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Thread: Living Stone Posts

  1. Living Stone Posts

    Thank you all for taking the time to view these posts. I am a current member of Living Stones Bible Church. I have sat under the teaching of Pastor David Leach for the last 6 years and been changed by God through the truths in these messages. I am the person who put those messages on Sermon Central as well as many other sites with his full awareness and approval, there is no plagiarism here. I have constructed Living Stones website - www.madelikechrist.com. My only desire with these posts are to strengthen and encourage my brothers and sisters in Christ, just as I have been. God used others, Andrew Murray, A. B. Simpson, George Muller, Hudson Taylor and others that know Him to share God’s truth with me, and the truth, God’s word has work mightily in me as I believe them. I spent decades of my natural life as a christian in the natural part of me, that is my flesh, not knowing my heavenly Father gave me a spirit, “a heart to know Him.” All those years I tried in my own strength to appropriate the knowledge of God thru my human intelligence, which ended in failure. And rightfully so, Jesus said, “Whoever has ears, let them hear.” This is not just hearing with our natural ears, otherwise all would hear and be saved. No it is much deeper, it is a hearing in the spirit. Our prideful intellects are the great hinderance, the veil that lies over our hearts. That’s why Jesus says, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things (the understanding of God’s word) from the wise and well educated (by this worlds standards) and revealed them to little children (humble, teachable, not masked with pride)… But when a person, the unconverted or a christian, “turns”, that is, away from self dependence toward God with the humble, teachable heart He gives them at the new birth and they hear, believe, with their heart what the Spirit says personally to them, “there is liberty.”

    God bless you, your brother in Christ

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    Re: Living Stone Posts

    You will find most people around here are exaulted by discussion and interaction.

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    Re: Living Stone Posts

    Would you please go back to this thread and answer my question ? https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...reat-concealer

    Here is the question again .
    What do you mean by not fully saved ? Half way saved , 30% saved ?

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    Re: Living Stone Posts

    Maybe you can kindly answer my concerns on this thread?

    https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...all-is-impure!

  5. Re: Living Stone Posts

    A brief response isn't sufficient, but I'll start here. Consider these truths,

    Matt 25:1-3 (Jesus) The kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Now five of them were…foolish (who) took their lamps and took no oil with them,

    The ten virgins are born again Christians made pure or chaste by Christ (2 Cor 11:2). The oil in scripture is always a symbol of the Holy Spirit (1 Sam 16:13). The five foolish Christians were without the Holy Spirit, not sealed, and missed Christ’s second coming.

    Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit …if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance… These are Christians that departed from the faith, so its clear if we do so we forfeit our salvation.

    Ezek 18:24 But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity…shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
    Ezek 33:12 …'The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the
    day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live because of his righteousness in the day that he sins.


    Past righteousness isn’t a laurel I can rest on. Christians who are Christ’s true bride must be righteous, at Christ’s return:
    1 Thes 3:13 …Your hearts blameless (sinless – TLB) in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

    Please consider the following short passages of scripture from three books of the Bible:

    Heb 10:26-29 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the
    truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins…(having) trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?


    Jude 5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt (which is a symbol of conversion to Christ), afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

    2 Pe 2:10-20 …Those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of unclean-ness and despise authority…They have forsaken the right way and gone astray…for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. If, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.


    I'll follow this up with you tomorrow, need to go for now, God bless you

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    Re: Living Stone Posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Living Stone View Post
    I am the person who put those messages on Sermon Central as well as many other sites with his full awareness and approval, there is no plagiarism here.
    That's fine. Just always cite the source when you post one of these sermons. Or any other material that you, yourself, did not write. That's a courtesy to the original author and those here or anywhere you post across the net who read it.
    ".....it's your nickel"

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    Re: Living Stone Posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Living Stone View Post
    A brief response isn't sufficient, but I'll start here. Consider these truths,

    Matt 25:1-3 (Jesus) The kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Now five of them were…foolish (who) took their lamps and took no oil with them,

    The ten virgins are born again Christians made pure or chaste by Christ (2 Cor 11:2). The oil in scripture is always a symbol of the Holy Spirit (1 Sam 16:13). The five foolish Christians were without the Holy Spirit, not sealed, and missed Christ’s second coming.

    Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit …if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance… These are Christians that departed from the faith, so its clear if we do so we forfeit our salvation.

    Ezek 18:24 But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity…shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.
    Ezek 33:12 …'The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the
    day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live because of his righteousness in the day that he sins.


    Past righteousness isn’t a laurel I can rest on. Christians who are Christ’s true bride must be righteous, at Christ’s return:
    1 Thes 3:13 …Your hearts blameless (sinless – TLB) in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

    Please consider the following short passages of scripture from three books of the Bible:

    Heb 10:26-29 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the
    truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins…(having) trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?


    Jude 5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt (which is a symbol of conversion to Christ), afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

    2 Pe 2:10-20 …Those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of unclean-ness and despise authority…They have forsaken the right way and gone astray…for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever. If, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.


    I'll follow this up with you tomorrow, need to go for now, God bless you
    I don't know who you were addressing, so may I take it as all on the Forum and post my comments. First, the servants of the Lord you subscribe to are well known for their "giveness". Continue in their example. But may I make some observations about a point or two you made based on a verse or verses?

    The Parable of the Ten Virgins is not a parable of salvation. It starts by say it is "like the Kingdom of Heaven". So we must first start with a definition of this Kingdom. From Genesis 1:26-28 on through God's promise to Noah, through the Promises made by God to Abraham, to Israel occupying the Good Land, through the prophecies of Daniel concerning the coming Kingdom, through the Sermon on the Mount, through Christ returning to earth to reign 1,000 years, right up to New Jerusalem, the issue was, and is, THE EARTH. Our Lord's prayer in Matthew 6:10, sums the whole scheme of God in making man. He was to "subdue" and "rule" THE EARTH. Matthew 6:10 reads; "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." Man is made from the earth, to be nourished by the earth for subduing and ruling the earth.

    Thus, the Parable of the Ten Virgins addresses two things that are intimately connected with Christ's return. Revelation 19 shows these two things. (i) Christ is to FEAST a Feast of Joy with His Bride, and (ii) the Bride is also His army for making war with Gentile power and taking the rule of the earth for Himself. The Ten Virgins are THE SAME in eight things, and DIFFERENT in only one.
    1. They are all Virgins. A Virgin in Parable is one who does not mix with idols and is "espoused" to Christ (as you have already pointed out) - that is, Christians
    2. They all have burning Lamps. In Parable, the Lamp of a man is his spirit (Pr.20:27)
    3. They all have oil in their LAMPS - a picture of a human spirit enlivened by the Holy Spirit (as you have pointed out). They must all be Christians.
    4. They all "went forth to meet the Bridegroom". Only Christians seek the Bridegroom. Israel hate and reject Him and so does the world.
    5. They all fell asleep because the Bridegroom delayed His coming. The Parable speaks of those who have died in Christ.
    6. They all are awakened at the same - at the coming of the Bridegroom. They must all be Christ's for those who rise at Christ's coming are His (1st Cor.15:23)
    7. They all anticipated this moment and trimmed their Lamps.
    8. Even the Foolish Virgins are still called "Virgins", and when they return with oil are still called Virgins.

    It is clear form these aspects that there is no difference in the nature, condition, rising and anticipation of ALL TEN. The SINGLE DIFFERENCE is that FIVE had no EXTRA OIL in their VESSELS (not their Lamps). The cause of this is that the Foolish Virgins NEGLECTED TWO THINGS. They are;
    1. Extra oil in the VESSELS was needed
    2. This extra oil HAD TO BE PAID FOR BY THEMSELVES. It was not a free GIFT like the oil that was in their Lamps.

    The Result of this "foolishness" was NOT that their Lamps went out. It was that for the Wedding Feast and the 1,000 year Kingdom, they were not equipped. They are not extinguished. They are told to amend their condition. They had to go "to them that sell". That is, however the Wise Virgins BOUGHT oil in their lifetime before death and before resurrection, that process had to be entered into by the Foolish Virgins AFTER resurrection. This caused a great LOSS. They did not lose their salvation. Their Lamps were still burning, and after some time they returned with oil in their VESSELS after having paid for it. They still called the Bridegroom, "Lord, Lord!" But the answer is "I don't know you!" This reveals the true gravity of the situation.

    The Greek word for "know" is "oida". It means; "to know by perception", or "be aware of". Besides neglecting to buy extra oil for their Vessels, the five Foolish Virgins had not built a relationship with the Bridegroom. They had been busy elsewhere - too busy for our Lord Jesus to "know them by sight" and to "be aware of" them. Let us summarize;
    • The Foolish Virgins were Christians in their lifetime and Christians when they resurrected
    • The Lamps of the Foolish Virgins sputtered but did not go out
    • The Foolish Virgins ended up with the right amount of oil BUT AT THE WRONG TIME
    • The Foolish Virgins could not ENTER the Wedding Feast
    • The Foolish Virgins could not ENTER the Kingdom because the Wedding Feast is "like" the 1,000 year Kingdom
    • The LOSS of the Foolish Virgins was not their oil, or that their Lamps were extinguished, but that they (i) are disgraced, (ii) miss the Wedding Feast of Christ, and (iii) may not partake of the 1,000 year Kingdom ON EARTH when Christ and His "Wise Virgins" will rule. And if the Wedding Feast is "LIKE" the Kingdom, then the Wedding Feast must be on earth and the Joyous Festivities must last 1,000 years.

    Finally, what is meant by "buying oil"? If the Lamp is the human spirit, the "Vessel" is that which encapsulates or carries the Lamp. If we look at the Tabernacle, or the Temple - for man is the Tabernacle of God - we find that the Holy of Holies, where God lives, is the spirit (Jn.3:6). The building that holds the Holy of Holies is the Holy Place. This speaks of the man, or specifically, the SOUL of man. The SOUL of man is made of the mind (the thinking organ), the will (the deciding organ) and the emotions (the feeling organ). And it is here that EXTRA OIL must be deposited. Paul, talking to Christians in Galatians 4:19 says; "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you."

    The Galatian Christians, all born again, were being corrected by Paul because certain teachers had taught that perfection of the born again Christian is achieved by the Law of Moses. Not so! says Paul. It is achieved by the SPIRIT. In Galatians Chapter 5 the human SPIRIT is CONTRASTED to the FLESH. And in the middle is the SOUL. It is the SOUL that thinks, feels and decides, and perfection is when the SOUL is so DISPOSED as to favor the Holy Spirit Who dwells in the human spirit. Perfection is when (i) the SOUL does not pander to the flesh and (ii) produces FRUIT (Gal.5:22). That is, Christ being FORMED in the man is the old DISPOSITION of the soul being kicked out and a the DISPOSITION of the Holy Spirit being FORMED in the soul. So 1st Peter 1:3-10 shows a process that leads up to the "SALVATION OF THE SOUL". And the main ingredient of this is SUFFERING - but suffering as in being PURGED or REFINED.

    But there is another aspect of this. In 2nd Peter 1:3-11 we the same process, the TRANSFORMING of the soul, and verse 11 says why; "TO ENTER THE KINGDOM!" But in this case the TRANSFORMING work of the soul is DONE BY US. WE must ADD the virtues! WE must do a work in cooperation with the Holy Spirit. And finally, all this is USELESS if it is not mixed with (i) the nature of Christ, and with (ii) a RELATIONSHIP with Christ. We have to, in this process, GAIN CHRIST. After all, it is "let Christ be FORMED in You". So 2 Corinthians 3:18 says we have to "behold the glory" of Christ. "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." That is, we must be intimate with His WORKS. We must know about Him, we must know Him personally, we must walk the road He walked, we must suffer the things He suffered, and we must INFUSE Him into our being by eating His Word. The word "glory" means "made apparent". We have to go the same road as our Lord Jesus so that what HE IS and what He wants "is made apparent". This experience of Christ will ensure that He will NEVER SAY "I DO NOT KNOW YOU".

    And what then is the PRICE for the extra oil in the Vessel? It is THREEFOLD:
    1. We must put our flesh on our crosses. That is, when the flesh screams for illegal things, we brutally refuse.
    2. We must "lose" our soul life. The soul has had a lifetime of deciding for the flesh. Now we have to FORCE it to be Christ-like. The old habits must be refused. The old thoughts refused. The illegal feelings like hate and jealousy must be refused. Christ's noble thoughts, feeling and decisions must replace what we did in the past.
    3. We must cooperate with the Holy Spirit in "purging" or "refining". We must be "exercised" by God's discipline and chastisement. We must walk Christ's road of sufferings, and we must put aside our cherished things to make time to KNOW Christ and be KNOWN of Him.

    That ... IS BUYING OIL.

    I have written more than I planned. I hope it is food for thought. God bless.

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    Re: Living Stone Posts

    A lot of good stuff there Walls but I don't see how born again Christians are even in view in chapter 25, anywhere, except that they are the unmentioned already determined bride. The virgins are her bridesmaids. It's also "slumbered and slept", not asleep, so this is not talking about death/resurrection. This is the way scripture describes those not living sober and being vigilant - buy oil. Also, when he appears the bribe is immediately resurrected/changed. There isn't any future question of who is and is not the bride from that moment. In the parable/s of the seed/harvest, in the koh the wheat and tare have to be separated, which is what we have here, wise and foolish being separated, just as he continued to show with sheep and goats, also not born again believers. In the koG 'parallel' parable there is no separating of wheat and tare because there are no tare (children of the wicked one) in the koG. The Lord knows who are his. This is all about what is happening with remaining mortal survivors as Christ sets up his earthly reign. Those that bought oil would be those that did not know that the works they were doing was the same as doing unto Jesus. Clearly not born again believers that do know this.

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    Re: Living Stone Posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    A lot of good stuff there Walls but I don't see how born again Christians are even in view in chapter 25, anywhere, except that they are the unmentioned already determined bride. The virgins are her bridesmaids. It's also "slumbered and slept", not asleep, so this is not talking about death/resurrection. This is the way scripture describes those not living sober and being vigilant - buy oil. Also, when he appears the bribe is immediately resurrected/changed. There isn't any future question of who is and is not the bride from that moment. In the parable/s of the seed/harvest, in the koh the wheat and tare have to be separated, which is what we have here, wise and foolish being separated, just as he continued to show with sheep and goats, also not born again believers. In the koG 'parallel' parable there is no separating of wheat and tare because there are no tare (children of the wicked one) in the koG. The Lord knows who are his. This is all about what is happening with remaining mortal survivors as Christ sets up his earthly reign. Those that bought oil would be those that did not know that the works they were doing was the same as doing unto Jesus. Clearly not born again believers that do know this.
    Thank you for your reply. I am aware that each of us sees certain things in a Parable, that other's might not. I approached the parable this time to point out to Living Stone, who wrote, Quote; "The five foolish Christians were without the Holy Spirit, not sealed, and missed Christ’s second coming.", that the circumstances showed the Virgins ALL THE SAME except in one point. And ALL were awakened together and ALL trimmed their Lamps in anticipation of the arrival of the bride groom. I appreciate your view, even if I cannot agree with it. I would be interested in your view of Living Stone's quote above. To the rest, I will let my posting stand as it is.

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    Re: Living Stone Posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Thank you for your reply. I am aware that each of us sees certain things in a Parable, that other's might not. I approached the parable this time to point out to Living Stone, who wrote, Quote; "The five foolish Christians were without the Holy Spirit, not sealed, and missed Christ’s second coming.", that the circumstances showed the Virgins ALL THE SAME except in one point. And ALL were awakened together and ALL trimmed their Lamps in anticipation of the arrival of the bride groom. I appreciate your view, even if I cannot agree with it. I would be interested in your view of Living Stone's quote above. To the rest, I will let my posting stand as it is.
    Thanks Walls, I understand it's a 'parable issue'. Living Stone's said, "The ten virgins are born again Christians" but many 'had the Spirit' before the death, burial, and resurrection and they were not born again. David and the twelve disciples are two quick obvious examples. So if the oil is the Spirit and He is with some and not others, it's not indicative of who is and is not born again. No one alive on earth misses the second coming, regardless of their spirituality. The koh has wheat and tares, the koG does not have tares, so this can't be a comparison of Christians. Wheat are children of the koh and tares are children of the wicked one. Like sheep, children of the koh aren't necessarily born again.

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    Re: Living Stone Posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Living Stone View Post
    [SIZE=4]A brief response isn't sufficient, but I'll start here. Consider these truths,

    ....

    Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit …if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance… These are Christians that departed from the faith, so its clear if we do so we forfeit our salvation.

    ....

    I'll follow this up with you tomorrow, need to go for now, God bless you
    Last time, I addressed your comments on the Ten Virgins. Now I turn to the above conclusion taken from Hebrews 6.

    If the verse is taken outside of its context it would seem to mean what you say. But when take inside its context a vastly different meaning is discovered. The Context for Hebrews 6:4-6 actually starts way back in Hebrews 4:14-16, "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, .... ." And the context ends in Hebrews 6:20, "Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec." And according to Hebrews 5:1 the job of the High Priest is, "For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins." Thereafter, Christ, OUR High Priest, is contrasted to Aaron, high priest of Israel. Why did the author of Hebrews come to this. To answer this, must take the context of the whole Book.

    The Book of Hebrews is written to ex-Jews who had believed in, and embraced, Christ. But in a short time they tended to return to Moses and the Law. Why? The answer is in Chapter 10. In Hebrews 10:32-35, which reads ...

    32 "But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
    33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
    34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
    35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward."


    ... we find the source of the problem. These ex-Jews who had converted to Christ suffered (i) "afflictions", and (ii) "the spoiling of their goods". The Law of Moses was for Israel ONLY. It required obedience to about 625 Laws, and in return God would bless and protect both Israel generally, and the individual Israelite specifically. He would be safe from his enemies, have health, have wealth, have long life, have a fruitful wife and have large harvests. Now these Hebrews had been obedient to the gospel and things did a dramatic reversal. The Church is not like Israel. It is NOT guaranteed protection. It is a small flock - so small that the "wolves" surround it (Matt.10:16). It is subject to persecution, and may not retaliate. It is expected to give wealth away - not amass it. The Believer, unlike the Israelite, will have no claim to justice in this age and is required to deny himself, even unto death. The Believer is in TRAINING in this age to be co-kings with Christ in the next age. He is to be purged, and refined, and pruned. His "day" in not now, but the Millennial Kingdom when our Lord Jesus returns and sets up His Kingdom on earth.

    The ex-Jew, after a time of dreariness, was saying; "you know ... it was better under Moses. We had health, wealth, justice and protection from our enemies from God. LET US RETURN TO MOSES!" The Book of Hebrews is written to combat this tendency. It is written to show the excellency of Christ over Moses, the angels, Aaron, and to show the great REWARD of the coming Kingdom of Heaven as opposed to the TEMPORAL REWARDS of Israel. So, starting in Chapter 4, the author points to the excellency of Christ's Priestly duty over Aaron. And among other things (which would make this posting too long) Aaron's duty was to offer sacrifice after sacrifice for the Israelite's sin and sins. On Monday Joe of Judah would slyly take some of his neighbor's sheep. On Tuesday his neighbor catches him because he marked his sheep in a secret place. Joe must restore the sheep PLUS 20%, AND he must sacrifice one of his lambs for an offering.

    On Wednesday Joe is overcome by his flesh and makes love to his wife five days after her period. He is thus unclean. For this he must sacrifice. On Friday Joe tells a lie, is caught in it, and must sacrifice for his "trespass". And Saturday happens to be the Passover and Joe must "kill and eat" the Passover Lamb. The Israelite was intimately bound to his priest. He had many offerings for his many transgressions against the Law. And in this light we come to Hebrews Chapter 5 where the author of Hebrews castigates the ex-Jews for not maturing in their Christian walk, and presents Christ - High Priest that death can never touch, and who has replaced Aaron. He ends the Chapter by saying that these ex-Jews, with their background, should have matured quicker. But that they had not even understood the founding Principles of their new FAITH - Christianity.

    Going into Chapter 6, he says that it was really time to leave those six foundational aspects of the Christian FAITH, and move on to maturity. (I pause to comment that most Christians today are still trying to work these things out. So nothing has changed.) Hebrews 6:1-6 then lays down the folly of returning to Moses and Aaron.
    Verse 1 calls the ex-Jew to (i) "... go on unto perfection", and (ii) not to lay the foundations of Christianity over and over again
    Verse 2 tells what these founding principles are
    Verse 3 Predicts that if God is with them they will move on to maturity
    Verse 4 to 6 then shows the folly of going back to the other high priest. "For it is impossible... ." What is IMPOSSIBLE? TO CRUCIFY CHRIST OVER AND OVER AGAIN LIKE AARON DID WITH THE SACRIFICES! Christ has died ONCE FOR ALL (Heb.10:10). "Those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away," CANNOT GO AND CRUCIFY CHRIST AGAIN". The "CANNOT" is not that they cannot repent and come to maturity, but that it is a physical and spiritual IMPOSSIBILITY to put Christ back on the cross. (i) First of all, no one has the power to do it, and (ii) the Father, Who has approved Christ's death as a once-for-all sacrifice, will not allow it!

    "If they fall away". What does this mean? It can mean (i) sinning continuously and willingly with no regard to the consequences, or (ii) GOING BACK TO MOSES. If an ex-Jew has been enlightened, believed in Jesus and called on His Name, he has moved from the "sand of the sea-shore" to the "stars of heaven". His birth to Jacob is no longer counted because he has been born of the Holy Spirit. "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (2nd Cor.5:17). But if you are not sure, let us reverse the argument. Can a man REPENT at any time? What of the Prodigal Son? Israel sinned and sinned and sinned and had already broken the whole Law at Horeb when they built the Golden Calf. But how many times in the next 900 years did Jehovah promise to turn their plight IF THEY REPENTED! Hebrews 6:6 does NOT read: "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they have lost their salvation, and put him to an open shame." NO! The context is the duties of the High Priest under Moses in sacrificing and sacrificing and sacrificing IN CONTRAST to the One-Off, all inclusive, once-for-all Sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

    Finally, the following verses confirm it. Hebrews 6:7-8 reads;

    7 "For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
    8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."


    The plight of the ex-Jews in returning to Moses is that although they are on the earth, they have received HEAVENLY BLESSING. And what then should the rain do? BRING FRUIT MEET for the Husbandman. Heavenly birth (Jn.3:3-5), heavenly calling (Heb.3:1) with heavenly RAIN should bring forth heavenly fruit. And fruit TAKES TIME. Israel received their fruit annually, but the Christian's fruit is only shown at the Judgement Seat. The Israelite is rewarded immediately, but death ends all blessing. The Christian receives his reward AFTER resurrection. It will always remain and always be enjoyed. But if he brings forth cursed fruit* (for thorns and briers are the result of the curse of Eden), then he is NIGH to cursing. Even if the ex-Jew returns to Moses, he does not lose his salvation. But he is NEAR to being cursed. Why NEAR? Because the efficacy of Christ has been accepted by the Father. He cannot make the wayward believer pay for what Christ has already paid for. The wayward Christian cannot be UNBORN once he has been born of the Holy Spirit. The wayward Christian's salvation from the Lake of fire is secure BECAUSE it was established by Jesus, not him. But if the Christian ups and returns to Moses, the effets of the LAW he embraces will NEARLY curse him.

    And what means "whose end is to be burned"? It refers to the Second Death. The heathen who transgress against God are, at resurrection, cast in to the Lake of Fire. It is FOR EVER. But is their any evidence of a Christian losing their salvation and going to the Lake of Fire? NO! BUT ... in Revelation 2:11 the Lord Jesus is addressing a CHURCH - that is, CHRISTIANS. And what is the REWARD for overcoming the fallen situation IN THE CHURCH? "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." What is implied? That any Christian who succumbs and does not overcome the fallen situation in the Churches will BE HURT of the Second Death. For the Christian, FIRE is always to chastise or purge. For the heathen it is "everlasting destruction". For the duration of the Millennium the slothful christian, or the Christian who returned to Moses, SUFFERS LOSS, and the fire of chastisement is to REFORM him.

    I propose that the context of Hebrews 6:1-8 is the sacrifices of the high priest under Moses VERSUS the SINGLE sacrifice of our New High Priest - Jesus. The folly of returning to Moses SUPPOSES that the daily sacrifices must be implemented. But Christ has been accepted, so the sacrifices WILL HAVE TO BE APPLIED TO HIM. But this is IMPOSSIBLE as Jehovah has decreed it ONCE-FOR-ALL and ALL-INCLUSIVE.


    * The Law, made for life and blessing, because of the fallen flesh of man, can only curse (Gal.3:10). It is spectacularly seen in God's command to Israel in Deuteronomy 11 to mount Mount Gerizim and call out the blessings of the Law from there, and mount Mount Ebal on the other side of the Valley and call out the curses of the Law. But when Moses gave the final instructions in Deuteronomy 27:12-26 for this event, ONLY THE CURSES WERE READ! This is to show that man, in his flesh, with Law on Tablets of Stone outside of the man, CANNOT keep the Law and only reaps CURSES!

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    Re: Living Stone Posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Thanks Walls, I understand it's a 'parable issue'. Living Stone's said, "The ten virgins are born again Christians" but many 'had the Spirit' before the death, burial, and resurrection and they were not born again. David and the twelve disciples are two quick obvious examples. So if the oil is the Spirit and He is with some and not others, it's not indicative of who is and is not born again. No one alive on earth misses the second coming, regardless of their spirituality. The koh has wheat and tares, the koG does not have tares, so this can't be a comparison of Christians. Wheat are children of the koh and tares are children of the wicked one. Like sheep, children of the koh aren't necessarily born again.
    To answer what I made bold, that is just it. These Virgins were not alive. They had fallen asleep as the millions of Christians have sin the early martyrs. They ARISE when the bridegroom comes! The Parables are limited. They are a picture to illuminate a specific aspect. In the Wheat and the Tares, the development of the Kingdom in this age is illustrated. But the Ten Virgins is to show the DESTINY of those whose Lamps are burning. And, a small but important point is that the parable of the Wheat and the Tares shows the Tares JUDGED FIRST. This is crucial for in the scheme of things 1st Peter 4:17 says; "... that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" Makes one think hey brother?

    Of course we might disagree on certain things, but I brought EIGHT proofs that the Virgins were all the same. Even if only TWO are correct, it is established.

    Go well brother. I'm sure you will find some bones to chew in my latest posting on Hebrews 6 above.

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    Re: Living Stone Posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    To answer what I made bold, that is just it. These Virgins were not alive. They had fallen asleep
    As I said above, this is incorrect. They slumbered and slept. They were not dead.


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The Parables are limited. They are a picture to illuminate a specific aspect. In the Wheat and the Tares, the development of the Kingdom in this age is illustrated. But the Ten Virgins is to show the DESTINY of those whose Lamps are burning.
    This says nothing about who they are and since they are not the dead resurrected.......


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    And, a small but important point is that the parable of the Wheat and the Tares shows the Tares JUDGED FIRST. This is crucial for in the scheme of things 1st Peter 4:17 says; "... that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" Makes one think hey brother?
    No, because Jesus said "now is the judgment of this world....." so it has come, as Peter actually said "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God" or as other trans say "For it is time for judgment to begin, starting with the house of God.". He's not talking about what is taking place in Mat 25. It is not judgment seat of Christ or the GWT judgment. Mat 25 is just what is taking place when Jesus returns to set up his earthly reign and only concerns those alive on earth from the nations -v32 And before him shall be gathered all nations:


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Of course we might disagree on certain things, but I brought EIGHT proofs that the Virgins were all the same.
    I did not disagree.


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Go well brother.
    You as well!

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    Re: Living Stone Posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I'm sure you will find some bones to chew in my latest posting on Hebrews 6 above.
    Sure, but it's a convoluted mess I don't have time to write a book to correct.

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    Re: Living Stone Posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Sure, but it's a convoluted mess I don't have time to write a book to correct.
    I am constrained to believe you. I have one commentary on the Virgins of 46 pages with a supplement of another 48 pages = 94 pages. Well have you said it should take a book. Or maybe you address Hebrews 6:1-8. In this case I will summarize and you could (voluntarily) discuss one of the points.
    1. The Book of Hebrews addresses ex-Jews who embrace Christ but when persecution and poverty arise, they contemplate returning to the Law of Moses
    2. The Book of Hebrews shows the superiority of Christ and His work to Moses, angels, Aaron and the Sacrifices
    3. The context of Chapter 6 starts in Chapter 4 with Christ a High Priest
    4. The context of Chapter 6 end with the last verse of Chapter 6 with Christ as a High Priest
    5. The High Priest of Israel, under the Law of Moses, sacrificed animals daily and even hourly
    6. The High Priest of the Church, Jesus, only made one single all-inclusive sacrifice
    7. For those who have embraced and believed in Jesus there is no turning back to the Law of Moses because it requires MULTIPLE sacrifices. But Christ cannot be crucified over and over. Therefore there is NO REPETITIVE SACRIFICE that can restore a Christian seeing as Christ dies only once.
    8. A Believer who turns back to Moses is like the earth receiving the rain and bringing forth briars and thistles - the results of a curse
    9. A Believer who turns back to the Law of Moses does not lose his/her salvation as was proposed. But he /she "can be hurt of the Second Death" - be burned when the other faithful Christians are enjoying heavenly blessings in the Millennium.

    There. Big chunks, but easy to chew. I've numbered them to avoid a "convoluted mess" and make a simple objection (with scriptures) easy.

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