When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

[randyk]

Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

If God will never leave or forsake us, why think he forsook his own son who is God as well?

Some claim Christ was made sin (a figure of speech that means he was the sin offering NOT that he was sin)…

Stop right there! That deserves a pause, and deserves both a pause and applause! I really enjoy that very clear statement. I hear that all the time, that Christ became "sin," and that God therefore completely disowned him, forsook him, and basically created a schism between the Father and the Son. Not! Thank you for that excellent explanation. Jesus was merely a *sin offering.*

...and that somehow meant the Father couldn't stand him or had to look away or something like that but the truth is God can be in the presence of any sinner whether literally or spiritually. He spent time with satan himself in heaven with no issues. The Father wouldn't have any reason at all to abandon or forsake his own Son! God fellowshipped with sinners like David and Moses and countless others. God won't fellowship with those that don't love him. Only those would he forsake and only because they forsake him first which is similar to when God forsook Israel. He only did so because they had committed religious adultery and fornication with false gods.

Let's ask ourselves who really benefits from the theory that God the Father can forsake God the Son ie: one person of the Trinity forsaking another person of the Trinity? Satan benefits! Anti-Trinitarians benefit. It shows a weak Trinity who can turn their back against themselves yet in Job we see God having multiple conversations with the most evil, sinful being that has ever existed. So would God really turn his face from his own beloved Son and not turn his face from satan? Seriously, the doctrines people believe in astonish me at times!

Thank you!

[greenonions]

OK. To each their own opinion. I think we have exhausted the arguments. God bless.

I thought I would have the chance to engage you more this time!

I have one more thought. Do you think Psalm 22 described David's experience, or it was all about Jesus? Because that might give insight into how God forsook David -- and it might be in the same sense that God forsook Jesus. David complained about many physical torments and emotional abuse, much of which we see in Jesus' experience too. The Bible says that God left Saul, but I don't think God left David. Even when David sinned, he prayed that God would not cast David from His presence or take His Holy Spirit from David (Psalm 51:11), which seems to mean that those things did not yet happen to David.

[ewq1938]

Stop right there! That deserves a pause, and deserves both a pause and applause! I really enjoy that very clear statement. I hear that all the time, that Christ became "sin," and that God therefore completely disowned him, forsook him, and basically created a schism between the Father and the Son. Not! Thank you for that excellent explanation. Jesus was merely a *sin offering.*



Thank you!

I am happy we agree on this since we disagree so much on other things. Isn't it so strange how we have agreements and disagreements and those same things change from person to person? Ppl that might disagree on this, will agree with me on things that you would disagree...haha

[ewq1938]

I thought I would have the chance to engage you more this time!

I have one more thought. Do you think Psalm 22 described David's experience, or it was all about Jesus? Because that might give insight into how God forsook David

I believe it is usually about David but some things are Messianic...but I don't believe God forsook David either...David in his own personal weakness doubted God.

-- and it might be in the same sense that God forsook Jesus.

God cannot forsake God...it's not possible and when David said God forsook him, David was wrong.

[Walls]

I thought I would have the chance to engage you more this time!

I have one more thought. Do you think Psalm 22 described David's experience, or it was all about Jesus? Because that might give insight into how God forsook David -- and it might be in the same sense that God forsook Jesus. David complained about many physical torments and emotional abuse, much of which we see in Jesus' experience too. The Bible says that God left Saul, but I don't think God left David. Even when David sinned, he prayed that God would not cast David from His presence or take His Holy Spirit from David (Psalm 51:11), which seems to mean that those things did not yet happen to David.

Sure. I don't mind discussing anything. It's just that the various arguments had been laid down and anything more than this just derails the tread.

I will answer you question about David presently but I must comment on the main argument produced by some of our esteemed brothers, especially ewq1938 in posting #30, that (i) God would never leave anyone - let alone His beloved Son, and (ii) God cannot leave God. For this he offers Hebrew 13:5 written to men who came from the law of Moses, and Luke 23:44-46 and Acts.2:23-27. No doubt, he would also like me to mention Matthew 28:20, "... and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the AGE. Amen." But do these verses show what he proposes?

First let scripture speak its clear message.
In Ephesians 4:17-19 it is;
17 "This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness."
In Colossians 1:21-22 we are told:
21 "And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:"
In Isaiah 59:2 it is; "But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear."
What about iniquities in Deuteronomyt 31:17, 32:19, Proverbs 15:29, Isaiah 57:17, Ezekiel 39:23-24 and Micah 3:4?Sin and sins alienate God and drive Him away.

So it is clear that sin "ALIENATES GOD" from a man. That said, we must deal with ewq1938's proffered verses for scripture cannot contradict itself.

Matthew 28:20 is quickly understood. God will be with disciples - Christians, ONLY UNTIL THE END OF THE AGE! Why? Because the Parables of the Kingdom, and direct statements (Gal.5:21; Eph.5:5) tell us that those Christians who are slothful, sinful and unfaithful will be cast OUT of the Kingdom and into OUTER DARKNESS. The good, diligent, faultless and loving Christians ENTER the "joy of the Lord". Our Lord's promise to be with us ends at the judgement seat of Christ. And since the casting OUT of slothful and sinful Christians is a fact, the Matthew 28:20 PROVES that God SEPARATES Himself from sinners.

Hebrews 13:5 is written to ex-Jews who used to embrace Moses and have now turned to Christ. The whole Book of Hebrews addresses the ex-Hebrew. That is why the Law and the Tabernacle are contrasted so many times. Under the Law of Moses, if a man obeyed Moses, he would automatically prosper and be wealthy (Deut.8:11-18). But now he obeys Christ and he becomes poor (Heb.10:32-34). Moses guaranteed wealth for obedience. Christ asks one to give away one's substance. The temptation is big for the ex-Jew to return to Moses. This is what the Book is about. So the author of Hebrews pleads with the ex-Jew Convert. He says in essence; "it might look bad giving away your money and goods. It might look like poverty is just over the hill you are climbing. But fear not! Do not covet temporal things. Do not hang onto them. Do not trust them. Give them away if need be. God guarantees food and clothing in the present age". It is in THAT SENSE that "God will never leave you neither forsake you". The issue of SIN and SINS is not addressed in Hebrews 13:5.

Luke 23:44-46. Man is made of THREE parts, body, soul and spirit (Gen.2:7; 1st Thess.5:23). And all through the Bible man is called a "soul". So the main part is the soul. Where the soul goes, this is where the man goes. The soul descends to Hades in the heart of the earth and stays there until the resurrection. So we learn that David is in Hades 50 days after our Lord Jesus rose from Hades (Act.2:27-34). At death the body returns to the dust on the surface of the earth. The human spirit returns to God Who gave it to wait to join the body and soul again. The human spirit is NOT the man. It is his enlivening organ (Jas.2:26). So throughout scripture we hear of men dying and "giving UP the spirit". Our Lord Jesus was a Man, and at death He gave UP His spirit (Lk.23:46). But our Lord Jesus was different to other men. John 10:18 tells us that; "No man taketh it (my life) from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." So exercising this POWER that the Father gave Him, our Lord Jesus determined the moment that He "gave UP (to God in heaven) His spirit". Thus, Luke 23:46 does not deal with SIN and SINS, but with normal death and the POWER given to Jesus before Golgotha. Finally, the bearing of our sins was, at that moment finished. As these were the last words of our Lord Jesus, He had already said "it is FINISHED". What would be "finished"? His life? NO! He still had some words and some actions to do. What was finished was His duty as the "bearer of sins" (Heb.9:28).

Thus, Luke 23:44-46 is NOT a proof of God not forsaking Jesus. It deals with other things.

Acts 2:22-27. I extend the context slightly. What does it say? Does it say that God is not alienated by sin and sins? It is surely prophecy of Jesus for verse 25 says that David spoke concerning Jesus. But equally it is spoken by a man, David. And what is the context. The crucifixion OR the time in Hades? The text speaks NOT of Christ the Substitute on the cross of Golgotha, but Christ the Soul "resting" in Hades (v.26) and being raised from Hades (v.24).

The word "foresaw" is FUTURE TENSE. It is the "seeing", or foresight of a man in Hades waiting for resurrection. Even if one would prefer to overturn the context and say that it occurred on the cross, even then it does not address sin and sins alienating God. Our Lord Jesus had the Father in view up to His last words on the cross. It was not Jesus who left the Father, but the Father Who left Jesus.

The phrase "for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved" MUST BE FUTURE because it is spoken from Hades under the earth. Is God in heaven or in Hades at the right hand of men like David? BOTH says Psalm 139:8! "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in HADES (sheol), behold, thou art there." But is this to do with God's alienation by sin and sins? No! It is to do with the hope of Paradise under the earth and resurrection and rapture to the sky. Did not Paul say in Philippians 1:23 concerning his DEATH:- "For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better". Acts 2:22-27 has as its context Hades. It does not address whether God must take a distance from sin and sins.

And lastly, the argument that God will not forsake God is MOOT! The One on the cross Who took upon Him our sins WAS A MAN, as I have shown in a previous posting (#11). Our Lord Jesus addresses Him as MY GOD! MY GOD! His speech is of a Man to HIS GOD. The word God is "EL" - a designation of God the STRONG and the Man in weakness. 2 Corinthians 13:4 shows the delineation: "For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you." Is God weak? No! It was a Man - crucified in weakness.

[ewq1938]

Our Lord Jesus addresses Him as MY GOD! MY GOD! His speech is of a Man to HIS GOD. The word God is "EL" - a designation of God the STRONG and the Man in weakness.

Word for word exactly what David wrote and not once did Christ ever address his Father as "God". He always spoke to his Father using the term Father. It is very clear Christ is quoting David not actually saying that God has forsaken him. The Trinity does not forsake itself nor is that possible.

In Isaiah 59:2 it is; "But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear."
What about iniquities in Deuteronomyt 31:17, 32:19, Proverbs 15:29, Isaiah 57:17, Ezekiel 39:23-24 and Micah 3:4?Sin and sins alienate God and drive Him away.

Jesus committed no sin so this does not apply to him.

Our Lord Jesus addresses Him as MY GOD! MY GOD! His speech is of a Man to HIS GOD. The word God is "EL" - a designation of God the STRONG and the Man in weakness.

Word for word exactly what David wrote and not once did Christ ever address his Father as "God". He always spoke to his Father using the term Father. It is very clear Christ is quoting David not actually saying that God has forsaken him. The Trinity does not forsake itself nor is that possible.

In Isaiah 59:2 it is; "But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear."
What about iniquities in Deuteronomyt 31:17, 32:19, Proverbs 15:29, Isaiah 57:17, Ezekiel 39:23-24 and Micah 3:4?Sin and sins alienate God and drive Him away.

Jesus committed no sin so this does not apply to him.

[randyk]

I am happy we agree on this since we disagree so much on other things. Isn't it so strange how we have agreements and disagreements and those same things change from person to person? Ppl that might disagree on this, will agree with me on things that you would disagree...haha

Yea, it's pretty strange, but I think we're all trying to test our beliefs against others. It's a refining process.

[ewq1938]

Just an observation:

The word for stone is 'aben' אבן . The stone was struck and split, from which poured living water.

I don't recall the stone splitting. Where is that found?

[greenonions]

You said this greenonions! Which btw I just sprinkled some "greenonions" on my homemade shrimp soup. (Lol)

"I still think that God abandoned Jesus in the sense of not rescuing Him. God was within earshot, as Jesus cried out to Him expecting Him to hear." Ok, let me ask you this question? What would have happened if God the Father would have "rescued" Him? I mean to say, rescue Him from what? Remember something, and that is it was the predetermined plan for His Son to die on that cross. Acts 2:23, "this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of gldless men and put Him to death." And don't forget Genesis 3:15.

IN GOD THE SON,
maverick

I was referring to God not rescuing Jesus from death and its associated suffering. Yes, Jesus knew what He had to do in the predetermined plan, but He still prayed about it.

John 12:27 ESV “Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? But for this purpose I have come to this hour.
Matthew 26:39 ESV And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.”
Hebrews 5:7 ESV In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence.

[ewq1938]

I was referring to God not rescuing Jesus from death and its associated suffering. Yes, Jesus knew what He had to do in the predetermined plan, but He still prayed about it.

And Jesus accepted his fate after that so where is this supposed forsaking? Jesus did what the Father wanted, the Father never left Christ (He was in Christ and they were one)...

[greenonions]

I don't recall the stone splitting. Where is that found?

Exodus 17:6 ESV Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock at Horeb, and you shall strike the rock, and water shall come out of it, and the people will drink.”

Psalm 78:15 ESV He split rocks in the wilderness
and gave them drink abundantly as from the deep.
16 He made streams come out of the rock
and caused waters to flow down like rivers.

Isaiah 48:21 ESV They did not thirst when he led them through the deserts; he made water flow for them from the rock; he split the rock and the water gushed out.

[greenonions]

Walls, thanks for continuing the discussion. The lesson from Acts 2 about Hades was very interesting. Do you think Paul went to Hades after he died too? I hope to respond later, but I decided to first search the Scriptures more so as to contribute something useful.

I propose another idea: God forsook Jesus in part, but not totally. I base this thought on the usage of the word forsaken (H5800). God abandoned/forsook Israel but did not make an end of them or forsake Israel.

Nehemiah 9:28 ESV But after they had rest they did evil again before you, and you abandoned them to the hand of their enemies, so that they had dominion over them. Yet when they turned and cried to you, you heard from heaven, and many times you delivered them according to your mercies. 29 And you warned them in order to turn them back to your law. Yet they acted presumptuously and did not obey your commandments, but sinned against your rules, which if a person does them, he shall live by them, and they turned a stubborn shoulder and stiffened their neck and would not obey. 30 Many years you bore with them and warned them by your Spirit through your prophets. Yet they would not give ear. Therefore you gave them into the hand of the peoples of the lands. 31 Nevertheless, in your great mercies you did not make an end of them or forsake them, for you are a gracious and merciful God.

This is similar to Psalm 22, where Jesus is left in the hands of His enemies, but Jesus is not totally rejected by God by the time we reach the end of the psalm.

Psalm 119:8 ESV I will keep your statutes; do not utterly forsake me!

[ewq1938]

Exodus 17:6 ESV Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock at Horeb, and you shall strike the rock, and water shall come out of it, and the people will drink.”

Psalm 78:15 ESV He split rocks in the wilderness
and gave them drink abundantly as from the deep.
16 He made streams come out of the rock
and caused waters to flow down like rivers.

Isaiah 48:21 ESV They did not thirst when he led them through the deserts; he made water flow for them from the rock; he split the rock and the water gushed out.

Thanks !

[Walls]

Walls, thanks for continuing the discussion. The lesson from Acts 2 about Hades was very interesting. Do you think Paul went to Hades after he died too? I hope to respond later, but I decided to first search the Scriptures more so as to contribute something useful.

I propose another idea: God forsook Jesus in part, but not totally. I base this thought on the usage of the word forsaken (H5800). God abandoned/forsook Israel but did not make an end of them or forsake Israel.

Nehemiah 9:28 ESV But after they had rest they did evil again before you, and you abandoned them to the hand of their enemies, so that they had dominion over them. Yet when they turned and cried to you, you heard from heaven, and many times you delivered them according to your mercies. 29 And you warned them in order to turn them back to your law. Yet they acted presumptuously and did not obey your commandments, but sinned against your rules, which if a person does them, he shall live by them, and they turned a stubborn shoulder and stiffened their neck and would not obey. 30 Many years you bore with them and warned them by your Spirit through your prophets. Yet they would not give ear. Therefore you gave them into the hand of the peoples of the lands. 31 Nevertheless, in your great mercies you did not make an end of them or forsake them, for you are a gracious and merciful God.

This is similar to Psalm 22, where Jesus is left in the hands of His enemies, but Jesus is not totally rejected by God by the time we reach the end of the psalm.

Psalm 119:8 ESV I will keep your statutes; do not utterly forsake me!

Every man who dies goes to Hades ("Sheol" in the Old Testament Hebrew). There is not s single case otherwise, including our Lord Jesus. There are various reasons that God has a "Place of the souls of dead men".

• A man is naked when he is dead. One cannot appear naked before God (Gen.3:10, 21; 2nd Cor.5:1-3)
• The dead are unclean (Nu.19:11, etc.).
• Death is diametrically opposed to God Who is Life (Jn.1:4)
• Death is God's grand and last enemy (1st Cor.15:26)

Paul went to Hades TWICE. Once in 2nd Corinthians 12:4 and again at death. The word "caught UP" in this verses is not quite correct. The Greek word "Harpazo" denotes movement BUT NOT DIRECTION. It should rendered as it is correctly rendered in Acts 8:39. In Philip's case the direction is horizontal because he was "found" in Azotus. Paradise is under the earth because our Lord Jesus said to the criminal who believed that they would be together in Paradise "that day" and our Lord "DESCENDED FIRST" (Eph.4:9) to the "heart of the earth" (Matt.12:40).

We can agree that God only forsokk our Lord Jesus temporarily. The death of our Lord Jesus is full of wonders;

1. He must, as the Lamb of God, be tested four days by men to see if He is without blemish. This test He passes admirably. The Jews, Judas and Pilate "found no fault" with Him.
2. Next, men are tested to see if they can kill Jesus if He does not want them to. He is given POWER by God that no man can kill Him (Jn.10:18). So after a terrible beating and crucifixion, 3 hours into the ordeal of the cross, our Lord is still alive
3. Next, God judges Him for the last 3 hours. Darkness at noon is a sign of G0d's judgement as only He has power over the sun and the light of the universe (Gen. Chapt. 1)
4. And it is ONLY for these THREE HOURS that God forsakes Jesus. It is during these last THREE HOURS that our Lord is judged and takes the retribution due to every man for every trespass. Yet, He is still not dead. He must, to the very end, give up His life VOLUNTARILY. And so the words, "into Your hands I commit my spirit". John 10:18 is fulfilled to perfection.
5. But the ordeal is not over. The innocent blood is shed, but will the Father accept it? What then is the proof that the Father accepted the death of Jesus? RESURRECTION! The wages of sin is death (Rom.6:23). If one little sin still remained then our Lord could not be resurrected. For the proof of this, our Lord, and the whole world, must wait THREE DAYS. I do not say that God forsook our Lord Jesus for three days. I say that the PROOF takes three days and our Lord must wait - but wait in "Paradise".

That the Father had most probably already accepted Christ's death and blood immediately is shown in the fact that God did not allow His Son's body to start decaying (Act.2:27, 31, 13:35-37).

Hope this helps a bit.

[Walls]

Word for word exactly what David wrote and not once did Christ ever address his Father as "God". He always spoke to his Father using the term Father. It is very clear Christ is quoting David not actually saying that God has forsaken him. The Trinity does not forsake itself nor is that possible.

The designation in Psalm 2:1 is "El". Its first mention is in Genesis 14:18; "And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God." It is derived from the word "strength" the "strength of the Almighty". The relationship of Jehovah and Jesus on the cross was not that of the Trinity. It was of the "Most High God" versus a Man

Jesus committed no sin so this does not apply to him.

Our Lord Jesus committed no sin. BUT ....
Isaiah 53:4-6: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."

Isaiah 53:9-12: "And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

2nd Corinthians 5:21: "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

1st John 3:5: "And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin."