Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 106

Thread: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    6,907
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    ^ Sorry, I can't edit my post to rejoin the link where separated.
    You are not alone here. A bit frustrating...

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    London, England
    Posts
    6,907
    Blog Entries
    13

    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    But verse 25 doesn't say that.

    Verse 25 says, "FROM [something] UNTO [the messiah the prince] shall be [____(a certain length of time)]"... after which [total, all together], he shall be "cut off" (and have nothing, or, but not for himself).

    Then "the people [OF the prince THAT SHALL COME]" shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (but this isn't saying that this "prince" is existing at the same time the people OF him do this).
    Who do you reckon then is the "prince" to come?

  3. #63

    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Who do you reckon then is the "prince" to come?
    Let me ask you this first... did you read my post #27?

  4. #64
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    2,765
    Blog Entries
    5

    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The Hebrew to English translation of "time" per scripture denotes ONE year, "times" denotes Two years and "half a time" (some texts say, the dividing of time) denotes half a year. I don't know anyone who disputes this.
    Sure, no probs with that. But the division of the ‘week’ was a method of inserting intercalary months. And I still stand by my belief that the 3.5 year period referenced in Daniel 9:27 is not the same timeline as the ones mentioned elsewhere.
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    9,292
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The Hebrew to English translation of "time" per scripture denotes ONE year, "times" denotes Two years and "half a time" (some texts say, the dividing of time) denotes half a year. I don't know anyone who disputes this.
    Nope, IF Gd had meant year He would have said year. After all He is perfectly able to express days and months.
    A time means a time which is an unspecified period relating to something.
    So for example it could be the time of the Babylonians followed by the time of the Persians followed by half the time of the Greeks.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    9,813

    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    He or She is not just about numbers but about the sexes. But the question is whether there are TWO princes as against ONE? My money is on two; Titus is one: (his people/legions destroyed the temple). The second prince is the Antichrist who establishes a covenant and breaks it halfway through.

    Notice that the people of the prince to come have already caused their own damage and destruction (Dan 9:26) before the cessation of sacrifice and desolation occurred in v-27? I cannot for the life of me, conflate the two as the same event.
    As I understand it, gender is not quite so clear in Hebrew. Masculine and feminine words are not necessarily applied literally as we understand it. For example, I believe that a masculine word can imply either gender. In English we often use "he" in the sense of including both men and women. For example, "He who believes in the Lord will be saved." This applies to both men and women.

    And a word can also be, in Hebrew, neuter, implying either a person or a thing. But I'm not good with Hebrew.

    As to your view of there being 2 persons involved in Dan 9.27, I agree. In fact, I would argue that the basis for this interpretation is established in the previous verse, in vs. 26. There, we read about both the Anointed One and the people of the Prince who is to come.

    I personally believe the Anointed One in vs. 26 is the one who makes a covenant for the last Week in vs. 27. And I think the one whose people come against the city and the sanctuary in vs. 26 is the "abomination of desolation" in vs. 27. My whole view of the Olivet Discourse is predicated on this particular understanding.

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    9,813

    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Nope, IF Gd had meant year He would have said year. After all He is perfectly able to express days and months.
    A time means a time which is an unspecified period relating to something.
    So for example it could be the time of the Babylonians followed by the time of the Persians followed by half the time of the Greeks.
    It's a truism to say that God would've said "year" if He meant to say "year." But it doesn't follow that God can't choose to use the word "time" in place of "year." In fact, many people believe He did. In saying "time, times, and half a time," God was choosing to express 3.5 years in the form of "times."

    This statement does not alone prove it. But in theory it's possible, and in the minds of some, likely.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Durban ,South Africa
    Posts
    7,490

    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I'm just wondering how the (Anointed One) we are told, is cut off in v-26 is somehow referred to in v-27 as still alive and confirming a covenant? Notice also, that an event that occurred 40 years after the Messiah is cut off (70AD) is inserted between his death and the covenant he's supposed to have confirmed in v-27.

    Can you help me make sense of it, please?
    There is an aside comment, shown as follows:
    After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’
    AFTER year 483 some events will occur. Then v27 is referring to year 483 again (1 week left). Surely?
    Looking at Jesus' life, there is absolutely no reason to stop the timeline at year 483 the moment Jesus was publicly recognised as the "anointed". Surely the 3.5 years of his ministry counts for something in response to Daniel's plea for Israel?

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Durban ,South Africa
    Posts
    7,490

    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Incorrect, the very phraseology speaks of a people who will destroy, whose prince is to come (future to their destroying the city).
    CONTEXT indicates actions of the countrymen occur AFTER the cutting off of the coming anointed ruler mentioned in v25:

    v25 mentions the coming anointed ruler: until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes
    THEN the anointed one will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will shachath the city

    Sure there is future tense wording, all these events were future to Daniel.

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Durban ,South Africa
    Posts
    7,490

    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    But the Bible does tell us that leaders of the people in Jerusalem, will make a treaty with someone, obviously another leader. Isaiah 28:14-15 refers to it as a 'treaty with death'.
    I see the people in the holy Land at that time as the Lord's holy people, every faithful Christian; as described in Isaiah 62:1-5 and Romans 9:24-26. The other party must be the one described in Daniel 9:27, Daniel 7:23-26, Revelation 17:12-13. The leader of the soon to be established One World Government.

    This powerful and charismatic man, Daniel 11:21, will take fright when the Lord amazingly destroys the great army of Gog from Magog, that comes down from the North to loot and rape the new nation in all of the holy Land, so he will come to Jerusalem and convince many to sign a 7 years treaty of peace. Daniel 11:32a, but he doesn't keep his word; Daniel 11:23, after 3.5 years, he comes in force to Jerusalem and conquers them. Zechariah 14:1-2, Daniel 1:31, Revelation 13:7

    These facts are plainly set out in many scriptures, to dismiss them is a rejection of Bible truths.
    I agree with the bible verses but not your interpretation. The war of Gog is the final war of the age, it does not occur earlier as you describe. I believe the antichrist will come to power suddenly in Jerusalem and deceive the world. Compromised Jews will accept him and be living in safety, creating an apostate Israel for 3.5 years. Other Jews will flee. He will rule for 3.5 years in Israel, but the whole world will get together and plan a surprise attack on him, known as Gog/Armageddon/Northern Army/Armies from the east.

    This is why the antichrist is alarmed by reports to the north and east in Daniel 11. Satan is gathering the armies of the world to war against each other and hoping to destroy Israel in the process. At this stage sinful Israel REPENTS:
    Joel 2:“return to me with all your heart with fasting and weeping and mourning.”
    Ezekiel 39: They will forget their shame and all the unfaithfulness they showed toward me when they lived in safety in their land

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Durban ,South Africa
    Posts
    7,490

    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    My thoughts as well. I've heard pretty weird suppositions that place the prince to come as the Antichrist while maintaining that the people of the prince were the Romans. How this qualifies as logic to an intellectual mind, beats me. But then, what do I know?
    They then have to believe in a Roman antichrist which has some merits, but I believe he is more likely Middle Eastern. He seems to be strongly associated with the "kingdom of the North" (Syria) and Israel itself (false anointed one).

    The Jewish civil war of moral corruption and ruining of Jerusalem, provided the backdrop to the Roman destruction. BOTH people's were involved in the schachath/ruin/corruption/destruction of Jerusalem.

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    9,292
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    CONTEXT indicates actions of the countrymen occur AFTER the cutting off of the coming anointed ruler mentioned in v25:

    v25 mentions the coming anointed ruler: until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes
    THEN the anointed one will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will shachath the city

    Sure there is future tense wording, all these events were future to Daniel.
    Where we agree is the chronology, that the actions of a group of people occurs AFTER an anointed one is cut off.
    Where we disagree is your claim that the anointed one who is cut off is the SAME prince who is to come.
    The prince who is to come, comes AFTER the people have destroyed the city and sanctuary. That is what the phraseology states.

    Now the PEOPLE who destroyed the city were not Romans, but actually people of the Middle East.
    The identity of that prince is shown through the PEOPLE who destroy the city.

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    CONTEXT indicates actions of the countrymen occur AFTER the cutting off of the coming anointed ruler mentioned in v25:

    v25 mentions the coming anointed ruler: until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes
    THEN the anointed one will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will shachath the city

    Sure there is future tense wording, all these events were future to Daniel.
    Where we agree is the chronology, that the actions of a group of people occurs AFTER an anointed one is cut off.
    Where we disagree is your claim that the anointed one who is cut off is the SAME prince who is to come.
    The prince who is to come, comes AFTER the people have destroyed the city and sanctuary. That is what the phraseology states.

    Now the PEOPLE who destroyed the city were not Romans, but actually people of the Middle East.
    The identity of that prince is shown through the PEOPLE who destroy the city.

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    9,292
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    It's a truism to say that God would've said "year" if He meant to say "year." But it doesn't follow that God can't choose to use the word "time" in place of "year." In fact, many people believe He did. In saying "time, times, and half a time," God was choosing to express 3.5 years in the form of "times."

    This statement does not alone prove it. But in theory it's possible, and in the minds of some, likely.
    The simple FACT is that God states EXACT days when He speaks of days, and says EXACT months, when He speaks of months, why do we bizarrely change the way God operates and say God means years when He says times. Is God so unclear He can't say years when He wants to?

    The requirement is rot prove that time means year rather than the other way around.
    Some have postulated seasons yet we have this useful verse:
    Dan 7:12* As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

    Now normally a season means EXACTLY that a period of the spring or autumn.
    Now when we consider WHAT this is referring to then we see it as reflecting on this:

    Rev 20:7* And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison*
    Rev 20:8* and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.*
    Rev 20:9* And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,*

    The season and the time refer to the thousand years and the period shortly after while Satan deceives the whole world.
    Intriguingly most commentators call the period of time that Satan deceives the whole world as a little season.
    If that is the correct connection then it means that in this case the time lasts a thousand years.

    As I see Dan 12 as already fulfilled then we have this statement:
    Dan 12:7* And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished.

    This equates very easily to the time of the Babylonians, the times of the Medes and the Persians and the half the time of the Greeks - Greek power over Israel ended after A4E, but the Greek time continued until 30 BC, which in terms of years is close to the half way point - 336 BC to 30 BC is 306 years. A4E came to power in 175 BC or about 160 years into the Greek dominance and died 11 years later - so around half the time.

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    9,813

    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The simple FACT is that God states EXACT days when He speaks of days, and says EXACT months, when He speaks of months, why do we bizarrely change the way God operates and say God means years when He says times. Is God so unclear He can't say years when He wants to?
    What you're doing is asking God to conform to your own rules of language use. God may legitimately use "times" in place of "years." You only need to ask, Why?

    At the very least you should entertain the possibility He did this. To say God can only use a particular word to describe a unit of time is absurd. Most people I know have interpreted "time, times, and half a time" to be "3.5 years." And when you consider that the book of Revelation defines this period of time, namely the reign of Antichrist, to be 3.5 years, the equation becomes fairly clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    The requirement is rot prove that time means year rather than the other way around.
    Some have postulated seasons yet we have this useful verse:
    Dan 7:12* As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

    Now normally a season means EXACTLY that a period of the spring or autumn.
    Now when we consider WHAT this is referring to then we see it as reflecting on this:

    Rev 20:7* And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison*
    Rev 20:8* and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.*
    Rev 20:9* And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,*

    The season and the time refer to the thousand years and the period shortly after while Satan deceives the whole world.
    Intriguingly most commentators call the period of time that Satan deceives the whole world as a little season.
    If that is the correct connection then it means that in this case the time lasts a thousand years.
    That's possible. Words have flexible usage, and this is determined by the speaker or writer. A "day" or a "season" can be used metaphorically, expressing an extended unit of time. Again, context determines whether this is so or not. "Time, times, and half a time" appear to be a literal 3.5 years period of time. They do not seem to have a metaphorical application.

    The fact "time" is used in place of "year" is something we can question. Why would "time" be substituted for "year?" It may be an emphasis not just upon the overall length of time, but more upon distinct periods that have to be endured.

    It is like emphasizing a convict's punishments, rather than just the specific length of his sentence. It would be like saying he has to suffer 3 or 4 ordeals, rather than just receive a single sentence. Each year would constitute a punishment all in itself, and each year would be marked off on the wall as a "time."

    It would be one thing to say a convict receives a 3.5 year sentence. But to say he would have to suffer 3 or 4 punishments, each year being a punishment, seems to be the sense of the word "time" here. This is, in fact, how Amos used this in his book: "For three sins of Damascus, even for four, I will not relent."

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    As I see Dan 12 as already fulfilled then we have this statement:
    Dan 12:7* And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished.

    This equates very easily to the time of the Babylonians, the times of the Medes and the Persians and the half the time of the Greeks - Greek power over Israel ended after A4E, but the Greek time continued until 30 BC, which in terms of years is close to the half way point - 336 BC to 30 BC is 306 years. A4E came to power in 175 BC or about 160 years into the Greek dominance and died 11 years later - so around half the time.
    I take Dan 12.7 literally. I see it as a reiteration of what had been said in ch. 7. This is, I think, a recapitulation, or summary, of the major prophecies of the book--things that remained in Daniel's future. Daniel asked about how "all these things would be concluded," and he was told it was essentially beyond his ability to know it all in detail. It would have to be experienced by future generations.

    In a nutshell, Daniel was given 2 events, the more conclusive event being the 3.5 years of Antichrist (12.7). But then Daniel is given the 1290 days of Antiochus as another important event--an event that was nearer in time to Daniel.

    These were 2 different events with similar, but different, time periods. Their summary concludes the book.

  15. #75

    Re: DANIEL 9:27 TWO CHARACTERS NOT ONE

    I thought most were agreed that Daniel 7:25 [v.27; context vv.20-27] was about the second half of the trib, parallel with Revelation 13:5 (subject-wise) and Revelation 12:12-14 (time-wise, and subject-wise). The word in Daniel 7:25 "H5732" ['time'] is the same word as in 7:12 (though perhaps covering a separate subject and time-frame).


    My view is that 12:6-7 [also v.1 (vv.1-4) and v.13] is covering the same time period as 7:25 (the second half of the future 7-yr trib leading up to His Second Coming to the earth), but that the Hebrew wording in chpt 12 is much more specific/pointed (and will be "understood" by the "wise [of Israel]" in that future time), in a similar way as if our saying [in America] something like "from Butterball to ball-drop [equaling 1260 days]" (if it did, that is [this is just as an example]), and "we" would KNOW what that means (time-wise).

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: Jun 21st 2018, 03:12 PM
  2. Discussion Biblical Characters who Learned Patience
    By amandawest in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: Dec 14th 2016, 07:20 AM
  3. Great Characters in the Bible who maybe didn't make it...
    By ChangedByHim in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: Oct 15th 2015, 05:30 PM
  4. Bible Characters Most Like You/You Relate To?
    By Youssarian in forum Christian Fellowship
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: Dec 24th 2009, 02:36 AM
  5. What if Bible Characters had Twitter?
    By stillforgiven in forum Christian Fellowship
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: Aug 17th 2009, 04:42 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •