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Thread: Living Stone Posts

  1. #16
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    Re: Living Stone Posts

    I shudder when people try to discuss the bible and apparently they have not studied the bible. I speak specifically of attempts to associate the parable of the ten virgins with salvation.

    Ephesians 3:4-6 King James Version (KJV)
    4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
    5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
    6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

    Jesus was a Jew speaking to Jews about Jewish topics. He knew nothing of the Christian church.

    Some folks are claiming figures of speech to explain interpretations. You need to stop interpreting. God's word rightly divided is clear and simple. If you want to discuss figures of speech you need to learn a few figures of speech. There are over 900 kinds in the bible, with dozens of variations in some kinds. Here is a link to almost the only book on the subject, and you can get a hard copy at any bible book store.
    https://openlibrary.org/search?q=e.+...ures+of+speech
    https://smile.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb...ures+of+speech

  2. #17
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    Re: Living Stone Posts

    That's pretty correct. Matthew 25 is entrance to the koh not the koG. Jesus said it is hard for a rich man to enter the Messianic reign based on works and impossible for him to enter the koG based on works- saved.

    Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    .............
    23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

  3. #18
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    Re: Living Stone Posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I am constrained to believe you. I have one commentary on the Virgins of 46 pages with a supplement of another 48 pages = 94 pages. Well have you said it should take a book. Or maybe you address Hebrews 6:1-8. In this case I will summarize and you could (voluntarily) discuss one of the points.
    1. The Book of Hebrews addresses ex-Jews who embrace Christ but when persecution and poverty arise, they contemplate returning to the Law of Moses
    2. The Book of Hebrews shows the superiority of Christ and His work to Moses, angels, Aaron and the Sacrifices
    3. The context of Chapter 6 starts in Chapter 4 with Christ a High Priest
    4. The context of Chapter 6 end with the last verse of Chapter 6 with Christ as a High Priest
    5. The High Priest of Israel, under the Law of Moses, sacrificed animals daily and even hourly
    6. The High Priest of the Church, Jesus, only made one single all-inclusive sacrifice
    7. For those who have embraced and believed in Jesus there is no turning back to the Law of Moses because it requires MULTIPLE sacrifices. But Christ cannot be crucified over and over. Therefore there is NO REPETITIVE SACRIFICE that can restore a Christian seeing as Christ dies only once.
    8. A Believer who turns back to Moses is like the earth receiving the rain and bringing forth briars and thistles - the results of a curse
    9. A Believer who turns back to the Law of Moses does not lose his/her salvation as was proposed. But he /she "can be hurt of the Second Death" - be burned when the other faithful Christians are enjoying heavenly blessings in the Millennium.

    There. Big chunks, but easy to chew. I've numbered them to avoid a "convoluted mess" and make a simple objection (with scriptures) easy.
    Thanks for condensing that. The few things I would question do not change your original point that Hebrews 6:1-8 does not propose a loss of salvation. I agree.

  4. #19
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    Re: Living Stone Posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Prospector View Post
    I shudder when people try to discuss the bible and apparently they have not studied the bible. I speak specifically of attempts to associate the parable of the ten virgins with salvation.

    Ephesians 3:4-6 King James Version (KJV)
    4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
    5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
    6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

    Jesus was a Jew speaking to Jews about Jewish topics. He knew nothing of the Christian church.

    Some folks are claiming figures of speech to explain interpretations. You need to stop interpreting. God's word rightly divided is clear and simple. If you want to discuss figures of speech you need to learn a few figures of speech. There are over 900 kinds in the bible, with dozens of variations in some kinds. Here is a link to almost the only book on the subject, and you can get a hard copy at any bible book store.
    https://openlibrary.org/search?q=e.+...ures+of+speech
    https://smile.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb...ures+of+speech
    I answer the red bold

    This is quite a statement in view of our Lord's statements in Matthew 16:18 and 18:17, 20 which read severally;

    18 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
    17 "And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."
    20 "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

    The Parable of the Ten Virgins was told just two days before His death (Matt.26:1-2). The statements concerning the Church were before that. That is, our Lord Jesus knew about the Church when He related the Parable of the Ten Virgins.

    Next,
    • our Lord Jesus was NOT speaking to Jews. He was speaking to His disciples (Matt.24:3-4). The new Testament CONTRAST Jews with the disciples of Jesus
    • nowhere are the Jews of Christ's day called Virgins
    • the Church is called Virgins (2nd Cor.11:2)
    • those "who follow the Lamb" are called Virgins" Rev.14:4). The Jews rejected our Lord Jesus and continued to follow Moses
    • Parables are given for the Church (Matt.13:10-11, 16). It was thus no "Jewish matter"
    • Interpretation is required of a Parable (Matt.13:18)
    • Interpretation is required of prophecy (26 times in Daniel alone). It must just NOT be private interpretation (2nd Pet.1:20).
    • In Ephesians 3:5 above the age had changed. The age of Law ended with John Baptist (Matt.11:13; Lk.16:16)
    • In Ephesians 3:5 above the revelation of the church is given to the Apostles. Our Lord Jesus is, "... the Apostle and High Priest of our profession" (Heb.3:1)

    I propose that Matthew 24:32 until Matthew 25:30 concerns the Church. It is about the Lord's servants, Virgins and Guests to the Wedding Feast. Israel
    • refused to come to the Wedding Feast (Matt.22:2-7)
    • refuse to serve Christ. They rather plotted to murder Him
    • are never called Virgins. Although Judah's "whoring" stopped after the Babylonian captivity, they are never called Virgins

    Thus, the Parable of the Virgins is no "Jewish Matter"

  5. #20
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    Re: Living Stone Posts

    Walls, the virgins of Rev 14:4 are 12,000 each of the 12 tribes of Israel. Also, Israel is repeatedly called "virgin". The virgins of Matthew 25 are the Bride's bridesmaids - Psalm 45:14. Lastly, virgin is just a descriptive word. The way you use "Jew" is not the way others do. You use it exclusively in the negative, where others use it in place of Israel which is not negative.

  6. #21
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    Re: Living Stone Posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I answer the red bold

    This is quite a statement in view of our Lord's statements in Matthew 16:18 and 18:17, 20 which read severally;

    18 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
    17 "And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."
    20 "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

    The Parable of the Ten Virgins was told just two days before His death (Matt.26:1-2). The statements concerning the Church were before that. That is, our Lord Jesus knew about the Church when He related the Parable of the Ten Virgins.

    Next,
    • our Lord Jesus was NOT speaking to Jews. He was speaking to His disciples (Matt.24:3-4). The new Testament CONTRAST Jews with the disciples of Jesus
    • nowhere are the Jews of Christ's day called Virgins
    • the Church is called Virgins (2nd Cor.11:2)
    • those "who follow the Lamb" are called Virgins" Rev.14:4). The Jews rejected our Lord Jesus and continued to follow Moses
    • Parables are given for the Church (Matt.13:10-11, 16). It was thus no "Jewish matter"
    • Interpretation is required of a Parable (Matt.13:18)
    • Interpretation is required of prophecy (26 times in Daniel alone). It must just NOT be private interpretation (2nd Pet.1:20).
    • In Ephesians 3:5 above the age had changed. The age of Law ended with John Baptist (Matt.11:13; Lk.16:16)
    • In Ephesians 3:5 above the revelation of the church is given to the Apostles. Our Lord Jesus is, "... the Apostle and High Priest of our profession" (Heb.3:1)

    I propose that Matthew 24:32 until Matthew 25:30 concerns the Church. It is about the Lord's servants, Virgins and Guests to the Wedding Feast. Israel
    • refused to come to the Wedding Feast (Matt.22:2-7)
    • refuse to serve Christ. They rather plotted to murder Him
    • are never called Virgins. Although Judah's "whoring" stopped after the Babylonian captivity, they are never called Virgins

    Thus, the Parable of the Virgins is no "Jewish Matter"
    Ok, you've been told. popcorn.gif

  7. #22
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    Re: Living Stone Posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Walls, the virgins of Rev 14:4 are 12,000 each of the 12 tribes of Israel. Also, Israel is repeatedly called "virgin". The virgins of Matthew 25 are the Bride's bridesmaids - Psalm 45:14. Lastly, virgin is just a descriptive word. The way you use "Jew" is not the way others do. You use it exclusively in the negative, where others use it in place of Israel which is not negative.
    1. No. The 144,000 of Revelation 14 are NOT FROM the 12 Tribes of Israel. They are "redeemed from among men".
    2. You gave no scriptures for Israel being called Virgins "repeatedly"
    3. The Virgins of Matthew 25 are NOT reported to be bridesmaids. They go out to meet the GROOM not the bride
    4. I used "Jew" because brother Prospector used it. If he had said it was an Israelite matter, I would have used "Israelite".
    5. But we do agree that "Virgin" is a descriptive word. Although its use in Revelation 14:4 is Feminine Noun, the verse says that it DESCRIBES, "... they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

    Go well brother.

  8. #23
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    Re: Living Stone Posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Prospector View Post
    Ok, you've been told. popcorn.gif
    I appreciate your warning, and take it seriously.

    God bless.

  9. #24
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    Re: Living Stone Posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    1. No. The 144,000 of Revelation 14 are NOT FROM the 12 Tribes of Israel. They are "redeemed from among men".
    2. You gave no scriptures for Israel being called Virgins "repeatedly"
    3. The Virgins of Matthew 25 are NOT reported to be bridesmaids. They go out to meet the GROOM not the bride
    4. I used "Jew" because brother Prospector used it. If he had said it was an Israelite matter, I would have used "Israelite".
    5. But we do agree that "Virgin" is a descriptive word. Although its use in Revelation 14:4 is Feminine Noun, the verse says that it DESCRIBES, "... they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

    Go well brother.
    1. So there are two separate 144,000? One in chapter 7, the other chapter 14?
    2. Only takes a few seconds to find many.
    3. Well they're not the bride. They meet the groom with the bride.
    4. Prospector wasn't using Jew in the negative as you are.
    5. ....and has nothing to do with Matthew 25.

  10. #25
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    Re: Living Stone Posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    1. So there are two separate 144,000? One in chapter 7, the other chapter 14?
    2. Only takes a few seconds to find many.
    3. Well they're not the bride. They meet the groom with the bride.
    4. Prospector wasn't using Jew in the negative as you are.
    5. ....and has nothing to do with Matthew 25.
    The number 144,000 is a compound number for God's people. It is 12 X 12 x 1000. 12 Tribes, 12 Apostles, 12 Gates of New Jerusalem, 12 Foundations of the Walls of New Jerusalem. The "thousand" on the one hand puts a limit on the number 12, but on the other hand indicates a big number. This is because BOTH are a remnant - not the full size, but at the same time they REPRESENT ALL Israelites and ALL Christians.
    1. The 144,000 of Chapter 7 are Israelites and are are the Remnant promised in Romans 11, and which form those who set the prerequisite for Deuteronomy 30:1-5. For God to restore Israel He set forth the requirement that they would turn back to what Moses was expounding on "THAT DAY" - the Law. They are "sealed" to protect them from the mechanisms of the Great Tribulation because there is no rapture for Israel.
    2. The 144,000 of Chapter 14 are the "Firstfruits" of the Christians, the Overcomers. They are "redeemed from among men" and they are "redeemed from the earth" so as to be missing from the earth when the Great Tribulation sets in.

    The differences between the two 144,000 are marked. Here are a few;
    • Those of Chapter 7 FROM Israel - those of Chapter 14 are FROM "among men"
    • Those of Chapter 7 are sealed to protect them - Those of Chapter 14 have their Father's name in their foreheads
    • Those of Chapter 7 are on earth which is about to be "hurt" - Those of 14 are in heaven where the throne, the 24 Elders and the 4 Creatures are (see Chapter 4)
    • Those of Chapter 7 are on earth - Those of 14 are "redeemed FROM the earth
    • Those of Chapter 7, being Israelites, follow Moses - Those of 14 "follow the Lamb"
    • Those of Chapter 7, being Israelites, reject Christ - Those of 14 are "without fault"

    These two groups could not be more different. The one is that Company of Israelites who turn back to the Law so that God may restore Israel (Deut.30:1-5), and are seen again in Chapter 12 "keeping the commandments of God". The other is the Firstfruits of those who have God as their Father. To have God as your Father, one must be born to Him (Jn.1:12-13). To have God's name in them is a mark of an Overcomer from the Church (Rev.3:12).

  11. #26
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    Re: Living Stone Posts

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The number 144,000 is a compound number for God's people. It is 12 X 12 x 1000. 12 Tribes, 12 Apostles, 12 Gates of New Jerusalem, 12 Foundations of the Walls of New Jerusalem. The "thousand" on the one hand puts a limit on the number 12, but on the other hand indicates a big number. This is because BOTH are a remnant - not the full size, but at the same time they REPRESENT ALL Israelites and ALL Christians.
    1. The 144,000 of Chapter 7 are Israelites and are are the Remnant promised in Romans 11, and which form those who set the prerequisite for Deuteronomy 30:1-5. For God to restore Israel He set forth the requirement that they would turn back to what Moses was expounding on "THAT DAY" - the Law. They are "sealed" to protect them from the mechanisms of the Great Tribulation because there is no rapture for Israel.
    2. The 144,000 of Chapter 14 are the "Firstfruits" of the Christians, the Overcomers. They are "redeemed from among men" and they are "redeemed from the earth" so as to be missing from the earth when the Great Tribulation sets in.

    The differences between the two 144,000 are marked. Here are a few;
    • Those of Chapter 7 FROM Israel - those of Chapter 14 are FROM "among men"
    • Those of Chapter 7 are sealed to protect them - Those of Chapter 14 have their Father's name in their foreheads
    • Those of Chapter 7 are on earth which is about to be "hurt" - Those of 14 are in heaven where the throne, the 24 Elders and the 4 Creatures are (see Chapter 4)
    • Those of Chapter 7 are on earth - Those of 14 are "redeemed FROM the earth
    • Those of Chapter 7, being Israelites, follow Moses - Those of 14 "follow the Lamb"
    • Those of Chapter 7, being Israelites, reject Christ - Those of 14 are "without fault"

    These two groups could not be more different. The one is that Company of Israelites who turn back to the Law so that God may restore Israel (Deut.30:1-5), and are seen again in Chapter 12 "keeping the commandments of God". The other is the Firstfruits of those who have God as their Father. To have God as your Father, one must be born to Him (Jn.1:12-13). To have God's name in them is a mark of an Overcomer from the Church (Rev.3:12).
    There's only one group of 144,000. It says redeemed from among men. They are Israeli's redeemed among men. The vision from ch7 is of what likely had been completed, not something that was to happen in the future, because these are the first fruits, Israeli's from the first church. It doesn't say they followed Moses or that they rejected Christ, that's your theology. No one that rejects Christ is delivered. You do not have to be born to the Father to be the Fathers. Those who are the Fathers are those that hear AND learn from him - John 6. All are taught, not all learn. This was the case in John 6 and has always been the case. Those that do the will of the Father are Jesus' mother and brother. Keeping the commandments doesn't mean Israel. We fulfill the righteousness in the law as Christians and Gentiles show the law written on their heart - Romans 2, and death reigned from Adam to Moses because of sin, which requires law for there to be sin. In in most places in the NT, law/commandment doesn't mean Moses -in the negative.

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