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Thread: Who or what is or will be the Great H

  1. #121
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    I am not saying there is nothing wrong with the RCC. As your link points out, it is the papacy they are pointing to...not the people within the church. So the foundations to believe in Jesus is there. I see that church as being maybe rebuked by Jesus as in the 7 churches but there are many churches that would apply to. There were false apostles and Jezebels in the church even then.

    The point is do we need to look worldly...as God so loved the world...and whosoever believes. Therefore mankind would apply as belonging to God. If that is the case then the world (mankind) would represent the church and it would be false religion that would be a harlot. Does that make sense?
    People are sheep--dumb sheep! I would include myself, at times, in that characterization. A good Christian leader in most denominations can rise up and lead his local church to true spirituality. You're right--the foundations are there, in the creeds and in the denominations. It just requires good leadership to take that truth and make it real as a model and in the preaching. God's sheep will follow when they "hear His voice!"

  2. #122
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Jude View Post
    https://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-bible-text/Re-17.html

    II Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

    Here are the witnesses..

    http://www.biblebelievers.com/foxes/findex.htm

    http://homecomers.org/mirror/index-old.htm
    Rejected. That's not a Scriptural exegesis, that's propaganda.

    I ask again for a sound Scriptural exegesis.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  3. #123
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Rev 17:18
    Which nation or "great city" reigns over the kings of the earth?
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

  4. #124
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Jude View Post
    https://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-bible-text/Re-17.html

    II Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

    Here are the witnesses..

    http://www.biblebelievers.com/foxes/findex.htm

    http://homecomers.org/mirror/index-old.htm
    "In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established" was for judicial purposes/establishing an occurrence, not establishing theological points of view. We have two witnesses on this site trying to tell us the NC isn't for the Church. Is that true just because two individuals say it is? Of course not.

  5. #125
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Saved7 View Post
    Rev 17:18
    Which nation or "great city" reigns over the kings of the earth?
    You would have to define reigneth in the original language. I am not sure how to even define it. I already pointed out how a religion could rule...with laws. So if you have an idea please share it. As I don't see any nation ruling over other nations. I see several nations that are more powerful than other nations. If more powerful means to reign then there are several countries that are more powerful. If by that we are talking countries with nuclear power...then there are 8 or 9 countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saved7 View Post
    Rev 17:18
    Which nation or "great city" reigns over the kings of the earth?
    You would have to define reigneth in the original language. I am not sure how to even define it. I already pointed out how a religion could rule...with laws. So if you have an idea please share it. As I don't see any nation ruling over other nations. I see several nations that are more powerful than other nations. If more powerful means to reign then there are several countries that are more powerful. If by that we are talking countries with nuclear power...then there are 8 or 9 countries.

  6. #126
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Jude View Post
    Are all of these men wrong?

    http://www.remnantofgod.org/4fathers.htm
    In their time, I am sure they thought and believed that the RCC was the GH. But why just say "this is what other men in the past have believed"? Why not show from scripture and history how the RCC lines up with the GH?

    I have no doubt, nor do any others in this thread, the the RCC have been against Christ at times in their history. Does that mean they have always been anti-Christ? Is it possible the spirit behind the GH operated in her for a while? Sure. Does that mean she is THE GH?

    Again, I would like to see a verse by verse exegesis of your conclusion. You can refer back to history in this too. I am not convinced the RCC fits all the scriptures.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  7. #127
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Saved7 View Post
    Rev 17:18
    Which nation or "great city" reigns over the kings of the earth?
    Right now New York/USA does. Is it possible that NY/USA are the economic Babylon?
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  8. #128
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    Cool Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Right now New York/USA does. Is it possible that NY/USA are the economic Babylon?
    Em, No!
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  9. #129
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Right now New York/USA does. Is it possible that NY/USA are the economic Babylon?
    Well New York is home base of the UN.

    Does the UN have anything to do with trade?

    Does New York have anything to do with trade and or economics.

    New York has some of the largest sea ports in the world. And don't forget Wall Street. The New York stock exchange.

    What would happen to world economics if the UN went up in smoke (well perhaps more of a flash) and New York with it?
    "He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
    C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

    "Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
    "Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

    "But our Hope endures the worst of conditions"
    "It's more than our optimism, Let the earth quake"
    "Our Hope is unchanged"
    "Our Hope Endures" Natalie Grant

  10. #130
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    Aviyah had said this which we need to take into account:
    John's immediate audience would have had no application of Revelation, nor would there be means to discern it for centuries.
    John’s audience didn’t need to know the details just the overall jist of what was going to happen. They should have been able to get a very good general idea of what was supposed to happen even if they didn’t know exactly how it would come about or when.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    … I mean the call to come out of her was given. I don't think that was referring to just a city and doesn't fit mankind.
    Actually, it does fit mankind and this isn’t the first time God has given the same call to His people.

    2 Cor. 6:14-18 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN;
    And I will welcome you. And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me," Says the Lord Almighty.

    There has been no change to this call from the beginning. God has always expected His people to be separated from the ways of the world. To stop being like and living according to the values and morals of those who reject Him.

    This call from God in Rev is no different. It’s a call for His people to stop compromising. To stop trying to fit in with the world. To stop tying to get the worlds approval. To stop adjusting righteousness to what the current social norms are.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    You make this sound like the UN which is headquartered in NY.
    As far as peoples, nations and tongues... you can take just the mid eastern countries and fit that bill as they all have different languages.
    But not as wide spread as what is being described in Rev regarding the GH.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    You are reading more into scriptures than what is being said. The word “world” is only used once in ch 17 referring to the book of life. And only once is the word “all” used. So basically kings could represent just 2 or more...same with the word nations. I don't read world into those things that you do.
    No, I’m not reading into the scriptures. The application and use of the number seven and the validity of the meaning of water is clearly established in scripture.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

    Reigneth means to rule...doesn't Sheria Law rule over certain kings of earth? Isn't this how a religion would reign? I mean these laws are in the US even...certain states have banned them.
    It’s not “certain kings” … It’s “the kings” of the earth. The phrase “The kings” is far more inclusive than the limited number who subscribe to Sharia law.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    I wouldn't rule out religion.
    No religion past or present can be accountable for and I quote … “all those slain on the earth.” Clearly those religions can account for some but no where near all of them. Not all wars are religious ones. There are many who have been slain due to simple crime with no indication of religion being involved.

    The only common denominator in all those who have been slain on earth is mankind (within context). We’re not taking about those slain be wild beasts, eat by sharks, etc.
    "He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
    C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

    "Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
    "Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

    "But our Hope endures the worst of conditions"
    "It's more than our optimism, Let the earth quake"
    "Our Hope is unchanged"
    "Our Hope Endures" Natalie Grant

  11. #131
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Saved7 View Post
    Rev 17:18
    Which nation or "great city" reigns over the kings of the earth?
    John was identifying the city that *at that time* reigned over the kings of the earth. That obviously was Rome.

    At the same time it seems clear that Rome continues to exist in the endtimes scenario. She is the Great Harlot who continues to mislead the world, and she rides on the back of the Antichristian Empire, the "Beast." Oddly, the Antichrist will himself destroy her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saved7 View Post
    Rev 17:18
    Which nation or "great city" reigns over the kings of the earth?
    John was identifying the city that *at that time* reigned over the kings of the earth. That obviously was Rome.

    At the same time it seems clear that Rome continues to exist in the endtimes scenario. She is the Great Harlot who continues to mislead the world, and she rides on the back of the Antichristian Empire, the "Beast." Oddly, the Antichrist will himself destroy her.

  12. #132
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Old man View Post
    John’s audience didn’t need to know the details just the overall jist of what was going to happen. They should have been able to get a very good general idea of what was supposed to happen even if they didn’t know exactly how it would come about or when.


    Actually, it does fit mankind and this isn’t the first time God has given the same call to His people.

    2 Cor. 6:14-18 Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN;
    And I will welcome you. And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me," Says the Lord Almighty.

    There has been no change to this call from the beginning. God has always expected His people to be separated from the ways of the world. To stop being like and living according to the values and morals of those who reject Him.

    This call from God in Rev is no different. It’s a call for His people to stop compromising. To stop trying to fit in with the world. To stop tying to get the worlds approval. To stop adjusting righteousness to what the current social norms are.


    But not as wide spread as what is being described in Rev regarding the GH.


    No, I’m not reading into the scriptures. The application and use of the number seven and the validity of the meaning of water is clearly established in scripture.


    It’s not “certain kings” … It’s “the kings” of the earth. The phrase “The kings” is far more inclusive than the limited number who subscribe to Sharia law.



    No religion past or present can be accountable for and I quote … “all those slain on the earth.” Clearly those religions can account for some but no where near all of them. Not all wars are religious ones. There are many who have been slain due to simple crime with no indication of religion being involved.

    The only common denominator in all those who have been slain on earth is mankind (within context). We’re not taking about those slain be wild beasts, eat by sharks, etc.
    Right. "Come out of her" would refer, in John's day, and in Paul's day, to the Roman world. Clearly, Rome was pagan and enticed believers to follow the corrupt ways of the world. Rome was, I think, set forth as an example of sin in John's day because Rome would continue, down through the ages, to be a source of worldly enticement for believers. The Catholic Church has had to resist the pull of Rome into humanism. The Protestants have had to resist the pull of Rome into Europe's preChristian past.

    In the endtimes Rome will ride on the back of a renewed pagan Europe, which I believe will be an Antichristian Empire. We're always having to reject the collapse of Christian faith and spirituality in our culture. And our culture has largely come from a mix of Christianity and Roman paganism.

  13. #133
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    Cool Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Right. "Come out of her" would refer, in John's day, and in Paul's day, to the Roman world. Clearly, Rome was pagan and enticed believers to follow the corrupt ways of the world. Rome was, I think, set forth as an example of sin in John's day because Rome would continue, down through the ages, to be a source of worldly enticement for believers. The Catholic Church has had to resist the pull of Rome into humanism. The Protestants have had to resist the pull of Rome into Europe's preChristian past.

    In the endtimes Rome will ride on the back of a renewed pagan Europe, which I believe will be an Antichristian Empire. We're always having to reject the collapse of Christian faith and spirituality in our culture. And our culture has largely come from a mix of Christianity and Roman paganism.
    I do not believe the coming united Europe will be anti-Christian. I believe they will embrace the Roman Catholic Church as a common heritage. I believe the little horn rising up in the ten crowns and subduing three of them is the RCC. That tells us some of the kings will not go for the Catholics being their binding.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  14. #134
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    In their time, I am sure they thought and believed that the RCC was the GH. But why just say "this is what other men in the past have believed"? Why not show from scripture and history how the RCC lines up with the GH?

    I have no doubt, nor do any others in this thread, the the RCC have been against Christ at times in their history. Does that mean they have always been anti-Christ? Is it possible the spirit behind the GH operated in her for a while? Sure. Does that mean she is THE GH?

    Again, I would like to see a verse by verse exegesis of your conclusion. You can refer back to history in this too. I am not convinced the RCC fits all the scriptures.
    The devil gives her her power Mark how can he only operate in her for awhile? Do you know who Dagon was and how the priests of Dagon were dressed?
    How can you pull down strongholds of Satan if you don't even have the strength to turn off your TV?

    ~ Leonard Ravenhill



  15. #135
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    Re: Who or what is or will be the Great H

    Quote Originally Posted by Old man View Post
    Well New York is home base of the UN.

    Does the UN have anything to do with trade?

    Does New York have anything to do with trade and or economics.

    New York has some of the largest sea ports in the world. And don't forget Wall Street. The New York stock exchange.

    What would happen to world economics if the UN went up in smoke (well perhaps more of a flash) and New York with it?
    Good points. And why in particular the "world trade center" was what was hit? Certainly all the kingdoms of the earth are increasing their wealth through trade with the US. While I don't think NY fits the entire description in scripture as THE Babylon. She certainly has enough similarities to her that we need to pay attention. She fits a lot of what Rev. 18 describes. And there's simply no doubt the US has spread sensuality throughout the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Old man View Post
    Well New York is home base of the UN.

    Does the UN have anything to do with trade?

    Does New York have anything to do with trade and or economics.

    New York has some of the largest sea ports in the world. And don't forget Wall Street. The New York stock exchange.

    What would happen to world economics if the UN went up in smoke (well perhaps more of a flash) and New York with it?
    Good points. And why in particular the "world trade center" was what was hit? Certainly all the kingdoms of the earth are increasing their wealth through trade with the US. While I don't think NY fits the entire description in scripture as THE Babylon. She certainly has enough similarities to her that we need to pay attention. She fits a lot of what Rev. 18 describes. And there's simply no doubt the US has spread sensuality throughout the world.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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