Page 4 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 102

Thread: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

  1. #46
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    6,534

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    Exodus 17:6 ESV Behold, I will stand before you there on the rock at Horeb, and you shall strike the rock, and water shall come out of it, and the people will drink.”

    Psalm 78:15 ESV He split rocks in the wilderness
    and gave them drink abundantly as from the deep.
    16 He made streams come out of the rock
    and caused waters to flow down like rivers.

    Isaiah 48:21 ESV They did not thirst when he led them through the deserts; he made water flow for them from the rock; he split the rock and the water gushed out.
    Also:

    I Corinthians 10:2 "And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. "

  2. #47

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Sure. I don't mind discussing anything. It's just that the various arguments had been laid down and anything more than this just derails the tread.

    I will answer you question about David presently but I must comment on the main argument produced by some of our esteemed brothers, especially ewq1938 in posting #30, that (i) God would never leave anyone - let alone His beloved Son, and (ii) God cannot leave God. For this he offers Hebrew 13:5 written to men who came from the law of Moses, and Luke 23:44-46 and Acts.2:23-27. No doubt, he would also like me to mention Matthew 28:20, "... and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the AGE. Amen." But do these verses show what he proposes?

    First let scripture speak its clear message.
    In Ephesians 4:17-19 it is;
    17 "This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
    18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
    19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness."

    In Colossians 1:21-22 we are told:
    21 "And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
    22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:"
    I appreciate your post. I agree that sinners are alienated from God.

    In Isaiah 59:2 it is; "But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear."
    This could be the source of the teaching [which I disagree with] that God hid His face from Jesus when He was on the cross.

    Isaiah 59:1 WEB Behold, Yahweh’s hand is not shortened, that it can’t save;
    nor his ear dull, that it can’t hear.
    2 But your iniquities have separated you and your God,
    and your sins have hidden his face from you,
    so that he will not hear.


    The context is regarding God listening to the Jews' prayer for God to save them. God did not hear their prayer. Was this the case with Jesus? No. God heard His prayers. God did not hide His face from Jesus. So the description in Isaiah 59:2 does not match Jesus' case. Therefore "your iniquities have separated you and your God" does not apply to Jesus either.

    Hebrews 5:7 WEB He, in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and petitions with strong crying and tears to him who was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear,
    Psalm 22:24 WEB For he has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, Neither has he hidden his face from him; but when he cried to him, he heard.


    What about iniquities in Deuteronomyt 31:17, 32:19, Proverbs 15:29, Isaiah 57:17, Ezekiel 39:23-24 and Micah 3:4?Sin and sins alienate God and drive Him away.
    Yes, God sometimes forsakes Israel and hides His face from the wicked.

    So it is clear that sin "ALIENATES GOD" from a man. That said, we must deal with ewq1938's proffered verses for scripture cannot contradict itself.

    Matthew 28:20 is quickly understood. God will be with disciples - Christians, ONLY UNTIL THE END OF THE AGE! Why? Because the Parables of the Kingdom, and direct statements (Gal.5:21; Eph.5:5) tell us that those Christians who are slothful, sinful and unfaithful will be cast OUT of the Kingdom and into OUTER DARKNESS. The good, diligent, faultless and loving Christians ENTER the "joy of the Lord". Our Lord's promise to be with us ends at the judgement seat of Christ. And since the casting OUT of slothful and sinful Christians is a fact, the Matthew 28:20 PROVES that God SEPARATES Himself from sinners.
    I see Matthew 28:20 differently. I think Jesus gave the disciples the promise that lasted only until the end of the age because that is the period of time when they cannot see Jesus on earth. When Christians meet Jesus in the air, they will be with the Lord forever. For your reasoning to work, the slothful and sinful Christians would not meet Jesus in the clouds. Your reasoning would work for slothful and sinful Christians that were hypocrites (actors pretending to be Christians) or who were not saved.

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 WEB then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.

    Hebrews 13:5 is written to ex-Jews who used to embrace Moses and have now turned to Christ. The whole Book of Hebrews addresses the ex-Hebrew. That is why the Law and the Tabernacle are contrasted so many times. Under the Law of Moses, if a man obeyed Moses, he would automatically prosper and be wealthy (Deut.8:11-18). But now he obeys Christ and he becomes poor (Heb.10:32-34). Moses guaranteed wealth for obedience. Christ asks one to give away one's substance. The temptation is big for the ex-Jew to return to Moses. This is what the Book is about. So the author of Hebrews pleads with the ex-Jew Convert. He says in essence; "it might look bad giving away your money and goods. It might look like poverty is just over the hill you are climbing. But fear not! Do not covet temporal things. Do not hang onto them. Do not trust them. Give them away if need be. God guarantees food and clothing in the present age". It is in THAT SENSE that "God will never leave you neither forsake you". The issue of SIN and SINS is not addressed in Hebrews 13:5.
    I was thinking exactly about this forsaking in terms of withholding temporal benefits with regards to Jesus. And I also thought about this verse in Hebrews 13:5. If forsaking means allowing one to suffer hunger or other things, then God has forsaken Christians and broken this promise. But that cannot be. If God forsook Jesus in a total sense, then Hebrews 13:5 would be comfort that Jesus would never forsake His people in an total sense (not just temporal things), which you do not agree with. So your option of having different levels/kinds of forsaking would solve the problem. That's why I proposed the idea of forsaking in a temporal and partial sense with regards to Jesus' suffering, and forsaking in a total sense here in Hebrews 13:5. Your words actually lend support to the possibility of my alternate view of how Jesus was forsaken in the realm of temporal things.

    Luke 23:44-46. Man is made of THREE parts, body, soul and spirit (Gen.2:7; 1st Thess.5:23). And all through the Bible man is called a "soul". So the main part is the soul. Where the soul goes, this is where the man goes. The soul descends to Hades in the heart of the earth and stays there until the resurrection. So we learn that David is in Hades 50 days after our Lord Jesus rose from Hades (Act.2:27-34). At death the body returns to the dust on the surface of the earth. The human spirit returns to God Who gave it to wait to join the body and soul again. The human spirit is NOT the man. It is his enlivening organ (Jas.2:26). So throughout scripture we hear of men dying and "giving UP the spirit". Our Lord Jesus was a Man, and at death He gave UP His spirit (Lk.23:46). But our Lord Jesus was different to other men. John 10:18 tells us that; "No man taketh it (my life) from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." So exercising this POWER that the Father gave Him, our Lord Jesus determined the moment that He "gave UP (to God in heaven) His spirit". Thus, Luke 23:46 does not deal with SIN and SINS, but with normal death and the POWER given to Jesus before Golgotha. Finally, the bearing of our sins was, at that moment finished. As these were the last words of our Lord Jesus, He had already said "it is FINISHED". What would be "finished"? His life? NO! He still had some words and some actions to do. What was finished was His duty as the "bearer of sins" (Heb.9:28).

    Thus, Luke 23:44-46 is NOT a proof of God not forsaking Jesus. It deals with other things.
    [Detour Ahead!] I think the soul/spirit/heart are describing the same invisible part of man. Each word has shades of meaning. Soul represents the life. Spirit is nonphysical, and is set in contrast to the body or the flesh. The heart represents something that is hidden inside, so the heart is never mentioned outside the body like the soul or the spirit. In Gen. 2:7 the breath of life results in a soul -- clearly the spirit and the soul are closely related. 1 Thess 5:23 has a list of three: body, soul, spirit, but so does Deuteronomy 6:5: heart, soul, might, but I think heart and soul overlap (Mark 12:30 and Luke 10:27 add "mind" too).

    The spirit has personality and emotions, which could be attributed to a man. It can diligently inquire.

    1 Samuel 1:15 WEB Hannah answered, “No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit. I have not been drinking wine or strong drink, but I poured out my soul before Yahweh.
    Job 7:11 WEB “Therefore I will not keep silent. I will speak in the anguish of my spirit. I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.
    1 Kings 21:5 WEB But Jezebel his wife came to him, and said to him, “Why is your spirit so sad, that you eat no bread?”
    Daniel 5:20 WEB But when his heart was lifted up, and his spirit was hardened so that he dealt proudly, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him:
    Deuteronomy 2:30 WEB But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him; for Yahweh your God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into your hand, as it is today.
    Psalm 34:18 WEB Yahweh is near to those who have a broken heart, and saves those who have a crushed spirit.
    Psalm 51:10 WEB Create in me a clean heart, O God. Renew a right spirit within me.
    Psalm 77:6 WEB I remember my song in the night. I consider in my own heart; my spirit diligently inquires:

    Act.2:27-34 does not say that David's soul is in Hades on Pentecost. David's body is in a tomb. It doesn't talk about David's soul

    Acts 2:22-27. I extend the context slightly. What does it say? Does it say that God is not alienated by sin and sins? It is surely prophecy of Jesus for verse 25 says that David spoke concerning Jesus. But equally it is spoken by a man, David. And what is the context. The crucifixion OR the time in Hades? The text speaks NOT of Christ the Substitute on the cross of Golgotha, but Christ the Soul "resting" in Hades (v.26) and being raised from Hades (v.24).
    The Psalm 16 was not necessarily all from the perspective of Hades.

    Psalm 16:3 WEB As for the saints who are in the earth, they are the excellent ones in whom is all my delight.

    David has delight from the saints who are alive on the earth. He sees them because He is alive on the earth too. If David was in Hades, he could delight in memories of saints in the earth, and many of those saints that he remembers would be in Hades too.

    Psalm 16:7 WEB I will bless Yahweh, who has given me counsel. Yes, my heart instructs me in the night seasons.

    I'm not sure why the people in Sheol/Hades cannot praise God. Maybe they can't praise in a way that people on earth can hear.

    Isaiah 38:18 WEB For Sheol can’t praise you. Death can’t celebrate you. Those who go down into the pit can’t hope for your truth. 19 The living, the living, he shall praise you, as I do today. The father shall make known your truth to the children.

    Also, "night" sounds like a concept that is only relevant on the surface of the earth.

    The word "foresaw" is FUTURE TENSE. It is the "seeing", or foresight of a man in Hades waiting for resurrection. Even if one would prefer to overturn the context and say that it occurred on the cross, even then it does not address sin and sins alienating God. Our Lord Jesus had the Father in view up to His last words on the cross. It was not Jesus who left the Father, but the Father Who left Jesus.

    The phrase "for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved" MUST BE FUTURE because it is spoken from Hades under the earth. Is God in heaven or in Hades at the right hand of men like David? BOTH says Psalm 139:8! "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in HADES (sheol), behold, thou art there." But is this to do with God's alienation by sin and sins? No! It is to do with the hope of Paradise under the earth and resurrection and rapture to the sky. Did not Paul say in Philippians 1:23 concerning his DEATH:- "For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better". Acts 2:22-27 has as its context Hades. It does not address whether God must take a distance from sin and sins.
    Acts 2:26 WEB Therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced. Moreover my flesh also will dwell in hope;

    The flesh/body will dwell in Hades in the future tense. So David could be speaking from the vantage point before being in Hades and talking about the future, or from Hades, talking about the present condition that continues into the future.

    And lastly, the argument that God will not forsake God is MOOT! The One on the cross Who took upon Him our sins WAS A MAN, as I have shown in a previous posting (#11). Our Lord Jesus addresses Him as MY GOD! MY GOD! His speech is of a Man to HIS GOD. The word God is "EL" - a designation of God the STRONG and the Man in weakness. 2 Corinthians 13:4 shows the delineation: "For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you." Is God weak? No! It was a Man - crucified in weakness.
    So you think God forsook the man Jesus, but God did not forsake God the Son? I don't think the Trinity is divisible, or else we are no longer monotheists.

  3. #48

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Every man who dies goes to Hades ("Sheol" in the Old Testament Hebrew). There is not s single case otherwise, including our Lord Jesus. There are various reasons that God has a "Place of the souls of dead men".
    • A man is naked when he is dead. One cannot appear naked before God (Gen.3:10, 21; 2nd Cor.5:1-3)
    • The dead are unclean (Nu.19:11, etc.).
    • Death is diametrically opposed to God Who is Life (Jn.1:4)
    • Death is God's grand and last enemy (1st Cor.15:26)

    Paul went to Hades TWICE. Once in 2nd Corinthians 12:4 and again at death. The word "caught UP" in this verses is not quite correct. The Greek word "Harpazo" denotes movement BUT NOT DIRECTION. It should rendered as it is correctly rendered in Acts 8:39. In Philip's case the direction is horizontal because he was "found" in Azotus. Paradise is under the earth because our Lord Jesus said to the criminal who believed that they would be together in Paradise "that day" and our Lord "DESCENDED FIRST" (Eph.4:9) to the "heart of the earth" (Matt.12:40).
    Yes, I think Jesus descended to Hades first and did not ascend to heaven on the day of His crucifixion.

    John 20:17 WEB Jesus said to her, “Don’t hold me, for I haven’t yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

    It does appear that Abraham's bosom and the paradise for the thief were in Hades, which still seems odd because the paradise in 2 Corinthians 12:4 is in the third heaven and the paradise in Revelation 2:7 has the tree of life, and is in the New Jerusalem on the New Earth. Then again, it's possible that Jesus' presence can make any place paradise.

    2 Corinthians 12:2 WEB I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I don’t know, or whether out of the body, I don’t know; God knows), such a one caught up into the third heaven. 3 I know such a man (whether in the body, or outside of the body, I don’t know; God knows), 4 how he was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

    But I don't think Paul was eager depart and be with Christ in Hades -- if you are banking on the fact that Christ is omnipresent, then Paul is just as close to Christ here on earth. Only going to heaven seems to adequately explain Paul's eagerness to die.

    We can agree that God only forsokk our Lord Jesus temporarily. The death of our Lord Jesus is full of wonders;
    1. He must, as the Lamb of God, be tested four days by men to see if He is without blemish. This test He passes admirably. The Jews, Judas and Pilate "found no fault" with Him.
    2. Next, men are tested to see if they can kill Jesus if He does not want them to. He is given POWER by God that no man can kill Him (Jn.10:18). So after a terrible beating and crucifixion, 3 hours into the ordeal of the cross, our Lord is still alive
    3. Next, God judges Him for the last 3 hours. Darkness at noon is a sign of G0d's judgement as only He has power over the sun and the light of the universe (Gen. Chapt. 1)
    4. And it is ONLY for these THREE HOURS that God forsakes Jesus. It is during these last THREE HOURS that our Lord is judged and takes the retribution due to every man for every trespass. Yet, He is still not dead. He must, to the very end, give up His life VOLUNTARILY. And so the words, "into Your hands I commit my spirit". John 10:18 is fulfilled to perfection.
    5. But the ordeal is not over. The innocent blood is shed, but will the Father accept it? What then is the proof that the Father accepted the death of Jesus? RESURRECTION! The wages of sin is death (Rom.6:23). If one little sin still remained then our Lord could not be resurrected. For the proof of this, our Lord, and the whole world, must wait THREE DAYS. I do not say that God forsook our Lord Jesus for three days. I say that the PROOF takes three days and our Lord must wait - but wait in "Paradise".

    That the Father had most probably already accepted Christ's death and blood immediately is shown in the fact that God did not allow His Son's body to start decaying (Act.2:27, 31, 13:35-37).

    Hope this helps a bit.
    Tested 4 days. Yes! I disagree that the first 3 hours were not God's judgment. Definitely only God has power over the sun (which is why the sun, moon, and stars are great for times and seasons, as people can't alter them). The darkness was also a judgment on the people.

    Amos 8:9 WEB It will happen in that day,” says the Lord Yahweh,
    “that I will cause the sun to go down at noon,
    and I will darken the earth in the clear day.
    10 I will turn your feasts into mourning,
    and all your songs into lamentation;
    and I will make you wear sackcloth on all your bodies,
    and baldness on every head.
    I will make it like the mourning for an only son,
    and its end like a bitter day.


    I've wondered about whether Jesus was committing suicide, but John 10:18 says that God gave Him power/authority/permission to lay down his life. I agree that the forsaking ended when Jesus said "It is finished".

    Galatians 3:13 WEB Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,”

    Thanks!

  4. #49
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    5,538

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    I appreciate your post. I agree that sinners are alienated from God.



    This could be the source of the teaching [which I disagree with] that God hid His face from Jesus when He was on the cross.

    Isaiah 59:1 WEB Behold, Yahweh’s hand is not shortened, that it can’t save;
    nor his ear dull, that it can’t hear.
    2 But your iniquities have separated you and your God,
    and your sins have hidden his face from you,
    so that he will not hear.


    The context is regarding God listening to the Jews' prayer for God to save them. God did not hear their prayer. Was this the case with Jesus? No. God heard His prayers. God did not hide His face from Jesus. So the description in Isaiah 59:2 does not match Jesus' case. Therefore "your iniquities have separated you and your God" does not apply to Jesus either.

    Hebrews 5:7 WEB He, in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and petitions with strong crying and tears to him who was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear,
    Psalm 22:24 WEB For he has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, Neither has he hidden his face from him; but when he cried to him, he heard.




    Yes, God sometimes forsakes Israel and hides His face from the wicked.



    I see Matthew 28:20 differently. I think Jesus gave the disciples the promise that lasted only until the end of the age because that is the period of time when they cannot see Jesus on earth. When Christians meet Jesus in the air, they will be with the Lord forever. For your reasoning to work, the slothful and sinful Christians would not meet Jesus in the clouds. Your reasoning would work for slothful and sinful Christians that were hypocrites (actors pretending to be Christians) or who were not saved.

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 WEB then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.



    I was thinking exactly about this forsaking in terms of withholding temporal benefits with regards to Jesus. And I also thought about this verse in Hebrews 13:5. If forsaking means allowing one to suffer hunger or other things, then God has forsaken Christians and broken this promise. But that cannot be. If God forsook Jesus in a total sense, then Hebrews 13:5 would be comfort that Jesus would never forsake His people in an total sense (not just temporal things), which you do not agree with. So your option of having different levels/kinds of forsaking would solve the problem. That's why I proposed the idea of forsaking in a temporal and partial sense with regards to Jesus' suffering, and forsaking in a total sense here in Hebrews 13:5. Your words actually lend support to the possibility of my alternate view of how Jesus was forsaken in the realm of temporal things.



    [Detour Ahead!] I think the soul/spirit/heart are describing the same invisible part of man. Each word has shades of meaning. Soul represents the life. Spirit is nonphysical, and is set in contrast to the body or the flesh. The heart represents something that is hidden inside, so the heart is never mentioned outside the body like the soul or the spirit. In Gen. 2:7 the breath of life results in a soul -- clearly the spirit and the soul are closely related. 1 Thess 5:23 has a list of three: body, soul, spirit, but so does Deuteronomy 6:5: heart, soul, might, but I think heart and soul overlap (Mark 12:30 and Luke 10:27 add "mind" too).

    The spirit has personality and emotions, which could be attributed to a man. It can diligently inquire.

    1 Samuel 1:15 WEB Hannah answered, “No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit. I have not been drinking wine or strong drink, but I poured out my soul before Yahweh.
    Job 7:11 WEB “Therefore I will not keep silent. I will speak in the anguish of my spirit. I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.
    1 Kings 21:5 WEB But Jezebel his wife came to him, and said to him, “Why is your spirit so sad, that you eat no bread?”
    Daniel 5:20 WEB But when his heart was lifted up, and his spirit was hardened so that he dealt proudly, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him:
    Deuteronomy 2:30 WEB But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him; for Yahweh your God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into your hand, as it is today.
    Psalm 34:18 WEB Yahweh is near to those who have a broken heart, and saves those who have a crushed spirit.
    Psalm 51:10 WEB Create in me a clean heart, O God. Renew a right spirit within me.
    Psalm 77:6 WEB I remember my song in the night. I consider in my own heart; my spirit diligently inquires:

    Act.2:27-34 does not say that David's soul is in Hades on Pentecost. David's body is in a tomb. It doesn't talk about David's soul



    The Psalm 16 was not necessarily all from the perspective of Hades.

    Psalm 16:3 WEB As for the saints who are in the earth, they are the excellent ones in whom is all my delight.

    David has delight from the saints who are alive on the earth. He sees them because He is alive on the earth too. If David was in Hades, he could delight in memories of saints in the earth, and many of those saints that he remembers would be in Hades too.

    Psalm 16:7 WEB I will bless Yahweh, who has given me counsel. Yes, my heart instructs me in the night seasons.

    I'm not sure why the people in Sheol/Hades cannot praise God. Maybe they can't praise in a way that people on earth can hear.

    Isaiah 38:18 WEB For Sheol can’t praise you. Death can’t celebrate you. Those who go down into the pit can’t hope for your truth. 19 The living, the living, he shall praise you, as I do today. The father shall make known your truth to the children.

    Also, "night" sounds like a concept that is only relevant on the surface of the earth.



    Acts 2:26 WEB Therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced. Moreover my flesh also will dwell in hope;

    The flesh/body will dwell in Hades in the future tense. So David could be speaking from the vantage point before being in Hades and talking about the future, or from Hades, talking about the present condition that continues into the future.



    So you think God forsook the man Jesus, but God did not forsake God the Son? I don't think the Trinity is divisible, or else we are no longer monotheists.
    Thank you for your comprehensive answer. I have read it all and noted it. May I point out that the points you addressed were an answer to another brother's proffered proofs that God did not forsake Jesus for those last three hours on the cross. My points were to show that these verses did not address God forsaking or not forsaking His Son. In that they are not expositions of these verses. They are a short explanation why they cannot be used by our esteemed brother. If I enter into your thoughts on these verses we will be sidetracked from the thread. I hope you will accept my not entering into their true meaning within their context. But you can always start a new thread if you want to discuss some of my points made. Thanks for your understanding.

    But I will answer two things.
    (1) I agree fully that the spirit of man is intelligent and animated. It is made of conscience, intuition and fellowship. It the Holy of Holies in a man where God lives (Jn.3:6). It is the Lamp of the Lord (Prov.20:27). It is man's life (Jas.2:26). I am aware of all these things.

    (2) The theme of the thread is whether the Almighty God ("El" - Heb.) forsook His only begotten Son Jesus for three hours on the cross. I maintain He did. My proofs summarized are thus;
    • The plain an unambiguous wording of scripture means what it says. To make it mean anything else is to make our Lord tell a lie and/or to make Matthew's report the not under inspiration
    • The relationship between God and Jesus while He was on earth was God versus creature, not one of the Triune God. Our Lord Jesus NEVER called Himself "the Son of God" in Matthew. Others did but He EXCLUSIVELY calls Himself "Son of man". Added to this, God cannot die, so to put the Deity of Jesus in view overturns the revelation of God as having ETERNAL LIFE.
    • The blood of animal sacrifices could not put away sins. Only a MAN can pay for men. Thus, Jesus THE MAN is offered on the cross
    • The revelation of God is that He is 100% just. Therefore our Lord Jesus had to pay for EVERY single sin ever committed. Thus, He is "made" sin for us, and took OUR sins upon Himself. God must deal with those those as He would have if it was US on the cross
    • The revelation of God is that He is a Holy God. When Aaron must enter the Holy of Holies that once a year, if he did one little thing out of order He would be slain. God does not have fellowship with sin and sins.
    • In this theme of the point above, God might look at sinners from afar, He might hear their prayers, He might descend from heaven to deal with them, but He, at all times remains SEPARATE from them. "Holy" means "SEPARATE". God could not join Himself to any sinning man, let alone a Man who was carrying ALL the sins ever committed.
    • We who live with sin and sins hourly think it is normal. That is why many posters cannot fathom why God would forsake His Son. But God God is DIAMETRICALLY opposed to sin. He is not only Holy, but ABHORS sin. If you are not sure of God's holiness then explain why "God's anger was kindled against Uzzah and He SMOTE him that he died (1st Chron.13:10).

    The scriptures for these arguments are richly laid down in my various postings. It is understandable that men and women in this age of grace like to think of God as benign and flexible. But human sentiment does not change the fact that our Lord Jesus died the most horrible of deaths BECAUSE he took upon Himself the portion due to men - men like Hitler, Stalin, Genghis Khan, child-rapists, thieves and murderers. What was coming to them fell on Jesus, and you can be sure that God does not join Himself, for example, to the murderers of six-million Jews. NO! Our Lord Jesus paid what had to be paid and for three hours God's WRATH and AFFLICTION abode on Him.

  5. #50
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    5,538

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    Yes, I think Jesus descended to Hades first and did not ascend to heaven on the day of His crucifixion.

    John 20:17 WEB Jesus said to her, “Don’t hold me, for I haven’t yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

    It does appear that Abraham's bosom and the paradise for the thief were in Hades, which still seems odd because the paradise in 2 Corinthians 12:4 is in the third heaven and the paradise in Revelation 2:7 has the tree of life, and is in the New Jerusalem on the New Earth. Then again, it's possible that Jesus' presence can make any place paradise.

    2 Corinthians 12:2 WEB I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I don’t know, or whether out of the body, I don’t know; God knows), such a one caught up into the third heaven. 3 I know such a man (whether in the body, or outside of the body, I don’t know; God knows), 4 how he was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

    But I don't think Paul was eager depart and be with Christ in Hades -- if you are banking on the fact that Christ is omnipresent, then Paul is just as close to Christ here on earth. Only going to heaven seems to adequately explain Paul's eagerness to die.



    Tested 4 days. Yes! I disagree that the first 3 hours were not God's judgment. Definitely only God has power over the sun (which is why the sun, moon, and stars are great for times and seasons, as people can't alter them). The darkness was also a judgment on the people.

    Amos 8:9 WEB It will happen in that day,” says the Lord Yahweh,
    “that I will cause the sun to go down at noon,
    and I will darken the earth in the clear day.
    10 I will turn your feasts into mourning,
    and all your songs into lamentation;
    and I will make you wear sackcloth on all your bodies,
    and baldness on every head.
    I will make it like the mourning for an only son,
    and its end like a bitter day.


    I've wondered about whether Jesus was committing suicide, but John 10:18 says that God gave Him power/authority/permission to lay down his life. I agree that the forsaking ended when Jesus said "It is finished".

    Galatians 3:13 WEB Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,”

    Thanks!
    Thanks too. We are in much agreement so I will leave it like that. I will just comment on that which I made bold.

    The verse you allude to is Philippians 1:23: "For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:"
    Consider this:
    • Paul suffered much. The beatings, the stoning, hunger, thirst and the loss of all worldly things can make your life pretty miserable. Paul only rejoiced in these things because he knew that he was being transformed by them and that they were the way to glory.
    • Paul called his body a "body of death" and "a vile body". He was keenly aware how his flesh dragged him down. He could easily look forward to being separated from it in death.
    • Paul, in Philippians, was in jail because he messed up. If you read the story of Acts carefully at least TWO groups of accredited people told him not to go to Jerusalem. Added to this, if Paul taught that the Law was abolished for the New Man, what was he doing performing an oath under Law? Paul was sent to the Gentiles. He wanted to reach Spain. In captivity all this is OVER. I estimate that Paul had quite some regrets (see Philippians 1:12). He acknowledges that something bad had happened but that God could turn it for good.
    • Paul, in his 14 training, was raptured to Paradise in Hades. He saw things. It is not called Paradise for nothing. I would say that it was very attractive a destination

    I think Paul NEVER entertained the idea of a DEAD man going to heaven. There is absolutely NO evidence of it the whole Bible. LIVING men like Enoch and Elijah and our Lord Jesus - YES, but there is no record of a dead man going to heaven. Even our Lord Jesus only went to heaven alive and in His Body.

  6. #51
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    730

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I think Paul NEVER entertained the idea of a DEAD man going to heaven. There is absolutely NO evidence of it the whole Bible. LIVING men like Enoch and Elijah and our Lord Jesus - YES, but there is no record of a dead man going to heaven. Even our Lord Jesus only went to heaven alive and in His Body.
    What about this scripture, if God is the one receiving the soul doesn't this mean heaven to you? It does to me.

    Psalms 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

  7. #52
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    6,534

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls
    I think Paul NEVER entertained the idea of a DEAD man going to heaven. There is absolutely NO evidence of it the whole Bible. LIVING men like Enoch and Elijah and our Lord Jesus - YES, but there is no record of a dead man going to heaven. Even our Lord Jesus only went to heaven alive and in His Body.
    No scripture says Enoch went to heaven bodily.
    No scripture says Elijah went to (the third heaven, only the first atmospheric heaven where birds fly and tornado/whirlwinds spin).

    Jesus is the first person to bodily ascend into Heaven, according to the scriptures.

    John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    Elijah and Enoch bodily ascending into Heaven are misunderstood myths, not biblical truths.

  8. #53
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    5,538

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    What about this scripture, if God is the one receiving the soul doesn't this mean heaven to you? It does to me.

    Psalms 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.
    From the grammar we see here that the soul is ALREADY in Hades. It must be "redeemed". The price - Christ's blood, for the wages of sin is death. Then, when it has been redeemed, THEN it is "received". It ties perfectly with 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17:

    16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

  9. #54
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    5,538

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    No scripture says Enoch went to heaven bodily.
    No scripture says Elijah went to (the third heaven, only the first atmospheric heaven where birds fly and tornado/whirlwinds spin).

    Jesus is the first person to bodily ascend into Heaven, according to the scriptures.

    John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    Elijah and Enoch bodily ascending into Heaven are misunderstood myths, not biblical truths.
    Of Enoch we read in both Genesis 5:24 and Hebrews 11:5 severally
    24 "And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."
    5 "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."

    A man can only be in one of three places: (i) Dead and his soul in Hades, (ii) Alive and on the earth, and/or (iii) Alive and in heaven. So our discussion hangs on three things.
    (1) That Enoch did not see death
    (2) That God TOOK him - not "sent" him. The Hebrew word for "took", means "take with", "receive", "accept", "fetch" and/or "draw"
    (3) That Enoch was "translated". The Hebrew word is "Metatithemi" which means "transport", "transfer" and/or "carry over to the other side"

    If he was alive, he could not be in Hades. If he has been "transferred" and "fetched" by God, what does that leave us with?

    Elijah is raptured to heaven. There is no other way around the plain language of 2nd Kings 2:1 and 11. Which heaven we cannot tell, and I also did not propose one.

    So now we are faced with explaining John 3:13. And, if we are true to the CONTEXT then it does not present a problem. If we take the verse in ISOLATION, we have a contradiction because 2nd Kings 2 will not go away. The CONTEXT of John 3:13 is a discussion between our Lord Jesus telling Nicodemus of heavenly things - the New Birth. The dialogue is, in essence, "Nicodemus, You cannot understand heavenly things if you don't even understand earthly things." Now notice the "WE" in verse. 11 "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness." In John, our Lord is presented in His divinity. "The WORD (divinity) was made FLESH (humanity)": The "WE" (thrice) and "OUR" (once) is a conference between the Father and Son in heaven, and NO MAN has ascended to be privy to this conference except Jesus. It is NOT that no man has been "transported" to heaven. It is that no man has been in heaven to be privy to the glorious conferences of the Godhead.

    If this is so, then Enoch and Elijah are bodily in heaven. Which heaven? We cannot tell. But one thing is sure. Only LIVING men (whole in body, soul and spirit) can go to heaven. Enoch, Elijah and our Lord Jesus are ALL living men. David is not. 50 days after our Lord "being redeemed from Hades", David is still there (Act.2:29, 31).

  10. #55
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    4,828
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    post with "post quick reply" only

    "Go advanced" is not working presently
    ".....it's your nickel"

  11. #56
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    3,071
    Blog Entries
    64

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Not working. What a mess
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

  12. #57
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    11,957

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour


  13. #58
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    730

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    From the grammar we see here that the soul is ALREADY in Hades. It must be "redeemed". The price - Christ's blood, for the wages of sin is death. Then, when it has been redeemed, THEN it is "received". It ties perfectly with 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17:

    16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    Thank you that does make sense... but didn't John see "souls" in heaven in Revelation? And who to you are the "great multitude" he saw in Revelation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    From the grammar we see here that the soul is ALREADY in Hades. It must be "redeemed". The price - Christ's blood, for the wages of sin is death. Then, when it has been redeemed, THEN it is "received". It ties perfectly with 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17:

    16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    Thank you that does make sense... but didn't John see "souls" in heaven in Revelation? And who to you are the "great multitude" he saw in Revelation?

  14. #59
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Europe
    Posts
    5,538

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    Thank you that does make sense... but didn't John see "souls" in heaven in Revelation? And who to you are the "great multitude" he saw in Revelation?
    Because man "became a living SOUL" (Gen.2:7) he is forthwith called a "soul" (Gen.12:8, 17:14, 46:18, Act.2:41, etc.). So the context must decide if the text is talking about men or specifically their SOUL, the main part of a man. In Revelation 6:9 we have; "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held." Now, these men are dead. They were "slain". Which altar are they under then?

    When Moses built the Tabernacle, which is closely copied when Solomon built the Temple, he received very precise instructions to follow the Tabernacle in heaven (Ex.25:9, 40; Heb.8:5). But "Tabernacle" means "Tent" (Ex.39:22), so strictly speaking, the Tabernacle, or the Tent has only one altar. This a small altar of acacia wood overlaid with gold and is hard against the Veil that separates the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies. On it was only a special "incense" which speaks of Christ as Mediator carrying the prayers of the saints into the Holy of Holies. This is spoken of in Revelation 8:3 and 9:13. It is called the "Altar of Incense" or "The Golden Altar".

    But there is of course another Altar - the Alar of Sacrifice. This a (i) much bigger, (ii) is built with acacia wood and overlaid with BRASS, and (iii) is in the Outer Court (Ex.27:1-3, etc.). That is, it is not part of the "Tent". The reason is, of course, that heaven, where the Real Tabernacle is, the one which Moses must copy, does not have an altar for sacrifices. There is no need of an altar for sacrifices in heaven. There is no redemption for the fallen angels. The BRAZEN Altar is only part of the earthly Tabernacle where the sins of men must be covered by animal sacrifices. It is hard against the earth as steps were forbidden (Ex.20:26). The "Altar" of Revelation 6:9 is this altar. It is the Altar of SACRIFICE. The men under it sacrificed their lives for the testimony of Christ. And so also did our Lord, when sacrificed, was sacrificed on the bare earth. The Altar for the Lamb of God was a rise in the earth - a hill, Golgotha.

    So, whether one takes this altar in Revelation 6:9 as a literal altar, which is almost impossible with the context it is in, or the more likely picture together with "beasts" and "seals", the "souls" of these "slain" men are UNDER THE EARTH. They are still in Hades. Their prayer is significant. They claim vengeance and are not told to forgive but that vengeance will come. That means that the age has already changed. Unlike our Lord Jesus and Stephen, they do not ask God to forgive. The time of forgiveness IS OVER. The Seals mean the day of God's wrath is upon men. And in the three and one half years of this "wrath" - the Great Tribulation, some men are going to resist the Beast and be killed (Rev.20:4). These "SOULS" under the earth upon which sacrifices are made including that of our Lord Jesus, must wait a little longer for resurrection. They are NOT "clothed" with their new bodies as 2nd Corinthians 5:1-3 promises, but are clothed with "white Robes", which are, according to Revelation 19:8, their good works. By this clothing they are guaranteed (i) to be resurrected to meet the Lord in the air, (ii) to be part of the Lord's army at Armageddon, (iii) to be invited to the Wedding Feast and (iv) to be co-kings with Christ in the Millennium (Matt.13:43).

    Again, scripture is consistent. The souls of dead men are UNDER the earth. The faithful and the righteous suffer no disadvantage in Hades. They are in "Paradise". This is significant because while there is a Paradise in heaven (God's Paradise - Rev.2:7), and a Paradise in Hades, there is no record of Paradise on earth. The greatest delight according to Psalm 16:11 and 36:8 is the presence of God. "Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore."

  15. #60

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    What about this scripture, if God is the one receiving the soul doesn't this mean heaven to you? It does to me.

    Psalms 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.
    “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. “Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,[fn] “he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. Acts 2:29-31
    And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. ----- Who is Psalms 49:15 speaking of?
    But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol; Greek Hades
    For he will receive me.
    [Selah

    Consider:

    who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience, and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation age-during, Heb 5:7-9 YLT

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    What about this scripture, if God is the one receiving the soul doesn't this mean heaven to you? It does to me.

    Psalms 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.
    “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. “Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,[fn] “he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. Acts 2:29-31
    And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. ----- Who is Psalms 49:15 speaking of?
    But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol; Greek Hades
    For he will receive me.
    [Selah

    Consider:

    who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience, and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation age-during, Heb 5:7-9 YLT

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 18
    Last Post: Aug 11th 2017, 12:37 PM
  2. Turned over to a reprobate mind?
    By Deejaygee in forum Christians Answer
    Replies: 38
    Last Post: Sep 2nd 2014, 03:43 AM
  3. God turned his back on his son because of sin.
    By Gentile in forum Growing in Christ
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: Jun 15th 2010, 11:44 AM
  4. Turned Downside Up
    By paidforinfull in forum Poetry
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: Nov 13th 2008, 01:36 AM
  5. Discussion Turned Off to Scripture
    By Buzzword in forum Bible Chat
    Replies: 31
    Last Post: Jun 18th 2008, 02:01 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •