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Thread: What time of day was Jesus's death, burial, resurrection

  1. #61

    Re: What time of day was Jesus's death, burial, resurrection

    Quote Originally Posted by Nhosrebe View Post
    Mark 11:11 in a single 'uncertain' variant reading marginally references 'opsia' Noun "evening" for 'opse' Adverb "late" the reading of the bulk of manuscripts.

    "Late" – 'opse' – "late (day-time)" in Mark 11:11 —opposite of "in the (daylight) morning" – 'tehi epaurion' in verse 12.

    "Late" – 'opse' – "late (day-time)" in Mark 11:11 —opposite of "early" - 'prohï' in Matthew 21:18.

    “Late” – ‘opse’ – “late (day-time)” in Mark 11:11 – “in the day” – ‘en tehi hehmerai’ / ‘kath’ hehmeran’ in Luke 19:42,47 = “in the days” – ‘tas hehmeras’ in 21:37 —opposite of “at night” – ‘tas nuktas’ in 21:37 and “in the morning” – ‘ohrthrinos’ in 38.

    ‘Young's Literal Translation’ is wrong.
    Thanks for your information about the manuscript variants. Let's look at the NASB instead then. The word 'opse' (G3796) can mean evening too. It is used in three other places in the Bible, two of which are translated "evening".

    Matthew 28:1 NASB Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave.
    Mark 11:11 NASB Jesus entered Jerusalem and came into the temple; and after looking around at everything, He left for Bethany with the twelve, since it was already late.
    Mark 11:19 NASB When evening came, they would go out of the city.
    Mark 13:35 NASB “Therefore, be on the alert—for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning—

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    Re: What time of day was Jesus's death, burial, resurrection

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    Well you are starting on Thursday evening when it turns to Friday. Just like Sunday starts Saturday evening and goes from there yes? It allows for there being several hours of Sunday being the third day.
    But arose before daylight on Sunday.....so never a third "day" starting from Friday.

    I still have not seen a Thursday Passover date. Did you find a link for that?
    I have this site......who knows if accurate. Supposed to use info from the Navy. The claim is April 6th 30AD Thursday (Wednesday night) was Passover. Note he does say Jesus was crucified on Thursday which not sure I agree with.

    Passover Crucifixion Dates
    (26-34AD)
    By Pastor G. Reckart

    The information provided herein is taken from the US Navy Astronomical Department calculations. The times given are Jerusalem time. There is an attempt to combine both the Jewish and Julian calendars. Some corrections have been made to this chart. Remember the Julian day is to midnight. The Jewish calendar 14th day of Abib ends at sundown not at midnight. The Passover and first day of Unleavened Bread begins at sundown Wednesday Abib 14 which begins Abib 15.

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    Re: What time of day was Jesus's death, burial, resurrection

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    Some "date calculators" used to reproduce calendars of old, especially of the 1st century and before, use varying rules for determining when the year begins. The information that Ross 3421 provided, obviously do not agree with the rules used in modern Jewish calendars [because of the determined dates of Passover falling on forbidden dates.] It is not known whether these dechiyot rules of postponement were being used in the time of Christ. My guess would be yes they were because of Jesus's condemnation of pharisee-ical traditions above what is written in God's word.

    Blessings
    The PuP
    Interesting info on the topic

    Brought to you under the direction of The Edmond J Safra Synagogue

    Holidays Do Not Fall Out On Particular Days Of The Week

    There is a principle regarding the Jewish calendar system that says, "Lo Adu Rosh," meaning, the first day of Rosh Hashanah cannot fall on Sunday, Wednesday or Friday. Likewise, there is a principle known as "Lo Badu Pesach," which means that the first day of Pesach cannot fall on Monday, Wednesday or Friday. The reason why the Rabbis ordained that Pesach cannot fall on these days is because if Pesach would fall on Monday, Wednesday or Friday, then the first day of Rosh Hashanah would fall on Sunday, Wednesday or Friday. And the Rabbis wanted to prevent these scenarios because of their ramifications regarding Yom Kippur: if the first day of Rosh Hashanah falls on Wednesday, then Yom Kippur falls on Friday, and if Rosh Hashanah falls on Friday, then Yom Kippur falls on Sunday. Either situation – where Yom Kippur falls on Friday or Sunday – would pose considerable difficulty, and the Rabbis therefore arranged the calendar in such a way that this could never happen.

    It should be noted that these rules took effect only when the Rabbis established the fixed calendar system that we use today. In ancient times, however, when new months were declared based upon testimony to the sighting of the new moon, the Rabbis allowed Pesach to fall on Monday, Wednesday or Friday. Under this system, it was possible for the Rabbis to adjust the Rosh Chodesh declaration in the months prior to Rosh Hashanah as necessary to ensure that it would not fall on Sunday, Wednesday or Friday; they therefore had no need to prevent Pesach from beginning on a Monday, Wednesday or Friday. Only once the fixed calendar system came into use was it necessary to ensure that Pesach would not begin on these days.

    This point is made by Rashi in his commentary to Masechet Pesachim (58). The Gemara records a Berayta stating that when Erev Pesach fell on Shabbat, the daily Tamid offering was brought in the Temple at the same time in the afternoon as it was "on Monday," meaning, on a normal day. Rashi raised the question of why the Berayta selected specifically Monday as an example of a normal day, rather than Sunday, and he brings an explanation that Erev Pesach cannot ever occur on Sunday, because the first day of Pesach cannot fall on Monday. But Rashi rejects this explanation, noting that the Berayta obviously refers to the period when the Temple stood, during which the first day of Pesach could, indeed, fall on Monday. Rashi therefore concludes that the Berayta chose Monday as an arbitrary example, without any particular reason.

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    Re: What time of day was Jesus's death, burial, resurrection

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Passover Crucifixion Dates
    (26-34AD)
    By Pastor G. Reckart

    The information provided herein is taken from the US Navy Astronomical Department calculations. The times given are Jerusalem time. There is an attempt to combine both the Jewish and Julian calendars. Some corrections have been made to this chart. Remember the Julian day is to midnight. The Jewish calendar 14th day of Abib ends at sundown not at midnight. The Passover and first day of Unleavened Bread begins at sundown Wednesday Abib 14 which begins Abib 15.
    Well that other link I posted on point 6 they say it couldn't have happened in 30AD because:
    There is not enough time between the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar--A.D. 29--and the next year's Passover to accomodate a ministry of at least two years.

    They were taking into account the years of ministry of Jesus as to why it wouldn't fit.
    I have this site......who knows if accurate. Supposed to use info from the Navy. The claim is April 6th 30AD Thursday (Wednesday night) was Passover. Note he does say Jesus was crucified on Thursday which not sure I agree with.

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    Re: What time of day was Jesus's death, burial, resurrection

    Sorry it won't let me edit that post! I got part of what you said that should have been at the top of the post... hope you can figure it out.. haha wonder if they will get all the tools fixed for this and allow you to edit a post.

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    Re: What time of day was Jesus's death, burial, resurrection

    Look at this link for dates...it is sure different:

    http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/passover_dates.htm

  7. #67

    Re: What time of day was Jesus's death, burial, resurrection

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    Thanks for your information about the manuscript variants. Let's look at the NASB instead then. The word 'opse' (G3796) can mean evening too. It is used in three other places in the Bible, two of which are translated "evening".

    Matthew 28:1 NASB Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave.
    Mark 11:11 NASB Jesus entered Jerusalem and came into the temple; and after looking around at everything, He left for Bethany with the twelve, since it was already late.
    Mark 11:19 NASB When evening came, they would go out of the city.
    Mark 13:35 NASB “Therefore, be on the alert—for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning—
    Re:
    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    The word 'opse' (G3796) can mean evening too.
    ‘Strongs’ is weak and incorrect this time. (And if I’m not mistaken, like in other similar cases, contradicts the original manual edition.)

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    It is used in three other places in the Bible, two of which are translated "evening".
    “‘It…’” ‘opse’ or ‘opsia’? Not ‘opse’; ‘opse’ never meant ‘evening’, ever, only, ‘late’—‘since Homer’. Bauer.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    Matthew 28:1 NASB Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave.


    ‘opse’ – “late on” as Adverb, RSV; “in the end of” in Ablative Case, KJV. NEVER (before the 20th century) ‘after’ —NASB with ‘after’ is corrupt for no other reason than to get a Sunday Resurrection.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    Mark 11:11 NASB Jesus entered Jerusalem and came into the temple; and after looking around at everything, He left for Bethany with the twelve, since it was already late.
    Correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    Mark 11:19 NASB When evening came, they would go out of the city.
    KJV has ‘even’ archaic English for “late”, but not for ‘evening’ as according to the amateurish, faulty, NASB. ‘Opse’ –“late (daylight) in Mark 11:19 stands in juxtaposition to its most normal antonym, “early (daylight)” – ‘prohï’ in verse 20.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    Mark 13:35 NASB “Therefore, be on the alert—for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning—
    “Be vigilant therefore, because you don’t know when the owner of the house will come home, late in the day (‘opse’), or midnight, or when the rooster crows before sunrise, or ‘prohï’ in the early (daylight).” Two parts of the daylight, “late” – ‘opse’ and “early” – ‘prohï’; and two parts of night, early night till “midnight” – ‘mesonuktion’ and late night till “the rooster crows” before sunrise, ‘alektorophohnias’.

    No problem… ‘opse’ = “late” as always.

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    Re: What time of day was Jesus's death, burial, resurrection

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    Well that other link I posted on point 6 they say it couldn't have happened in 30AD because:
    There is not enough time between the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar--A.D. 29--and the next year's Passover to accomodate a ministry of at least two years.
    There is a claim that Caesar co-reigned for two years starting in 12AD which starting from that point and not 14AD in which he reign solely then there is enough time.

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    Re: What time of day was Jesus's death, burial, resurrection

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    Look at this link for dates...it is sure different:

    http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/passover_dates.htm
    yea I shall that one also.......

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    Re: What time of day was Jesus's death, burial, resurrection

    Quote Originally Posted by Nhosrebe View Post
    "'Based on how we'd view it:'" which exactly is the 'dynamic equivalent' and wrong approach
    You'd still need to explain the issue for people who consider a day beginning at midnight rather than sunset.
    「耶和華聖潔無比,獨一無二,沒有磐石像我們的上帝。
    撒母耳記上 (1 Samuel) 2:2

  11. #71

    Re: What time of day was Jesus's death, burial, resurrection

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    You'd still need to explain the issue for people who consider a day beginning at midnight rather than sunset.
    If with 'issue' you mean from when to when is the Bible day, the Bible explains itself. In the Scriptures days are sunset days, except in Exodus where before the exodus, days are distinguishable as sunrise days while after the exodus they are distinguishable as sunset days. The Romans have the midnight day cycle. The New Testament does not assume any midnight to midnight days except John who still regarded days the Jewish way from sunset to sunset but speaks of the hours of days like the Romans did, John 19:14 "the sixth hour" for example.

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    Re: What time of day was Jesus's death, burial, resurrection

    Two questions for those on this thread.

    1. Is the day of preparation the day prior to the Passover day?

    My answer currently is yes. It appears in ancient times no work could be done on Passover so they had to prepare the meal the day prior. However investigating this I cannot get full agreement.

    2. Was the Passover Lamb slain at the start of Passover on the evening prior?

    My answer to this currently is yes as well. Though it appears that some think it is just prior sundown on Passover day.

    Now the reason I ask these questions is that if both are yes then Christ was not crucified on Passover but the day prior on Preparation day. Hence his blood had to be shed prior to the start of Passover evening thus being killed prior to Passover.

    Note scripture indicates that Jesus died at 3pm. But was his blood not shed until later, not until sunset? This would then parallel with the tradition of lambs blood being shed at sunset the start of Passover.

    Thus this is how I see the timing of events (note subject to change of course)

    Wednesday - Day of Preparation

    Tuesday evening is the Last Supper, Wednesday Christ dies 3pm (blood shed later)

    Thursday - Passover

    Christ body is retrieved and buried Thursday morning before sunrise

    Sunday - Resurrection

    Christ arises from grave Sunday morning before sunrise


    Now this fulfills without question the following.

    1. That he would be in the heart of the earth a full three days and nights. Note I take the heart of the earth starting with his burial not death.

    2. That he will rise on the third (full) day. If he dies on Thursday or later this is not fulfilled per the scripture below as third had not yet come.

    Gen 1
    And the evening and the morning were the third day.

    In addition, I believe the third day starts when he was buried.

    I cor 15:4
    And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


    Jesus is crucified the day before Passover.

  13. #73

    Re: What time of day was Jesus's death, burial, resurrection

    Quote Originally Posted by Nhosrebe View Post
    Re:
    ‘Strongs’ is weak and incorrect this time. (And if I’m not mistaken, like in other similar cases, contradicts the original manual edition.)
    I quoted the Strong's number G3796 because it is easier to search that way. I was not referring to the Strong's definition of opse.

    “‘It…’” ‘opse’ or ‘opsia’? Not ‘opse’; ‘opse’ never meant ‘evening’, ever, only, ‘late’—‘since Homer’. Bauer.
    We already agree that opsia means evening. When I said "It...", I am talking about opse. There are only 4 times when it is used in the New Testament.

    Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament words:

    Even (Noun), Evening, Eventide:

    "long after, late, late in the day, at evening" (in contrast to proi, "early," e.g., Mat 20:1), is used practically as a noun in Mar 11:11, lit., "the hour being at eventide;" Mar 11:19; 13:35; in Mat 28:1 it is rendered "late on," RV, for AV, "in the end of." Here, however, the meaning seems to be "after," a sense in which the word was used by late Greek writers.
    See LATE. In the Sept., Gen 24:11; Exd 30:8; Jer 2:23; Isa 5:11.
    Note: In Luk 12:38 some mss. have the adjective hesperinos, "of the evening" (see A, No. 1), lit., "in the evening watch."


    New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

    Definition
    after a long time, long after, late
    late in the day, i.e. at evening
    the sabbath having just passed, after the sabbath
    at the early dawn of the first day of the week



    ‘opse’ – “late on” as Adverb, RSV; “in the end of” in Ablative Case, KJV. NEVER (before the 20th century) ‘after’ —NASB with ‘after’ is corrupt for no other reason than to get a Sunday Resurrection.
    Consider two older translations.

    Matthew 28:1 Darby Now late on sabbath, as it was the dusk of the next day after sabbath, came Mary of Magdala and the other Mary to look at the sepulchre.
    Matthew 28:1 KJV In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.


    Note that late on the sabbath makes no sense if it was at dawn!

    Correct.
    I agree that late can be correct, but the whole point is whether late in Mark 11:11 can also mean evening.

    KJV has ‘even’ archaic English for “late”, but not for ‘evening’ as according to the amateurish, faulty, NASB. ‘Opse’ –“late (daylight) in Mark 11:19 stands in juxtaposition to its most normal antonym, “early (daylight)” – ‘prohï’ in verse 20.
    I don't know why you are calling the NASB amateurish. Late is not wrong. But late can include evening, especially if we use a non-Jewish way of reckoning days (possible if Mark was written to a non-Jewish audience).

    “Be vigilant therefore, because you don’t know when the owner of the house will come home, late in the day (‘opse’), or midnight, or when the rooster crows before sunrise, or ‘prohï’ in the early (daylight).” Two parts of the daylight, “late” – ‘opse’ and “early” – ‘prohï’; and two parts of night, early night till “midnight” – ‘mesonuktion’ and late night till “the rooster crows” before sunrise, ‘alektorophohnias’.

    No problem… ‘opse’ = “late” as always.
    If we consider the Jewish way of counting days as in Genesis 1, Jesus could be starting at evening and ending at morning in Mark 13:35.

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    Re: What time of day was Jesus's death, burial, resurrection

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Two questions for those on this thread.

    1. Is the day of preparation the day prior to the Passover day?

    My answer currently is yes. It appears in ancient times no work could be done on Passover so they had to prepare the meal the day prior. However investigating this I cannot get full agreement.

    2. Was the Passover Lamb slain at the start of Passover on the evening prior?

    My answer to this currently is yes as well. Though it appears that some think it is just prior sundown on Passover day.

    Now the reason I ask these questions is that if both are yes then Christ was not crucified on Passover but the day prior on Preparation day. Hence his blood had to be shed prior to the start of Passover evening thus being killed prior to Passover.

    Note scripture indicates that Jesus died at 3pm. But was his blood not shed until later, not until sunset? This would then parallel with the tradition of lambs blood being shed at sunset the start of Passover.

    Thus this is how I see the timing of events (note subject to change of course)

    Wednesday - Day of Preparation

    Tuesday evening is the Last Supper, Wednesday Christ dies 3pm (blood shed later)

    Thursday - Passover

    Christ body is retrieved and buried Thursday morning before sunrise

    Sunday - Resurrection

    Christ arises from grave Sunday morning before sunrise


    Now this fulfills without question the following.

    1. That he would be in the heart of the earth a full three days and nights. Note I take the heart of the earth starting with his burial not death.

    2. That he will rise on the third (full) day. If he dies on Thursday or later this is not fulfilled per the scripture below as third had not yet come.

    Gen 1
    And the evening and the morning were the third day.

    In addition, I believe the third day starts when he was buried.

    I cor 15:4
    And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


    Jesus is crucified the day before Passover.
    The more I read about it the more you can understand why no one knows, and I don't know we will ever know till we are with Jesus. From sites that even say that the Sadducees and the Pharisees did things different!! Here is one quote:
    From ancient Jewish sources, we know that the Sadducees and the Samaritans (on Mount Gerizim) sacrificed their lambs on Aviv 13/14, 24-hours before the Pharisees on Aviv 14/15.

    From what I understand the Sadducees were in control of the temple... yet another site said that on the day of Passover was when the sacrifices began at 3pm which would match when the Lord died.

    I just get more confused... and with the book of John 19 mentioning preparation day so many times...it is more confusing.

  15. #75

    Re: What time of day was Jesus's death, burial, resurrection

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    The more I read about it the more you can understand why no one knows, and I don't know we will ever know till we are with Jesus. From sites that even say that the Sadducees and the Pharisees did things different!! Here is one quote:
    From ancient Jewish sources, we know that the Sadducees and the Samaritans (on Mount Gerizim) sacrificed their lambs on Aviv 13/14, 24-hours before the Pharisees on Aviv 14/15.

    From what I understand the Sadducees were in control of the temple... yet another site said that on the day of Passover was when the sacrifices began at 3pm which would match when the Lord died.

    I just get more confused... and with the book of John 19 mentioning preparation day so many times...it is more confusing.
    Patience brother, patience is the mother of wisdom, I once heard someone say. That someone was a grey old man who should have been retired but still put in a whole days' hard labour without complaint, every day.

    Hang on, please, for Jesus' sake and for his Gospel, read 'The Heart of the Gospel'. Order here, for free, < biblestudents at imaginet dot co dot za >.

    Read EVERY relevant Scripture in the last chapters of the four Gospels, in textual sequence put together in chronological and logical, historical order, word for word, verse by verse, context to context, using the King James Version interlinear with the Greek, and every shadow of doubt about Christ's perfect fulfilment of the Passover of Yahweh's "three days thick darkness" is dispelled sola Scriptura as per the Article of the Christian Confession of Faith, I believe in Christ, who was crucified, who died and was buried, and who “ROSE from the dead according to the Scriptures THE THIRD DAY”!

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