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Thread: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

  1. #16
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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Or, you could provide scripture for God not being able to look at sin.
    Explain why 'hath laid on him our iniquity' equals 'wrath of God' we all collectively deserve 'laid on him', and explain how a man could endure it without God.

  2. #17

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Jesus says; "Father, why have you forsaken me .... ?"

    greenonions says; "Lord Jesus, your Father has NOT forsaken you?"

    Who shall we believe? But what is worse is that you pit one verse against another, making the Bible a contradiction and valueless. Shall we not reconcile the scriptures. To to that you have to deal with what our Lord Jesus said.
    Hi Walls. I think God did forsake Jesus. But what does "forsake" mean? I think it means that God did not help him and rescue Him from the cross. If you were in trouble, and I left you hanging there, I am forsaking you in one sense, even if I am standing nearby.

    The word for "forsake" in Psalm 22:1 is azab (H5800). Here is Strong's definition. Perhaps it could mean to loosen in the sense of not keeping Jesus tightly under God's protection?

    עָזַב ʻâzab, aw-zab'; a primitive root; to loosen, i.e. relinquish, permit, etc.:—commit self, fail, forsake, fortify, help, leave (destitute, off), refuse, × surely.

  3. #18

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    • Scripture says that our Lord Jesus asks God why He had forsaken Him. Can then the grammar be more clear? God had forsaken Him.
    • Scripture says that our Lord Jesus asks God why He was so FAR. What does forsake mean? To make a distance. Can the grammar be more clear
    • Scripture says that God was so far from the words of His roaring. What does the grammar say. That God took a distance from our Lord's roaring. What else is a distance but to forsake?
    • Little Jonny falls into the raging torrent. His father is on the bridge. "Father, Father, help me"!, cries little Jonny. Jonny's father runs from the bridge to the next town. Did his father forsake him? Or is the added distance "being with him?"

    Be true to the grammar.
    I discussed the meaning of forsaken in a different post. God was "Far from helping". You must agree that God is omnipresent, so the meaning of distance is not straightforward. I don't know why God would be far from the words of His roaring though... God certainly heard Jesus' words (Psalm 22:24) -- maybe it means that God did not respond in a way that Jesus could see at that time, unlike when God spoke from heaven (John 12:27-28)

    You must do three things here;
    1. Establish why the Lord Jesus categorically states that the Father forsook Him ON THE CROSS at the end of 6 hours, but this verse say that God was with Him. You have two options. (i) Reconcile the verses, or (ii) be one who declares the Bible a contradiction.
    2. Explain why you make this quote fulfilled on the cross when it was fulfilled in the Garden of Gethsemane? (Matt.26:56)
    3. Show whether the Father left our Lord Jesus in Gethsemane or Golgotha "in that HOUR"?
    I think that God forsaking Jesus by not helping him is not contradictory to God being with Jesus.

    It does not read; "... Christ, Who IN THE PRESENCE of the Eternal Spirit, offered Himself ... ." It is "... Christ Who THROUGH the Eternal Spirit, offered Himself ... ."
    1. "CHRIST" refers to His OFFICE, not His human person". That is, what He was anointed and appointed for.
    2. "Offered HIMSELF" refers to our Lord Jesus in His DEITY. It refers to John 10:18. "No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."
    3. "THROUGH" means what VEHICLE he used. Why must He use the "ETERNAL Spirit" as a vehicle? So that His death has ETERNAL VALUE. If it has TEMPORAL VALUE then He only died for those around Him. But if He wants to (i) deal with all sins ever committed then His sacrifice must be ETERNAL, (ii) say that He was "slain FROM the foundation of the world" (Rev.13:8), (iii) that He "became the author of an ETERNAL SALVATION" for us (Heb.5:9) - one that has permanent qualities, (iv) "obtain an eternal redemption for us" (Heb.9:12) - one that cannot be reversed, (v) "obtain ... eternal glory" by this salvation (2nd Tim.2:10; 1st Pet.5.10)

    We must be true to the word and not add our own meanings.
    The Eternal Spirit was an active participant in Christ's death. Can you do something "through" someone, with that someone being absent?

    Why does the participation of the Eternal Spirit change the value of Jesus' death? Isn't it the blood which makes atonement? You raise the idea of "temporal value" -- where does this come from? God decides whom to apply the blood to. He can apply to people near and far, long ago and in the future. Why would it be limited it to "those around Him" if the eternal spirit is not involved? The difference between the Old Testament sacrifices and Jesus' death is that Jesus was a man, not a goat or bull whose blood can never take away sins, even of those nearby (Hebrews 10:4). Those sacrifices only point to Jesus' sacrifice.

    Leviticus 17:11 NIV For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.

  4. #19

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Jesus is the name of a Man, son of a woman (Matt.1:21). He was God incarnate too by being the Son of God (Matt.1:18). But, as you have confirmed "separate from sinners". His FLESH was the Veil (Heb.10:20). That is, His humanity cam into contact with sinners but His deity was shielded from them, just as His humanity allowed men not be slain in the presence of the Almighty. That which came into contact with the profane was NOT his deity.

    And you do err saying that "Jesus as God became a Sin (or sin offering)". Jesus the MAN became all the offerings to appease God's perfect justice. God does not die, and God does not die for men. Only a MAN can do that. Romans 5:15; "But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one (man) many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many."
    Maybe I was not careful with my wording. Jesus is fully God and fully man. Jesus became a sin offering as a man, while He is at the same time God.

    God was with men. Jesus said His disciples saw God the Father.

    Matthew 1:23 NIV “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).

    John 14:9 NIV Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

    People will be slain in the presence of God if they try to approach God without His permission. They survive when God comes to see them or summons them.

    Exodus 19:20 NIV The Lord descended to the top of Mount Sinai and called Moses to the top of the mountain. So Moses went up 21 and the Lord said to him, “Go down and warn the people so they do not force their way through to see the Lord and many of them perish. 22 Even the priests, who approach the Lord, must consecrate themselves, or the Lord will break out against them.”

  5. #20

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Or, you could provide scripture for God not being able to look at sin.
    Hi Noeb, this is the verse that I've found. Not sure if Walls has another verse.

    Habakkuk 1:13 NIV Your eyes are too pure to look on evil;
    you cannot tolerate wrongdoing.
    Why then do you tolerate the treacherous?
    Why are you silent while the wicked
    swallow up those more righteous than themselves?


    It is part of the prophet's question, and the prophet is clearly very puzzled at this point about why God would side with the wicked Babylonians against Israel. Could the prophet be mistaken?

  6. #21
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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    "You are of purer eyes than to behold evil, and can not look on iniquity: why look you on them that deal treacherously, and hold your tongue when the wicked devours the man that is more righteous than he?"

    He can't, but he is doing so, and further more he is silent after doing so. He cannot look at it with approval. He cannot look at it w/o disapproval. Why then isn't he doing anything about it? How many times has it been asked, "why does God allow evil"?

  7. #22
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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Yeah, if separation is an issue that had to be dealt with, didn't Jesus have to experience it too? You hear all the time how man is separated from God, but if you go back to the beginning you'll find he never has been completely separated.
    I agree. If separation from God had been complete with the sin of Adam and Eve, I think the separation would've been eternal and irrecoverable. Good point!

  8. #23

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Jesus says; "Father, why have you forsaken me .... ?"

    greenonions says; "Lord Jesus, your Father has NOT forsaken you?"

    Who shall we believe? But what is worse is that you pit one verse against another, making the Bible a contradiction and valueless. Shall we not reconcile the scriptures. To to that you have to deal with what our Lord Jesus said.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    Hi Walls. I think God did forsake Jesus. But what does "forsake" mean? I think it means that God did not help him and rescue Him from the cross. If you were in trouble, and I left you hanging there, I am forsaking you in one sense, even if I am standing nearby.

    The word for "forsake" in Psalm 22:1 is azab (H5800). Here is Strong's definition. Perhaps it could mean to loosen in the sense of not keeping Jesus tightly under God's protection?

    עָזַב ʻâzab, aw-zab'; a primitive root; to loosen, i.e. relinquish, permit, etc.:—commit self, fail, forsake, fortify, help, leave (destitute, off), refuse, × surely.
    I realized that I should also check the meaning of the Greek and Aramaic, which may further specify the meaning of forsake.

    Matthew 27:46 NIV About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

    sabachthani G4518: thou hast left me; sabachthani (i.e. shebakthani), a cry of distress:—sabachthan
    enkataleipo G1459: to leave behind in some place, i.e. (in a good sense) let remain over, or (in a bad sense) to desert:—forsake, leave.

    I still think that God abandoned Jesus in the sense of not rescuing Him. God was within earshot, as Jesus cried out to Him expecting Him to hear.

  9. #24
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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    I believe that the separation God had with Man after the 1st sin was similar to a divorce decree. The divorced parties still lived, and the parties still knew and related to one another. But the covenant had been broken, and the relationship had changed.

    This may represent, somewhat, the separation God the Father and God the Son experienced at the cross. It appeared as if God's covenant of blessing towards Israel had been broken unjustly. Jesus had kept every word of God, and had never sinned. And yet he still was cursed.

    How could God have forsaken His holy Son? It was so that Jesus could bear human sin, experience it, and then forgive it.

    This kind of forsakenness is not existential, but rather, experiential. In experiencing sin, Jesus could forgive it.

    But it never had a thing to do with a separation between the man Jesus and his Deity. And the Father and the Son could never have become disunited in their shared divine substance!

    This was strictly like a marital separation which could be, and was, recovered. And similarly, the "marital separation" man experienced in his divorce from God in the beginning can be recovered, as well.

  10. #25
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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    I realized that I should also check the meaning of the Greek and Aramaic, which may further specify the meaning of forsake.

    Matthew 27:46 NIV About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

    sabachthani G4518: thou hast left me; sabachthani (i.e. shebakthani), a cry of distress:—sabachthan
    enkataleipo G1459: to leave behind in some place, i.e. (in a good sense) let remain over, or (in a bad sense) to desert:—forsake, leave.

    I still think that God abandoned Jesus in the sense of not rescuing Him. God was within earshot, as Jesus cried out to Him expecting Him to hear.
    OK. To each their own opinion. I think we have exhausted the arguments. God bless.

  11. #26
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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    You said this greenonions! Which btw I just sprinkled some "greenonions" on my homemade shrimp soup. (Lol)

    "I still think that God abandoned Jesus in the sense of not rescuing Him. God was within earshot, as Jesus cried out to Him expecting Him to hear." Ok, let me ask you this question? What would have happened if God the Father would have "rescued" Him? I mean to say, rescue Him from what? Remember something, and that is it was the predetermined plan for His Son to die on that cross. Acts 2:23, "this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of gldless men and put Him to death." And don't forget Genesis 3:15.

    IN GOD THE SON,
    maverick

  12. #27
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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    I realized that I should also check the meaning of the Greek and Aramaic, which may further specify the meaning of forsake.

    Matthew 27:46 NIV About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

    sabachthani G4518: thou hast left me; sabachthani (i.e. shebakthani), a cry of distress:—sabachthan
    enkataleipo G1459: to leave behind in some place, i.e. (in a good sense) let remain over, or (in a bad sense) to desert:—forsake, leave.

    I still think that God abandoned Jesus in the sense of not rescuing Him. God was within earshot, as Jesus cried out to Him expecting Him to hear.
    You said this greenonions! Which btw I just sprinkled some "greenonions" on my homemade shrimp soup. (Lol)

    "I still think that God abandoned Jesus in the sense of not rescuing Him. God was within earshot, as Jesus cried out to Him expecting Him to hear." Ok, let me ask you this question? What would have happened if God the Father would have "rescued" Him? I mean to say, rescue Him from what? Remember something, and that is it was the predetermined plan for His Son to die on that cross. Acts 2:23, "this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of gldless men and put Him to death." And don't forget Genesis 3:15.

    IN GOD THE SON,
    maverick

  13. #28
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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    I always find it interesting that some people take the position that Jesus was just quoting a prophetic psalm. Jesus wasn't just quoting a prophetic psalm, He was fulfilling it. I think that those who take the former approach are minimizing what happened on the Cross.
    Some people don't mind contradicting themselves as long as they can keep disagreeing with you...

  14. #29
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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    I always find it interesting that some people take the position that Jesus was just quoting a prophetic psalm. Jesus wasn't just quoting a prophetic psalm, He was fulfilling it. I think that those who take the former approach are minimizing what happened on the Cross.
    Totally right. I've just signed up for this right now! Don't you dare even try to claim a patent on it!

  15. #30
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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.


    If God will never leave or forsake us, why think he forsook his own son who is God as well?


    Some claim Christ was made sin (a figure of speech that means he was the sin offering NOT that he was sin) and that somehow meant the Father couldn't stand him or had to look away or something like that but the truth is God can be in the presence of any sinner whether literally or spiritually. He spent time with satan himself in heaven with no issues. The Father wouldn't have any reason at all to abandon or forsake his own Son! God fellowshipped with sinners like David and Moses and countless others. God won't fellowship with those that don't love him. Only those would he forsake and only because they forsake him first which is similar to when God forsook Israel. He only did so because they had committed religious adultery and fornication with false gods.



    Let's ask ourselves who really benefits from the theory that God the Father can forsake God the Son ie: one person of the Trinity forsaking another person of the Trinity? Satan benefits! Anti-Trinitarians benefit. It shows a weak Trinity who can turn their back against themselves yet in Job we see God having multiple conversations with the most evil, sinful being that has ever existed. So would God really turn his face from his own beloved Son and not turn his face from satan? Seriously, the doctrines people believe in astonish me at times!



    Mat 27:44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.
    Mat 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
    Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


    About the 9th hour Christ supposedly exclaims that God has forsaken him yet in Luke at the same time we see something quite different:

    Luk 23:44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
    Luk 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.
    Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

    So was he forsaken because God could not stand the sin he bore or was he confident he was about to be received into the hands of his Father who did not have his back turned to him and who was not forsaking him at all?


    Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
    Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
    Act 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
    Act 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
    Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    The Lord never left or abandoned Christ according to this.

    Clarke:

    For David speaketh concerning him - The quotation here is made from Psa_16:8-11 (note), which contains a most remarkable prophecy concerning Christ, every word of which applies to him, and to him exclusively.

    Gill:

    Acts 2:25
    For David speaketh concerning him,.... The Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ, in Psa_16:8. The whole psalm belongs to the Messiah, and everything concerning the person in it agrees with him; such as his trust in God, Psa_16:1 as he was man and Mediator; his very great regard to the saints, and delight in them, Psa_16:2 his disregard to others who were hastening after another God, or another Saviour, whose sacrifices, as an high priest, he would not offer up, nor make intercession for them, Psa_16:4 his exceeding great satisfaction in having the God of Israel for his portion, and in having his lot cast among his peculiar people, who were a delightful inheritance to him, Psa_16:5 his thankfulness for advice and direction in the time of his sorrows and sufferings


    Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
    Joh 16:29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
    Joh 16:30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
    Joh 16:31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
    Joh 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

    The disciples would abandon Christ but the Father never would! This is prophecy and Jesus is not a false prophet so his words are true. The disciples would leave him but the Father would not.

    Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.


    If God will never leave or forsake us, why think he forsook his own son who is God as well?


    Some claim Christ was made sin (a figure of speech that means he was the sin offering NOT that he was sin) and that somehow meant the Father couldn't stand him or had to look away or something like that but the truth is God can be in the presence of any sinner whether literally or spiritually. He spent time with satan himself in heaven with no issues. The Father wouldn't have any reason at all to abandon or forsake his own Son! God fellowshipped with sinners like David and Moses and countless others. God won't fellowship with those that don't love him. Only those would he forsake and only because they forsake him first which is similar to when God forsook Israel. He only did so because they had committed religious adultery and fornication with false gods.



    Let's ask ourselves who really benefits from the theory that God the Father can forsake God the Son ie: one person of the Trinity forsaking another person of the Trinity? Satan benefits! Anti-Trinitarians benefit. It shows a weak Trinity who can turn their back against themselves yet in Job we see God having multiple conversations with the most evil, sinful being that has ever existed. So would God really turn his face from his own beloved Son and not turn his face from satan? Seriously, the doctrines people believe in astonish me at times!



    Mat 27:44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.
    Mat 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
    Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


    About the 9th hour Christ supposedly exclaims that God has forsaken him yet in Luke at the same time we see something quite different:

    Luk 23:44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
    Luk 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.
    Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

    So was he forsaken because God could not stand the sin he bore or was he confident he was about to be received into the hands of his Father who did not have his back turned to him and who was not forsaking him at all?


    Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
    Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
    Act 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
    Act 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
    Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    The Lord never left or abandoned Christ according to this.

    Clarke:

    For David speaketh concerning him - The quotation here is made from Psa_16:8-11 (note), which contains a most remarkable prophecy concerning Christ, every word of which applies to him, and to him exclusively.

    Gill:

    Acts 2:25
    For David speaketh concerning him,.... The Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ, in Psa_16:8. The whole psalm belongs to the Messiah, and everything concerning the person in it agrees with him; such as his trust in God, Psa_16:1 as he was man and Mediator; his very great regard to the saints, and delight in them, Psa_16:2 his disregard to others who were hastening after another God, or another Saviour, whose sacrifices, as an high priest, he would not offer up, nor make intercession for them, Psa_16:4 his exceeding great satisfaction in having the God of Israel for his portion, and in having his lot cast among his peculiar people, who were a delightful inheritance to him, Psa_16:5 his thankfulness for advice and direction in the time of his sorrows and sufferings


    Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
    Joh 16:29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
    Joh 16:30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
    Joh 16:31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
    Joh 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

    The disciples would abandon Christ but the Father never would! This is prophecy and Jesus is not a false prophet so his words are true. The disciples would leave him but the Father would not.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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