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Thread: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

  1. #31
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    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Correct.



    That is great that you see alternative possibilities there. Yes context and interpretation of the previous verses determine who the "he" is in v27. History shows that a Jewish civil war ruined/corrupted the city and temple, then the Romans destroyed it quickly like a flood. This civil war madness among the Jewish leaders is something often missed when interpreting v26. In addition a coming prince is in both v25 and v26, and there is no reason to differentiate them, because the text does not hint at that.

    Thus I see 5 reasons why the "he" in v27 is Jesus. His kinsmen did actually ruin/corrupt(shachath) the temple, and he is the coming ruler so the "he" in v27 refers back to the ruler in v26. In verse 27 he did confirm the promise of v25 , and he did put an end to sacrifice, and this was 3.5 years after his coming/confirming.

    Was he associated with an abomination and did he come to his end? No that is for the future antichrist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    It is all about the translation (again), according to the Companion Bible it should be translated like this

    « And he hath strengthened a covenant with the many one week, and in the middle of the week he causeth sacrifice and oblation to cease, and in its stead the abomination that maketh desolate unto a full end, and that which is determined shall come pouring upon the causer of desolation ».

    Aristarkos
    This the way KJV describes it, albeit, in different words.

  2. #32
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    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    In Daniel 9:27, it is clearly stated that the last 'week' = 7 years, will be divided into 2 halves.
    At the start of the second half, sacrifices and offerings to God; in the Temple, will be stopped. This did not happen with the 2nd Temple until 70 AD, therefore this verse cannot apply to the Roman conquest of the Jews.

    It will apply when the leader of the One World Govt breaks the 7 year peace treaty with the new Christian nation of Beulah and he; then revealed as the Anti-Christ, will sit in the new Temple and declare himself to be god.
    Confirmed by Jesus; Matthew 24:15 and by Paul; 2 Thess 2:4

    In Daniel 9:27, it is clearly stated that the last 'week' = 7 years, will be divided into 2 halves.
    At the start of the second half, sacrifices and offerings to God; in the Temple, will be stopped. This did not happen with the 2nd Temple until 70 AD, therefore this verse cannot apply to the Roman conquest of the Jews.

    It will apply when the leader of the One World Govt breaks the 7 year peace treaty with the new Christian nation of Beulah and he; then revealed as the Anti-Christ, will sit in the new Temple and declare himself to be god.
    Confirmed by Jesus; Matthew 24:15 and by Paul; 2 Thess 2:4

  3. #33
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    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    Time, times and half a time [3.5] is a specific timescale dedicated to the Beast to run the earth before his capitulation at Armageddon. We find it in Dan 12:7; 7:25, Rev 12:24. Sometimes it is also called 42 months. Matt 24:15 and Dan 9:27 will be fulfilled in this timeline.
    A "time, times and half a time" was a repeating calendar formula in the original Hebrew Sabbatical year cycle. Just because it is mentioned in several scriptures does not mean that we have to assume they were all the same 3.5 year block. So, I stand by my belief that the 3.5 year period referenced in Daniel 9:27 is not the same timeline as the ones mentioned elsewhere.
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

  4. #34
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    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    We make the Cross the climax and so it was. But the covenant went through a 'confirming' process of 7 years.




    The latter is correct if you were to ask me. But admittedly, its a been translated both ways. Futurists like to quote Antichrist getting his just desserts. Historicists like to quote Jerusalem getting destroyed. When I get to heaven Im going to talk to Daniel about writing simple for dumb fellas like me.
    If it's one thing I learned on this Forum--it's that nobody here is dumb. These are all great debaters and learned people. We don't always know as much as we should, to be able to fully debate some subjects. But it's been a fun place for me (apart from a few major headaches).

    We should, however, show proper respect for the depth of material we're covering. It's ancient, and it involves an outdated culture. The fact that these things penetrate our minds today is nothing short of miraculous, and shows God's incredible powers of preservation, as well His skill at communication. We're being tested brother, to see how much "love" we put into our studies.

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    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    A "time, times and half a time" was a repeating calendar formula in the original Hebrew Sabbatical year cycle. Just because it is mentioned in several scriptures does not mean that we have to assume they were all the same 3.5 year block. So, I stand by my belief that the 3.5 year period referenced in Daniel 9:27 is not the same timeline as the ones mentioned elsewhere.
    That's my assumption too. I hate to sound like a parrot, but yes, we agree on this also. It is a misnomer to say that 3.5 years somewhere is 3.5 years elsewhere. That's just common sense. It does make sense to connect similar periods if there is a reason to connect them. This requires context.

    The context of one period is connected with Antiochus 4. The context of the "time, times and half a time" in Dan 7 is the reign of Antichrist. Therefore, when we read about the Antichrist in the book of Revelation, we know that the 3.5 year period there is also connected to Dan 7. We should not connect a similar time period, associated with Antiochus 4, to the Antichrist. They simply have similar periods of time associated with them. And I think this is deliberate, by God, to use Antiochus 4 as a prototype of the Antichrist.

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    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    My view is that the abomination was an 'overspreading' abomination which began in the middle of the seven (so, yes, it does relate), then lasted a further 40 years.

    As for the 'times, time and half a time' mentioned in Daniel 12 and referenced in Matt 24:15, it relates to Daniel 7:25, and should not be conflated (IMO) with Daniel 9:27.
    The abomination in Dan 9 is in context of the middle of a 7 year period, and the abomination in Dan 12 is a 1290 day (3.5 year) period. I see common sense in matching the two even if others fail to see that.

    Dan 12 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

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    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    This the way KJV describes it, albeit, in different words.
    Yes the reason most views go with the one character in Dan 9:27 is because the two most popular bibles KJV and NIV have one character, "he" throughout the verse. The NIV does however have the two character version in it's footnote as a viable alternative:
    he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And one who causes desolation will come upon the wing of the abominable temple

    Even though the KJV had one character, many subsequent versions deliberately chose to introduce two characters. FHG says the pronouns are largely irrelevant, but then why not leave them out if not needed? Yet the translators chose to clearly have two guys, not one.

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    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Yes the reason most views go with the one character in Dan 9:27 is because the two most popular bibles KJV and NIV have one character, "he" throughout the verse. The NIV does however have the two character version in it's footnote as a viable alternative:
    he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And one who causes desolation will come upon the wing of the abominable temple

    Even though the KJV had one character, many subsequent versions deliberately chose to introduce two characters. FHG says the pronouns are largely irrelevant, but then why not leave them out if not needed? Yet the translators chose to clearly have two guys, not one.
    I don't know Hebrew but I'm guessing it's because of an ambiguity associated with using pronouns, with respect to he, she or it. I don't believe the Hebrew and the English are equivalent in this regard. Since English translators do know Hebrew, we can reliably expect that a person or persons are directing these actions, the covenant and the desolation. However, I'm not sure if this requires a he, a she, or an it? As far as I know, a "he" could also be a "she. And an "it" could be a "he," or vice versa. And these actions may be done by either one or two persons!

  9. #39
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    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't know Hebrew but I'm guessing it's because of an ambiguity associated with using pronouns, with respect to he, she or it. I don't believe the Hebrew and the English are equivalent in this regard. Since English translators do know Hebrew, we can reliably expect that a person or persons are directing these actions, the covenant and the desolation. However, I'm not sure if this requires a he, a she, or an it? As far as I know, a "he" could also be a "she. And an "it" could be a "he," or vice versa. And these actions may be done by either one or two persons!
    Yes I agree with you, this ambiguity must pose a problem to translators. I am not saying that certain translations are wrong, I am just saying that taking into account the ambiguity; most translators see two characters. Therefore a view that incorporates that should be highly considered as an alternative to our previous view, provided it has it's own merits. ie it is time to stop and ponder a while instead of disregarding new ideas of v27 too rapidly.

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    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    That is great that you see alternative possibilities there. Yes context and interpretation of the previous verses determine who the "he" is in v27. History shows that a Jewish civil war ruined/corrupted the city and temple, then the Romans destroyed it quickly like a flood. This civil war madness among the Jewish leaders is something often missed when interpreting v26. In addition a coming prince is in both v25 and v26, and there is no reason to differentiate them, because the text does not hint at that.

    Thus I see 5 reasons why the "he" in v27 is Jesus. His kinsmen did actually ruin/corrupt(shachath) the temple, and he is the coming ruler so the "he" in v27 refers back to the ruler in v26. In verse 27 he did confirm the promise of v25 , and he did put an end to sacrifice, and this was 3.5 years after his coming/confirming.

    Was he associated with an abomination and did he come to his end? No that is for the future antichrist.
    The question though is why "one" is used in verse 27. The point is there is NO pronoun in use in the Hebrew. So some translators avoid a sentence structure which requires the pronoun in the English.
    Others follow the particular doctrine on the verse (which is what I see in the KJV).
    However others which try to be as open as possible, use the pronoun "one" which could be referring to the Abomination or to the "one" who causes the abomination, and it is then in OUR reading where we substitute the word "one" that is the issue.

    As for the He in verse 27 there are lots of reasons to KNOW it isn't Jesus, but I'll bow out of that part of the discussion as I feel that has been discussed enough, EXCEPT to note that pronouns follow the previous discussed person, which then points to the "prince" in verse 26.

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    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post

    As for the He in verse 27 there are lots of reasons to KNOW it isn't Jesus, but I'll bow out of that part of the discussion as I feel that has been discussed enough, EXCEPT to note that pronouns follow the previous discussed person, which then points to the "prince" in verse 26.
    The "coming ruler" (anointed one) of v25 should grammatically be the same as the coming ruler of v26, unless the text says ANOTHER coming ruler. But the text does not hint at a second ruler, they are by all normal use of language the SAME ruler.

    That anointed coming ruler is Jesus, and so the "he" in v27 points to Jesus.

  12. #42

    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    ^ unless you see verse 26 as presenting SEQUENTIAL things, as I put in my post #27; in that, the first "prince" is "cut off" (and have nothing, or, not for himself), and then the "destroy the city and the sanctuary" happens, and then after that is mentioned the "he" that points back to the last mentioned "prince THAT SHALL COME". (Seems to me this is how prophecy/prophetic scripture works, also.)

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    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    In Daniel 9:27, it is clearly stated that the last 'week' = 7 years, will be divided into 2 halves.
    At the start of the second half, sacrifices and offerings to God; in the Temple, will be stopped. This did not happen with the 2nd Temple until 70 AD, therefore this verse cannot apply to the Roman conquest of the Jews.

    It will apply when the leader of the One World Govt breaks the 7 year peace treaty with the new Christian nation of Beulah and he; then revealed as the Anti-Christ, will sit in the new Temple and declare himself to be god.
    Confirmed by Jesus; Matthew 24:15 and by Paul; 2 Thess 2:4
    Keraz, that is the standard way of looking at it, but outside of Daniel 9 the bible never hints at a 7 year period. OFTEN the bible mentions a final 3.5 year period. Daniel 7, Daniel 12 ,Rev 11, Rev 12, Rev 13. All these periods best fit into the final 3.5 years, rather than an earlier 3.5 year period.

    And if you think about it, why introduce a gap in the 490 year period unless necessary? Jesus was recognised as the "anointed one " by John the Baptist, and publicly acknowledged as the anointed one. Jesus even admitted it. He was also especially anointed by the Holy Spirit at that moment (River Jordan). this all shows that Jesus fulfilled the "coming of the anointed ruler" in year 483.

    Then in v27 (at year 483) someone will "confirm a promise". The coming of the anointed one in year 483 WAS the promise confirmed of v25. Jesus fulfilled a powerful promise in year 483, and died on the cross 3.5 years later, the final lamb sacrifice. These fulfilments are so powerful and significant to Daniel's concern for Israel and fit the wording and timing of the angel's timeline up until that point.

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    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    ^ unless you see verse 26 as presenting SEQUENTIAL things, as I put in my post #27; in that, the first "prince" is "cut off" (and have nothing, or, not for himself), and then the "destroy the city and the sanctuary" happens, and then after that is mentioned the "he" that points back to the last mentioned "prince THAT SHALL COME". (Seems to me this is how prophecy/prophetic scripture works, also.)
    Firstly think about this: There is a "PRINCE THAT SHALL COME" in v25, then a "PRINCE THAT SHALL COME" in v26. At what stage did it say "ANOTHER PRINCE THAT SHALL COME"? Grammatically it sounds like the same prince, unless you want your view on history to distort actual grammar.

    Secondly Daniel is praying for the future blessing of Israel. It is madness to think that a timeline focussed reply would leave the crucifixion out of that timeline. That was the most significant event in all of mankind. You seem to believe it occurs somewhere outside the 490 year period, without even getting a mention on the timeline.

  15. #45

    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    I was just getting ready to address your previous post (to Keraz) before you posted a reply to me, so I will cover that first. I was getting ready to post this:

    [quoting... with some caveats]

    "Here are the facts of the matter. Only the year 32 A.D fits the bill. Timespans terminating in 30 A.D., 31 A.D., 33 A.D. or 34 A.D. just won’t cut it. Timespans ending in 31 A.D. and 33 A.D. land in Nisan months that occur too early in the year to fit the 173,880 days. And these timelines actually begin in embolismal years. So they start late. These make for Nisan to Nisan timelines that are too short. They are not long enough to fit in the required number of days for the 69 weeks(sevens) of years. Timespans other than the timespan which terminates in 32 A.D. simply cannot accommodate this long 173,880 day period which overflows 25 days beyond the 476 years.

    "We can see that only the timespan #2, beginning in the year 445 B.C. and terminating in 32 A.D. will fit. This is the timespan advanced by Sir Robert Anderson in his classic work, ‘The Coming Prince’. Only this timeline will succeed in connecting into two Nisan moons, the beginning Nisan moon being the one for Nehemiah and the ending Nisan moon being the one for the Passover of our Lord’s crucifixion."

    --Gavin Finley M.D. , http:/ /oneyahweh.com/w/index.php/2009/03/12/32-a-d-was-the-crucifixion-year/ ...[endtime pilgrim; Caveat: this is not an endorsement of all of his writings]


    [and]

    "69 weeks connect the Nisan moon of Nehemiah to the Nisan moon of Palm Sunday and the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ. No one has presented a timeline that fits the facts so well and with a timeline fitting the dates involved with such fine accuracy."

    --Endtime Pilgrim - http:/ /endtimepilgrim.org/70wks8.htm

    [caveat--this is not to say I agree with everything at this site]


    [and]

    ""And 33 A.D. was not the year of the passion of Jesus. This long and lanky time span of 476 solar years and those extra 25 days does not connect into both Nisan moons for the years in question. Clearly the time span 444 B.C. to 33 A.D. is one year too late. Only the time line 445 B.C. to 32 A.D. fits the facts."

    --Endtime Pilgrim [same caveat (and author) as above]


    [end quoting]


    ...so this would cover the "shall be cut off" part of verse 26.


    The author was using both lunar and solar calendar to come to this conclusion.


    The beginning and ending point (of the "FROM... UNTO the messiah the prince" [v.25] being a certain length) both fall in Nisan.

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