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Thread: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

  1. #46

    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    ^ Sorry, I can't edit my post to rejoin the link where separated.

  2. #47

    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Firstly think about this: There is a "PRINCE THAT SHALL COME" in v25, then a "PRINCE THAT SHALL COME" in v26. At what stage did it say "ANOTHER PRINCE THAT SHALL COME"? Grammatically it sounds like the same prince, unless you want your view on history to distort actual grammar.
    But verse 25 doesn't say that.

    Verse 25 says, "FROM [something] UNTO [the messiah the prince] shall be [____(a certain length of time)]"... after which [total, all together], he shall be "cut off" (and have nothing, or, but not for himself).


    Then "the people [OF the prince THAT SHALL COME]" shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (but this isn't saying that this "prince" is existing at the same time the people OF him do this).

  3. #48

    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    IOW, the phrase "THAT SHALL COME" only applies to the one in verse 26 (and anything he does in v.27). Where that phrase is found in conjunction with him. It is not in verse 25.

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    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    But verse 25 doesn't say that.

    Verse 25 says, "FROM [something] UNTO [the messiah the prince] shall be [____(a certain length of time)]"... after which [total, all together], he shall be "cut off" (and have nothing, or, but not for himself).


    Then "the people [OF the prince THAT SHALL COME]" shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (but this isn't saying that this "prince" is existing at the same time the people OF him do this).
    v25 does refer to a coming ruler/prince NIV " until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes" / "the coming of an anointed one, a prince"(ESV)
    v26 is about his people/countrymen, the countrymen of that coming ruler/prince

    These are the simple facts. NEVER does Dan 9:26 refer to ANOTHER coming prince, it is an obvious reference to the same prince/ruler in v25. Unless one wishes to let your view of history affect the obvious wording.

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    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Keraz, that is the standard way of looking at it, but outside of Daniel 9 the bible never hints at a 7 year period. OFTEN the bible mentions a final 3.5 year period. Daniel 7, Daniel 12 ,Rev 11, Rev 12, Rev 13. All these periods best fit into the final 3.5 years, rather than an earlier 3.5 year period.

    And if you think about it, why introduce a gap in the 490 year period unless necessary? Jesus was recognised as the "anointed one " by John the Baptist, and publicly acknowledged as the anointed one. Jesus even admitted it. He was also especially anointed by the Holy Spirit at that moment (River Jordan). this all shows that Jesus fulfilled the "coming of the anointed ruler" in year 483.

    Then in v27 (at year 483) someone will "confirm a promise". The coming of the anointed one in year 483 WAS the promise confirmed of v25. Jesus fulfilled a powerful promise in year 483, and died on the cross 3.5 years later, the final lamb sacrifice.
    But the Bible does tell us that leaders of the people in Jerusalem, will make a treaty with someone, obviously another leader. Isaiah 28:14-15 refers to it as a 'treaty with death'.
    I see the people in the holy Land at that time as the Lord's holy people, every faithful Christian; as described in Isaiah 62:1-5 and Romans 9:24-26. The other party must be the one described in Daniel 9:27, Daniel 7:23-26, Revelation 17:12-13. The leader of the soon to be established One World Government.

    This powerful and charismatic man, Daniel 11:21, will take fright when the Lord amazingly destroys the great army of Gog from Magog, that comes down from the North to loot and rape the new nation in all of the holy Land, so he will come to Jerusalem and convince many to sign a 7 years treaty of peace. Daniel 11:32a, but he doesn't keep his word; Daniel 11:23, after 3.5 years, he comes in force to Jerusalem and conquers them. Zechariah 14:1-2, Daniel 1:31, Revelation 13:7

    These facts are plainly set out in many scriptures, to dismiss them is a rejection of Bible truths.

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    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    IOW, the phrase "THAT SHALL COME" only applies to the one in verse 26 (and anything he does in v.27). Where that phrase is found in conjunction with him. It is not in verse 25.
    Correct - it is not possible to be referring to Jesus.

  7. #52

    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    v25 does refer to a coming ruler/prince NIV " until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes" / "the coming of an anointed one, a prince"(ESV)
    v26 is about his people/countrymen, the countrymen of that coming ruler/prince

    These are the simple facts. NEVER does Dan 9:26 refer to ANOTHER coming prince, it is an obvious reference to the same prince/ruler in v25. Unless one wishes to let your view of history affect the obvious wording.
    Verse 25 has "UNTIL [H5704 - ad]" (but no "come" word; though recall what I said about this being fulfilled on the day Jesus said the words in Lk19:41-44 and did the actions of Zech9:9): https://biblehub.com/text/daniel/9-25.htm


    Verse 26 has the word "come [H935 - bo]" (but not the other, of course): https://biblehub.com/text/daniel/9-26.htm



    After saying "UNTO messiah the prince," in verse 25, I believe it would be superfluous to say LATER "the prince THAT/WHO IS TO COME" or "the prince THAT SHALL COME" (those caps words would be unnecessary, we already know from verse 25 "UNTO [him]" was a certain length of time (FROM a previous point in time).


    To me, it's like we would say, "until the polka-dotted clown. Afterward, shall the clown be shot out of the cannon, and fall to the ground. [then other stuff will happen, involving "the little people OF the clown WHO IS TO COME".] The clown WHO IS TO COME will do certain other things, like fly on the trapeze."

    Do they have to be the same clown? No.

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    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    v25 does refer to a coming ruler/prince NIV " until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes" / "the coming of an anointed one, a prince"(ESV)
    v26 is about his people/countrymen, the countrymen of that coming ruler/prince

    These are the simple facts. NEVER does Dan 9:26 refer to ANOTHER coming prince, it is an obvious reference to the same prince/ruler in v25. Unless one wishes to let your view of history affect the obvious wording.
    Incorrect, the very phraseology speaks of a people who will destroy, whose prince is to come (future to their destroying the city).

  9. #54

    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    I believe it is sequential. That is another aspect (I had put breifly in my post #27 [I think] )

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    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    I believe it is sequential. That is another aspect (I had put breifly in my post #27 [I think] )
    It is DEFINITELY presented as sequential - first the word goes forth, THEN 7 weeks, THEN the anointed ruler comes, THEN the city is rebuilt, THEN the 62 weeks, THEN an anointed one comes, then after the 62 weeks the anointed one is cut off, THEN the people of the prince to come destroy the city, THEN the prince (who was to come of the people) comes, THEN we have the last week, with the AoD etc.
    All sequential.

    Not sure you agree with my sequence though, but that is why I have found that none of the traditional views accurately fulfilled the prophecy.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    I believe it is sequential. That is another aspect (I had put breifly in my post #27 [I think] )
    It is DEFINITELY presented as sequential - first the word goes forth, THEN 7 weeks, THEN the anointed ruler comes, THEN the city is rebuilt, THEN the 62 weeks, THEN an anointed one comes, then after the 62 weeks the anointed one is cut off, THEN the people of the prince to come destroy the city, THEN the prince (who was to come of the people) comes, THEN we have the last week, with the AoD etc.
    All sequential.

    Not sure you agree with my sequence though, but that is why I have found that none of the traditional views accurately fulfilled the prophecy.

  11. #56

    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    From what I recall, we pretty much only disagree on the "FROM... UNTO" of verse 25 (but not disagreeing that the end point refers to Jesus).

    And as for verse 26, I believe that the "THAT SHALL COME" connects with 2Th2:9a's "whose COMING [advent/arrival/presence/parousia]" at the START of the 7-yr [one week] period (rather than its middle or its end). Meaning, I believe his "be revealed" (2Th2) is at the BEGINNING of the 7 years... thus that his "come" could precede this even by mere seconds. I am not distinguishing that a whole lot (time-wise). Of course, the person has to exist and can well before this point in time, but the prophecy involves his pertinent "doings," IMO (rather than his length of life or age or the like).

    From what I recall, we pretty much only disagree on the "FROM... UNTO" of verse 25 (but not disagreeing that the end point refers to Jesus).

    And as for verse 26, I believe that the "THAT SHALL COME" connects with 2Th2:9a's "whose COMING [advent/arrival/presence/parousia]" at the START of the 7-yr [one week] period (rather than its middle or its end). Meaning, I believe his "be revealed" (2Th2) is at the BEGINNING of the 7 years... thus that his "come" could precede this even by mere seconds. I am not distinguishing that a whole lot (time-wise). Of course, the person has to exist and can well before this point in time, but the prophecy involves his pertinent "doings," IMO (rather than his length of life or age or the like).

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    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    A "time, times and half a time" was a repeating calendar formula in the original Hebrew Sabbatical year cycle. Just because it is mentioned in several scriptures does not mean that we have to assume they were all the same 3.5 year block. So, I stand by my belief that the 3.5 year period referenced in Daniel 9:27 is not the same timeline as the ones mentioned elsewhere.
    The Hebrew to English translation of "time" per scripture denotes ONE year, "times" denotes Two years and "half a time" (some texts say, the dividing of time) denotes half a year. I don't know anyone who disputes this.

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    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Yes the reason most views go with the one character in Dan 9:27 is because the two most popular bibles KJV and NIV have one character, "he" throughout the verse. The NIV does however have the two character version in it's footnote as a viable alternative:
    he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And one who causes desolation will come upon the wing of the abominable temple

    Even though the KJV had one character, many subsequent versions deliberately chose to introduce two characters. FHG says the pronouns are largely irrelevant, but then why not leave them out if not needed? Yet the translators chose to clearly have two guys, not one.
    My thoughts as well. I've heard pretty weird suppositions that place the prince to come as the Antichrist while maintaining that the people of the prince were the Romans. How this qualifies as logic to an intellectual mind, beats me. But then, what do I know?

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    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't know Hebrew but I'm guessing it's because of an ambiguity associated with using pronouns, with respect to he, she or it. I don't believe the Hebrew and the English are equivalent in this regard. Since English translators do know Hebrew, we can reliably expect that a person or persons are directing these actions, the covenant and the desolation. However, I'm not sure if this requires a he, a she, or an it? As far as I know, a "he" could also be a "she. And an "it" could be a "he," or vice versa. And these actions may be done by either one or two persons!
    He or She is not just about numbers but about the sexes. But the question is whether there are TWO princes as against ONE? My money is on two; Titus is one: (his people/legions destroyed the temple). The second prince is the Antichrist who establishes a covenant and breaks it halfway through.

    Notice that the people of the prince to come have already caused their own damage and destruction (Dan 9:26) before the cessation of sacrifice and desolation occurred in v-27? I cannot for the life of me, conflate the two as the same event.

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    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Correct.



    That is great that you see alternative possibilities there. Yes context and interpretation of the previous verses determine who the "he" is in v27. History shows that a Jewish civil war ruined/corrupted the city and temple, then the Romans destroyed it quickly like a flood. This civil war madness among the Jewish leaders is something often missed when interpreting v26. In addition a coming prince is in both v25 and v26, and there is no reason to differentiate them, because the text does not hint at that.

    Thus I see 5 reasons why the "he" in v27 is Jesus. His kinsmen did actually ruin/corrupt(shachath) the temple, and he is the coming ruler so the "he" in v27 refers back to the ruler in v26. In verse 27 he did confirm the promise of v25 , and he did put an end to sacrifice, and this was 3.5 years after his coming/confirming.

    Was he associated with an abomination and did he come to his end? No that is for the future antichrist.
    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    The "coming ruler" (anointed one) of v25 should grammatically be the same as the coming ruler of v26, unless the text says ANOTHER coming ruler. But the text does not hint at a second ruler, they are by all normal use of language the SAME ruler.

    That anointed coming ruler is Jesus, and so the "he" in v27 points to Jesus.
    I'm just wondering how the (Anointed One) we are told, is cut off in v-26 is somehow referred to in v-27 as still alive and confirming a covenant? Notice also, that an event that occurred 40 years after the Messiah is cut off (70AD) is inserted between his death and the covenant he's supposed to have confirmed in v-27.

    Can you help me make sense of it, please?

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