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Thread: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

  1. #61

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    No scripture says Enoch went to heaven bodily.
    No scripture says Elijah went to (the third heaven, only the first atmospheric heaven where birds fly and tornado/whirlwinds spin).

    Jesus is the first person to bodily ascend into Heaven, according to the scriptures.

    John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    Elijah and Enoch bodily ascending into Heaven are misunderstood myths, not biblical truths.
    One way I try to interpret John 3:13 to allow Elijah going to heaven is that Jesus could be referring to "no man alive on earth today" hath ascended up to heaven.

    But we have a similar puzzle in John 1:18.

    John 1:18 KJV No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
    Genesis 32:30 KJV And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

    "at any time" seems to extend back into ancient history, but maybe we could limit it to the lifetimes of people that John or his readers could have known in person. But I think no one seeing God "at any time" ended when everyone saw Jesus who is God.

  2. #62

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Because man "became a living SOUL" (Gen.2:7) he is forthwith called a "soul" (Gen.12:8, 17:14, 46:18, Act.2:41, etc.). So the context must decide if the text is talking about men or specifically their SOUL, the main part of a man. In Revelation 6:9 we have; "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held." Now, these men are dead. They were "slain". Which altar are they under then?

    When Moses built the Tabernacle, which is closely copied when Solomon built the Temple, he received very precise instructions to follow the Tabernacle in heaven (Ex.25:9, 40; Heb.8:5). But "Tabernacle" means "Tent" (Ex.39:22), so strictly speaking, the Tabernacle, or the Tent has only one altar. This a small altar of acacia wood overlaid with gold and is hard against the Veil that separates the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies. On it was only a special "incense" which speaks of Christ as Mediator carrying the prayers of the saints into the Holy of Holies. This is spoken of in Revelation 8:3 and 9:13. It is called the "Altar of Incense" or "The Golden Altar".

    But there is of course another Altar - the Alar of Sacrifice. This a (i) much bigger, (ii) is built with acacia wood and overlaid with BRASS, and (iii) is in the Outer Court (Ex.27:1-3, etc.). That is, it is not part of the "Tent". The reason is, of course, that heaven, where the Real Tabernacle is, the one which Moses must copy, does not have an altar for sacrifices. There is no need of an altar for sacrifices in heaven. There is no redemption for the fallen angels. The BRAZEN Altar is only part of the earthly Tabernacle where the sins of men must be covered by animal sacrifices. It is hard against the earth as steps were forbidden (Ex.20:26). The "Altar" of Revelation 6:9 is this altar. It is the Altar of SACRIFICE. The men under it sacrificed their lives for the testimony of Christ. And so also did our Lord, when sacrificed, was sacrificed on the bare earth. The Altar for the Lamb of God was a rise in the earth - a hill, Golgotha.

    So, whether one takes this altar in Revelation 6:9 as a literal altar, which is almost impossible with the context it is in, or the more likely picture together with "beasts" and "seals", the "souls" of these "slain" men are UNDER THE EARTH. They are still in Hades. Their prayer is significant. They claim vengeance and are not told to forgive but that vengeance will come. That means that the age has already changed. Unlike our Lord Jesus and Stephen, they do not ask God to forgive. The time of forgiveness IS OVER. The Seals mean the day of God's wrath is upon men. And in the three and one half years of this "wrath" - the Great Tribulation, some men are going to resist the Beast and be killed (Rev.20:4). These "SOULS" under the earth upon which sacrifices are made including that of our Lord Jesus, must wait a little longer for resurrection. They are NOT "clothed" with their new bodies as 2nd Corinthians 5:1-3 promises, but are clothed with "white Robes", which are, according to Revelation 19:8, their good works. By this clothing they are guaranteed (i) to be resurrected to meet the Lord in the air, (ii) to be part of the Lord's army at Armageddon, (iii) to be invited to the Wedding Feast and (iv) to be co-kings with Christ in the Millennium (Matt.13:43).

    Again, scripture is consistent. The souls of dead men are UNDER the earth. The faithful and the righteous suffer no disadvantage in Hades. They are in "Paradise". This is significant because while there is a Paradise in heaven (God's Paradise - Rev.2:7), and a Paradise in Hades, there is no record of Paradise on earth. The greatest delight according to Psalm 16:11 and 36:8 is the presence of God. "Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore."
    I thought the context in Revelation would mean the martyr's altar is the golden altar mentioned later that was in front of God's throne (Rev. 8:3-5). The altar has a definite article "the", suggesting that we should be safe to assume that there is only one altar being mentioned (Rev. 6:9; 8:3-5; 9:13; 14:18; 16:7), but then again, "the altar" is also used to describe an altar in the holy city on earth (Rev. 11:1). Note also that the altar in Rev. 8:3-5 had the "prayers" of the saints. The martyrs were "praying" in Rev. 6:10. By your interpretation, the angels would need to go down to Hades to give them white garments.

    I thought Hebrews 12:22-23 is talking about Mount Zion in heaven, where the departed saints are currently. How do you understand it?

    Hebrews 12:22 KJV But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
    23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

  3. #63
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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
    Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  4. #64
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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Yeah, neither John 1:18 or 3:3 is talking about flesh eyes.

    Note:
    1:8....."in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."
    3:3....."the Son of man which is in heaven"

    Also in context is that we have received the grace and seen the glory of God via Christ who has 'seen' and 'declared' what he was seen both in word and deed.

  5. #65
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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Because man "became a living SOUL" (Gen.2:7) he is forthwith called a "soul" (Gen.12:8, 17:14, 46:18, Act.2:41, etc.). So the context must decide if the text is talking about men or specifically their SOUL, the main part of a man. In Revelation 6:9 we have; "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held." Now, these men are dead. They were "slain". Which altar are they under then?

    When Moses built the Tabernacle, which is closely copied when Solomon built the Temple, he received very precise instructions to follow the Tabernacle in heaven (Ex.25:9, 40; Heb.8:5). But "Tabernacle" means "Tent" (Ex.39:22), so strictly speaking, the Tabernacle, or the Tent has only one altar. This a small altar of acacia wood overlaid with gold and is hard against the Veil that separates the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies. On it was only a special "incense" which speaks of Christ as Mediator carrying the prayers of the saints into the Holy of Holies. This is spoken of in Revelation 8:3 and 9:13. It is called the "Altar of Incense" or "The Golden Altar".

    But there is of course another Altar - the Alar of Sacrifice. This a (i) much bigger, (ii) is built with acacia wood and overlaid with BRASS, and (iii) is in the Outer Court (Ex.27:1-3, etc.). That is, it is not part of the "Tent". The reason is, of course, that heaven, where the Real Tabernacle is, the one which Moses must copy, does not have an altar for sacrifices. There is no need of an altar for sacrifices in heaven. There is no redemption for the fallen angels. The BRAZEN Altar is only part of the earthly Tabernacle where the sins of men must be covered by animal sacrifices. It is hard against the earth as steps were forbidden (Ex.20:26). The "Altar" of Revelation 6:9 is this altar. It is the Altar of SACRIFICE. The men under it sacrificed their lives for the testimony of Christ. And so also did our Lord, when sacrificed, was sacrificed on the bare earth. The Altar for the Lamb of God was a rise in the earth - a hill, Golgotha.

    So, whether one takes this altar in Revelation 6:9 as a literal altar, which is almost impossible with the context it is in, or the more likely picture together with "beasts" and "seals", the "souls" of these "slain" men are UNDER THE EARTH. They are still in Hades. Their prayer is significant. They claim vengeance and are not told to forgive but that vengeance will come. That means that the age has already changed. Unlike our Lord Jesus and Stephen, they do not ask God to forgive. The time of forgiveness IS OVER. The Seals mean the day of God's wrath is upon men. And in the three and one half years of this "wrath" - the Great Tribulation, some men are going to resist the Beast and be killed (Rev.20:4). These "SOULS" under the earth upon which sacrifices are made including that of our Lord Jesus, must wait a little longer for resurrection. They are NOT "clothed" with their new bodies as 2nd Corinthians 5:1-3 promises, but are clothed with "white Robes", which are, according to Revelation 19:8, their good works. By this clothing they are guaranteed (i) to be resurrected to meet the Lord in the air, (ii) to be part of the Lord's army at Armageddon, (iii) to be invited to the Wedding Feast and (iv) to be co-kings with Christ in the Millennium (Matt.13:43).

    Again, scripture is consistent. The souls of dead men are UNDER the earth. The faithful and the righteous suffer no disadvantage in Hades. They are in "Paradise". This is significant because while there is a Paradise in heaven (God's Paradise - Rev.2:7), and a Paradise in Hades, there is no record of Paradise on earth. The greatest delight according to Psalm 16:11 and 36:8 is the presence of God. "Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore."
    Thank you for your beliefs on this and answering my questions. Things to ponder and get into scripture about. I will watch for your answer to greenonions as they brought up some other interesting things on it. Thanks again.

  6. #66

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    The souls under the alter, crying out, "how long," are no different than the blood of Abel, crying out from the ground. Why? For: for the soul of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul. Lev 17:11 Darby

  7. #67
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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    I thought the context in Revelation would mean the martyr's altar is the golden altar mentioned later that was in front of God's throne (Rev. 8:3-5). The altar has a definite article "the", suggesting that we should be safe to assume that there is only one altar being mentioned (Rev. 6:9; 8:3-5; 9:13; 14:18; 16:7), but then again, "the altar" is also used to describe an altar in the holy city on earth (Rev. 11:1). Note also that the altar in Rev. 8:3-5 had the "prayers" of the saints. The martyrs were "praying" in Rev. 6:10. By your interpretation, the angels would need to go down to Hades to give them white garments.

    I thought Hebrews 12:22-23 is talking about Mount Zion in heaven, where the departed saints are currently. How do you understand it?

    Hebrews 12:22 KJV But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
    23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
    Your arguments are good. Here is my understanding.

    Although there is much that is literal in Revelation, the introductory statement on the Book is, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John" (Revelation 1:1). That is, we can expect things to be "signified" much. So in each context we must decide, based on the sense of the text, whether it is literal or a "sign". Now, in Chapter 1 Local Churches and Angels are real literal things. But they are introduced as Lamps and Stars. That is, they were "signified". So each text must be tested to see if things are literal and/or if they are "signified".

    Now, Chapter 6 presents us with "Seals" and out of the first came horses and these horses had power over the earth. Are they literal or real? Well, while a horse can kill a man, a horses cannot exercise power over the whole earth. So the horses must be "signifying" something. But then we have the earth. Is it literal or a "sign". It can, without causing an absurdity, be literal. So when we come to verse 9, "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held", the
    • "Seal" is a "sign" because the word literally means, "a signet (as fencing in or protecting from misappropriation); by implication the stamp impressed (as a mark of privacy, or genuineness)." (Strong's). And a signet cannot contain horses, altars and/or the souls of men.
    • Altar is a "sign" because a signet cannot contain an altar. The word for altar in unambiguous. It is a raised effigy for sacrifice. But why use "altar" instead of just saying "heaven" or "earth"? Well, because they were UNDER it. What is UNDER heaven. Earth of course. And here is the absurdity. The SOULS of SLAIN men are not on earth. There is not a single case in the length and breadth of the Bible of the soul of a man being ON earth except Samuel when Saul's Medium called him up - and that only for a minute. Where are the SOULS of dead men throughout the whole Bible? Hades! So a possible reason that "altar" is used is to "signify" SACRIFICE - both Christ's on Golgotha and the martyrs' all over the world.
    • I mentioned this in an earlier posting and I include it among my arguments for your consideration. The altar of Sacrifice may not have steps. The reason given in Exodus 20:26 is that if it was raised "nakedness would be discovered". Now, 2nd Corinthians 5:1-3 says that the dead are naked. If the altar of Revelation 6:9 was lifted it would reveal "naked men". Is this the case if we lifted the Golden Altar? No. The nakedness pertains to the altar of SACRIFICE.
    • And that brings us to one of the main arguments why the Golden Altar could not house the dead. Exodus 30:8-10 says; "And when Aaron lighteth the lamps at even, he shall burn incense upon it, a perpetual incense before the LORD throughout your generations. Ye shall offer no strange incense thereon, nor burnt sacrifice, nor meat offering; neither shall ye pour drink offering thereon. And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the LORD." NO SACRIFICES AND/OR OFFERING MAY BE MADE ON THE GOLDEN ALTAR. Added to this, the blood of any man slain ILLEGALLY (like a martyr) POLLUTES the earth. But this altar is SO HOLY that no sacrifices, even the life of a Christian, may pollute it. And if the Offerings and Sacrifices are pictures and Types of Christ, not even Christ can be sacrificed on it. Only His ALREADY SHED BLOOD MAY BE APPLIED TO THE CORNERS once a year.
    • The next argument is that AFTER Christ's death, the Veil of the Temple is ripped from top to bottom. The Altar of Incense, without the separating Veil, now becomes part of the Holy of Holies. So it is revealed in the Book of Hebrews, and so it is revealed in Ezekiel's Temple, the Millennial Temple. Now we must ask the question; "If death is so abhorrent to God. And if death pollutes. And if death is nakedness. And if death is God's mortal enemy. WOULD GOD ALLOW SUCH A DEFILING THING IN THE HOLY OF HOLIES.
    • And my final argument is the simplest of all. The whole Bible reveals the souls of dead men under the earth. The souls of the dead martyrs are UNDER the altar. The altar must be a "sign" of the earth and a "sign" of sacrifice IN ONE WORD.

    As to the various altars in Revelation, I find three perfectly reasonable altars without any problems IF TAKEN in their CONTEXTS
    1. We have the "altar of Sacrifice" as discussed above. It is a "sign" of a place and of supreme sacrifice by men
    2. We have the Golden Altar, a part of the Holy Place, and now a part of the Holy of Holies - an alar where ONLY incense is offered up. It speaks of Christ's MEDIATORIAL work day and night
    3. We have the literal altar of sacrifice in the newly build temple in Jerusalem which the Beast will usurp.

    Not one presents any problem if taken within its context. But if a student of scripture wants to lump them together, confusion is the order of the day.

    As to Hebrews 12:22-23 I will only say this (and I am copping out of a big theme if it where not so). You and I, and others, have been discussion where DEAD MEN's SOULS GO. The listeners, the recipients of Hebrews ARE ALIVE. The two verse proffered have nothing to do with the DEAD. They are addressed to the LIVING.

  8. #68
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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    The souls under the alter, crying out, "how long," are no different than the blood of Abel, crying out from the ground. Why? For: for the soul of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul. Lev 17:11 Darby
    Thanks for your input. You may have a point. There are similaritoes and there are differences.

    Abel's blood cried for vengeance and God cursed the earth. The vengeance fell on all tillers of the ground and on all men who must buy grown food. Christ's blood "which speaks better things than that of Abel's" is so that God can RESTORE the earth (Romans 8) - not men. But these martyrs cry for vengeance UPON MEN. And it is GIVEN. The Seals are more than half opened by the time they cry out and DEATH is abundant.

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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    The souls under the alter, crying out, "how long," are no different than the blood of Abel, crying out from the ground.
    The two are very different. The first are literal souls who are awake, alive and talking. The blood of Abel was symbolic. There was no soul in the ground literally crying out. Abel's soul departed this world when he died.

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    The souls under the alter, crying out, "how long," are no different than the blood of Abel, crying out from the ground.
    The two are very different. The first are literal souls who are awake, alive and talking. The blood of Abel was symbolic. There was no soul in the ground literally crying out. Abel's soul departed this world when he died.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Matthew 27:44 "The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth. Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elijah. And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elijah will come to save him. Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom "


    It is more and more common these days, that I hear of this passage; that the Father:

    • Turned His Back on Jesus
    • Forsook Jesus
    • Looked Away from Jesus
    • Abandoned Jesus as He took upon Himself the sins of the world
    • etc...


    I believe this is one of those 'sound-bytes' that isn't a 'sound' byte at all, but rather an unsound byte.
    It is something that is becoming more and more accepted; as more and more people become biblically illiterate.

    If the Father really didn't forsake Jesus, at this moment, as I am suggesting, then was Jesus wrong?

    I think neither. I think those who do not properly understand what Jesus said, and why, are just as misunderstood on that phrase, as those standing there, thinking Jesus was calling for the prophet Elijah for help.

    Neither was the case.

    Jesus knew exactly what He was saying, and why He was saying it.

    Here is what He said and why.

    Jesus knew the OT Scriptures, and He often quoted them to the crowds to teach.
    In His final words hanging on the cross before death, He makes this final quotation of Scripture, to be a final exclamation point on who He was, what His ministry was about, and the eternal rammifications of Him dying on the cross was, in fulfillment of the Scriptures.

    Jesus was in one short statement, reminding all, that this day of His crucifixion, had been prophesied over a thousand years ago, in striking details. That those Psalmic prophecies, were being fulfilled in that very moment, under their eyes.
    Anyone listening who knew the Psalms, understood Jesus' final claim of ultimate truth.

    Psalms 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? 22:2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
    22:3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
    22:4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
    22:5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
    22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
    22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
    22:8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
    22:9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
    22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
    22:11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
    22:12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
    22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
    22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
    22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
    22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
    22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
    22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
    22:19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
    22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
    22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
    22:22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the church(Hebrews 2;11) will I praise thee.
    22:23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
    22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
    22:25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
    22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
    22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
    22:28 For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.
    22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
    22:30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
    22:31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

    Forsaken of the Father, looked away from, never.

    Vindicated as the prophets fortold, as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords?
    AMEN and AMEN. Hallelujah AMEN!!
    Good post. I would add some thoughts to consider.

    Jesus, who is God and knows all things, has no need to ask any question seeking an answer that He doesn't already know. Therefore, Jesus wasn't asking for His own sake, but for ours. Why did God forsake/leave Jesus at that time? Satan had previously brought up the scripture where God promised to provide angels to bear Him up "lest He dash His foot against a stone." God the Father guaranteed the safety of Jesus even down to preventing a scratched foot. So, why did He not rescue Christ from the cross? Obviously, because it was the Father's will to so. The Father withdrew His assistance so that Jesus could die. Otherwise, it would have been impossible to harm Jesus. So, why did the Father allow Jesus to die? Atonement for all. He is God's sacrifice and drink offering that was taken away, prophesied by Daniel 9:27. There is no atonement for intentional sin anywhere in scripture. This is the giant glaring dilemma in the OT. Adam and Eve sinned and were kicked out of the garden. They offered a sacrifice, but were still kicked out and subject to working for food and labor pains. There is no sacrifice accepted by God for intentional sin, and all have sinned. Therefore, there should be no one saved. Yet, we read many scriptures about God's salvation and being our Redeemer and life forever. How is it possible to resolve this impossible conflict? Since He IS our Redeemer, the only option that remains is for God to offer His own sacrifice, which He will accept, for the atonement of our sins. When Jesus said, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?," He was asking us to think and search out the biggest challenge in the scriptures for ourselves. In doing so, we will understand the salvation power of the gospel to the full.

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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Good post. I would add some thoughts to consider.

    Jesus, who is God and knows all things, has no need to ask any question seeking an answer that He doesn't already know. Therefore, Jesus wasn't asking for His own sake, but for ours. Why did God forsake/leave Jesus at that time?
    He didn't. That's the entire point.

    The Father withdrew His assistance so that Jesus could die.
    He didn't withdraw anything. The plan was for Jesus to die on the cross and pay for man's sins. The Father was in Christ and never left him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Good post. I would add some thoughts to consider.

    Jesus, who is God and knows all things, has no need to ask any question seeking an answer that He doesn't already know. Therefore, Jesus wasn't asking for His own sake, but for ours. Why did God forsake/leave Jesus at that time?
    He didn't. That's the entire point.

    The Father withdrew His assistance so that Jesus could die.
    He didn't withdraw anything. The plan was for Jesus to die on the cross and pay for man's sins. The Father was in Christ and never left him.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  12. #72

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Thanks too. We are in much agreement so I will leave it like that. I will just comment on that which I made bold.

    The verse you allude to is Philippians 1:23: "For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:"
    Consider this:
    • Paul suffered much. The beatings, the stoning, hunger, thirst and the loss of all worldly things can make your life pretty miserable. Paul only rejoiced in these things because he knew that he was being transformed by them and that they were the way to glory.
    • Paul called his body a "body of death" and "a vile body". He was keenly aware how his flesh dragged him down. He could easily look forward to being separated from it in death.
    • Paul, in Philippians, was in jail because he messed up. If you read the story of Acts carefully at least TWO groups of accredited people told him not to go to Jerusalem. Added to this, if Paul taught that the Law was abolished for the New Man, what was he doing performing an oath under Law? Paul was sent to the Gentiles. He wanted to reach Spain. In captivity all this is OVER. I estimate that Paul had quite some regrets (see Philippians 1:12). He acknowledges that something bad had happened but that God could turn it for good.
    • Paul, in his 14 training, was raptured to Paradise in Hades. He saw things. It is not called Paradise for nothing. I would say that it was very attractive a destination

    I think Paul NEVER entertained the idea of a DEAD man going to heaven. There is absolutely NO evidence of it the whole Bible. LIVING men like Enoch and Elijah and our Lord Jesus - YES, but there is no record of a dead man going to heaven. Even our Lord Jesus only went to heaven alive and in His Body.
    That's an interesting thought, that Paul preferred death because he suffered much on earth. But does that mean that for Christians who are not experiencing a season of suffering, that it is not better for them to depart and be with Christ? For why would it be better to be in Hades compared to being on earth? Even when David was being hunted down, he certainly preferred to be alive than dead. The Bible typically describes the land of the living as a better place.

    Paul even seems to be gladdened by his sufferings.

    2 Corinthians 12:10 WEB Therefore I take pleasure in weaknesses, in injuries, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then am I strong.
    Colossians 1:24 WEB Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and fill up on my part that which is lacking of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the assembly;

    Paul had to go to Jerusalem. I don't think it was a mistake. First, he had a job to do: accompany the offering. Second, he was bound by the Spirit to go.

    1 Corinthians 16:3 When I arrive, I will send whoever you approve with letters to carry your gracious gift to Jerusalem. 4 If it is appropriate for me to go also, they will go with me.
    Romans 15:25 WEB But now, I say, I am going to Jerusalem, serving the saints. 26 For it has been the good pleasure of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor among the saints who are at Jerusalem.
    Acts 20:22 WEB Now, behold, I go bound by the Spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing what will happen to me there;
    Acts 21:23 WEB Then Paul answered, “What are you doing, weeping and breaking my heart? For I am ready not only to be bound, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.”

  13. #73

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    (2) The theme of the thread is whether the Almighty God ("El" - Heb.) forsook His only begotten Son Jesus for three hours on the cross. I maintain He did. My proofs summarized are thus;
    I think Jesus was forsaken, but not separated from God. You think God forsook the Man Jesus, but you are saying here that He forsook the Son [of God], Jesus.

    • The plain an unambiguous wording of scripture means what it says. To make it mean anything else is to make our Lord tell a lie and/or to make Matthew's report the not under inspiration
    • The relationship between God and Jesus while He was on earth was God versus creature, not one of the Triune God. Our Lord Jesus NEVER called Himself "the Son of God" in Matthew. Others did but He EXCLUSIVELY calls Himself "Son of man". Added to this, God cannot die, so to put the Deity of Jesus in view overturns the revelation of God as having ETERNAL LIFE.
    Yes other people called Jesus the Son of God and He confirmed that they were right.

    Matthew 16:16 WEB Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
    17 Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.


    Matthew 26:63 WEBBut Jesus held his peace. The high priest answered him, “I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God.”
    64 Jesus said to him, “You have said it. Nevertheless, I tell you, after this you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the cl
    ouds of the sky.”

    • The blood of animal sacrifices could not put away sins. Only a MAN can pay for men. Thus, Jesus THE MAN is offered on the cross
    • The revelation of God is that He is 100% just. Therefore our Lord Jesus had to pay for EVERY single sin ever committed. Thus, He is "made" sin for us, and took OUR sins upon Himself. God must deal with those those as He would have if it was US on the cross
    The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). God had Jesus die physically. That's all that is legally required. God did not need to be angry with Jesus or torture Him or separate from Him.

    • The revelation of God is that He is a Holy God. When Aaron must enter the Holy of Holies that once a year, if he did one little thing out of order He would be slain. God does not have fellowship with sin and sins.
    • In this theme of the point above, God might look at sinners from afar, He might hear their prayers, He might descend from heaven to deal with them, but He, at all times remains SEPARATE from them. "Holy" means "SEPARATE". God could not join Himself to any sinning man, let alone a Man who was carrying ALL the sins ever committed.
    Saul was trying to kill David (sinning), yet God's Spirit came on him also.

    1 Samuel 19:20 WEB Saul sent messengers to seize David: and when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as head over them, God’s Spirit came on Saul’s messengers, and they also prophesied. 21 When Saul was told, he sent other messengers, and they also prophesied. Saul sent messengers again the third time, and they also prophesied. 22 Then he also went to Ramah, and came to the great well that is in Secu: and he asked, “Where are Samuel and David?”
    One said, “Behold, they are at Naioth in Ramah.”
    23 He went there to Naioth in Ramah. Then God’s Spirit came on him also, and he went on, and prophesied, until he came to Naioth in Ramah. 24 He also stripped off his clothes, and he also prophesied before Samuel, and lay down naked all that day and all that night. Therefore they say, “Is Saul also among the prophets?”


    • We who live with sin and sins hourly think it is normal. That is why many posters cannot fathom why God would forsake His Son. But God God is DIAMETRICALLY opposed to sin. He is not only Holy, but ABHORS sin. If you are not sure of God's holiness then explain why "God's anger was kindled against Uzzah and He SMOTE him that he died (1st Chron.13:10).
    God was not angry with Jesus, even if He carried the people's sin. Similarly, God was not angry with the goats and bulls that were sin offerings. They were slain, but they were not tortured to death.

    John 10:17 WEB Therefore the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.

    When we sin, Jesus is our Counselor/Advocate/Paraclete before God because He is righteous and well-pleasing to Him. True, He also died for sins. Have you considered why Jesus does not carry our sins today? Or maybe He still does. But they've been paid for in full. If Jesus does not carry our sins today, where did the sins go? Did He leave them in Hades? Clearly ordinary sinners can't leave their sins in Hades when they stand before the Great White Throne judgment.

    1 John 2:1 WEB My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. If anyone sins, we have a Counselor with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous. 2 And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

    Matthew 3:17 WEB Behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

    Psalm 68:19 WEB Blessed be the Lord, who daily bears our burdens, even the God who is our salvation. Selah.

  14. #74

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    The souls under the alter, crying out, "how long," are no different than the blood of Abel, crying out from the ground. Why? For: for the soul of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul. Lev 17:11 Darby
    These souls were given a long white robe, so it's not simply blood that's talking. (Revelation 6:11)

  15. #75

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Good post. I would add some thoughts to consider.

    Jesus, who is God and knows all things, has no need to ask any question seeking an answer that He doesn't already know. Therefore, Jesus wasn't asking for His own sake, but for ours. Why did God forsake/leave Jesus at that time? Satan had previously brought up the scripture where God promised to provide angels to bear Him up "lest He dash His foot against a stone." God the Father guaranteed the safety of Jesus even down to preventing a scratched foot. So, why did He not rescue Christ from the cross? Obviously, because it was the Father's will to so. The Father withdrew His assistance so that Jesus could die. Otherwise, it would have been impossible to harm Jesus. So, why did the Father allow Jesus to die? Atonement for all. He is God's sacrifice and drink offering that was taken away, prophesied by Daniel 9:27. There is no atonement for intentional sin anywhere in scripture. This is the giant glaring dilemma in the OT. Adam and Eve sinned and were kicked out of the garden. They offered a sacrifice, but were still kicked out and subject to working for food and labor pains. There is no sacrifice accepted by God for intentional sin, and all have sinned. Therefore, there should be no one saved. Yet, we read many scriptures about God's salvation and being our Redeemer and life forever. How is it possible to resolve this impossible conflict? Since He IS our Redeemer, the only option that remains is for God to offer His own sacrifice, which He will accept, for the atonement of our sins. When Jesus said, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?," He was asking us to think and search out the biggest challenge in the scriptures for ourselves. In doing so, we will understand the salvation power of the gospel to the full.
    There is atonement for some intentional sins in the OT. The trespass offering atoned for some of these intentional sins:

    Leviticus 6:1 WEB Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “If anyone sins, and commits a trespass against Yahweh, and deals falsely with his neighbor in a matter of deposit, or of bargain, or of robbery, or has oppressed his neighbor, 3 or has found that which was lost, and dealt falsely therein, and swearing to a lie; in any of these things that a man does, sinning therein; 4 then it shall be, if he has sinned, and is guilty, he shall restore that which he took by robbery, or the thing which he has gotten by oppression, or the deposit which was committed to him, or the lost thing which he found, 5 or any thing about which he has sworn falsely; he shall restore it even in full, and shall add a fifth part more to it. To him to whom it belongs he shall give it, in the day of his being found guilty. 6 He shall bring his trespass offering to Yahweh, a ram without defect from the flock, according to your estimation, for a trespass offering, to the priest. 7 The priest shall make atonement for him before Yahweh, and he will be forgiven concerning whatever he does to become guilty.”

    But there was also an immediate death sentence for defiant sin.

    Numbers 15:30 WEB “‘But the soul who does anything with a high hand, whether he is native-born or a foreigner, the same blasphemes Yahweh. That soul shall be cut off from among his people.

    The sacrifices on the Day of Atonement atoned for all sins, so it is not a dilemma in the OT.

    Leviticus 16:21 WEB Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, even all their sins; and he shall put them on the head of the goat, and shall send him away into the wilderness by the hand of a man who is in readiness. ... 30 for on this day shall atonement be made for you, to cleanse you; from all your sins you shall be clean before Yahweh.

    But yes, Jesus' question does make us think and search for an answer.

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