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Thread: Sour wine - questions about Hebrew/Greek idioms

  1. #1
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    Sour wine - questions about Hebrew/Greek idioms

    I will have a couple of questions to ask at the end of this post. But first, I need to set the stage.

    I've been reading in Hosea. Today, it was chapter 4 and some of it, at least to me, was confusing. So I tried to research it and understand a little better. Well, towards the end of the chapter, there was this verse:

    Hosea 4:18

    KJV Their drink is sour: they have committed whoredom continually: her rulers with shame do love, Give ye.

    NASB Their liquor gone,They play the harlot continually;
    Their rulers dearly love shame.

    I checked out all the Hebrew word with strongs concordance for "sour" in the KJV. And the concordance states, that where it was translated "sour" it is a Greek/Hebrew idiom. JFB (Jameson, Faucet, and Brown) references Isa 1:22.

    KJV Isa 1:22 Your silver has become dross,
    Your drink diluted with water.

    JFB states this about the passages: "Their drink is sour - metaphor for utter degeneracy of principle (Isa 1:22). Or, unbridled licentiousness; not mere ordinary sin, but as abandoned as drunkards who vomit and smell sour with wine potations (Calvin)."

    I found that very interesting. They are saying it was a total abandonment to sin.

    Questions:

    1. Was the northern kingdom destroyed soon after, or immediately after, or during Hosea?

    And now for the kicker question, what I am really after:

    2. Just before Jesus died, they gave him sour wine. After receiving it, scripture says "it is finished" and He gave up the Ghost. I want to say that this represents Jesus taking the complete fullness of rebellion on Himself. Not just the rebellion of the ignorant, but the rebellion of those of us who reject the knowledge of God and turn to full blown sin as what happened in Hosea's day. And keep in mind that God also prophesied that He would again be a husband to the rebellious Israel in Hosea 2.

    What do you guys think?
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  2. #2
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    Re: Sour wine - questions about Hebrew/Greek idioms

    I can see the connection for sure, or it at least could allude to Hosea. Jesus takes the sour wine just before His death and completion of God's punishment. So I think it's partially a reminder of the fallenness of Israel/Judah, and that they were behaving the same as in Hosea's time.

    I know Ephraim, and Israel is not hidden from me; for now, O Ephraim, you have played the whore; Israel is defiled. Their deeds do not permit them to return to their God. For the spirit of whoredom is within them, and they know not the Lord. The pride of Israel testifies to his face; Israel and Ephraim shall stumble in his guilt; Judah also shall stumble with them. (Hosea 5)

    But then interestingly:

    My heart recoils within me; my compassion grows warm and tender. I will not execute my burning anger; I will not again destroy Ephraim; for I am God and not a man, the Holy One in your midst, and I will not come in wrath .... Ephraim has surrounded me with lies, and the house of Israel with deceit, but Judah still walks with God and is faithful to the Holy One. (Hosea 11)

    I think Hosea as a book in general is a picture into the "heart and mind" of God, what He feels regarding His people, which was why Hosea took Gomer in the first place. It doesn't come across as prophetic in terms of events being the focus, but more so explaining the motivation behind His later coming and sacrifice. Drinking the sour wine could definitely be an image of this heartfelt love and anger over the people.
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


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    Re: Sour wine - questions about Hebrew/Greek idioms

    Quote Originally Posted by Aviyah View Post
    I can see the connection for sure, or it at least could allude to Hosea. Jesus takes the sour wine just before His death and completion of God's punishment. So I think it's partially a reminder of the fallenness of Israel/Judah, and that they were behaving the same as in Hosea's time.
    Thank you Aviyah. I have not been able to confirm it, but for me, it seems to fit. Of course, I apply Hosea to my life personally too and have seen how I played the harlot. But also have seen how the Lord has forgiven me. It seems to me that on the cross, this may indeed be a reference to where the Lord Jesus says He took all of our sins, even the worst ones that we did in open rebellion, knowing full well what we were doing, and we did it anyway. Is there anything more damaging to a marriage than open adultery?

    I think Hosea as a book in general is a picture into the "heart and mind" of God, what He feels regarding His people, which was why Hosea took Gomer in the first place. It doesn't come across as prophetic in terms of events being the focus, but more so explaining the motivation behind His later coming and sacrifice. Drinking the sour wine could definitely be an image of this heartfelt love and anger over the people.
    This is my favorite part of your post. Looking for the heart of God in all scripture is so rewarding! I remember reading about how Jesus told the pharisees not to invite their friends, family, or rich folks to their feasts because those people could pay them back. Instead, go and invite the poor, the needy, etc. to the feasts, those that could not ever pay them back and then they would be rewarded in heaven. Seeing the Lord's heart there, reminded me that He invited me to a His feasts knowing I could never, ever repay Him. Not only that, but He never even expected me to repay Him. In each command given to us, we can see the heart of God towards us. For those commands, come from His heart. Thank you for the reminder!
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: Sour wine - questions about Hebrew/Greek idioms

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    I will have a couple of questions to ask at the end of this post. But first, I need to set the stage.

    I've been reading in Hosea. Today, it was chapter 4 and some of it, at least to me, was confusing. So I tried to research it and understand a little better. Well, towards the end of the chapter, there was this verse:

    Hosea 4:18

    KJV Their drink is sour: they have committed whoredom continually: her rulers with shame do love, Give ye.

    NASB Their liquor gone,They play the harlot continually;
    Their rulers dearly love shame.

    I checked out all the Hebrew word with strongs concordance for "sour" in the KJV. And the concordance states, that where it was translated "sour" it is a Greek/Hebrew idiom. JFB (Jameson, Faucet, and Brown) references Isa 1:22.

    KJV Isa 1:22 Your silver has become dross,
    Your drink diluted with water.

    JFB states this about the passages: "Their drink is sour - metaphor for utter degeneracy of principle (Isa 1:22). Or, unbridled licentiousness; not mere ordinary sin, but as abandoned as drunkards who vomit and smell sour with wine potations (Calvin)."

    I found that very interesting. They are saying it was a total abandonment to sin.

    Questions:

    1. Was the northern kingdom destroyed soon after, or immediately after, or during Hosea?

    And now for the kicker question, what I am really after:

    2. Just before Jesus died, they gave him sour wine. After receiving it, scripture says "it is finished" and He gave up the Ghost. I want to say that this represents Jesus taking the complete fullness of rebellion on Himself. Not just the rebellion of the ignorant, but the rebellion of those of us who reject the knowledge of God and turn to full blown sin as what happened in Hosea's day. And keep in mind that God also prophesied that He would again be a husband to the rebellious Israel in Hosea 2.

    What do you guys think?
    As I understand it, Hosea was a prophet from the N. Kingdom, and ministered prior to the fall of that Kingdom to Assyria in 721 BC. As such, he presented Israel's last chance to repent from their sins. Hosea's life was symbolic of God's relationship with Israel, because he was married to an adulterous wife. Israel was adulterous, and yet God continued to have hope in them.

    This was important because God refused to completely give up on Israel even though they committed apostasy, and eventually fell into captivity. This was the all-importance picture of Christian grace, in which *all sin* can be forgiven. Israel's hope remains in perpetuity. Hosea never gave up on his wife. And even though she left for awhile, Hosea bought her back.

    I don't know that the sour wine has anything to do with Christ on the cross. He seems to have given up on any artificial means of avoiding the suffering of the cross. I'm not sure.

    But the reference to sour drink seems to do more with Israel's sin at the time Hosea lived and ministered. They were adulterous in spirit, and flagrantly wasted their lives on drink and riotous living. This is far from anything Christ would ever have done. But I'm sure Christ bore their sins nonetheless. The only condition for restoration is a renewed commitment to God as our Lord and Savior.

  5. #5

    Re: Sour wine - questions about Hebrew/Greek idioms

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    ...

    2. Just before Jesus died, they gave him sour wine. After receiving it, scripture says "it is finished" and He gave up the Ghost. I want to say that this represents Jesus taking the complete fullness of rebellion on Himself. Not just the rebellion of the ignorant, but the rebellion of those of us who reject the knowledge of God and turn to full blown sin as what happened in Hosea's day. And keep in mind that God also prophesied that He would again be a husband to the rebellious Israel in Hosea 2.

    What do you guys think?
    I think you are right on. I play by a set of hermeneutic rules where a metaphor must be the same everywhere. Using that, I have attempted to demonstrate a claim made of the Hebrew language that the meaning of words are made from the combined meanings of the letters within. (A big discussion needed)

    I would offer some observation based in that study:

    I have observed seven Hebrew words for wine and each describes an aspect of grace.
    The one used here is :

    סבא wine, liquor, drunk
    spirit's purpose ס revealed to man ב for reconciliation/separation (holiness) א

    The word for sour is:
    סור turn aside, depart, degenerate ('soor' sounds like sour in English)
    You can see why vinegar would be describes as the wine you turn away from.

    The key to the verse in question is another verse speaking of wine:

    Pr 20:1 ∂ Wine [is] a mocker, strong drink [is] raging (delusion): and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

    This proverb says that 'too much grace causes one to mock God', meaning that if we think we are free to sin because we have grace, then we mock God. see Ro 6:1

    Strong drink appears to represent law, where if we have too much of this, we become self-righteous, as the Pharisees.

    Back to the point:
    Their grace has become degenerate. How does this point to Jesus tasting the sour wine at his death?

    Christ came to bear the full consequence of our sin. As he tasted the vinegar, the grace he experienced through his trials and tribulations has now departed. It is a sign of the end of grace for him, and the beginning of the last step of his judgement; death.

    Good allegory springs from metaphor derived from the words. Vinegar is the last stage of the fermentation of wine. It is finished.

    The sweetness of his promised grace has turned bitter in his own judgement. The Great day of the Lord was also the Dreadful day of the Lord. Mal 4:5

    References
    Ro 6:1 ∂ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

    Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

  6. #6

    Re: Sour wine - questions about Hebrew/Greek idioms

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    ... And keep in mind that God also prophesied that He would again be a husband to the rebellious Israel in Hosea 2.

    What do you guys think?
    Another observation:

    One word for wine is:

    תורוש wine, freshly expelled, grape juice 'tiyrowsh'

    torah (the Word) תורו married ש

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