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Thread: Context determines timing in Luke 21:32

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    Context determines timing in Luke 21:32

    I posted the following in an OP on another board I am also a member of. Very few seemed focused on the OP though, except for a few Preterists. So I think I will see what happens on this board once this has been posted.



    Luke 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
    30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
    31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
    32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
    33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
    34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
    35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
    36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    The first thing to do is consider verse 34 and 36, and from those verses compare the following to the following in 1 Thessalonians 5.

    And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares(Luke 21:34)----Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night(1 Thessalonians 5:6-7)

    Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man(Luke 21:36)----For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ(1 Thessalonians 5:9).


    And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares(Luke 21:34)-----For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief(1 Thessalonians 5:2-4).

    It should be plainly obvious thusfar, the day of the Lord is in focus in the passage above from Luke 21.

    In that same context we are told the following---Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

    Consider this now, which further proves the context involves the day of the Lord. Compare the following in Luke 21 with that of the following in 2 Peter 3.

    Heaven and earth shall pass away(Luke 21:33)----But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up(2 Peter 3:10).


    It's undeniable at this point, the passage above in Luke 21 concerns the day of the Lord. We now have to consider verse 32----This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. And that clearly means this generation can't pass away before the day of the Lord. All of the above undeniably proves it.

    Below is further proof that Luke 21:32 is not meaning the first century.

    Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
    26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

    Matthew 24 and Revelation 11:2 places Luke 21:24 during the time of the great trib. Matthew 24 places Luke 21:25-26 after the time of the great trib. That means in Luke 21, verse 35, that is not meaning during the GT, but is meaning after the GT. It is meaning during Matthew 24:29, IOW during the 6th seal.

    The day of the Lord is not during the great trib, like Pretribbers typically like to conclude, it is after the great trib. And since Luke 21:32 indicates this generation shall not pass, till all be fulfilled, that obviously includes the fulfillment of the times of the Gentiles. Only Preterists might argue that the times of the Gentiles have already been fulfilled. Pretty much everyone else though, wouldn't dare make a ludicrous claim like that.

    In Luke 21:32, 'all' is meaning 'all', and it is not meaning 'some' instead. Clearly, and obviously at that, not everything Jesus predicted in the Discourse was fulfilled by 70 AD. That obviously means this generation is still yet to pass, and not that it already has. That would contradict the following if that were true---till all things be fulfilled.

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    Re: Context determines timing in Luke 21:32

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    Just want to highlight something from verse 24.
    The word underlined "until" shows a passage of time.
    It means there is a START time AND an END time.
    The START time is given as when the Jews are led away captive into all nations - a picture resonant with when Israel fell in 722 BC.
    The place in view is Jerusalem.
    The END time is when the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    What is the thing which changes when that time of the Gentiles is fulfilled?
    It is when Jerusalem is no longer trodden down.

    Now going by this it means that "this generation" CANNOT be limited to a single lifetime of one individual as some claim, but HAS to be in reference to the generation of the Jews.

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    Re: Context determines timing in Luke 21:32

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Just want to highlight something from verse 24.
    The word underlined "until" shows a passage of time.
    It means there is a START time AND an END time.
    The START time is given as when the Jews are led away captive into all nations - a picture resonant with when Israel fell in 722 BC.
    The place in view is Jerusalem.
    The END time is when the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    What is the thing which changes when that time of the Gentiles is fulfilled?
    It is when Jerusalem is no longer trodden down.

    Now going by this it means that "this generation" CANNOT be limited to a single lifetime of one individual as some claim, but HAS to be in reference to the generation of the Jews.
    I can agree that the start time of verse 24 began early on. What some don't seem to grasp though...and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles...this is meaning after 70 AD. After 70 AD though, and if meaning the literal city of Jerusalem, how was Jerusalem still being trodden down when it seemed like it was no longer on the map for quite some time, until early in the 20th century? I haven't studied the history of Jerusalem after it was destroyed in 70 AD up until the early 20th century though. There very well be a history that I'm not familiar with then, thus neglecting to take those things into account.

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    Re: Context determines timing in Luke 21:32

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I can agree that the start time of verse 24 began early on. What some don't seem to grasp though...and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles...this is meaning after 70 AD. After 70 AD though, and if meaning the literal city of Jerusalem, how was Jerusalem still being trodden down when it seemed like it was no longer on the map for quite some time, until early in the 20th century? I haven't studied the history of Jerusalem after it was destroyed in 70 AD up until the early 20th century though. There very well be a history that I'm not familiar with then, thus neglecting to take those things into account.
    Jerusalem was renamed and changed as to who could live there. The whole city was never destroyed.
    It has been in Gentile control since 70 AD throughout.
    Generally Jews have been forbidden from living there, though at times they have actually lived in the old quarter.
    Think of the Crusades and their attempts to retake it. Successful in the 1st and 6th Crusades.
    Then lost again to Muslim rulers.

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    Re: Context determines timing in Luke 21:32

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Jerusalem was renamed and changed as to who could live there. The whole city was never destroyed.
    It has been in Gentile control since 70 AD throughout.
    Generally Jews have been forbidden from living there, though at times they have actually lived in the old quarter.
    Think of the Crusades and their attempts to retake it. Successful in the 1st and 6th Crusades.
    Then lost again to Muslim rulers.
    So what about Revelation 11:2 then?

    Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

    Compared with...

    Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

    If we then use Revelation 11:2 to help interpret Luke 21:24, it seems to me that would mean Luke 21:24 is basically saying this....And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles forty and two months, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

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    Re: Context determines timing in Luke 21:32

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I posted the following in an OP on another board I am also a member of. Very few seemed focused on the OP though, except for a few Preterists. So I think I will see what happens on this board once this has been posted.



    Luke 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
    30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
    31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
    32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
    33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
    34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
    35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
    36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    The first thing to do is consider verse 34 and 36, and from those verses compare the following to the following in 1 Thessalonians 5.

    And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares(Luke 21:34)----Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night(1 Thessalonians 5:6-7)

    Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man(Luke 21:36)----For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ(1 Thessalonians 5:9).


    And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares(Luke 21:34)-----For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief(1 Thessalonians 5:2-4).

    It should be plainly obvious thusfar, the day of the Lord is in focus in the passage above from Luke 21.

    In that same context we are told the following---Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

    Consider this now, which further proves the context involves the day of the Lord. Compare the following in Luke 21 with that of the following in 2 Peter 3.

    Heaven and earth shall pass away(Luke 21:33)----But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up(2 Peter 3:10).


    It's undeniable at this point, the passage above in Luke 21 concerns the day of the Lord. We now have to consider verse 32----This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. And that clearly means this generation can't pass away before the day of the Lord. All of the above undeniably proves it.

    Below is further proof that Luke 21:32 is not meaning the first century.

    Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
    26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

    Matthew 24 and Revelation 11:2 places Luke 21:24 during the time of the great trib. Matthew 24 places Luke 21:25-26 after the time of the great trib. That means in Luke 21, verse 35, that is not meaning during the GT, but is meaning after the GT. It is meaning during Matthew 24:29, IOW during the 6th seal.

    The day of the Lord is not during the great trib, like Pretribbers typically like to conclude, it is after the great trib. And since Luke 21:32 indicates this generation shall not pass, till all be fulfilled, that obviously includes the fulfillment of the times of the Gentiles. Only Preterists might argue that the times of the Gentiles have already been fulfilled. Pretty much everyone else though, wouldn't dare make a ludicrous claim like that.

    In Luke 21:32, 'all' is meaning 'all', and it is not meaning 'some' instead. Clearly, and obviously at that, not everything Jesus predicted in the Discourse was fulfilled by 70 AD. That obviously means this generation is still yet to pass, and not that it already has. That would contradict the following if that were true---till all things be fulfilled.
    I will reiterate the things that I disagree with. Your points are entirely logical. The problem I see is in *how* you view the things you point out. Let me explain.

    1) The Day of the Lord is indeed, in this context, the Lord's Return, or the 2nd Coming. This Day is not included in the signs Jesus gave that must take place in "this generation." Rather, the Day of the Lord's Return is the overarching basis of judgment in each and every situation we find ourselves in, during our lifetimes. In the generation of Jesus' Disciples, they were being judged for how they behaved prior to the 70 AD judgment. They prepared for the 70 AD judgment by readying themselves for the 2nd Coming, as well.

    2) When Jesus said "all these things" must take place in *this generation,* he qualified "all these things." They were not *everything in history,* nor *everything Jesus would mention in the Discourse.* Rather, "all these things" referred to all the things that would presage the fall of the temple. After all, that was specifically what Jesus was being asked about. Jesus was saying, in effect: "all these things will happen in your lifetime, just prior to this event, and all these things will forecast an event that will actually take place in your time, or in the time of those living presently." This was a direct answer to the question: "when will this take place," referring to the fall of the temple.

    3) "Luke 21.36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." This refers to the Disciples' own willingness to live in accordance with Jesus' words and instructions. They qualified to escape the judgment God sent against the Jews in 70 AD by adhering to Jesus' commandments. They thus qualified to avoid divine judgment, and to escape the Roman siege on Jerusalem.

    It also qualified them, by the same obedience, to stand before the Son of Man at his 2nd Coming. Thus, living righteously qualifies one to escape God's acts of wrath against men today, as well as in the future, at the 2nd Coming.

    There is no difference. If we live in righteousness today, we escape *all* examples of God's judgment. Since He is pleased with us, we avoid historic judgments designed to punish ungodly nations. Even if we suffer in those national judgments, whether wars or earthquakes, we suffer not as recipients of divine judgment, but rather, as innocent casualties of national disobedience. As such, we remain in good standing with God at the 2nd Coming of Christ.

    4) Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
    26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

    The 70 AD judgment was not strictly a judgment at a single moment in time. It only *began* at that time. The signs that presaged that event were only "birth pains" of something that followed, extending far beyond 70 AD itself. As such, I don't view the "Great Tribulation" as the event of 70 AD alone. Rather, the Great Tribulation is the Jewish suffering throughout the NT age, in which they suffer Gentile oppression, preventing them from restoration in their homeland, physically and spiritually.

    And so, the event Jesus spoke of was never meant to limit Jewish suffering to the 70 AD event. Rather, that was just the beginning of an age-long Jewish punishment. We should not, therefore, confuse the 70 AD event with the 2nd Coming, even though the 70 AD judgment was the prism through which Jesus called his Disciples to prepare for eternal judgment. In a very real sense, the 70 AD judgment was indeed the final act of disobedience that led Jews at that time to final judgment.

    The fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD must not be confused with the 2nd Coming. But we should understand how it was an historical judgment of God against Jews who tried to remain within their outmoded worship system, in order to ignore the true temple, Jesus. This judgment was a foreshadowing of the final judgment of mankind at the 2nd Coming. And Jesus placed these 2 events side by side so that it would be understood: what we do in history determines what will happen to us at the 2nd Coming.

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    Re: Context determines timing in Luke 21:32

    As I agree with some of your OP and not wanting to dipsute the general flavor, I wish to set forth my understanding of Luke 21.

    The first thing is not to seek mirror images in the gospels. Each Gospel is written to achieve something and whereas the Lord may speak of the "poor in spirit" in Matthew, He speaks of the poor (in monetary terms) in Luke. They must be dealt with within the text, wording, grammar and both immediate context and the context of the Book. The natural divisions of Luke 21 are as follows:

    First section - the travail of Jerusalem in AD 70.
    Luke 21:6-24 our Lord reveals the travail of His Disciples UNTIL Jerusalem is encompassed by armies of its enemy. We know this because of the result. "... and (they) shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." This must be 70 AD for the following reasons;
    1. At the Second Coming of Christ, Judaeans have long since been led away captive and into all nations
    2. At the Second Coming of Christ, Israel will be GATHERED from all nations to which they were scattered (Matt.24:31) - not scattered
    3. The Times of the Gentiles are twofold. (i) From Adam until Joshua, and (ii) Nebuchadnezzar to the Beast. These are the two periods of time when God had no witness on earth, no House, no testimony and no reign over a piece of the earth. They are the TIMES when the Gentiles ruled the earth completely. From Joshua to Nebuchadnezzar God had a House, His Law, His testimony and His Name ona piece of the earth and nobody could touch them. At the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus, Gentile Government over the earth is CRUSHED as Daniel predicted, and the times of the Gentiles are then over.

    Thus, verse 24 ends the TIMES when Gentiles tread upon the dust of the holy City that once Housed the Living God.

    The second section - the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus
    Luke 21:25-27 abruptly changes the TIME. It is suddenly the TIME of the Son of man coming from the clouds. Some students are baffled by this jump, but it is common to scripture in prophecy. If the lord is talking about a certain People, and His dealings with this People end for while, God ignores the TIME INTERVAL. In Daniel 9 the 69th SEVEN ends with the murder of Messiah, and so, until God takes up with the murderers again in the 70th SEVEN, not a word is said of the interim. Verse 25 takes up, not with a dispersion among the nations but "signs" in both the heavens and on earth which cause distress. It is no longer Judea that is in focus but the heavens and ALL the earth, culminating in the Second Coming of the "Son of man". The jump of about 2,000 years is obvious.

    Thus Luke 21:27 introduces the events surrounding the Second Coming of the Lord.

    Whereas Luke 21:6-24 dealt with the DISCIPLES up to and including AD 70, Luke 21:28-36 now deals with the DISCIPLES at the time of the Second Coming of the Lord. In ...
    verse 28 a "redemption is nigh". Which "REDEMPTION"? Christ redeemed us on Golgotha in 30 AD, so it cannot mean that. A study of scripture and the word "redemption" will lead to only two other "redemptions". They are (i) the "redemption of the body" in resurrection (Rom.8:23; Eph.1:14), and the "redemption of the last day" (Eph.4:30). Those who miss the great Tribulation are not only "redeemed from among men" but are "redeemed from the earth" (Rev.14:3). And BOTH these "redemptions" occur on the same day - the day of resurrection AND rapture (1st Thess.4:16-17)

    verse 29 our Lord answers the question of His disciples in verse 7, "... and what SIGN will there be when these things shall come to pass?" The SIGN is the revival of Israel in and around Judea - the Fig Tree. It is NOT the end, but a SIGN of the impending end. And to confirm it our Lord adds "and all the trees". From Joshua 9, Daniel 4 and Ezekiel 31 we know that a Tree in Parable is a king and his kingdom. So a SIGN of the imminent Second Coming is that the nations will increase - or "shoot forth". Because of Colonialism it is estimated that there were 57 sovereign States in the world in 1914. As of 2011 the number is 195.

    Verse 30 tells us that the "summer is nigh". Matthew 19:28 speaks of this time as the "regeneration". The Greek word implies things that were dormant or seemingly dead in the winter "shooting forth in new life". But these signs of the nations are not the start of the Summer. It is only NEAR.

    Verse 31 speaks for itself. "So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand." The Kingdom of God, as predicted by Daniel, is when God's Emissary, a "little stone" crushes Gentile rule and institutes God's Kingdom and rule ON EARTH.

    Verse 32 sets forth one of two possible things. (i) The events from 70 AD till the Second Coming of the Lord will be within the time it takes for a man to be born and "generate" his first offspring. The Bible never ever settles on a time for this. Also, it would make the oldest man present in Judah at the time of our Lord's words over 110 years old in 70 AD alone. So we must turn to the only other alternate - the way scripture uses the word "generation". Briefly, it uses the word "generation" to describe WHAT IS GENERATED. In Genesis 1:11-12 God made an immutable Law. That which has its seed within itself will "generate" its own kind. Thus, if the Jews were a "generation of vipers" it does not mean how long a viper lives, but that the viper produces, or generates, ONLY vipers. It denotes the KIND - not the lifespan. Thus, "This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled" means that the men with the nature of Cain, who was faithless and a murderer, will REMAIN till our Lord Comes the Second Time.

    Verse 33 our Lord Jesus sets forth the immutability of prophecy. It will come to pass and not even time and the passing of the earth will change this prophecy or its fulfillment.

    Verse 34 is a warning to His disciples. It addresses two things. (i) The supposed remedy for suffering. The whole Book of Luke, and the Whole New Testament teaches that a Christian is in enemy territory and will suffer. There is a way to avoid this. It is by joining the enemy in their excesses. If you join men in their fleshly behavior they will welcome you and not persecute you. (ii) The cares of this life. Every man, knowingly or not, will have a life now, and a life after resurrection. Our Lord has promised, in all four gospels, that the man who loses his (soul) life for His sake in THIS AGE, will gain it in the next. Those who have sufferings for our Lords interests will "enter the JOY of the Lord" when He returns. Contrariwise, a man who attains a good life and bliss in THIS life by ignoring the Lord's interests, will, in the next life, enter "perdition" - extreme suffering of the body and soul. So the Disciple is warned about the cares of "THIS" Life while in enemy territory.

    Verse 35 "For as a snare shall it come" What shall come as a snare? The contents of verses 25-26! (i) on earth distress of nations, (ii) with perplexity, (iii) the sea and the waves roaring, (iv) men's hearts failing them for fear, (v) and (men's hearts failing them) for looking after those things which are coming on the earth, for (vi) the powers of heaven shall be shaken. That is, the Great TRIBULATION! And what is its extent? " ... on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth." No corner, no cave, no summit, no mansion, no hovel, no desert, no country will be spared. It is THE WHOLE EARTH. Are there some men who will escape if they are on the earth? NO! Tribulation upon ALL men if they be found on the earth!

    Verse 36 What action shall the disciple take in view of this dire and dreary threat by none other than the Son of God? Is there "redemption" for the disciple? Can he, by the efficacy of Christ, escape? YES! BUT IT IS CONDITIONAL! One must be a disciple, and one must BE COUNTED WORTHY! Some will be disciples but NOT ACCOUNTED WORTHY! It is, "Watch ye therefore, ... ." The "therefore" points to a conclusion. Will the disciple be found worthy to ESCAPE? If yes, what actions are needed? The answer is "watch and pray ALWAYS". The man lives under a huge dam wall. Daily he notices cracks and leaks at its base. He reports it to the authorities, but they are indifferent. The man WATCHES and never stops WATCHING. His behavior is dominated and regulated by the size of the cracks. One night, he SEES a change in the demeanor of the cracks. He races to his house, gathers his family, and leaves house and land. He makes good his escape. The rest of the town perish that night in the flood as the wall comes down. The man's WATCHING dictated his BEHAVIOR. So the diligent Christian. He watches the rise of the "days like Noah's" and the "days like Lot's". Christians everywhere relax. A little adultery here and a little corruption there is surely allowed. A little homosexuality is allowed into the congregation and is ignored. After all, God loves everybody. TRUE! "But a little leaven leavens the whole lump"! And soon we have Laodicea.

    "Pray always" is a method to secure an escape. Why. Well, first your prayer will be, IF YOU ARE WATCHING, "Lord, I SEE the signs. Lord I SEE the nature of men and their doings. I SEE that you cannot tolerate this forever. I SEE your promised wrath impending. SAVE ME! Second, "Praying ALWAYS" means you are in comtact with the Lord ALWAYS. You have a RELATIONSHIP with Him. His things are on your heart, and your things are on His heart. You cannot pray always and at the same time steal, lie and cheat. You lie in the bed of your neighbor's wife with her and pray ALWAYS. They don't go together. One will preclude the other. "Praying ALWAYS" will foster a diligent given Christian life.

    And finally, in what way and procedure will the man of God escape. He will "stand before the Son of man". Where then is the Son of man. He has made a journey from the highest heavens to the "CLOUDS". The Great Tribulation is set to be unleashed and the Son of man only comes to earth AFTER "the Tribulation of those days" (Matt.24:29). So He stays in the clouds while the earth is suddenly plunged into horror. AND IT IS THERE, IN THE CLOUDS ONLY, THAT ONE CAN STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN. He is not present on earth till AFTER the Tribulation. And the Tribulation is "upon the WHOLE earth and upon ALL men that dwell on earth". If you are on earth you've had it. If you want to miss this Tribulation, you must (i) be ACCOUNTED WORTHY, and (ii) be CAUGHT AWAY to the clouds.

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    Re: Context determines timing in Luke 21:32

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I posted the following in an OP on another board I am also a member of. Very few seemed focused on the OP though, except for a few Preterists. So I think I will see what happens on this board once this has been posted.



    Luke 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
    30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
    31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
    32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
    33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
    34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
    35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
    36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    The first thing to do is consider verse 34 and 36, and from those verses compare the following to the following in 1 Thessalonians 5.

    And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares(Luke 21:34)----Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night(1 Thessalonians 5:6-7)

    Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man(Luke 21:36)----For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ(1 Thessalonians 5:9).


    And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares(Luke 21:34)-----For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief(1 Thessalonians 5:2-4).

    It should be plainly obvious thusfar, the day of the Lord is in focus in the passage above from Luke 21.

    In that same context we are told the following---Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

    Consider this now, which further proves the context involves the day of the Lord. Compare the following in Luke 21 with that of the following in 2 Peter 3.

    Heaven and earth shall pass away(Luke 21:33)----But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up(2 Peter 3:10).


    It's undeniable at this point, the passage above in Luke 21 concerns the day of the Lord. We now have to consider verse 32----This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. And that clearly means this generation can't pass away before the day of the Lord. All of the above undeniably proves it.

    Below is further proof that Luke 21:32 is not meaning the first century.

    Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
    26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

    Matthew 24 and Revelation 11:2 places Luke 21:24 during the time of the great trib. Matthew 24 places Luke 21:25-26 after the time of the great trib. That means in Luke 21, verse 35, that is not meaning during the GT, but is meaning after the GT. It is meaning during Matthew 24:29, IOW during the 6th seal.

    The day of the Lord is not during the great trib, like Pretribbers typically like to conclude, it is after the great trib. And since Luke 21:32 indicates this generation shall not pass, till all be fulfilled, that obviously includes the fulfillment of the times of the Gentiles. Only Preterists might argue that the times of the Gentiles have already been fulfilled. Pretty much everyone else though, wouldn't dare make a ludicrous claim like that.

    In Luke 21:32, 'all' is meaning 'all', and it is not meaning 'some' instead. Clearly, and obviously at that, not everything Jesus predicted in the Discourse was fulfilled by 70 AD. That obviously means this generation is still yet to pass, and not that it already has. That would contradict the following if that were true---till all things be fulfilled.
    There can be different days of the lord the day of the lord mean the day of judgement

    zephaniah chapter one talks about a day of the lord which happened back in the OT times

    The fall of Jerusalem was a day of the lord just like the final day of our world will also be a day of the lord or a day of judgement

    Jesus was warning the Jewish saints to not be complacent and slide back into there old ways as he warned them to take heed of his warnings so they could flee the city and escape the judgement on the day of the lord in 70AD

    Paul used the same teachings of Jesus in 1 these 5 so that Christians won’t become complacent and back slide so that they will miss the judgement of the future day of the lord and be raptured

    There can also be different great tribulations there was a great tribulation on Israel and a great tribulation on the saints

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    Re: Context determines timing in Luke 21:32

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    So what about Revelation 11:2 then?

    Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

    Compared with...

    Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

    If we then use Revelation 11:2 to help interpret Luke 21:24, it seems to me that would mean Luke 21:24 is basically saying this....And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles forty and two months, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    Nope Rev 11:2 does NOT interpret Luke 21:24 as you claim.

    What Rev 11:2 shows is that AFTER Jerusalem is no longer trodden down, there will again be a treading down for 42 months whilst the 2W witness. So Rev 11 shows TWo things.
    1) That Jerusalem will be restored to no longer being trodden down.
    2) That Jerusalem will after that be attacked again.

    This is what Matt 24 shows - a future attack on Jerusalem, which made no sense for the last 1800 years, as Jerusalem was still being down trodden. Now this is no longer true so this becomes changed.

    IOW the chronology is
    Luke 21 Jerusalem destroyed and trodden upon - 70 AD until 1967
    Rev 11 Jerusalem attacked but not taken, 2 W killed and 2W resurrected, AC starts the GT in Jerusalem having declared himself god in Jerusalem in the temple which John has noted.
    Matt 24 the GT starts in Jerusalem in conjunction with what is stated in Rev 12.

    Notice Jerusalem is NOT trodden down for only 42 months.

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    Re: Context determines timing in Luke 21:32

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I can agree that the start time of verse 24 began early on. What some don't seem to grasp though...and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles...this is meaning after 70 AD. After 70 AD though, and if meaning the literal city of Jerusalem, how was Jerusalem still being trodden down when it seemed like it was no longer on the map for quite some time, until early in the 20th century? I haven't studied the history of Jerusalem after it was destroyed in 70 AD up until the early 20th century though. There very well be a history that I'm not familiar with then, thus neglecting to take those things into account.

    even today , though Jerusalem is in Jewish hands its still divvied up between Jew and gentile, its against Israeli law for a Jew to set foot in the area of the dome of the rock.
    Let there be Light

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    Re: Context determines timing in Luke 21:32

    Quote Originally Posted by DPMartin View Post
    even today , though Jerusalem is in Jewish hands its still divvied up between Jew and gentile, its against Israeli law for a Jew to set foot in the area of the dome of the rock.
    Which is the opposite of Rev 11:2 which has the temple available but the rest is trodden.

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    Re: Context determines timing in Luke 21:32

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Nope Rev 11:2 does NOT interpret Luke 21:24 as you claim.

    What Rev 11:2 shows is that AFTER Jerusalem is no longer trodden down, there will again be a treading down for 42 months whilst the 2W witness. So Rev 11 shows TWo things.
    1) That Jerusalem will be restored to no longer being trodden down.
    2) That Jerusalem will after that be attacked again.

    This is what Matt 24 shows - a future attack on Jerusalem, which made no sense for the last 1800 years, as Jerusalem was still being down trodden. Now this is no longer true so this becomes changed.

    IOW the chronology is
    Luke 21 Jerusalem destroyed and trodden upon - 70 AD until 1967
    Rev 11 Jerusalem attacked but not taken, 2 W killed and 2W resurrected, AC starts the GT in Jerusalem having declared himself god in Jerusalem in the temple which John has noted.
    Matt 24 the GT starts in Jerusalem in conjunction with what is stated in Rev 12.

    Notice Jerusalem is NOT trodden down for only 42 months.

    Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


    Yet the text is not true if Jerusalem is trodden down of the Gentiles, then not trodden down of the Gentiles, then trodden down of the Gentiles. not trodden down of the Gentiles does not remotely equal and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Only trodden down by the Gentiles equals that.

    You're basically suggesting that the text is making two claims though it is making only one claim.

    and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

    and Jerusalem shall not be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

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    Re: Context determines timing in Luke 21:32

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Which is the opposite of Rev 11:2 which has the temple available but the rest is trodden.
    I see zero reason that the temple meant in Revelation 11:1 has to be meaning a literal brick and mortar temple. I know Preterists need it to mean a literal one, that way they can claim that the temple meant here is the 2nd temple before it was destroyed in 70 AD. They typically interpret the temple in the literal sense and the 2Ws in a non literal sense. Very inconsistent IOW.

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    Re: Context determines timing in Luke 21:32

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Thus, "This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled" means that the men with the nature of Cain, who was faithless and a murderer, will REMAIN till our Lord Comes the Second Time.
    Your post had too many points for me to try and address. I agree with some of your points and some I don't, so I guess that makes us even then. What I have quoted above by you, that sums it up nicely IMO. I can see that fitting.

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    Re: Context determines timing in Luke 21:32

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    I see zero reason that the temple meant in Revelation 11:1 has to be meaning a literal brick and mortar temple. I know Preterists need it to mean a literal one, that way they can claim that the temple meant here is the 2nd temple before it was destroyed in 70 AD. They typically interpret the temple in the literal sense and the 2Ws in a non literal sense. Very inconsistent IOW.
    Of course it has to be a literal place. How anyone cannot see that is a bit difficult to fathom.
    I'll explain why for you using the verses:
    Rev 11:1* Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there,*
    Rev 11:2* but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.*

    There are SIX very clear reasons to believe it is a literal place and not simply symbolic, and as far as I can see NO reason (from the text itself) to believe it isn't. There is ONLY ONE reason not to believe it is literal, which is the simple fact that there is no temple at the moment (and some would argue there never will be).

    1) John is given a measuring rod like a staff. This is something to hold by which to measure. This is a very physical description. Further this should highlight to us other prophecies and scripture where we are clear it is EXACT measurements being used:

    Rev 21:15* And the one who spoke with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and walls.*
    Rev 21:16* The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its width. And he measured the city with his rod, 12,000 stadia. Its length and width and height are equal.

    Now some would say that Rev 21 isn't a literal place and not a literal measurement. I thought you believed it was a literal place and that these were real measurements.

    Eze 40:3* When he brought me there, behold, there was a man whose appearance was like bronze, with a linen cord and a measuring reed in his hand. And he was standing in the gateway.

    Just about everybody agrees this is a literal measurement also. Same device seen, a measuring rod or reed used for actual measuring of physical objects.

    2) John is told to measure the temple AND those who worship there. This means those who worship - the individuals - are NOT the temple, for it is measured separately.

    3) As I think you know I am not Preterist, but I will consider anyone's position on the merit of the position, the natural reading is that it is a physical building. I also think the 2W are real people, so I remain consistent in my approach.

    4) If we try to think of the temple of God as symbolic, then what is the symbolism of the outer court? This makes no sense.

    5) The city is trampled, which you would agree is a literal meaning and not symbolic, yet this means YOU are not being consistent. The whole is literal and consistent within that. The forty two months are also literal.

    6) John makes a single reference to temple meaning Jesus' physical body in the Gospel and one reference in Revelation to Jesus and the Father being the temple. Every other reference is either to the physical temple in Jerusalem or the heavenly temple which is God's throne room. Now it is obvious John is NOT measuring Jesus, nor the Father.

    So I am not defending any Preterists, but I am being consistent throughout the two verses. I take the place as being literal at all times, as well as the two witnesses and the city and the period of time. I take the simple meaning and recognise that there is no temple at the moment, but that revelation predicts a future temple of some sort. This is supported by Paul's statement in 2 Thess 2.

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