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Thread: who is that Woman in the wilderness?

  1. #46
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    Re: who is that Woman in the wilderness?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shimatoree66 View Post
    Just wondering, RandyK, how do you define National Israel? I realize it may seem a silly question, but I was in a conversation a few years back that really altered my thinking.

    When I was asked that question, I answered that I thought National Israel consisted of all of those who trace back to one of the 12 tribes. I was shown that it's most likely that everyone alive today would trace back to at least one of the 12 tribes if not most or all of them.

    That sounded crazy to me until I was shown the math. The lady that showed this to me explained it this way...

    If we use the extremely conservative figure of 40 years for a generation, we've had 50 generations since the times of Jesus and then approx another 20 since the fall of the Northern kingdom. The first generation line back we all have 2 (Mom and Dad), then 4 the second line back, then 8 etc. So if we take 2 to the 50th power (just to get us back to the times of Jesus), we would have 1.2 quadrillion great, great, great etc. grandparents on that 50th line. Obviously, there would have to be a lot of commonality among that 1.2 quadrillion as there was nowhere near that many people to trace back to. If you go back to the scattering of the Northern Kingdom into the nations, that number gets into the quintrillions... ridiculous

    Anyway, the point she was making is that we tend to have an extremely narrow view of genealogy, when the true scope is the extreme opposite of our narrow view. In fact, at the time when Paul told Timothy to avoid endless genealogies it was already a mathematical likelihood that all those living at that time traced back to at least one of the 12 tribes due to the scattered Northern Kingdom some 20-30 generations earlier (30 being based on a more reasonable 25 year generation).
    I could be wrong, but my 1st thought is, we're not talking about that many people! We're talking about a sequence of doubling every 40 years. If we do that every 50 years, by the time we've reached 20 years we're already at a million people.

    But the reality is that these do not represent a million *people*with completely different DNA samples. For example, if an island nation is largely insulated from the world, they would be doubling their father's and mother's DNA that draws upon the same DNA group, rather than including new DNA groups. This extremely limits the inclusion of new DNA application in this group from the outside world!

    There is no doubt that there is "Hebrew DNA" in very large numbers of people, if the smallest sample is involved. However, I don't think this is what God meant when He promised Abraham his own "descendants." This was a specific nation, peopled by his descendants.

    So you need 2 things: 1) his physical descendants, with his DNA, and 2) his ethnicity grouped into a nation, ie Israel. What we require, then, are the Jewish People in the nation of Israel.

    I don't believe God ever meant Israel to be exalted for all time among the nations! Rather, their initial exaltation was to model for all nations the importance of a nation complying with God's Law. Since Christ preached his gospel to the nations all nations have the opportunity of applying Christ's Law to their own respective nation. All nations, therefore, have an opportunity to be a "chosen nation," as Israel was in a time when the rest of the world was pagan.

  2. #47
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    Re: who is that Woman in the wilderness?

    Quote Originally Posted by safswan View Post
    The feature which most assuredly points to the identity of the woman,clothed with the sun,is her bringing forth of a man child to rule all nations with a rod of iron.This child was also caught up to the throne of God.[Revelation 12:5]

    The scriptures show that this is a reference to the Lord Jesus.[See;Revelation 19:11-15;John 1:1,14;Psalm 2:7-9;Acts 13;33]...

    ...The passage shows however that all who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ are the seed of the woman.The birth and bringing forth of seed is therefore not a reference to a natural birth but to a spiritual one.The woman therefore is the one from whom the Lord Jesus and his original disciples came and whom is the pattern or mother for all who came after and followed in their footsteps.The seed therefore refers to Christians ie.those who have accepted Christ as saviour.(Have the testimony of Jesus)...

    ...The stars in the crown represent people and refer either to the twelve tribes of Israel or the twelve apostles even as stones in a crown also symbolized people.[Deuteronomy 1:10;Zechariah 9:16]

    ...The dragon is clearly explained to be the devil or satan.However it was not a spirit which actually carried out the persecution of the woman,nor which tried to devour the man child when it was born.These actions were carried out by Roman approved rulers.[Revelation 12:4,13,17]...

    ...This may be an area of dispute and controversy,as some say the 1260 days represent 1260 years and run from the council of Nicea(325AD),until the middle ages,about 1585.Others say this time period runs from 538AD,when the bishop of Rome was exalted, to,1798AD,when the bishop of Rome was taken prisoner by the French army.Others believe this is something which will occur in the future....
    ...It is the woman who went into the wilderness to escape from the face of the serpent.Although both the woman and her seed are persecuted,it is not the seed that is said to be in the wilderness for 1260 days, but the woman ie the Church at Jerusalem, from which the seed came....

    ...So it was for the Church at Jerusalem,that as trouble came in the form of Rome's attack on Jerusalem,they fled from the city to a remote desert community called Pella.This was done shortly before the attack and destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.The Church had followed the Lord's instruction.[Luke 21:20-22]The leader,Simeon,returned the Church to Jerusalem shortly after the Roman conquest of Masada in 73AD.This time period is able to accomodate the 1260 days of Revelation 12...

    ...As the flood of persecution came,the earth helped the woman.[Jeremiah 6:6,7;Psalm 69:1,14,15;Isaiah 59:19]The earth is symbolic of people,as the word is sometimes used to refer to man in general and man is said to be of the earth.[I Corinthians 15:46-49;Luke 18:8;Deuteronomy 32:1;I Kings 2:2]Hence people other than the true Church faced or encountered this persecution instead of the true people of God.
    We have some commonalities in our views. I believe the 12 stars of the Woman represent the 12 tribes of Israel. She was the Mother of our faith, both Jewish and non-Jewish. She gave birth to the man-child, who was Jesus. The children of the Woman are Christians. And the Dragon is Satan. We seem to agree on much of this.

    However, I see the 3.5 years as a special reference back to Dan 7, where the "time, times, and half a time" initially appear in the Bible. It is the time that Antichrist reigns and persecutes God's People, which we know is the Church, both Jewish and non-Jewish. This is not, however, to b e confused with a similar period of time associated with Antiochus 4, who reigned for 1290 days. The 3.5 years mentioned in Revelation is 1260 days, 42months, and 3.5 years. This draws upon the reign of Antichrist in Dan 7, I believe.

    So I believe the 3.5 years is reflecting upon a future time, when the Beast Empire of Antichrist reigns. I think it interesting that you relate the Dragon to the Roman Empire, which was the 4th Beast of Dan 7! I agree with this, except I believe the Roman Empire extends, mysteriously, beyond the reach of ancient Rome. It extends all the way until the end of the age, according to Dan 7.

    So the Dragon appears to be similar to the Beast, and perhaps even synonymous with the Beast of the Roman Empire. But inasmuch as this Beast is described as a "dragon," it eerily relates to Satan, who is the "Serpent." It is, in fact, a monstrously-sized serpent! It is an Empire, I believe, completely empowered by Satan.

    And that also is what the endtime Roman Empire will be like. That Empire will be unlike the original Roman Empire in the sense that instead of consisting of only 2 legs, it will consist of 2 feet and 10 toes! It will be an Empire consisting of 10 nations and 7 leaders. And this will be in the modern world!

    So I believe the "children of the Woman" are Christians. As the Woman remains in the wilderness, so the Jewish Christians remain in isolation, awaiting Israel's final national salvation. Meanwhile, the other Christians in Europe are persecuted by the Antichrist. Israel remains unfulfilled as a nation until the Christian persecutions are ended.

    It may be that Satan persecutes the Jewish believers in a slightly different way than he persecutes other Christians. Satan is keeping Jewish believers from obtaining their promised Christian nation in Israel. And Satan is using the Antichrist to persecute other Christians in Europe.

    Just my thoughts... Thanks for yours!

  3. #48
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    Re: who is that Woman in the wilderness?

    Quote Originally Posted by safswan View Post
    The feature which most assuredly points to the identity of the woman,clothed with the sun,is her bringing forth of a man child to rule all nations with a rod of iron.This child was also caught up to the throne of God.[Revelation 12:5]

    The scriptures show that this is a reference to the Lord Jesus.[See;Revelation 19:11-15;John 1:1,14;Psalm 2:7-9;Acts 13;33]...

    ...The passage shows however that all who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ are the seed of the woman.The birth and bringing forth of seed is therefore not a reference to a natural birth but to a spiritual one.The woman therefore is the one from whom the Lord Jesus and his original disciples came and whom is the pattern or mother for all who came after and followed in their footsteps.The seed therefore refers to Christians ie.those who have accepted Christ as saviour.(Have the testimony of Jesus)...

    ...The stars in the crown represent people and refer either to the twelve tribes of Israel or the twelve apostles even as stones in a crown also symbolized people.[Deuteronomy 1:10;Zechariah 9:16]

    ...The dragon is clearly explained to be the devil or satan.However it was not a spirit which actually carried out the persecution of the woman,nor which tried to devour the man child when it was born.These actions were carried out by Roman approved rulers.[Revelation 12:4,13,17]...

    ...This may be an area of dispute and controversy,as some say the 1260 days represent 1260 years and run from the council of Nicea(325AD),until the middle ages,about 1585.Others say this time period runs from 538AD,when the bishop of Rome was exalted, to,1798AD,when the bishop of Rome was taken prisoner by the French army.Others believe this is something which will occur in the future....
    ...It is the woman who went into the wilderness to escape from the face of the serpent.Although both the woman and her seed are persecuted,it is not the seed that is said to be in the wilderness for 1260 days, but the woman ie the Church at Jerusalem, from which the seed came....

    ...So it was for the Church at Jerusalem,that as trouble came in the form of Rome's attack on Jerusalem,they fled from the city to a remote desert community called Pella.This was done shortly before the attack and destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD.The Church had followed the Lord's instruction.[Luke 21:20-22]The leader,Simeon,returned the Church to Jerusalem shortly after the Roman conquest of Masada in 73AD.This time period is able to accomodate the 1260 days of Revelation 12...

    ...As the flood of persecution came,the earth helped the woman.[Jeremiah 6:6,7;Psalm 69:1,14,15;Isaiah 59:19]The earth is symbolic of people,as the word is sometimes used to refer to man in general and man is said to be of the earth.[I Corinthians 15:46-49;Luke 18:8;Deuteronomy 32:1;I Kings 2:2]Hence people other than the true Church faced or encountered this persecution instead of the true people of God.
    We have some commonalities in our views. I believe the 12 stars of the Woman represent the 12 tribes of Israel. She was the Mother of our faith, both Jewish and non-Jewish. She gave birth to the man-child, who was Jesus. The children of the Woman are Christians. And the Dragon is Satan. We seem to agree on much of this.

    However, I see the 3.5 years as a special reference back to Dan 7, where the "time, times, and half a time" initially appear in the Bible. It is the time that Antichrist reigns and persecutes God's People, which we know is the Church, both Jewish and non-Jewish. This is not, however, to b e confused with a similar period of time associated with Antiochus 4, who reigned for 1290 days. The 3.5 years mentioned in Revelation is 1260 days, 42months, and 3.5 years. This draws upon the reign of Antichrist in Dan 7, I believe.

    So I believe the 3.5 years is reflecting upon a future time, when the Beast Empire of Antichrist reigns. I think it interesting that you relate the Dragon to the Roman Empire, which was the 4th Beast of Dan 7! I agree with this, except I believe the Roman Empire extends, mysteriously, beyond the reach of ancient Rome. It extends all the way until the end of the age, according to Dan 7.

    So the Dragon appears to be similar to the Beast, and perhaps even synonymous with the Beast of the Roman Empire. But inasmuch as this Beast is described as a "dragon," it eerily relates to Satan, who is the "Serpent." It is, in fact, a monstrously-sized serpent! It is an Empire, I believe, completely empowered by Satan.

    And that also is what the endtime Roman Empire will be like. That Empire will be unlike the original Roman Empire in the sense that instead of consisting of only 2 legs, it will consist of 2 feet and 10 toes! It will be an Empire consisting of 10 nations and 7 leaders. And this will be in the modern world!

    So I believe the "children of the Woman" are Christians. As the Woman remains in the wilderness, so the Jewish Christians remain in isolation, awaiting Israel's final national salvation. Meanwhile, the other Christians in Europe are persecuted by the Antichrist. Israel remains unfulfilled as a nation until the Christian persecutions are ended.

    It may be that Satan persecutes the Jewish believers in a slightly different way than he persecutes other Christians. Satan is keeping Jewish believers from obtaining their promised Christian nation in Israel. And Satan is using the Antichrist to persecute other Christians in Europe.

    Just my thoughts... Thanks for yours!

  4. #49
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    Re: who is that Woman in the wilderness?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeffweeder View Post
    Hi Randy.
    I would say Israel's purpose was to bring forth Messiah. As rev 12 suggests , she brings forth the Man child, and from his chosen ones the nations become one fold along with believing Israel. All are born again into one Holy Nation while the unbelieving of those nations , including Israel perish.
    What do you think about Zechariah 14 which refers to the surviving nations after the day of the Lord? These nations don't seem saved, because they are under the Lord's discipline.

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