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Thread: who is that Woman in the wilderness?

  1. #31
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    Re: who is that Woman in the wilderness?

    W
    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Well, I've long been told the Woman is Israel because of the crown of 12 stars she wears. Israel is the one who had a "wilderness experience." And Israel is the one Satan hates because they represent the Kingdom of God on the earth.

    So Israel, the Woman, gave birth to Christ, the Man-Child. That means Israel, who are God's genuine children, succeeded in giving birth to their Messiah.

    And then, switching to the endtimes, we see Israel, the Woman, still in the wilderness, attempting to come into her eternal inheritance. And we see her children, the Jews, fighting to establish Christianity within Israel, and Gentile believers also fighting to establish Christianity in the nations of the world. The Beast, inspired by Satan, attempts to stop Christianity both in Israel and in all the world.

    In this scenario, the Woman and her children are indistinguishable, because they both represent believers. It's just that the Woman represents the nation, and her children represent individual Jewish believers. The other children are individual Christians in other nations. Satan tries to destroy them all, the Jewish nation, Jewish believers, and Christians throughout the world.

    So yes, I do see the Woman in a positive light, in contrast to the Great Whore. I don't see why they can't be competitors for True Woman!
    Fair enough and I do also see her in a positive light in the first two forms but what do you think happens to her after the 3 1/2 years?

    Is it just a coincidence that we find another woman in the wilderness 5 chapters later?

    Just wondering your thoughts

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    Re: who is that Woman in the wilderness?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Well, I've long been told the Woman is Israel because of the crown of 12 stars she wears. Israel is the one who had a "wilderness experience." And Israel is the one Satan hates because they represent the Kingdom of God on the earth.

    So Israel, the Woman, gave birth to Christ, the Man-Child. That means Israel, who are God's genuine children, succeeded in giving birth to their Messiah.

    And then, switching to the endtimes, we see Israel, the Woman, still in the wilderness, attempting to come into her eternal inheritance. And we see her children, the Jews, fighting to establish Christianity within Israel, and Gentile believers also fighting to establish Christianity in the nations of the world. The Beast, inspired by Satan, attempts to stop Christianity both in Israel and in all the world.

    In this scenario, the Woman and her children are indistinguishable, because they both represent believers. It's just that the Woman represents the nation, and her children represent individual Jewish believers. The other children are individual Christians in other nations. Satan tries to destroy them all, the Jewish nation, Jewish believers, and Christians throughout the world.

    So yes, I do see the Woman in a positive light, in contrast to the Great Whore. I don't see why they can't be competitors for True Woman!

    Also it says that it is only her other offspring who are Christians

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    Re: who is that Woman in the wilderness?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Also it says that it is only her other offspring who are Christians
    It's kind of a maddening vision because there is little attempt to identify. It's so symbolic. But then I look again, and the Serpent is identified, the Woman *seems* to be identified, the children of the Woman are identified, and we are left with that.

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    Re: who is that Woman in the wilderness?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    It's kind of a maddening vision because there is little attempt to identify. It's so symbolic. But then I look again, and the Serpent is identified, the Woman *seems* to be identified, the children of the Woman are identified, and we are left with that.
    So what do you think happens to her after the 3 1/2 years?

    The 3 1/2 years of protection are mentioned for a reason

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    Re: who is that Woman in the wilderness?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    So what do you think happens to her after the 3 1/2 years?

    The 3 1/2 years of protection are mentioned for a reason
    If you are an amillennialist, and I believe you are, then you may not see the purpose of the Woman, as I see it. I see the Woman as Israel because it was her duty, as a Jewish nation, to bring forth Jewish believers. And it was also her purpose to bring forth non-Jewish believers.

    As I see it--a Premillennialist--Israel and the Christian nations have to come to a position of representing Christ among the nations. This would be done through the establishment of Christian nations, including Israel.

    Obviously we don't see that yet, in any kind of permanent way. Israel fell away, as are the Christian nations of the world. But I believe there are Christian remnants in all of these nations, comprising the "firstfruits" of the age to come.

    Many biblical prophecies speak of Israel's time of future glory, when her enemies will never persecute her again. This is the "Jewish Hope," in the "Age to Come." You may view this in some equivalent way from an Amillennial perspective?

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    Re: who is that Woman in the wilderness?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    If you are an amillennialist, and I believe you are, then you may not see the purpose of the Woman, as I see it. I see the Woman as Israel because it was her duty, as a Jewish nation, to bring forth Jewish believers. And it was also her purpose to bring forth non-Jewish believers.

    As I see it--a Premillennialist--Israel and the Christian nations have to come to a position of representing Christ among the nations. This would be done through the establishment of Christian nations, including Israel.

    Obviously we don't see that yet, in any kind of permanent way. Israel fell away, as are the Christian nations of the world. But I believe there are Christian remnants in all of these nations, comprising the "firstfruits" of the age to come.

    Many biblical prophecies speak of Israel's time of future glory, when her enemies will never persecute her again. This is the "Jewish Hope," in the "Age to Come." You may view this in some equivalent way from an Amillennial perspective?
    yes and I agree with most of what you say and there are many believers among many nations including Israel still spreading the gospel

    But what do you think happens to the woman after the 3 1/2 years of protection?

    If she is Israel then what happenes to her after the 3 1/3 years?

    I don’t mean to bother you with this but I would like to know your answer or if you simply don’t know or have a view

    Would revelation leave this answer up in the air or does chapter 17 show us?

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    Re: who is that Woman in the wilderness?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I see the Woman as Israel because it was her duty, as a Jewish nation, to bring forth Jewish believers. And it was also her purpose to bring forth non-Jewish believers.
    Hi Randy.
    I would say Israel's purpose was to bring forth Messiah. As rev 12 suggests , she brings forth the Man child, and from his chosen ones the nations become one fold along with believing Israel. All are born again into one Holy Nation while the unbelieving of those nations , including Israel perish.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

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    Re: who is that Woman in the wilderness?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Hi Randy.
    I would say Israel's purpose was to bring forth Messiah. As rev 12 suggests , she brings forth the Man child, and from his chosen ones the nations become one fold along with believing Israel. All are born again into one Holy Nation while the unbelieving of those nations , including Israel perish.
    Yes great post Jeff and this ties right into the verse below

    Rev 12:17
    17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus [c]Christ.

    Gods people now are those who both believe in Jesus and also keep Gods commandments

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    Re: who is that Woman in the wilderness?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Hi Randy.
    I would say Israel's purpose was to bring forth Messiah. As rev 12 suggests , she brings forth the Man child, and from his chosen ones the nations become one fold along with believing Israel. All are born again into one Holy Nation while the unbelieving of those nations , including Israel perish.
    Nicely said ! .....
    ďAĒ cannot be ďAĒ & not ďAĒ at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

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    Re: who is that Woman in the wilderness?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    yes and I agree with most of what you say and there are many believers among many nations including Israel still spreading the gospel

    But what do you think happens to the woman after the 3 1/2 years of protection?

    If she is Israel then what happenes to her after the 3 1/3 years?

    I donít mean to bother you with this but I would like to know your answer or if you simply donít know or have a view

    Would revelation leave this answer up in the air or does chapter 17 show us?
    No, Marty, what I'm saying is that I believe the Woman with 12 stars is Israel, and that after her 3.5 years period of protection she experiences national salvation at the coming of Christ. This is the Jewish Hope, as many people see in OT prophecies. This is the time when national Israel will be elevated, never to be oppressed by the nations again.

    And lest you think I'm Jew-centric, or Israel-centric, I would hasten to say that the same truth applies to all Christian nations. Those nations who return to the Lord will be elevated in the Age to Come, the Kingdom Age. This is not the salvation of every last person in every Christian nation, but rather, this is the deliverance of nations from divine wrath, such that they return again to God's blessings.

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    Re: who is that Woman in the wilderness?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Hi Randy.
    I would say Israel's purpose was to bring forth Messiah. As rev 12 suggests , she brings forth the Man child, and from his chosen ones the nations become one fold along with believing Israel. All are born again into one Holy Nation while the unbelieving of those nations , including Israel perish.
    We do not see things exactly alike, but we certainly have a lot of beliefs in common. Thanks!

  12. #42

    Re: who is that Woman in the wilderness?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No, Marty, what I'm saying is that I believe the Woman with 12 stars is Israel, and that after her 3.5 years period of protection she experiences national salvation at the coming of Christ. This is the Jewish Hope, as many people see in OT prophecies. This is the time when national Israel will be elevated, never to be oppressed by the nations again.

    And lest you think I'm Jew-centric, or Israel-centric, I would hasten to say that the same truth applies to all Christian nations. Those nations who return to the Lord will be elevated in the Age to Come, the Kingdom Age. This is not the salvation of every last person in every Christian nation, but rather, this is the deliverance of nations from divine wrath, such that they return again to God's blessings.
    Just wondering, RandyK, how do you define National Israel? I realize it may seem a silly question, but I was in a conversation a few years back that really altered my thinking.

    When I was asked that question, I answered that I thought National Israel consisted of all of those who trace back to one of the 12 tribes. I was shown that it's most likely that everyone alive today would trace back to at least one of the 12 tribes if not most or all of them.

    That sounded crazy to me until I was shown the math. The lady that showed this to me explained it this way...

    If we use the extremely conservative figure of 40 years for a generation, we've had 50 generations since the times of Jesus and then approx another 20 since the fall of the Northern kingdom. The first generation line back we all have 2 (Mom and Dad), then 4 the second line back, then 8 etc. So if we take 2 to the 50th power (just to get us back to the times of Jesus), we would have 1.2 quadrillion great, great, great etc. grandparents on that 50th line. Obviously, there would have to be a lot of commonality among that 1.2 quadrillion as there was nowhere near that many people to trace back to. If you go back to the scattering of the Northern Kingdom into the nations, that number gets into the quintrillions... ridiculous

    Anyway, the point she was making is that we tend to have an extremely narrow view of genealogy, when the true scope is the extreme opposite of our narrow view. In fact, at the time when Paul told Timothy to avoid endless genealogies it was already a mathematical likelihood that all those living at that time traced back to at least one of the 12 tribes due to the scattered Northern Kingdom some 20-30 generations earlier (30 being based on a more reasonable 25 year generation).

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    Re: who is that Woman in the wilderness?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No, Marty, what I'm saying is that I believe the Woman with 12 stars is Israel, and that after her 3.5 years period of protection she experiences national salvation at the coming of Christ. This is the Jewish Hope, as many people see in OT prophecies. This is the time when national Israel will be elevated, never to be oppressed by the nations again.

    And lest you think I'm Jew-centric, or Israel-centric, I would hasten to say that the same truth applies to all Christian nations. Those nations who return to the Lord will be elevated in the Age to Come, the Kingdom Age. This is not the salvation of every last person in every Christian nation, but rather, this is the deliverance of nations from divine wrath, such that they return again to God's blessings.
    But if they are never again oppressed by the nations what about when Satan is released at the end of the 1000 years in the futurest view?

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    Re: who is that Woman in the wilderness?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shimatoree66 View Post
    Just wondering, RandyK, how do you define National Israel? I realize it may seem a silly question, but I was in a conversation a few years back that really altered my thinking.

    When I was asked that question, I answered that I thought National Israel consisted of all of those who trace back to one of the 12 tribes. I was shown that it's most likely that everyone alive today would trace back to at least one of the 12 tribes if not most or all of them.

    That sounded crazy to me until I was shown the math. The lady that showed this to me explained it this way...

    If we use the extremely conservative figure of 40 years for a generation, we've had 50 generations since the times of Jesus and then approx another 20 since the fall of the Northern kingdom. The first generation line back we all have 2 (Mom and Dad), then 4 the second line back, then 8 etc. So if we take 2 to the 50th power (just to get us back to the times of Jesus), we would have 1.2 quadrillion great, great, great etc. grandparents on that 50th line. Obviously, there would have to be a lot of commonality among that 1.2 quadrillion as there was nowhere near that many people to trace back to. If you go back to the scattering of the Northern Kingdom into the nations, that number gets into the quintrillions... ridiculous

    Anyway, the point she was making is that we tend to have an extremely narrow view of genealogy, when the true scope is the extreme opposite of our narrow view. In fact, at the time when Paul told Timothy to avoid endless genealogies it was already a mathematical likelihood that all those living at that time traced back to at least one of the 12 tribes due to the scattered Northern Kingdom some 20-30 generations earlier (30 being based on a more reasonable 25 year generation).
    Her maths, though correct dealing solely with numbers highlights an error in thinking.
    Most people didn;t travel all over the world so the gene pool remained far more homogenised than today.
    So if we have a pool of 1,000 parents, which form 500 couples, then the children of those 500 couples (if they have 4 children each) then give us a pool of 2,000 prospective people to marry, though if half are male and half female then 1,000. Regardless this gives a doubling of the potential whilst still remaining in the original group.
    Now if most of these people do not travel outside of their tribal lands, then there is only a tiny number whose genes might have been shared.
    However as the Jews were less likely to intermarry with a non-Jew so the chances of this happening was smaller. It did still happen, but was less common.
    Therefore the entirety of number required can be found WITHIN the initial group.So most people do not have even a trace of the 12 tribes. The closest is going back to Noah and then down.
    So the maths though seemingly correct actually ignores the permutations which happen INSIDE the group which matches the requirements.

  15. #45

    Re: who is that Woman in the wilderness?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Well, it's been asked a lot of times. But I'm looking at it once again. I think it is important to understand the language that sets up this particular vision. Israel entered into a wilderness in coming out of Egypt. But in the NT era the Church began with Jewish believers who were instantly thrust into a new kind of wilderness--a wilderness I call the Great Tribulation.

    It is said that Satan spewed a flood after the woman to destroy her. This was right after the man-child was snatched up to God. I believe the man-child was Christ, and that the flood from Satan was the Roman Army sent against Jerusalem. But the earth swallowed up the flood, which may indicate that as Jewish believers entered into the wilderness of Jewish Dispersion, the Roman Army was redirected at other targets, out in Europe.

    But this time period is the final 3.5 years of the age. Even though Israel has now been rebirthed as a state, the Jewish believers are still, in a sense, out in the wilderness, not yet accepted within the Jewish state as genuine advocates of Jewish religion. But Satan goes also after other believers in other countries. These are the other children of the Woman.

    The Woman is Israel, as a type of Eve. She gives birth to believing children, to the Jewish church, to Christ, and to Christians in other lands. After 3.5 years Satan will be defeated, and the Kingdom will come.

    I really have no idea how accurate my view may be? If it is true, it would require a very non-chronological sequence.

    The following is an edited part of a study which may help in the answer to the question asked.



    In Revelation 12 a woman is described as:

    "....a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:"[Revelation 12:1]

    Who is this woman? Where are the remnant of her seed today?[Revelation 12:17]This woman is in contrast to the whore of Revelation 17:3-5.



    The Identity of the Woman


    The feature which most assuredly points to the identity of the woman,clothed with the sun,is her bringing forth of a man child to rule all nations with a rod of iron.This child was also caught up to the throne of God.[Revelation 12:5]

    The scriptures show that this is a reference to the Lord Jesus.[See;Revelation 19:11-15;John 1:1,14;Psalm 2:7-9;Acts 13;33]

    Also, when was it that Satan was cast down from heaven? This will help to identify the time period in which these things occurred.[Revelation 12:7-13;John 12:31]


    Some persons will immediately say the woman must be Mary and even claim that Mary is the mother of the Church.However Mary only gave birth to a small number who would become Christians.The passage shows however that all who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ are the seed of the woman.The birth and bringing forth of seed is therefore not a reference to a natural birth but to a spiritual one.The woman therefore is the one from whom the Lord Jesus and his original disciples came and whom is the pattern or mother for all who came after and followed in their footsteps.The seed therefore refers to Christians ie.those who have accepted Christ as saviour.(Have the testimony of Jesus)


    "Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children."[Isaiah 66:7,8;Matthew 21:4,5]


    The woman represents the the true people of God ,the faithful of Israel,who accepted Jesus as the Christ,the son of God and eventually became the Church.Her seed follows the pattern set by her.[See;Matthew 1:18-23;Luke 1:5,6;2:25,36-38]

    To be clothed with the sun is for her to be walking in God's righteousness.[Matthew 13:43]

    The moon under her feet pictures the moon being trampled or kept under.[eg.Daniel 8:10]The moon is the ruler of the darkness.[Genesis 1:16] This represents satan and his forces.[Ephesians 6:11,12]

    Hence the woman is walking in God's righteousness and is overcoming satan.The crown is also a symbol of this victory of God's people over evil and shows the glory attributed to them.[Proverbs 4:9;Isaiah 62:1-3]When the glory is faded,the crown is removed or destroyed.[Jeremiah 2:16;13:18]


    The stars in the crown represent people and refer either to the twelve tribes of Israel or the twelve apostles even as stones in a crown also symbolized people.[Deuteronomy 1:10;Zechariah 9:16]


    The Dragon - Rome used by Satan


    The dragon is clearly explained to be the devil or satan.However it was not a spirit which actually carried out the persecution of the woman,nor which tried to devour the man child when it was born.These actions were carried out by Roman approved rulers.[Revelation 12:4,13,17]


    The Herod family which ruled in Palestine was placed in that position by the Roman,Marc Anthony.The High Priest was also appointed by Roman influence and even Cleopatra the companion of Marc Anthony had Herod appoint a High Priest of her choice.When Marc Anthony lost influence in the Roman kingdom,the next ruler,Octavian(Augustus Caesar) confirmed the ruling Herod in his position.[Luke 1:5;2:1]


    It was Herod who attempted to kill the Lord Jesus when he was still a babe.[Matthew 2:7-18;Revelation 12:4]The High Priests along with other members of the Herod family persecuted the Church.[Acts 8:1;9:1,2;12:1,2;Revelation 12:13,17]


    Other rulers in the Roman kingdom also persecuted the woman and her seed,the most notable ones being;Domitian,Nero,and Diocletian who were Roman emperors.According to the historian Tacitus,Nero(54-68 AD),called Christians; "simple,vermin and antisocial". It is believed that he was responsible for the execution of the apostle Paul.



    The Persecutions of Rome



    The dragon therefore must also be symbolic of the Roman empire inspired by satan to carry out his work of persecuting the saints.This is confirmed by Daniel who said the fourth beast,which is Rome,would wear out(or afflict) the saints,[Daniel 7:23-25]


    Great persecution was carried out by the dragon inspired Romans against the saints in an effort to destroy the saints or for them to deny the truth or worship falsely.

    Fire destroyed parts of Rome in 64AD and Nero killed a vast multitude of Christians as scapegoats.Shortly after,Christianity was declared a capital crime for which pardon could be obtained by offering sacrifice to the pagan gods or the emperor.Those who refused to do this were killed.


    The main cause of the Christian's persecution was that they rejected both the emperor as a god and also the gods whose favour was believed to have brought success to the empire.Distrust of Christians increased because of their detachment and reluctance to serve in the imperial service and army.The worst persecutions were carried out by co-emperors,Diocletian and Galerius in AD 303.The persecutions included;being, given to lions,torn to pieces by dogs,burnt as human torches after being impaled.Their sufferings were a spectacle in games staged day and night in the emperor's own gardens.Some were also forced to participate in games after being condemned.They were supposed to have been gladiators,but many refused to fight and were killed.



    The Wilderness Experience


    The woman is said to be preserved by God in the wilderness for 1260 days or for a time,times,and half a time.She is carried/flees into the wilderness and is fed and nourished.[Revelation 12:6,14]

    When did this occur and for how long was this period?


    This may be an area of dispute and controversy,as some say the 1260 days represent 1260 years and run from the council of Nicea(325AD),until the middle ages,about 1585.Others say this time period runs from 538AD,when the bishop of Rome was exalted, to,1798AD,when the bishop of Rome was taken prisoner by the French army.Others believe this is something which will occur in the future.

    Rather than focus on the time period however,let us first identify who it is that went into the wilderness,so as to identify the woman.We will also see that there is a difference between the woman and those called her seed.


    The woman has seed and hence can be considered to be a mother i.e the source of the seed.This means those called seed come from her and pattern her ways.The Church in Jerusalem can be viewed in this way as all the other Churches/Christians came from what started there as the gospel was spread from that point.[Luke 24:47-49;Acts 1:8;2:1-5,37-41;8:1-8;9:1,2;Galatians 4:26;Hebrews 12:22,23]Other Churches even referred disputes to this location and decrees were sent out from there.[Acts 15:1,2,22-29]


    Paul said,James,Cephas and John who seemed to be pillars were in Jerusalem,and they confirmed that the gospel preached by Paul was the same preached by them.[Galatians 2:1-9]

    Pillars - Those bearing the weight or responsibility of maintaining the faith.

    The Churches formed,by the ministering of the apostles or those sent by them,are therefore the seed of the Church at Jerusalem.So too are those who brought the gospel to their locations after their experience on the day of Pentecost when the power of God came upon them in Jerusalem.

    N.B.It is the woman who went into the wilderness to escape from the face of the serpent.Although both the woman and her seed are persecuted,it is not the seed that is said to be in the wilderness for 1260 days, but the woman ie the Church at Jerusalem, from which the seed came.

    When did this occur in history and can/should a spiritual interpretation be applied to the wilderness situation?

    Elijah also had to flee in the wilderness as the threat of persecution was told to him.He was preserved by God also,both by temporal food and,spiritually by the word of God.[See,I Kings 17:1-16;I Kings 19:1-18]

    The Psalmist also expressed a desire to escape from trouble by fleeing into the wilderness.[Psalm 55:3-8]


    So it was for the Church at Jerusalem,that as trouble came in the form of Rome's attack on Jerusalem,they fled from the city to a remote desert community called Pella.This was done shortly before the attack and destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.The Church had followed the Lord's instruction.[Luke 21:20-22]The leader,Simeon,returned the Church to Jerusalem shortly after the Roman conquest of Masada in 73AD.This time period is able to accomodate the 1260 days of Revelation 12.This was not the first time that the people of God had been delivered from their enemies as they were carried into the wilderness.[Exodus 19:1-4]


    This also was the general fate of Churches in many other areas,in that,as persecution came their way,they fled to the mountains and less populated areas of the Roman empire.


    Just as in Elijah's time,when the true people of God were in hiding and the ruling authorities(Ahab,Jezebel) had perverted God's way,so it was in that time.The ruling authorities had claimed to be Christians but had perverted the gospel.They were the most prominent persons and they had control over state assets and the Church in Rome even claimed rulership over all other Churches.Persons who did not conform to their way were persecuted.


    The history of the true Church is not easily put together as most of their records were destroyed by their persecutors and it is the records of the enemies which give us information about them.One clear identifying feature must be as is stated in the chapter we are studying,for the remnant of her seed:


    "....keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."[Revelation 12:17]


    As the flood of persecution came,the earth helped the woman.[Jeremiah 6:6,7;Psalm 69:1,14,15;Isaiah 59:19]The earth is symbolic of people,as the word is sometimes used to refer to man in general and man is said to be of the earth.[I Corinthians 15:46-49;Luke 18:8;Deuteronomy 32:1;I Kings 2:2]Hence people other than the true Church faced or encountered this persecution instead of the true people of God.They swallowed up or bore this persecution while the true Church fled to their hiding place.Being of the earth,in contrast to the sea,which depicts strife,showed that these people gave little or no opposition to the persecuting forces.This occurred as Jerusalem was invaded by the Romans and many inhabitants of Jerusalem were killed.Also in other areas of the Roman empire many persons who claimed to be Christians bore the punishment meant for God's true Church.This occurred especially as the Roman brand of Christianity attempted to destroy all who opposed it.Many killed during the inquisitions and as the reformation movement was attacked,did not match up with the identifying features of God's true people even though they were among those who opposed Rome and they claimed to be Christians.[Revelation 12:17]


    Although the serpent sought to destroy God's true Church by the flood of persecution,the true Church survived although many were killed during the persecutions upon the seed.[Revelation 12:11,17]While the serpent continues to persecute the people of God,they continue to:


    "...keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."[Revelation 12:17]




    safswan.

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