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Thread: Sabbath Sunday essay 2

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    Sabbath Sunday essay 2

    “Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my Sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.” Exodus 31:13.
    “I suggest that the seventh day Sabbath; does not have to be reiterated in detail, because it's Jerusalem; that all Jewish people and everyone is keeping the Shabot. There's no reason to chastise them for that.”
    Jim possibly suggests incorrectly. The final actual Sabbath command; needs to get figured out. A lot of Jews; like the very last 1 I spoke to, to date; believes they have exclusive access to Yahweh. This guy refused to be so much as a Messianic Jew, as he refused to “believe in human sacrifice”; and through a very heated discussion on our phones for a while; after finally some miscommunication; he and I never spoke again.
    For some reason; Jim doesn't talk about Ex 31:13; Neh 9:13-14; and now goes straight to the New Testament. Where the word, “Sabbath” is found variously; with no command for the modern day church to keep.
    Matt 5:17 is not specifying about the very 10 commandments; but is saying commandments; therefore there is no fear of judgment on accountability day; for going to a KJB church on “Sunday”; Romans 14:5 as even an inurged Adventist admitted before he showed his inurged dislike of Sunday. Yet there will be judgment for those who choose to abide to Jim; who go very conveniently, to a Seventh day Adventist church.
    ”Revelation 21 tells us exactly when Sabbath is done away with.” I'm looking at this verse; and I see no Sabbath command; or a Sabbath expiration time; I see nothing about Sabbath explained or spoke of here. All I see is about a new heaven and a new earth; compared to the 1st heaven and earth.
    Commands were talked about in Matt 5:17. The 10C were not stressed at all; there are more commands; than the 10C. And Jesus never commanded Sabbath.
    “I also suggest the Sabbath is not the least of the commandments” That will be Jim's emotionally charged statement. “It is 1 of the top 5; 1 of the greatest.” That could be another emotional statement.
    My “Apocalypse” Letter Jesse C. Wycoff
    Jim and Chris
    The ”greatest“ commandment? “Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.“ Matthew 22:37-38.
    Jesus broke Sabbath; John 5:18; which Jim isn't talking about; and he again warns about those who will be the “least” in Yahweh's kingdom, Matt 5:17.
    “The Sabbath is included in a generic; over umbrella of the commandments itself.” Huh? Romans 3:31.
    “We establish the law.”
    “The law undoubtedly included the Sabbath” As Jim insists. It was explained to me; that Paul was saying to follow law as best we can, meaning moral law; and yet he was also saying, don't concern about Sabbath. “Let no man judge you”, happens to mean; Don't worry about; even as some Adventists do volunteer; Don't worry about anybody making fun.
    “By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. “ 1 John 5:2.
    Very conveniently; “Sunday” commands weren't talked about at all. Lol There's no time for that in a 20 minute Sabbath presentation. And I have yet to hear his explanation about Gal 2:16.
    “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.“ Revelation 14:12.
    There are more commandments; than the 10C. Jim declared “Sabbath” is all over the New Testament; yet he doesn't explain whats going on with the very last time “Sabbath” shows up in Col 2:14-17.
    Keeping commandments can very easily mean; as Jim isn't explaining; keeping Sunday as Exodus and Leviticus explains.
    “If it's not enough in Genesis to Revelation; In the millennium we see the Sabbath.” So far what we DON'T see is a SABBATH in Genesis OR Revelation; no matter how much Jim wants to Sabbath reach.
    Jim points out Isa 66:22; and for some people, this can mean as simply as going to the only Sabbath church that is available in their area; Seventh day Adventism. Some states do accommodate with a non Ellen Sabbath church; yet not the Upper Peninsula of Michigan.
    Could Isa66:22 be saying that Sabbath will be reinstated, as of the millennial reign? In the New Jerusalem? At that time is fine. Yahweh's way; not a false prophets way.
    So far; the Sabbath WAS NOT given given to man in the garden; WAS given to the children of Israel; Ex 31:13; Neh 9:13-14 and will be reinstated in eternity Isa66:22.
    Nehemiah 9:13-14 confirms nobody in Genesis keeps Sabbath; so nobody can “forget” about it. Writing the 10C on stone; happens to mean nothing more than precisely that.
    Jesus did keep Sabbath; he also broke Sabbath; John 5:18, that Jim didn't address for some reason. And Jim doesn't say what Acts 20:7 is about.
    The Sabbath is “instituted”; REINSTATED in millennium.
    Now; Jim clearly either sees no point in talking about “Sunday” commands; or he doesn't know such commands exist; which could be the case. Ex Adventist outreach does offer testimonies of former Adventist, who are told at 1st that commands for “Sunday” don't exist.
    Until real biblical research reveals that such commands; do in fact exist and former Adventists now become Sundayers.
    Constantine only said the 1st “Sunday closure law”. This is so popular for Adventists to bring
    My “Apocalypse” Letter Jesse C. Wycoff
    Jim and Chris
    up. They need to blame somebody for the change, instead of recognizing that Yahweh does have “Sunday” commands; and what Constantine did, is always revealed.
    Whatever any pope said; they can say if they want. Christians kept Sunday; before any “pope” surfaced.
    Jim just said; “Pagan Sun God worship”. I have to assume Jim doesn't know about commands for “Sunday”. “Sunday” got it's name from Sun worship; just like every day of the week; get's it's name from something pagan, including Sabbath on SATURN DAY.
    Jim says the Sabbath was given at the beginning of time; and NO IT WASNT! And Gods intention was for all man; and for all time. And unfortunately Gods word says different; as Jim did not cover certain important key verses, that he really should've.
    Jim has done a very poor; Sabbath reaching job. This from Jim; should automatically lose him this debate.
    There is no Sabbath command in the garden. “Your eyes will be open; and you'll be able to worship him better” is not what the serpent said. And that's not the strategy that happened with the issue of Sabbath vrs “Sunday”.
    A Sabbath vrs “Sunday” deception as Jim describes; is not what's going on in the garden.

    Chris is doing alright so far.

    Jim concedes that early Christians were meeting on the 1st day of the week; which he didn't volunteer at 1st.
    Oops; Jim messed up again. Even as Col 2:14-17 says what it does; can we commit adultery? Murder? As Jim suggests? Not if those commands are reiterated.
    From Ex Adventist Outreach

    1st - Worship God -
    (53 times) Matthew 2:2; 2:8; 2:11; 4:9; 4:10; 14:33; 15:9; 28:9; 28:17, Mark 7:7, Luke 4:7; 4:8; 24:52, John 4:20,21,22(x2),23,24(x2); 9:38; 12:20, Acts 7:43; 8:27; 16:14; 17:23(x2); 18:7; 18:13; 19:27; 24:11, Romans 1:25; 12:1, 1 Corinthians 14:25, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:18, Hebrews 1:6; 9:1; 9:6; 10:2; 11:21, Revelation 4:10; 5:14; 7:11; 9:20; 11:1; 11:16; 14:7; 15:4; 19:4; 19:10; 22:8; 22:9
    2nd - No Idolatry -
    (20 times) Acts 15:20,29,17:29; Romans 1:25, 1 Corinthians 6:9; Chapter 8; 10:7,14; 12:2, 2 Corinthians 6:16, 1 Thessalonians 1:9, Galatians 5:20, Ephesians 5:5, Colossians 3:5, 1 Peter 4:3, 1 John 5:21, Revelation 2:14, 20; 9:20; 21:8; 22:15
    3rd - No Profanity -
    (4 times) Matthew 12:36, Ephesians 5:4, Romans 2:24, Revelation 16:9
    5th - Honor Parents -
    (6 times) Matthew 15:5, Matthew 19:19, Mark 7:10; 10:19, Luke 18:20, Ephesians 6:2
    6th - Murder -
    (7 times) Matthew 5:21; 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20, Romans 1:29; 13:9, James 2:11
    My “Apocalypse” Letter Jesse C. Wycoff
    Jim and Chris
    7th - Adultery -
    (12 times) Matthew 5:27,28,32; 19:9,18, Mark 10:11,19, Luke 16:18;18:20, Romans 13:9, James
    2:11, 2 Peter 2:14
    8th - Stealing -
    (6 times) Matthew 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20, Romans 2:21; 13:9, Ephesians 4:28
    9th - Lying -
    (4 times) Matthew 15:9; 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20
    10th - Don't Covet -
    (9 times) Mark 7:22, Luke 12:15, Romans 1:29; 7:7; 13:9,Ephesians 5:3, Colossians 3:5, Hebrews 13:5, 2 Peter 2:14
    Jim is now rambling on; just about uselessly. Chris quoted scripture, and Jim can't deal with the scriptural possibility that the 4th commandment, does not apply to Christians.
    The constitution is not the issue of this debate. Jesus broke Sabbath; now what?
    Again; I only want to comment on highlights; not every word, not every statement.
    Jim argues that “Upon the first day of the week” 1 Cor 16:2; could really be meant to mean “Sabbath”. Unfortunately; that reads as it does; as we know that to read; and it coincides with Ex 12:16.
    I'm trying to consider that Jim has a point. Unfortunately; there's not enough here for me to starting praying for a KJB Sabbath church. My “Sunday” conscience remains clear.
    Chris explains the “8th” day as Sunday. So far Jim has not explained Ex 12:16; Lev 9:1-2; Lev 23:11-21.

    Jim again Sabbath reaches in Genesis. He tries to stress that Gen 26:5 is in fact about Sabbath; when the very word is nowhere in Genesis.
    For all Jim presumes to reveal that it seems Chris didn't; Jim still insists that Sabbath was given at creation; whereas Neh 9:13-14 says nobody in Genesis keeps Sabbath; that Jim never addressed. Nor did Jim address what more precisely Col 2: 16-17 is about. He didn't explain how to apply the final actual Sabbath command. How do I “let no man judge me”?

    Jim to Chris; “Do you believe that the Sabbath is part of the commandments of God?”
    As I presume to understand the more precise context of Jim's question; “the commandments of God” is referring to Jim's reading of those scriptures that talk about the commandments of God; and not specifying the 10C of God. Such as 1 John 5:2; Rev 14:12.
    Chris; “Yes it's in the Torah.”
    Jim; “So when Yahshua said to the 1 who asked him in Matt 19:6; how to inherit eternal life, do you remember what his answer was?”
    Jim meant Matt 19:16.
    Chris; “Yes; keep the commandments. 2nd table of the law/”
    Jim reiterates; “Keep the commandments. Do you still believe the Sabbath is part of the
    My “Apocalypse” Letter Jesse C. Wycoff
    Jim and Chris
    commandments of God?”
    Chris; “Oh yeah”
    Jim; “So you believe the Sabbath is part of the commandments of God; And he says to enter into eternal life; you should keep the commandments. So; do you admit that Yahshua is telling this man to keep the Sabbath; as part of his relationship to God?”
    Chris; “Absolutely” Did Chris hear the question?
    Jim asks if Sabbath keeping is part of the commandments in Matt 19:17. Even as some of the 10 are mentioned in these verses; Sabbath keeping isn't specified.
    Jim; “I can see I just won the debate; no”
    Chris seems amused; with a big smile. Not realizing Jim's question?
    Jim; “You did take me through a loop there. I wasn't expecting a “yes”
    “For the record; my opponent believes that Jesus just told the disciples to keep the Sabbath.”
    Chris; “No; he told that guy.” No Jesus didn't tell that guy. “That's prior to Jesus' fulfillment of the Sabbath.”
    “You mentioned earlier; that the Sabbath was not mentioned in the New Testament. Yet his intentions lead to Sabbath.”
    Jim again brings up; “The Sabbath was made for man; and not man for the Sabbath.” Again Jim stresses; this means the Sabbath was instituted at creation; and stresses All men. And he never talks about Neh 9:13-14.
    Jim; “Do you believe that the Sabbath was part of Gods law?”
    “Then what is the definition of sin?” This question suggests that Sabbath breaking is sin; which it is not; John 5:18. And John 3:16 says the standard for eternal life; and Sabbath keeping isn't in there.
    “Would you agree that if somebody breaks Sabbath; then they are transgressing the law?”
    That's right; Jim never talked about what John 5:18 is about. My Adventist acquaintance keeps insisting; “If Jesus had broken the Sabbath; he would have sinned.” No such statement is in the bible.
    Chris; “If you are an Israelite; under the Torah. Absolutely.”
    “You saying the Sabbath was only given to Israel?”
    Does Jim not know about Ex 31:13?
    Does Chris not know about Ex 31:13?
    “Absolutely”
    “I thought we just established; “The Sabbath was made for man?” And Jim never talked about Ex 31:13. “And Paul said; the entire world is guilty before God. You can't be guilty of breaking something ...”
    Jim; “Is it against the law for gentiles to keep the Sabbath?” I just about have to answer; Yes it is against the law; … we cannot keep Law Yahweh's way, James 2:10.
    Because of Jesus; Sabbath keeping is not required for salvation. We have “Sunday” commands; as such commands were not discussed; even as Jim stresses THE COMMANDS OF GOD! We have Col 2:14-17 as Jim didn't talk about 16-17; tied in with Gal 2:16.
    Jim; “You said; the law was only given to Israel. Is it against the law for gentiles to keep the Sabbath?” Actually that's; Sabbath was given to Israel, as a ceremonial law. We can't just keep Sabbath. Can a keeper possibly “break” Sabbath? Penalty is “death”?
    “Who was the New covenant given to?”
    “The whole world.”
    “I am grafted into Israel” I don't know about being “grafted” into Israel; I know of no such
    My “Apocalypse” Letter Jesse C. Wycoff
    Jim and Chris
    command.
    “If you grafted into Israel; that means your part of the Israel covenant, in which you just said; the Sabbath was given to?” I'm sorry; but Jim has a strong point on that.
    By saying he's “grafted” into Israel; strongly suggests Chris is bound to keep Sabbath.
    Adventists say they are the adopted children of Israel; because of Ex 31:13 that Jim never gets into; and Chris never points out.
    There is no command to be an Adopted child of Israel; “Adopted” is an emotionally charged position; so that Adventists can brainwash themselves, so to think that Sabbath applies to them; for their sake of the 4th commandment; as they deny “Sunday” commands.
    1 Cor 5:8; does this have anything to do with the need to keep Sabbath? To suggest what Jim is trying to; can be considered Sabbath reaching. Jim seemed to read; “The feast of passover”; which technically isn't part of 1 Cor 5:8.
    Jim said; “If we're going to keep passover”; in which the text technically doesn't read; “By extension; he would also be giving instructions to keep the Sabbath?”
    Not if there's no Sabbath mentioned. This is another example of Sabbath reaching.
    A very direct commandment; as Jim said? “Keep the feast”; isn't saying “keep the Sabbath”
    Jim; “I think the text is very clear” I don't see a clear Sabbath command. And why would Paul command a Sabbath there; as Sabbath isn't obvious anywhere there as Jim tries to Suggest; as the final actual Sabbath command is in Col 2:14-17 as Jim has not sufficiently explained?
    Jim's next question borders on unnecessary. Yes this debate is about Sabbath, and if Christians should keep Sabbath; yet Jim is trying to suggest that all there really is in Yahweh's word, is the command for Sabbath; very conveniently nothing has been spoke of “Sunday”; or even going in to those such commands, to try and explain what's really going on.
    All there is in my area is a cult Sabbath church; I will not be held accountable for not participating in Ellen's church.
    Jim doesn't have the point he thinks he has; as he's mentioning about Chris's wife maybe getting upset if Chris forgets an important day.
    Jim says Romans 14:5 is about fasting; and not about Sabbath. No it's not about Sabbath; Jim is right. I confess I'm not an expert on what Romans 14 is more precisely talking about; yet my “Sunday” conscience is clear that R14:5 is saying; go ahead to service on Sunday if you like.

    Chris to Jim. Finally they're discussing Col 2:14-17. And Jim wants to reach; “don't let them judge you; on the way your keeping Sabbath.” I see no ”on the way“ distinction.
    And as Jim reads v18; as that's a warning against false prophets like Ellen. Jim is trying to explain v18; as further validation of warning against falseness; as he's suggesting; who are trying to say Sabbath isn't necessary.
    Jim; “Don't let them judge you for the way your keeping Sabbath”; except ; “Or of the Sabbath days” invites no such distinction. Some Adventist want to make an issue about the “plurality” of Sabbath days that seems to be represented.
    V16 means simply; “Or of the Sabbath days” meaning Sabbath keeping; anyway we look at it.
    Jim seems to have confessed that any Sundayer has the same inheritance into eternal life; as he claims to have himself. There's a scene on Youtube; that suggests Jim won the debate; ...except according to Jim's confession now; Chris seems to have won the debate.
    Chris; “Am I an apostate because I don't keep Saturday Sabbath?”
    My “Apocalypse” Letter Jesse C. Wycoff
    Jim and Chris
    Jim; “I believe if you do not keep any commandment of God; that He actually meant what He said; that is a transgressing against the law.”
    Jim must be assuming that commands for “Sunday” don't exist.
    Jim has finally denied “Sunday” commands. I'll see about sending this report to both these guys. He's so wrong in his final statements. What's alright is to confess that 1 doesn't know the bible as they should; but to deny obvious commands, for “an holy convocation”; on a day that can so easily be described as “Sunday”; is severely irresponsible.
    In Jim's opinion on Chris; Jim's presentation; has not converted me to become a new Sabbatarian; lol no such KJB only Sabbatarian church exists in my area. So many important texts about who Sabbath was specifically given to; was not discussed.
    Again; Jim half quotes; “The Sabbath was made for man” as if he thinks this is proof enough that serving as a Sabbatarian, is the only way to live.
    Actually; Jim didn't explain how to apply, “Let no man judge you”; he only Sabbath reached into “on the way“ in which there is no such distinction.

    On Jim's recap; meetings are on the Sabbath, yes. The question remains; so Paul could attend service as a Sabbatarian himself; or to try and debate with the Sabbatarians?
    Jim can mention about the Catholic church changing the Sabbath to Sunday; yet scriptural fact remains; Ex 12:16; Lev 9:1-2; Lev 23:11-21 easily describe a day for “an holy convocation”; with the only exception being that Lev 9:1-2 doesn't say “an holy convocation”, on a day very easily described as “Sunday”; that Jim clearly doesn't know about; as I assume for offering nothing of an explanation about such verses, as everything was about in this debate; Sabbath, or he knows and believes talking about his interpretation is not important.
    Coming directly from the Roman Catholic church; doesn't change clear “Sunday” commands in Ex and Lev. It's my understanding that the Catholics admit to a lot of things; and my Adventist pastor associate admitted Christians assembled on “Sunday”; before the 1st pope. This is my 2nd time to have to say this; ...
    I will NOT be held accountable; for attending a KJB only “Sunday” church. This is a statement that I will take to my death day; to accountability day. Jesse Charles Wycoff. Underlined to signal a statement; a standard that I will never change my mind on; that will stand up to those times.
    Jim is hung up that Sabbath was created as of Gen 2:3; and he is very mistaken.
    Jim is now sadly, in dangerous areas; saying that “Sunday” is pagan. God sayed nothing about Sabbath in the garden; as Jim keeps saying.
    Again; I'm not being accommodated with a KJB only Sabbath church; therefore I will not be held accountable for attending a KJB only “Sunday” church. And again; Jim never explained what Nehemiah 9:13-14 is.
    And what Jim still didn't explain; except for a Sabbath reach; is how to apply “Let no man judge you”.

  2. #2
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    Re: Sabbath Sunday essay 2

    We (gentiles) are not grafted into the Covenant at Sinai. That pretty much destroys the arguments in this post.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

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    Re: Sabbath Sunday essay 2

    And shepherds over churches today... Sundays or even Saturdays if they held service on that day is their "day" of work.

    Meaning, they have to take their "Sabbath" on another day. During collage, when I took the Pastoral Leadership class, the professor gave us a list of 5 books that would be utilized for the class, but he also assigned another book. He told us that he understands that of the 5 class books, usually the only reading done is all about finding answers and nothing else in all 5 books will be read. However, he pleaded with the class that we read ALL of that 6th book... WHAT AN Eye opener.

    The author, when he was shepherding churches for many, many years... his "Sabbath" day was Thursdays.
    Slug1--out

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