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Thread: Sin against the Holy Spirit

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    Sin against the Holy Spirit

    Why is it that sin against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven whereas it may be forgiven against Jesus (Matt 12:32)?

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    Re: Sin against the Holy Spirit

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Why is it that sin against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven whereas it may be forgiven against Jesus (Matt 12:32)?
    The following are considerations in this matter:

    Just to be precise, it is a "sin" but the actual wording in Matthew 12:32 is; "And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this AGE, neither in the AGE to come." According to the context, "speaks a word against" is to attribute an obvious work of the Holy Spirit to another power. During our Lord ministry He did many and wonderful miracles. But nearly all of them can be found having been done by God in the Old Testament including raising the dead. TWO miracles are NOT found in the Old Testament. They are healing the blind and casting out demons. The case in Matthew 12:22 was BOTH demon possessed AND blind. The Jews knew who Jesus was because in the Parable of the Vineyard in Matthew Chapter 21, it says they knew that Jesus spoke of "them" (v.45). So, they knowingly attributed marvelous works that had never been done before to the Holy Spirit.
    Notice that against the "Son of MAN" it will be forgiven. It is those who go against God the Spirit that the threat is leveled. Paul is a prime example. He spoke against Jesus - THE MAN and killed those who called on His Name. But he thought he was doing God a favor. So he did not speak against the Holy Spirit. He is forgiven.

    But Ananais and Sapphira defamed the Holy Spirit. In the preamble to their lie it reads in Acts 4:31-37 that the Holy Spirit was in great evidence (vs. 31, 33). So when Ananias and Sapphira pretended to have given all, because they were in a Company which displayed the powers of the Holy Spirit, they made it as is if the Holy Spirit was deceitful. Ananias and Sapphira were Christians, members of the Church, who were not only slain in this age, but will not be allowed into the Millennial Kingdom either. It would do us all good to pause here because on this Forum, a few times over the years, I have witnessed a brother (or sister), who did not understand a certain exposition of scripture, say that it was a doctrine of the Devil. It was not. It was just that he/she had never been faced with it before. Rather, when faced with a controversial teaching, it is best to withdraw to consider it before attributing it to the Devil. The brother who brought that doctrine, if it is correct, has it from the Holy Spirit (Jn.14:26). There is not one correct doctrine on this Forum that was not given by the Holy Spirit. Even the most intellectual of us cannot do anything without it being given him (Jn.3:27).

    The matter is one of the Kingdom, or a "Governmental issue. The next age is the Millennial Kingdom of Jesus and anyone not found worthy is excluded from this Kingdom. From various scriptures we see that this can happen to an Israelite, a Christian and/or a Gentile.
    In Matthew 8:12, "... the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" are Jews who should have had the Kingdom but refused it.
    In Matthew 13:41, "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity" are Christians. They are already IN the Kingdom and are cast out for "OFFENSE". So also the slothful servant who did not multiply his talent, and the Virgin who did not BUY extra oil for her vessel.
    In Matthew 13:43, "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. ... " are those diligent Christians who lived righteously
    In Matthew 13:47, "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind" we have Gentiles (depicted by the sea in Parable) who are SUBJECTS in this age of "regeneration", or in the Lake of Fire. See also Matthew 25:31-46.
    In Matthew 16:19, "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" we have Christians, members of the Church.

    Thus, this threat is aimed at ALL men and has limits - THIS AGE and the NEXT AGE. On the New earth after the Millennium it has no force.

    Mark 3:28-29 is stronger than Matthew 12. It reads;
    28 "Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
    29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:"


    Does it contradict Matthew 12? According to Vine the meaning of the word "eternal" must be defined by the context. The word comes from the same root word "aion" in Matthew 12 - that is, "the AGE". Vine says; "Usage Notes: "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty-six places in the NT" (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old Testament and New Testament Words). So the last part of Mark 3:29 can read; "but is in danger of damnation for the purpose of the ages" So it is rendered in Ephesians 3:11 by both Darby and Young's Literal translations - "according to [the] purpose of the ages, which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord." If one takes the context of Ephesians 3:11 it is the Church, and the Church is only revealed in this age FOR the next ages. So Darby and Young seem to render it more accurately than the other translations which say; "According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord"

    Finally, the wording of Mark is "in danger of". It is not as emphatic at Matthew 12:32. Matthew guarantees no forgiveness in this age and the next, but Mark 3;28-29 says they are but "in danger of".

    From this case we may learn that if something is obviously good, and obviously from a supernatural force, we all should be very careful to "speak against it". You must be very sure before you consign its source to an other than the Holy Spirit. We have a glaring example of this in Matthew 7:23. At the Judgement Seat of Christ, disciples of His, that is, Christians, will give account of themselves and claim works that only Christians could do. But the Lord's answer is; "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." The Lord Jesus does not call the works that they did "iniquity" for only a Christian can, by the power of the Holy Spirit, cast out a demon (Mk.16:17). He calls THE DISCIPLES - "ye" - workers of iniquity. WHY? Because they were invested with power to do things, but did them WITHOUT ORDERS! The context is "the WILL of the Father in heaven". Paul was empowered to preach the gospel everywhere to Gentiles, but his ORDERS were not to go to Asia and Bithynia BUT Macedonia (Act.16:6-9). It is good to pay attention to the grammar. A Christian might be a rebel, but if his/her works show the signs of the Holy Spirit - best be silent on the matter.

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    Re: Sin against the Holy Spirit

    Simplistically speaking, there are 3 points.
    1. EVERY kingdom, not just Satan's kingdom, cannot stand if it is divided, v.26.
    2. Casting out devils is a manifest token that is part of the kingdom of God, v.28.
    3. Forgiveness does not come in this world or the world to come helps to qualify the meaning of forgiveness of sins. Forgiveness ultimately means that our sins will not come into God's mind, nor will there be any remembrance in our hearts and minds in the resurrection. This is a corollary to God writing his commandments on our hearts and minds. We will have no remembrance of any past sins that we have committed. This is reiterated here:

    Rom 7:15-20 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

    Paul says it twice for clarity. I do things contrary to the law because SIN DWELLS IN ME.

    Blessings
    The PuP

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    Re: Sin against the Holy Spirit

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    Simplistically speaking, there are 3 points.
    1. EVERY kingdom, not just Satan's kingdom, cannot stand if it is divided, v.26.
    2. Casting out devils is a manifest token that is part of the kingdom of God, v.28.
    3. Forgiveness does not come in this world or the world to come helps to qualify the meaning of forgiveness of sins. Forgiveness ultimately means that our sins will not come into God's mind, nor will there be any remembrance in our hearts and minds in the resurrection. This is a corollary to God writing his commandments on our hearts and minds. We will have no remembrance of any past sins that we have committed. This is reiterated here:

    Rom 7:15-20 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

    Paul says it twice for clarity. I do things contrary to the law because SIN DWELLS IN ME.

    Blessings
    The PuP
    I'm not sure how the above explains why sin against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven. But thanks for taking the time to share your views.

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    Re: Sin against the Holy Spirit

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The following are considerations in this matter:

    Just to be precise, it is a "sin" but the actual wording in Matthew 12:32 is; "And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this AGE, neither in the AGE to come." According to the context, "speaks a word against" is to attribute an obvious work of the Holy Spirit to another power. During our Lord ministry He did many and wonderful miracles. But nearly all of them can be found having been done by God in the Old Testament including raising the dead. TWO miracles are NOT found in the Old Testament. They are healing the blind and casting out demons. The case in Matthew 12:22 was BOTH demon possessed AND blind. The Jews knew who Jesus was because in the Parable of the Vineyard in Matthew Chapter 21, it says they knew that Jesus spoke of "them" (v.45). So, they knowingly attributed marvelous works that had never been done before to the Holy Spirit.
    Notice that against the "Son of MAN" it will be forgiven. It is those who go against God the Spirit that the threat is leveled. Paul is a prime example. He spoke against Jesus - THE MAN and killed those who called on His Name. But he thought he was doing God a favor. So he did not speak against the Holy Spirit. He is forgiven.

    But Ananais and Sapphira defamed the Holy Spirit. In the preamble to their lie it reads in Acts 4:31-37 that the Holy Spirit was in great evidence (vs. 31, 33). So when Ananias and Sapphira pretended to have given all, because they were in a Company which displayed the powers of the Holy Spirit, they made it as is if the Holy Spirit was deceitful. Ananias and Sapphira were Christians, members of the Church, who were not only slain in this age, but will not be allowed into the Millennial Kingdom either. It would do us all good to pause here because on this Forum, a few times over the years, I have witnessed a brother (or sister), who did not understand a certain exposition of scripture, say that it was a doctrine of the Devil. It was not. It was just that he/she had never been faced with it before. Rather, when faced with a controversial teaching, it is best to withdraw to consider it before attributing it to the Devil. The brother who brought that doctrine, if it is correct, has it from the Holy Spirit (Jn.14:26). There is not one correct doctrine on this Forum that was not given by the Holy Spirit. Even the most intellectual of us cannot do anything without it being given him (Jn.3:27).

    The matter is one of the Kingdom, or a "Governmental issue. The next age is the Millennial Kingdom of Jesus and anyone not found worthy is excluded from this Kingdom. From various scriptures we see that this can happen to an Israelite, a Christian and/or a Gentile.
    In Matthew 8:12, "... the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth" are Jews who should have had the Kingdom but refused it.
    In Matthew 13:41, "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity" are Christians. They are already IN the Kingdom and are cast out for "OFFENSE". So also the slothful servant who did not multiply his talent, and the Virgin who did not BUY extra oil for her vessel.
    In Matthew 13:43, "Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. ... " are those diligent Christians who lived righteously
    In Matthew 13:47, "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind" we have Gentiles (depicted by the sea in Parable) who are SUBJECTS in this age of "regeneration", or in the Lake of Fire. See also Matthew 25:31-46.
    In Matthew 16:19, "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" we have Christians, members of the Church.

    Thus, this threat is aimed at ALL men and has limits - THIS AGE and the NEXT AGE. On the New earth after the Millennium it has no force.

    Mark 3:28-29 is stronger than Matthew 12. It reads;
    28 "Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
    29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:"


    Does it contradict Matthew 12? According to Vine the meaning of the word "eternal" must be defined by the context. The word comes from the same root word "aion" in Matthew 12 - that is, "the AGE". Vine says; "Usage Notes: "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty-six places in the NT" (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old Testament and New Testament Words). So the last part of Mark 3:29 can read; "but is in danger of damnation for the purpose of the ages" So it is rendered in Ephesians 3:11 by both Darby and Young's Literal translations - "according to [the] purpose of the ages, which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord." If one takes the context of Ephesians 3:11 it is the Church, and the Church is only revealed in this age FOR the next ages. So Darby and Young seem to render it more accurately than the other translations which say; "According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord"

    Finally, the wording of Mark is "in danger of". It is not as emphatic at Matthew 12:32. Matthew guarantees no forgiveness in this age and the next, but Mark 3;28-29 says they are but "in danger of".

    From this case we may learn that if something is obviously good, and obviously from a supernatural force, we all should be very careful to "speak against it". You must be very sure before you consign its source to an other than the Holy Spirit. We have a glaring example of this in Matthew 7:23. At the Judgement Seat of Christ, disciples of His, that is, Christians, will give account of themselves and claim works that only Christians could do. But the Lord's answer is; "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." The Lord Jesus does not call the works that they did "iniquity" for only a Christian can, by the power of the Holy Spirit, cast out a demon (Mk.16:17). He calls THE DISCIPLES - "ye" - workers of iniquity. WHY? Because they were invested with power to do things, but did them WITHOUT ORDERS! The context is "the WILL of the Father in heaven". Paul was empowered to preach the gospel everywhere to Gentiles, but his ORDERS were not to go to Asia and Bithynia BUT Macedonia (Act.16:6-9). It is good to pay attention to the grammar. A Christian might be a rebel, but if his/her works show the signs of the Holy Spirit - best be silent on the matter.
    Thanks for your comments.

  6. #6

    Re: Sin against the Holy Spirit

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Why is it that sin against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven whereas it may be forgiven against Jesus (Matt 12:32)?
    Jesus shed His blood for our sins, and our sins are washed white as snow, through the blood of the Lamb, forgiven. Apparently, the Holy Spirit is set apart from this aspect of God's love. Jesus is the Word made flesh, and so we go with what He said.

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    Re: Sin against the Holy Spirit

    Quote Originally Posted by Alert View Post
    Jesus shed His blood for our sins, and our sins are washed white as snow, through the blood of the Lamb, forgiven. Apparently, the Holy Spirit is set apart from this aspect of God's love. Jesus is the Word made flesh, and so we go with what He said.
    And Jesus said; "And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come" (Matthew 12:32). I agree. We go with what our Lord Jesus said.

    But as to God's love, it is great and seemingly has no boundaries. But it has boundaries. God is a God of order. Everything has governing principles. The earth has gravity and though God loves, it will not stop death for the man or woman who jumps off a high building. The Gentiles rule the earth, and God says that He has put the "basest of men" as rulers (Dan.4:17). Shall we ignore this "base" ruler? No! We are commanded to submit to him because he bears GOD'S SWORD (Rom.13:4). And so, even though He was loved above all men by God, our Lord Jesus would not throw Himself down from the Temple's roof. God's has a government in nature, He has a government among men and He has a government in the Godhead. This government allows the folly of speaking against a Man - Jesus, but it forbids the speaking against God the Spirit. God's LOVE is that He warns us!

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    Re: Sin against the Holy Spirit

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Why is it that sin against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven whereas it may be forgiven against Jesus (Matt 12:32)?
    The Spirit is the presence of God near us, showing us His truths. If we reject Him as the basis of all spiritual truth we will have no spiritual truth by which to get saved.

    In other words, salvation truth is received spiritually, and not by external works alone. Unless God Himself is received, there is no salvation.

    True faith is an experience of God, in which we receive Him and His truth. It is not just believing in His truthfulness, but more, accepting that truthfulness in a spiritual way. It is receiving Him and acting upon His word in a spiritual way.

    Any rejection of Christian spirituality is in essence rejecting Christian salvation. We may reject spirituality if it is being falsely represented to us as something that appears "evil" to us. Jesus may appear to be an "evil man" to us, before we're saved.

    But in rejecting Jesus we are not lost. It is when we recognize his spirit for what it really is that constitutes blasphemy of the Spirit. If you see God's love, and reject it, you've lost out on God's love.

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    Re: Sin against the Holy Spirit

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Why is it that sin against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven whereas it may be forgiven against Jesus (Matt 12:32)?
    Because the Holy Spirit is both the One who convicts of sin and the Agent of regeneration. If you cut him off there's no access to salvation. If a person feels conviction for sin and still desires to be saved, he or she has not committed this sin.
    Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

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