !! Then we get he 1st Wo where demons will hurt mankind for 5 months, but will not kill them, then the 2nd Woe is an Angelic Army that will kill another 1.5 Billion people. The world will be in constant war, people are dying by the billions, the trees are burning, the grasses are all burne, PLAGUES, PLAGUES, PLAGUES !! Babylon being Destroyed by Plagues is this WHOLE WORLD, Satan's Dark Kingdom on earth is being Judged !! Governance of mankind has been PROSTITUTED, just like those worshiping false gods prostitute themselves.

    The Harlot and Babylon are TWO DIFFERENT ENTITIES.

    Thanks for introducing me to that part of history.
    I was studying for Daniel 11 & 12, I think my thread is still on the front page, it details all the Syrian Wars and who each King was. That is how I found out about Jason. He is mentioned in the book of Maccabean 1 or 2 I think, though I haven't read it. But I just kinda out it together from using wikipedia and other Historical writings.

  11. #41

    Re: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    I would have to study the text, am not that familiar with it. There were Two Bazrah's, one was in Edom.
    Sure

    Jesus didn't go to heaven THAT DAY, he went down into earth, "Paradise" or a holding place for the Righteous Jews. Remember the story Jesus told about the great gulf, and told the man he couldn't warn anyone. Jesus only went to Heaven three days later to offer the Sacrifice.

    Paradise is a Persian loanword for "an area enclosed by a wall" or "garden." Its three uses in the Hebrew Bible ( Neh 2:8 ; Eccl 2:5 ; Sol 4:13 ) retain this meaning. The Septuagint uses the Greek paradeisos [paravdeiso"] for the garden of Eden in Genesis (called the "garden of God" in Isa 51:3 ; and Ezek 28:13 ).

    The intertestamental literature completes the transition of the word to a religious term. Human history will culminate in a divine paradise. Since Israel had no immediate access to the garden at history's origin or conclusion, paradise, sometimes called Abraham's Bosom, was associated with the realm of the righteous dead awaiting the resurrection of the body.

    Paul was speaking of the real Heaven, but he nor John actually went there, they just saw a vision. That is why Paul states in body or not I don't know !! Sin Flesh can not enter Heaven. Mary couldn't even touch Jesus before he offered himself a living sacrifice unto God the Father.
    You said "Sin Flesh can not enter Heaven". I imagine the reason is the holiness of God? But Jesus could live among men. And Jesus sanctified Paul and John with His blood. I think you also accepted the exception of Enoch and Elijah. So I don't think sin is preventing believers from being in heaven today. If Jesus received Stephen's spirit, and Jesus is at the right hand of God in heaven, Stephen's spirit should also be in heaven. Paul expected to be with Christ when he died and was away from the body (i.e. before the resurrection of the body).

    Acts 7:59 NIV While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

    Philippians 1:23 NIV I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

    I think they were going to try and reach Petra, Edom etc. etc. Southern Jordan and kill the rest of the Jews, but they also understood they were in the Wrath of God, they understood that from Seal #6 on, even though the Wrath actually starts at Seal #1, because of the Supernatural elements of the 6th Seal. They will understand exact what is coming, trust me, after anyone sees three years of Wrath come to pass, many will have read the bible, others saw the Two-witnesses prophesying what was about to hit them just before it hit, they die at the 2nd Woe, but not before prophesying the 3rd Woe is upon mankind.

    Jesus, wit the Church in tow, lands in Petra (in the EAST) and I think the "144,000" will join us which is more like 2-3 million Jews, and then Jesus just lands on the Mt. of Olives and splits it into, and speaks victory over the Beas and his Kingdoms at Armageddon. Jesus doesn't have to go there to defeat them, Jesus is omnipresent, he just speaks the victory, WITHOUT HAND !! So we pick up the Jews in Petra, but Jesus then lands on the Mt. of Olives, as the Jews make their journey back to Jerusalem, they are on God' hands now, all evil will have been wiped out, at least for 1000 years, the Wold will lie down with the sheep for 1000 years. Amen.
    You said the wrath of God starts at Seal #1. But at Seal #5, the martyrs are asking when they would be avenged. It sounds like God's wrath had not started yet.

    You are proposing that Jesus lands in Petra before He lands on the Mount of Olives? Is this based on Isaiah 63:1-3? Actually, Isaiah 63:1-3 is describing the situation AFTER the battle is won. It is not Jesus' initial landing.

    The Gog and Magog war in Revelation is not the same as the Gog and Magog wars in Ezekiel. If you notice, not one of the Nations mentioned has a Border with Israel, that is because Israel defeats them in the Psalm 83 war, it infuriates the Muslims who get Russia t help them, then as they come close to Jerusalem God destroys them with fire.

    The Gog/Magog war of Revelation is about Satan after hes loosed from the pit, men choose to follow him again t seems.
    You are expecting three wars: 1) Psalm 83 2) Ezekiel 38-39 3) Anti-Christ invades. I agree there are two different wars involving Gog and Magog in Ezekiel and Revelation. I was referring to the Ezekiel battle, and identifying Gog in Ezekiel with the anti-Christ, not some previous attacking force, because God said there were previous prophecies about Gog (e.g. Joel 3 which talks about the battle of the anti-Christ.)

    Babylon is the WHOLE WORLD under Satan. Babylon = False Governance, both Religion and Government can be prostituted. We Worship God but we are also Governed by God. Too many people look at only ONE SIDE of a two sided coin. The Religious Harlot RODE the Gov. Beast.

    This is proved easily. The Kings in league with the Beast HATE the Harlot in Rev. 17:16 and BURN/Destroy her. But in Rev. 18:8-10, the same Kings cry and Lament her destruction and burning !!

    Rev. 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

    Rev. 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

    9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

    10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

    So the Harlot is HATED by the Kings but when Babylon BURNS or is destroyed by these Plagues, the Kings of the earth wail, cry and lament her destruction !! If we look real close here at the black bolded sections we can also see the length of her punishment. In verse 8 it says the Plagues shall come in ONE DAY and of course that day is the Day of the Lord which lasts 3.5 years. Then in verse 10 we see her Judgment is come in ONE HOUR, and in Rev. ch. 17 we see exactly how long ONE HOUR is don't we ? The Kings rule ONE HOUR with the Beast so says Rev. 17:12 !! So ONE HOUR is also 3.5 Years because we know the Beast rules for 42 Months or 1260 days. So now, we can digest this better, you see where I am different than the rest, I don't seek clues to affirm a position and then move on, I seek ALL THE CLUES and then I deduce the whole riddle by making them all fit or else I am not satisfied. Remember, ALL THE CLUES MUST FIT, not just clues that affirm our predetermined understanding.

    The Harlot Religions were always co-mingled with these Government Beasts, until the Last Beast who seeks the total worship of every man, woman and child on earth.

    Sme more clues about who Babylon is.

    Rev. 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

    3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

    4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

    In verse 2 we see that Babylon has become a Habitation of Devils, well of course it has, Babylon = the Whole World and Satan was cast down to earth and has Great Wrath !! Also Apollyon was released from the Pit with a great horde of Demonic beings, so the WORLD has become a Habitation of Devils and Babylon or those CONFUSED PEOPLE of Earth who followed Satan are about to be defeated, Babylon is fallen.

    In verse 4 we see that God is calling Israel to come out of her (THE WORLD) lest they recieve of her Plagues. This is God calling the Jews to Flee Judea, lest they get hit with the Plagues intended for this world and the Wicked men hat live therein.

    In verse 3, that is the main subject of this chapter, the Destruction of Babylon (Worlds) Economy. The Merchants all weep and cry at Babylon (Worlds) destruction. But does THE WORLD fit here ? Of course it does, what does the Seal Trumpet and Vial Plagues destroy ? This WORLD............Thus the Commerce or Economies of this world.

    The Seals are the Anti-Christ who takes peace from the earth, he kills 1.5 to 2 billion people (bad for the Merchants/Economy). Then the Sun, Moon gets dark and the Stars fall from Heaven (I think the stars are the Demons being cast to earth/Satan and company). Then in Rev. 7 the Jews Flee Judea and are protected. Then in Rev. 8 ALL of the grasses burn, 1/3 of the trees burn (bad for the Economies no doubt), 1/3 of all the sea waters turn to blood, 1/3 of all the sea creatures die (Shrimp/Fish), 1/3 of all the Ships are destroyed, 1/3 of all the fresh drinking waters turn to BLOOD !! All of these are hurting those Merchants COMMERCE !! No doubt !! Then we get he 1st Wo where demons will hurt mankind for 5 months, but will not kill them, then the 2nd Woe is an Angelic Army that will kill another 1.5 Billion people. The world will be in constant war, people are dying by the billions, the trees are burning, the grasses are all burne, PLAGUES, PLAGUES, PLAGUES !! Babylon being Destroyed by Plagues is this WHOLE WORLD, Satan's Dark Kingdom on earth is being Judged !! Governance of mankind has been PROSTITUTED, just like those worshiping false gods prostitute themselves.

    The Harlot and Babylon are TWO DIFFERENT ENTITIES.
    You said "both Religion and Government can be prostituted". The word prostitute refers to a harlot. The sexual immorality of Babylon in Rev. 18:3 identifies Babylon as a harlot. The question then is: is it the same harlot or a different harlot? Since no other harlot is mentioned... it should be the same harlot.

    The ten kings hate the harlot. There are other kings in the world who lament the harlot. This does not prove that the harlot is not Babylon. Both the harlot and Babylon are destroyed by fire.

    You said the Jews should flee Babylon by fleeing Judea. But how does Judea = Babylon now? How can places outside Judea be any less Babylon (if Babylon is the world)?

    I was studying for Daniel 11 & 12, I think my thread is still on the front page, it details all the Syrian Wars and who each King was. That is how I found out about Jason. He is mentioned in the book of Maccabean 1 or 2 I think, though I haven't read it. But I just kinda out it together from using wikipedia and other Historical writings.
    You should read about the Great Persecution in AD 303-313 too. It's described in Foxes' Book of Martyrs, Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, Lactantius' On the Deaths of the Persecutors.

  12. #42
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    Re: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    Sure



    You said "Sin Flesh can not enter Heaven". I imagine the reason is the holiness of God? But Jesus could live among men. And Jesus sanctified Paul and John with His blood. I think you also accepted the exception of Enoch and Elijah. So I don't think sin is preventing believers from being in heaven today. If Jesus received Stephen's spirit, and Jesus is at the right hand of God in heaven, Stephen's spirit should also be in heaven. Paul expected to be with Christ when he died and was away from the body (i.e. before the resurrection of the body).

    Acts 7:59 NIV While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

    Philippians 1:23 NIV I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.
    For Starters, if Christians went to Heaven NOW or as soon as they died they wouldn't have sin flesh, thus they would be Spirit Men, and get a new glorious body in heaven. They are not in Heaven because that is not God's plan, as the bible states, the DEAD in Christ are raised and then those who are ALIVE and remain. John and Paul would still have SIN FLESH because we know they continued their earthly ministries afterwards, so they did not go to Heaven. Whereas Elijah and Moses must have been translated and thus have received their Glorious bodies ahead of Schedule, God can do that if He so desires, He is God after all, but that is not the plan for the Church in general.

    As per Jesus being on earth with sinners. God the Father has the ABUNDANCE of the Glory. Moses could not look upon the Father lest he died. Jesus is not the ABUNDANCE of the Glory, Jesus is the exact LIKENESS (Peace, Hope, Love, Joy, Kindness, etc.) but Jesus is not the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit the Father, they each have unique offices. Why do you think Jesus cried My God, My God, why have you forsaken (left) me ? You ever thought about that ? Well God had to leave Jesus on the cross all alone when all of our sins came upon Christ Jesus. God's presence will consume sin, that is why sinners can't come to Heaven, they condemn themselves to a life outside of God's presence.

    The Holy Spirit can live in our hearts, if the fullness of God lived in your heart you could not survive as a Human being. The Holy Spirit is God but not the FULLNESS of His Glory, only God the Father has the FULLNESS of the Glory. Moses hair turned White when he looked at His hinder parts. The Priests were warned not to look in the Ark of the Covenant, less they die !!

    God receives all of our Spirits, but we are not going straight to Heaven, either we rest in a good place or a bad place, awaiting our judgment.

    You said the wrath of God starts at Seal #1. But at Seal #5, the martyrs are asking when they would be avenged. It sounds like God's wrath had not started yet.

    You are proposing that Jesus lands in Petra before He lands on the Mount of Olives? Is this based on Isaiah 63:1-3? Actually, Isaiah 63:1-3 is describing the situation AFTER the battle is won. It is not Jesus' initial landing.
    The Wrath of God is not about avenging people on earth per se, it's about God's Wrath that has built up over the centuries. They want to see this come to pass, thus they ask what they ask, then Jesus tells them they must wait until the Beasts rule is finished. Jesus opens the first four seals and mankind dies by the billions, what else would it be ? Revelation 6:16 tells us it's the Lambs Wrath !!

    It is possible, he has the 144,000 with him, it's not really important which order he does it in. I don't allow minutia to bog me down. If scriptures say he comes from there, if scriptures say he comes from the Eastern Skies elsewhere, there is a very good possibility he goes there first, then lands on the Mt. of Olives, but overall, whatever he chooses to do is not really relevant to the facts, Jesus will land on the Mt. of Olives and then destroy the Wicked gathered at Armageddon. It might be important to some, but not to me.

    You are expecting three wars: 1) Psalm 83 2) Ezekiel 38-39 3) Anti-Christ invades. I agree there are two different wars involving Gog and Magog in Ezekiel and Revelation. I was referring to the Ezekiel battle, and identifying Gog in Ezekiel with the anti-Christ, not some previous attacking force, because God said there were previous prophecies about Gog (e.g. Joel 3 which talks about the battle of the anti-Christ.)
    Some people say there will be 9 wars ahead of us. The Psalm 83 war is evident, then in the Ezekiel war, no nation that is spoken of has a BORDER with Israel, thus one would assume that there must be two Wars, one that wipes out the INNER CIRCLE and one where God Himself wipes out the OUTER CIRCLE.


    You said "both Religion and Government can be prostituted". The word prostitute refers to a harlot. The sexual immorality of Babylon in Rev. 18:3 identifies Babylon as a harlot. The question then is: is it the same harlot or a different harlot? Since no other harlot is mentioned... it should be the same harlot.

    The ten kings hate the harlot. There are other kings in the world who lament the harlot. This does not prove that the harlot is not Babylon. Both the harlot and Babylon are destroyed by fire.

    You said the Jews should flee Babylon by fleeing Judea. But how does Judea = Babylon now? How can places outside Judea be any less Babylon (if Babylon is the world)?
    False Religion = a Prostitute as well as False Government when they forsake their God. Two husbands can both have Harlot wives !! Neither have anything to do with sex of course, its Metaphoric in Nature. I showed you why they are different, one is a Religious Harlot as spoken of in Rev. 17. The other is a Government Harlot as spoken of in Rev. 18. One is called THE HARLOT the other is called BABYLON, Religion and Governance. The Harlot RIDES the Beast, they are co-mingled.

    The 10 Kings KILL HER OFF !! She is no more !! So what are you even talking about ? How is Babylon the Harlot when she has been killed off. Judea = Babylon because the Beast Conques and rules Judea/Jerusalem fr 42 Months. Babylon represents the WORLD CONFUSED BY SATAN. That is what Babel means, confusion. The better question is why would anyone think God destroys ONE CITY ? The Commerce proves it is a Government ENTITY.......And thus it is the Whole World. That is what happens during the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments, God brings the whole world to heel, not one city somewhere.

    Why did Jesus use the code word Babylon ? Well if John writes these things about BABYLON, the Roman Gov. just laughed at him as a FLAKEY Religious nut job, but if he stated the WORLD was Going to be Destroyed by God/Fire/Plagues then they would have confiscated the book of Revelation and probably persecuted the Asia Minor Churches even more. Babylon is used in a way where it covers 10 percent of the book of Revelation, did you know that ? Its not about a city that will never be reborn, it is a Metaphor for this Evil World. Its a code word in a book of coded lingo.

    When it's all said and done the Harlot is all false religions and the Beast is going to kill her off, and Babylon is all the Governments of the World and thus Satan's Kingdom on earth. It is going to fall........Well what falls ? Who has dominion over this world ? Satan of course. I mean I have a 2 year old blog that covers it in detail.

    You should read about the Great Persecution in AD 303-313 too. It's described in Foxes' Book of Martyrs, Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, Lactantius' On the Deaths of the Persecutors.
    I have heard of that book, bt I don't think I have ever studied it.

  13. #43

    Re: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    For Starters, if Christians went to Heaven NOW or as soon as they died they wouldn't have sin flesh, thus they would be Spirit Men, and get a new glorious body in heaven. They are not in Heaven because that is not God's plan, as the bible states, the DEAD in Christ are raised and then those who are ALIVE and remain. John and Paul would still have SIN FLESH because we know they continued their earthly ministries afterwards, so they did not go to Heaven. Whereas Elijah and Moses must have been translated and thus have received their Glorious bodies ahead of Schedule, God can do that if He so desires, He is God after all, but that is not the plan for the Church in general.

    As per Jesus being on earth with sinners. God the Father has the ABUNDANCE of the Glory. Moses could not look upon the Father lest he died. Jesus is not the ABUNDANCE of the Glory, Jesus is the exact LIKENESS (Peace, Hope, Love, Joy, Kindness, etc.) but Jesus is not the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit the Father, they each have unique offices. Why do you think Jesus cried My God, My God, why have you forsaken (left) me ? You ever thought about that ? Well God had to leave Jesus on the cross all alone when all of our sins came upon Christ Jesus. God's presence will consume sin, that is why sinners can't come to Heaven, they condemn themselves to a life outside of God's presence.

    The Holy Spirit can live in our hearts, if the fullness of God lived in your heart you could not survive as a Human being. The Holy Spirit is God but not the FULLNESS of His Glory, only God the Father has the FULLNESS of the Glory. Moses hair turned White when he looked at His hinder parts. The Priests were warned not to look in the Ark of the Covenant, less they die !!

    God receives all of our Spirits, but we are not going straight to Heaven, either we rest in a good place or a bad place, awaiting our judgment.
    As Christians that are forgiven by the blood of Jesus, we can enter even the Most Holy Place, which contains the ark of the covenant and the mercy seat and God's very presence.

    Hebrews 10:19 NIV Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body,

    I think you read too much into Jesus' words about God forsaking Him. God forsook Jesus by not saving Him. See Psalm 22:1. The Father was with Jesus. The Holy Spirit was with Jesus.

    Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from my cries of anguish?
    John 16:32 “A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.
    Hebrews 9:14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!


    Jesus has the fullness of God.

    Colossians 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

    The Wrath of God is not about avenging people on earth per se, it's about God's Wrath that has built up over the centuries. They want to see this come to pass, thus they ask what they ask, then Jesus tells them they must wait until the Beasts rule is finished. Jesus opens the first four seals and mankind dies by the billions, what else would it be ? Revelation 6:16 tells us it's the Lambs Wrath !!
    Revelation 6:16 tells us the day that the sun and moon are darkened is the Lamb's wrath. It does not explicitly say that the first 4 seals are the Lamb's wrath. I agree that God could be angry when opening the first 4 seals, but I'm pointing out that they are not necessarily at the time of the last 3.5 years based on Rev. 6:16 alone. It seems that the large number of deaths is crucial to your argument. I must contend again that the 4th rider has power over 1/4 of the earth to kill, but it does not say that the 4th rider will kill the entire population in 1/4 of the earth.

    It is possible, he has the 144,000 with him, it's not really important which order he does it in. I don't allow minutia to bog me down. If scriptures say he comes from there, if scriptures say he comes from the Eastern Skies elsewhere, there is a very good possibility he goes there first, then lands on the Mt. of Olives, but overall, whatever he chooses to do is not really relevant to the facts, Jesus will land on the Mt. of Olives and then destroy the Wicked gathered at Armageddon. It might be important to some, but not to me.
    Where in the Scriptures does it talk about Jesus coming from the Eastern skies?

    Some people say there will be 9 wars ahead of us. The Psalm 83 war is evident, then in the Ezekiel war, no nation that is spoken of has a BORDER with Israel, thus one would assume that there must be two Wars, one that wipes out the INNER CIRCLE and one where God Himself wipes out the OUTER CIRCLE.
    Note also that both the war in Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 19 end with a feast for the birds.

    Ezekiel 39:17 “Son of man, this is what the Sovereign Lord says: Call out to every kind of bird and all the wild animals: ‘Assemble and come together from all around to the sacrifice I am preparing for you, the great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel. There you will eat flesh and drink blood.
    Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God,

    At the end of the battle in Ezekiel 39, God promises not to hide his face from Israel any more -- i.e. He will help them. The time of Jacob's trouble CANNOT be some time in the next 7 years! It sounds more like the beginning of the 1000 years.

    Ezekiel 39:29 I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the people of Israel, declares the Sovereign Lord.”

    False Religion = a Prostitute as well as False Government when they forsake their God. Two husbands can both have Harlot wives !! Neither have anything to do with sex of course, its Metaphoric in Nature. I showed you why they are different, one is a Religious Harlot as spoken of in Rev. 17. The other is a Government Harlot as spoken of in Rev. 18. One is called THE HARLOT the other is called BABYLON, Religion and Governance. The Harlot RIDES the Beast, they are co-mingled.

    The 10 Kings KILL HER OFF !! She is no more !! So what are you even talking about ? How is Babylon the Harlot when she has been killed off. Judea = Babylon because the Beast Conques and rules Judea/Jerusalem fr 42 Months. Babylon represents the WORLD CONFUSED BY SATAN. That is what Babel means, confusion. The better question is why would anyone think God destroys ONE CITY ? The Commerce proves it is a Government ENTITY.......And thus it is the Whole World. That is what happens during the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments, God brings the whole world to heel, not one city somewhere.

    Why did Jesus use the code word Babylon ? Well if John writes these things about BABYLON, the Roman Gov. just laughed at him as a FLAKEY Religious nut job, but if he stated the WORLD was Going to be Destroyed by God/Fire/Plagues then they would have confiscated the book of Revelation and probably persecuted the Asia Minor Churches even more. Babylon is used in a way where it covers 10 percent of the book of Revelation, did you know that ? Its not about a city that will never be reborn, it is a Metaphor for this Evil World. Its a code word in a book of coded lingo.

    When it's all said and done the Harlot is all false religions and the Beast is going to kill her off, and Babylon is all the Governments of the World and thus Satan's Kingdom on earth. It is going to fall........Well what falls ? Who has dominion over this world ? Satan of course. I mean I have a 2 year old blog that covers it in detail.
    So you are saying there are two harlots: harlot/False religion, and Babylon/False Government. Let me show you the similarities between the two. There is a strong case to identify the harlot with Babylon.

    Harlot Babylon
    sexual immorality with kings (Rev. 17:2) sexual immorality with kings (Rev. 18:3)
    those who dwell in the earth were made drunken with the wine of her sexual immorality (Rev. 17:2) For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her sexual immorality(Rev. 18:3)
    dressed in purple and scarlet (Rev. 17:4) buys merchandise of purple and scarlet (Rev. 18:12)
    decked with gold and precious stones and pearls (Rev. 17:4) buys merchandise of gold, precious stones, pearls (Rev. 18:12)
    name on forehead: Babylon the Great (Rev. 17:5) called Babylon the Great (Rev. 18:2)
    blood of saints and martyrs of Jesus (Rev. 17:5) blood of prophets and saints (Rev. 18:24)
    made desolate (Rev. 17:16) made desolate (Rev. 18:19)
    burned with fire (Rev. 17:16) burned with fire (Rev. 18:8)
    great city (Rev. 17:18) great city (Rev. 18:18)

    You mentioned that the 10 horns have already killed the harlot by Rev. 18. Remember that the Book of Revelation is not always strictly chronological. Note also that the killing of the harlot in Rev. 17:16 is in the future tense.

    I have heard of that book, bt I don't think I have ever studied it.
    Well, if you have time, the last one by Lactantius reads like a story book.

  14. #44
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    Re: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    As Christians that are forgiven by the blood of Jesus, we can enter even the Most Holy Place, which contains the ark of the covenant and the mercy seat and God's very presence.

    Hebrews 10:19 NIV Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body,

    I think you read too much into Jesus' words about God forsaking Him. God forsook Jesus by not saving Him. See Psalm 22:1. The Father was with Jesus. The Holy Spirit was with Jesus.

    Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from my cries of anguish?
    John 16:32 “A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.
    Hebrews 9:14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!


    Jesus has the fullness of God.

    Colossians 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

    As could the High Priests, but they could not look at God. We are in the presence of the Holy Spirit, not the Full Glory of God. I will have to demonstrate it seems to get the point across in the end, it is a part of my Trinity teaching, so it's no problem to bring up, on down I will finish with that. So I will tackle the "FULLNESS OF GOD" first.

    Jesus is the Fullness of God in ESSENCE (Likeness) but he is not the FULLNESS of God in Glory, God the Father has the Abundance of the Glory. Jesus could walk with men, Moses could not look upon God.


    Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the EXACT LIKENESS of God, but Jesus is not the Father and God is not the Son. The Trinity goes like this: DEMONSTRATION:

    Take three trillion gallons of water, all three trillion gallons has the EXACT SAME MAKEUP, the same chemical makeup in every drop. THEN.....

    Take 100 gallons (Jesus) and pour it over your head, you will of course be soaking wet, but you will be OK no doubt. Then take another 100 gallons (Holy Spirit) and pour that over your head also, you will once again be soaking wet, but once again, you should be OK. Now, take all three trillion gallons of water (God the Father) and pour that over your head and you will surely die from the vast Glory of the water, not from the chemical makeup, not from a portion of the water which would make you like unto God, but from the VAST Glory of the Water's three trillion gallons you would surely die.

    God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are ONE and the sam in ESSENCE makeup/the Chemical likeness of the water so to speak, in that they are LOVE, JOY, PEACE, HOPE, LONGSUFFERING, MERCIFUL, KIND, GENTLE, FORGIVING, etc. etc. thus Jesus was the EXPRESS IMAGE of the Father, they are ONE AND THE SAME in likeness, but God is the Father and has the abundance of the Glory. The Holy Spirit can live in our Hearts and crate in us A new heart like unto the IMAGE of God, but God the Father's FULLNESS could not live in us, we would explode from the Glory of God !!!

    God can not be in the Presence of Sin, His Glory would wipe it out, God left Jesus on the cross when our sins were upon him. Jesus told Mary, TOUCH ME NOT for I have not yet ascended to the Father, Mary's mere touch would have defiled the Sacrifice Jesus was about to offer unto the Father. God's holiness can not suffer sin.

    The FULLNESS = God's LIKENESS not His Glory. Jesus is FULLY like God in ESSENCE, not FULLY the Father however. Only the Father is the Father.


    Revelation 6:16 tells us the day that the sun and moon are darkened is the Lamb's wrath. It does not explicitly say that the first 4 seals are the Lamb's wrath. I agree that God could be angry when opening the first 4 seals, but I'm pointing out that they are not necessarily at the time of the last 3.5 years based on Rev. 6:16 alone. It seems that the large number of deaths is crucial to your argument. I must contend again that the 4th rider has power over 1/4 of the earth to kill, but it does not say that the 4th rider will kill the entire population in 1/4 of the earth.
    I am not going to debate you on what I have studied 30 years brother, every major prophecy guy understands this to be 1/4 of all men will be killed. Have it as you will, but I ain't buying it at all, it is not even debatable to me. God says the whole world will be made to worship the Beast, not 1/4. So 1.5 to 2 billion people are going to die, and Islam will be wiped off the face of the earth.

    Jesus opens the Seals, of course it's the Lamb's Wrath. Men only realize it when they see the Joel 2 events come to pass, that doesn't mean it just started, it means they just figured it out. God has PERFECT SYMMETRY, he just doesn't start things in the middle.


    Where in the Scriptures does it talk about Jesus coming from the Eastern skies?
    Matthew 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

    Note also that both the war in Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 19 end with a feast for the birds.

    Ezekiel 39:17 “Son of man, this is what the Sovereign Lord says: Call out to every kind of bird and all the wild animals: ‘Assemble and come together from all around to the sacrifice I am preparing for you, the great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel. There you will eat flesh and drink blood.
    Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God,

    At the end of the battle in Ezekiel 39, God promises not to hide his face from Israel any more -- i.e. He will help them. The time of Jacob's trouble CANNOT be some time in the next 7 years! It sounds more like the beginning of the 1000 years.

    Ezekiel 39:29 I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the people of Israel, declares the Sovereign Lord.”
    This is the Marriage Supper as per Rev. 19. We are to FEAST (Metaphorically speaking) on the Wicked. The Carcass verse in Matt. 24:28 is Jesus also telling his Disciples and the Jews living in the end times, that the Eagles (Church)will e with him at the Carcass, not n a Desert or Secret Chambers (Storeroom).

    So you are saying there are two harlots: harlot/False religion, and Babylon/False Government. Let me show you the similarities between the two. There is a strong case to identify the harlot with Babylon.

    Harlot Babylon
    sexual immorality with kings (Rev. 17:2) sexual immorality with kings (Rev. 18:3)
    those who dwell in the earth were made drunken with the wine of her sexual immorality (Rev. 17:2) For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her sexual immorality(Rev. 18:3)
    dressed in purple and scarlet (Rev. 17:4) buys merchandise of purple and scarlet (Rev. 18:12)
    decked with gold and precious stones and pearls (Rev. 17:4) buys merchandise of gold, precious stones, pearls (Rev. 18:12)
    name on forehead: Babylon the Great (Rev. 17:5) called Babylon the Great (Rev. 18:2)
    blood of saints and martyrs of Jesus (Rev. 17:5) blood of prophets and saints (Rev. 18:24)
    made desolate (Rev. 17:16) made desolate (Rev. 18:19)
    burned with fire (Rev. 17:16) burned with fire (Rev. 18:8)
    great city (Rev. 17:18) great city (Rev. 18:18)

    You mentioned that the 10 horns have already killed the harlot by Rev. 18. Remember that the Book of Revelation is not always strictly chronological. Note also that the killing of the harlot in Rev. 17:16 is in the future tense.
    Neither 17 or 18 are a part of the Chronological Order of the book of Revelation. In Rev. 17 the Harlot is KILLED OFF, we also see in Rev. 13 a False Prophets BEASTS over Religion, the two go hand in hand. But Babylon's COMMERCE is Destroyed, its Government, that is quite clear. The Harlot RIDES the Beast !! Israel had a Priesthood and a King. The Beast's 10 Kings kill off ALL RELIGION thus False Religion is JUDGED. The Judgments of Babylon are more specific, everything that hits her happens over a 42 Months period, thus she survives until the Beast is terminated, ONE HOUR = 42 Months.............ONE DAY = 42 Months or the Day of the Lord. The Harlot however is destroyed by the Kings in league with the Beast.

    1.) Kings of this wicked world have FORNICATED with FALSE GODS and with Satan the one that rules over this world as Luke 4 shows us and as Paul stated, he is the god of this world. He told Jesus all of these Kingdoms were his and he does what so ever he wills with them.

    2.) People of the earth have followed FALSE GODS......................Kings of the earth have RULED FALSELY not Godly in nature !!

    3.) Purple and Scarlet signify Religious Orders and Royalty, Purple was an EXCLUSIVE/Expensive color. All Religions and many Kings wore these colors.

    4.) They have nothing to do with each other, ones the picture of Dan. 5 (Mene, Mene, Tekel) where Belshazzar allowed his court to drink out of the Cups from God's Temple and thereby Mene Mene Tekel on the Wall. In Rev. 18 it's just speaking of how the bought the Commerce.

    5.) The Name on the FOREHEAD was Babylon, it shows she was originated/associated/flourished in Babylon, there were THREE OTHER NAMES on her forehead also.

    6.) False Religion practices killed the Saints and Christians.............Likewise False Government Beasts killed the Saints and Christian Martyrs.

    7.) The Harlot will be DEFEATED........................as will Babylon.

    8.) The Harlot will be Judged but being burned with fire is a Metaphor, she will also be DESTROYED...........Babylon (the World) is burned, all of the Grasses and 1/3 of the trees.

    9.) The Harlot is Associated with Babylon.........................Babylon is then DESTROYED.

    The Harlot RIDES the Beast.

  15. #45

    Re: Possible Explanation of first 5 seals

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    As could the High Priests, but they could not look at God. We are in the presence of the Holy Spirit, not the Full Glory of God. I will have to demonstrate it seems to get the point across in the end, it is a part of my Trinity teaching, so it's no problem to bring up, on down I will finish with that. So I will tackle the "FULLNESS OF GOD" first.

    Jesus is the Fullness of God in ESSENCE (Likeness) but he is not the FULLNESS of God in Glory, God the Father has the Abundance of the Glory. Jesus could walk with men, Moses could not look upon God.


    Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the EXACT LIKENESS of God, but Jesus is not the Father and God is not the Son. The Trinity goes like this: DEMONSTRATION:

    Take three trillion gallons of water, all three trillion gallons has the EXACT SAME MAKEUP, the same chemical makeup in every drop. THEN.....

    Take 100 gallons (Jesus) and pour it over your head, you will of course be soaking wet, but you will be OK no doubt. Then take another 100 gallons (Holy Spirit) and pour that over your head also, you will once again be soaking wet, but once again, you should be OK. Now, take all three trillion gallons of water (God the Father) and pour that over your head and you will surely die from the vast Glory of the water, not from the chemical makeup, not from a portion of the water which would make you like unto God, but from the VAST Glory of the Water's three trillion gallons you would surely die.

    God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are ONE and the sam in ESSENCE makeup/the Chemical likeness of the water so to speak, in that they are LOVE, JOY, PEACE, HOPE, LONGSUFFERING, MERCIFUL, KIND, GENTLE, FORGIVING, etc. etc. thus Jesus was the EXPRESS IMAGE of the Father, they are ONE AND THE SAME in likeness, but God is the Father and has the abundance of the Glory. The Holy Spirit can live in our Hearts and crate in us A new heart like unto the IMAGE of God, but God the Father's FULLNESS could not live in us, we would explode from the Glory of God !!!

    God can not be in the Presence of Sin, His Glory would wipe it out, God left Jesus on the cross when our sins were upon him. Jesus told Mary, TOUCH ME NOT for I have not yet ascended to the Father, Mary's mere touch would have defiled the Sacrifice Jesus was about to offer unto the Father. God's holiness can not suffer sin.

    The FULLNESS = God's LIKENESS not His Glory. Jesus is FULLY like God in ESSENCE, not FULLY the Father however. Only the Father is the Father.
    That's an interesting description of the Trinity. Your first statement fails though. You said Jesus is fullness of God in essence but not in glory. Jesus has ALL of God's fullness in Him.

    Colossians 1:19 NIV For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,

    Hebrews 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

    The high priests could only enter the Most Holy Place with blood and smoke from the incense. We enter by a new and living way. If we are forgiven, we are completely forgiven, including our bodies.

    I am not going to debate you on what I have studied 30 years brother, every major prophecy guy understands this to be 1/4 of all men will be killed. Have it as you will, but I ain't buying it at all, it is not even debatable to me. God says the whole world will be made to worship the Beast, not 1/4. So 1.5 to 2 billion people are going to die, and Islam will be wiped off the face of the earth.
    They may understand that, but the text does not force that understanding. You are right that God says the whole world will be made to worship the Beast, not 1/4. The 4th rider only has power over 1/4 of the earth because the 4th rider is not the Beast!

    Jesus opens the Seals, of course it's the Lamb's Wrath. Men only realize it when they see the Joel 2 events come to pass, that doesn't mean it just started, it means they just figured it out. God has PERFECT SYMMETRY, he just doesn't start things in the middle.
    About the sun darkening and the moon turning to blood, do you think this is AFTER the tribulation? I think it is after, and therefore Rev. 6:12b-17 is actually a thematic preview while the sealing of the 144,000 is the main event in the 6th seal.

    Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’"

    Matthew 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    Thanks for the verse. It sounds like an analogy about the visibility of lightning, rather than stating that Jesus would literally come from the east (He might, but also He might not).

    This is the Marriage Supper as per Rev. 19. We are to FEAST (Metaphorically speaking) on the Wicked. The Carcass verse in Matt. 24:28 is Jesus also telling his Disciples and the Jews living in the end times, that the Eagles (Church)will e with him at the Carcass, not n a Desert or Secret Chambers (Storeroom).
    So you agree that the Marriage Supper follows the Battle of Gog and Magog in Ezekiel 39? That would mean that Gog = anti-Christ, right?

    Neither 17 or 18 are a part of the Chronological Order of the book of Revelation. In Rev. 17 the Harlot is KILLED OFF, we also see in Rev. 13 a False Prophets BEASTS over Religion, the two go hand in hand. But Babylon's COMMERCE is Destroyed, its Government, that is quite clear. The Harlot RIDES the Beast !! Israel had a Priesthood and a King. The Beast's 10 Kings kill off ALL RELIGION thus False Religion is JUDGED. The Judgments of Babylon are more specific, everything that hits her happens over a 42 Months period, thus she survives until the Beast is terminated, ONE HOUR = 42 Months.............ONE DAY = 42 Months or the Day of the Lord. The Harlot however is destroyed by the Kings in league with the Beast.

    1.) Kings of this wicked world have FORNICATED with FALSE GODS and with Satan the one that rules over this world as Luke 4 shows us and as Paul stated, he is the god of this world. He told Jesus all of these Kingdoms were his and he does what so ever he wills with them.

    2.) People of the earth have followed FALSE GODS......................Kings of the earth have RULED FALSELY not Godly in nature !!

    3.) Purple and Scarlet signify Religious Orders and Royalty, Purple was an EXCLUSIVE/Expensive color. All Religions and many Kings wore these colors.

    4.) They have nothing to do with each other, ones the picture of Dan. 5 (Mene, Mene, Tekel) where Belshazzar allowed his court to drink out of the Cups from God's Temple and thereby Mene Mene Tekel on the Wall. In Rev. 18 it's just speaking of how the bought the Commerce.

    5.) The Name on the FOREHEAD was Babylon, it shows she was originated/associated/flourished in Babylon, there were THREE OTHER NAMES on her forehead also.

    6.) False Religion practices killed the Saints and Christians.............Likewise False Government Beasts killed the Saints and Christian Martyrs.

    7.) The Harlot will be DEFEATED........................as will Babylon.

    8.) The Harlot will be Judged but being burned with fire is a Metaphor, she will also be DESTROYED...........Babylon (the World) is burned, all of the Grasses and 1/3 of the trees.

    9.) The Harlot is Associated with Babylon.........................Babylon is then DESTROYED.

    The Harlot RIDES the Beast.
    #3 and #4 about purple, scarlet, gold, precious stones, and pearls -- I found a better comparison verse.

    Revelation 17:4 The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls...
    Revelation 18:16 and cry out: “‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet, and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!

    You appealed to the authority of every major prophecy guy to try to dismiss my interpretation about 1/4 of the earth. Which major prophecy guy says that Babylon is not the Harlot? In Revelation 17, the Harlot is not killed off yet. It describes what will happen in the future, e.g. in Revelation 18.

    Revelation 17:16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

    By the way, I don't think the day of the Lord is 42 months. The darkening of the sun and moon is after the tribulation but before the day of the Lord.

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