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Thread: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

  1. #91
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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    The word translated forsaken in Psalm 22:1 is "ozbth-ni" (H5800). The same Hebrew word is also used in Exodus 23:5.

    Psalm 22:1 KJV My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me [ozbth-ni]? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
    Exodus 23:4 KJV If thou meet thine enemy's ox or his ass going astray, thou shalt surely bring it back to him again. 5 If thou see the ass of him that hateth thee lying under his burden, and wouldest forbear [m-ozb] to help him, thou shalt surely help with him.

    Notice how in both verses, the word "forsake" is used in the context of not helping. In Exodus 23:5, the law is prohibiting letting the donkey remain in a helpless position. Comparing with Exodus 23:4-5, the emphasis is not on "going away" but the need to take action to remedy the situation. I understand Psalm 22:1 in a similar way.



    Psalm 22:24 KJV For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

    Compare the two verses. Isaiah 59:2 shows that God will not hear the Israelites' prayer. Psalm 22:24 shows that God heard Jesus' prayer. The second half of Isaiah 59:2 does not apply to Jesus, so there is no warrant to apply Isaiah 59:2 to Jesus.

    Until next time...
    My verse from Isaiah was to show that God cannot associate with sin. Do you maintain that God associates with sin, or that He Veiled Himself to SEPARATE Himself from anything profane?

    Your word study of "forsaken" is not quite up to standard. Here is Strong on the Hebrew Word:
    • Transliteration: azab, Phonetic Pronunciation:aw-zab', Verb,
    • Usage Notes: Of a toral count of 215 times it is rendered "forsake" 129 times, "leave" 72 X, "leave off " 4 X, "faileth" 2 X.
    • a primitive root meaning; "to relinquish", "to permit", "to forsake", "to leave destitute", "to leave off", "to refuse".

    (Strong's Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.)

    Here is Vine Verbatim on the word:
    Forsake (To)
    Strong's Number: <H5800>
    Original Word: azab
    Usage Notes: "to leave, forsake, abandon, leave behind, be left over, let go." The word occurs in biblical Hebrew about 215 times and in all periods. Basically "azab" means "to depart from something," or "to leave."
    • This is the meaning of the word in its first biblical appearance: "[For this cause] shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife…" (Gen. 2:24). A special nuance of the word is "to leave in the lurch," or to leave someone who is depending upon one's services. So Moses said to Hobab the Midianite (Kenite): "Leave us not [in the lurch] I pray thee; forasmuch as thou knowest how we are to encamp in the wilderness, and thou mayest be to us instead of eyes" (Num. 10:31).
    • The word also carries the meaning "forsake," or "leave entirely." Such passages convey a note of finality or completeness. So Isaiah is to preach that "…the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings" (Isa. 7:16). In other places, the abandonment is complete but not necessarily permanent. God says that Israel is "as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit…. For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee" (Isa. 54:6-7). In Akkadian, this word carries a technical sense of "completely and permanently abandoned" or "divorced." Isaiah employs this sense in Isaiah 62:4: "Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken;… but thou shalt be called [My delight is in her], and thy land [Married]…."
    • Another special use of the word is "to disregard advice": "But he forsook the counsel of the old men which they had given him…" (1 Kings 12:8).
    • A second emphasis of ?azab is "to leave behind," meaning to allow something to remain while one leaves the scene. In Gen. 39:12, Joseph "left" his garment in the hand of Potiphar's wife and fled. The word may also refer to an intentional "turning over one's possessions to another's trust," or "leaving something in one's control." Potiphar "left all that he had in Joseph's hand" (Gen. 39:6).
    • In a somewhat different nuance, the word means to "let someone or something alone with a problem": "If thou see the ass of him that hateth thee lying under his burden, and wouldest forbear to help him…" (Exod. 23:5). Used figuratively, ?azab means to "put distance between" in a spiritual or intellectual sense: "Cease from anger, and forsake wrath…" (Psa. 37:8). The third emphasis of the word is "to be left over," or "to take most of something and leave the rest behind": "And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them [over] for the poor and stranger: I am the Lord your God" (Lev. 19:10). Finally, ?azab can mean "to let go" or "allow to leave." The "stupid and senseless men" are those who make no provision for the future; they die leaving ("allowing it to go") their wealth to others (Psa. 49:10). A different nuance occurs in Ruth 2:16, where the verb means "to let something lie" on the ground. ?azab can also mean "to give up": "He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them [gives them up] shall have mercy" (Prov. 28:13), and the word can mean "to set free," as in 2 Chron. 28:14: "So the armed men left the captives and the spoil before the princes and all the congregation." Azab can signify "let go," or "make it leave." Concerning evil, Zophar remarks, "…[The wicked] forsake it not, but keep it still within his mouth" (Job 20:13).
    • Azab can mean to "allow someone to do something," as in 2 Chron. 32:31, where "God left [Hezekiah], to try him, that he might know all that was in his heart"; God "let" Hezekiah do whatever he wanted. "Letting an activity go" may also signify its discontinuance: "I pray you, let us leave off this usury" (Neh. 5:10).
    • Azab is sometimes used in a judicial technical sense of "being free," which is the opposite of being in bondage. The Lord will vindicate His people, and will have compassion on His servants "when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left" (Deut. 32:36).

    (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old Testament and New Testament Words.)

    Our job is to apply it as it is, not try to make it mean something else.

  2. #92
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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Of Enoch we read in both Genesis 5:24 and Hebrews 11:5 severally
    24 "And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."
    The verse doesn't say where God took him.
    You assume God took him to the third heaven; not written anywhere in scripture however.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post

    5 [I]"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him:
    Not being found and being translated also doesn't say where. Doesn't say to the third heaven.
    You assume it means that.
    Not seeing death also doesn't mean 'never died', but could just as well meant that Enoch did not die at a specific time, due to a specific circumstance.
    God could have easily moved Enoch to a different location; for a different reason upon the Earth. To assume the third heaven again, is assuming, and conflicts other scriptures.

    Genesis tells us that the days of Enoch's life was 365 years.
    Hebrews also tells us that Enoch died in the faith.
    The greater weight is that Enoch died at some point; we just aren't given the details.


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post


    Elijah is raptured to heaven. There is no other way around the plain language of 2nd Kings 2:1 and 11. Which heaven we cannot tell, and I also did not propose one.
    Elijah is raptured to the first heaven (scripture uses Oranos to describe three heavens; atmospheric (bird place), interstellar (moon and sun place); and the third heaven (streets of gold and pearly gates).
    Nothing mentions Elijah going to the third heaven.

    Tornados blow in the first heaven; that is the most likely heaven he was taken up in. That they looked for him, shows they thought it was an atmospheric whirlwind. That Elijah wrote a letter to King Joram 9 years later, also shows he didn't leave the planet.

  3. #93
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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    The verse doesn't say where God took him.
    You assume God took him to the third heaven; not written anywhere in scripture however.


    Not being found and being translated also doesn't say where. Doesn't say to the third heaven.
    You assume it means that.
    Not seeing death also doesn't mean 'never died', but could just as well meant that Enoch did not die at a specific time, due to a specific circumstance.
    God could have easily moved Enoch to a different location; for a different reason upon the Earth. To assume the third heaven again, is assuming, and conflicts other scriptures.

    Genesis tells us that the days of Enoch's life was 365 years.
    Hebrews also tells us that Enoch died in the faith.
    The greater weight is that Enoch died at some point; we just aren't given the details.



    Elijah is raptured to the first heaven (scripture uses Oranos to describe three heavens; atmospheric (bird place), interstellar (moon and sun place); and the third heaven (streets of gold and pearly gates).
    Nothing mentions Elijah going to the third heaven.

    Tornados blow in the first heaven; that is the most likely heaven he was taken up in. That they looked for him, shows they thought it was an atmospheric whirlwind. That Elijah wrote a letter to King Joram 9 years later, also shows he didn't leave the planet.
    Just to be sure of the facts before we enter into discussion, could you quote my statement that Enoch and Elijah went to the THIRD heaven - as you maintain. I hope that we Christians are found truthful. Thanks.

  4. #94

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Correct. But my point was how our Lord presented Himself. This is very important when He was tempted. Satan always addressed Him in His divinity, but He was tempted as a MAN. Hebrews 4:15; "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." "OUR" infirmities, and "tempted like as we are" set the qualification for the New High Priest - a MAN. So also does He die as a MAN. In Hebrews 6:20 we learn that our Lord is of the order of Melchizedek. In the following verses of 7:1-5 we learn that though Melchizedek has no beginning or end of life, and is LIKE the Son of God in verse 3, he is a MAN in verse 4!
    Agreed. Jesus died as a man.

    Not so. There is RETRIBUTION that is part of justice. The Lake of Fire is the end of sinners. Our Lord Jesus does not only die but experiences the horrors of the Lake of Fire for all men. Isaiah 53:10; "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand."
    Jesus died for the sins under the first covenant. The first covenant has death as the penalty. The lake of fire is the second death. Jesus only died once, so I don't think He went to the second death.

    Hebrews 9:15 KJV And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
    Romans 6:10 KJV For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

    Leviticus 17:11 KJV For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

    The word "life" is the same as the word "soul". It is represented by the blood. When Jesus shed His blood, His life/soul was offered.

    Leviticus 17:11 AMPC For the life (the animal soul) is in the blood, and I have given it for you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement, by reason of the life [which it represents].

    There are two "givings" of the holy Spirit. (i) For divine Life (Jn.20:22) where the Holy Spirit is "breathed IN" - that is INTERNALLY and INTRINSICALLY. (i) For POWER (Lk.24:49; Act.1:8) to build the Church. For LIFE the Holy Spirit is IN the believer. For POWER the Holy Spirit is UPON the believer. The Holy Spirit was UPON Balaam, the Gentile Occultic Prophet, but not IN him. The Holy Spirit was UPON Balaam's donkey, an unclean animal, but NOT IN it. The Holy Spirit was UPON Samson who chased foreign wives, but not IN Him. The Holy Spirit was UPON Saul but not IN him. The Holy Spirit moves UPON who and what He will to achieve God's purposes, but He only ENTERS and becomes intrinsically and organically ONE with a Believer who has had his sins put away.
    So when someone is filled with the Spirit, is it different from the Spirit being inside them?

    Exodus 31:3 KJV And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

    First, my example was to not to prove that God was "angry" with His Son Jesus. It was an example that showed how HOLY God was. And yes, the goats and bulls were slain, but if you want to get an appreciation of our Lord's death, you need to study the medical reports of Christian doctors. They are available on the Internet. If you still come to the conclusion that our Lord was NOT tortured then I refer you to what happened in Gethsemane. Here is the definition of Hematidrosis by Wikipedia. "Hematidrosis is a condition in which capillary blood vessels that feed the sweat glands rupture, causing them to exude blood, occurring under conditions of extreme physical or emotional stress." I was a soldier as a young man and saw some war. I saw young men going into battle where the would likely be killed or maimed. I saw no Hematidrosis. What our Lord faced was the sum of all fear - and it went from about 10 p.m. till next day 3 p.m. - maybe much longer if we are to believe Luke 9:51. "And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem." Could it just be that He was so scared of what He knew lay before Him that He had to apply total self discipline just to go to Jerusalem?

    Let us lay this to rest once for all. Our Lord Jesus suffered extremely. I'm sorry there is not a stronger word for EXTREMELY!
    I agree that Jesus was tortured. I meant the bulls and goats were not legally required to be tortured to death.

    The simple answer is what scripture says:
    • John 1:29; "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."
    • 1st John 2:2; "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

    The sins that were before God's eyes He "TOOK AWAY". And Jehovah, Who is perfectly just, and Who had a righteous anger against all men besides Jesus, was "appeased". Propitiation, also called expiation, is the act of appeasing or making well-disposed a deity, thus incurring divine favor or avoiding divine retribution. (Wikipedia).
    I was talking about God is pleased with Jesus for being righteous and willing to die, so He should not be angry at Him when He died. Yes, Jesus' sacrifice also plays the major role of propitiation. God is appeased by seeing the blood. That should be enough.

    Exodus 12:13 KJV And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
    1 John 1:7 KJV But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    Lest you think the blood itself is not enough.
    Hebrews 9:13 KJV For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
    14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


    At the White Throne the criteria are clearly stated - THEIR WORKS (Rev.20:12). A baby murdered in its mothers womb in the name of "Women's Liberation" (being free to decide above God about another body in her body) will have NO WORKS worthy of the Lake of Fire. The Hebrew children killed by Herod's orders will have NO WORKS worthy of the Lake of Fire and go free. The old Eskimo man who never heard the gospel is judge by his conscience (Rom.2:14-16). If he lived a simple life of hunting and procreating he will not be found worthy of the Lake of Fire. But if he killed other men and stole their hard earned pelts and meat, he struck blows against man made in God's image (Gen.9:6). What will his end be? but above all this is the simple fact that our Lord has paid for these ALL. And this gives God DISCRETIONARY POWERS IN MATTERS OF JUSTICE. The price has been paid. God is "appeased". His 100% sense of justice is satisfied. "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth" (Romans 9:18). It is TOTALLY at God's DISCRETION.

    Hope this helps. Thanks for the exchange.
    Agreed. The price has been paid and God can apply the forgiveness to whomever He wishes.

  5. #95
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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Just to be sure of the facts before we enter into discussion, could you quote my statement that Enoch and Elijah went to the THIRD heaven - as you maintain. I hope that we Christians are found truthful. Thanks.
    You haven't used the specific phrase '3rd heaven'.

    You have used the general term heaven as follows:

    Quote Originally Posted by walls
    I think Paul NEVER entertained the idea of a DEAD man going to heaven. There is absolutely NO evidence of it the whole Bible. LIVING men like Enoch and Elijah and our Lord Jesus - YES, but there is no record of a dead man going to heaven. Even our Lord Jesus only went to heaven alive and in His Body.

    Elijah is raptured to heaven.

    If this is so, then Enoch and Elijah are bodily in heaven.
    I used the term '3rd Heaven' to distinguish the three heavens (usages of Oranos) in scripture; to show that Elijah remainined in the 1st atmospheric heaven...noone except Jesus, has bodily gone to the 3rd heaven.

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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    You haven't used the specific phrase '3rd heaven'.
    Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    You have used the general term heaven as follows:
    Quite - like 2nd Kings 2:1 & 11.
    1 "And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal."
    11 "And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."

    There is no talk of a specific heaven. Perhaps you have scripture that is specific.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    I used the term '3rd Heaven' to distinguish the three heavens (usages of Oranos) in scripture; to show that Elijah remainined in the 1st atmospheric heaven...noone except Jesus, has bodily gone to the 3rd heaven.
    Do you have scripture for this statement? I understood that, "He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above ALL heavens, that he might fill all things" (Ephesians 4:10). And what think ye of Hebrews 7:26; "For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens"?

    God bless.

  7. #97
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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Thank you.



    Quite - like 2nd Kings 2:1 & 11.
    1 "And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal."
    11 "And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."

    There is no talk of a specific heaven. Perhaps you have scripture that is specific.
    There is talk of a specific heaven in the verse above.

    It is only the atmospheric 1st heaven where the birds fly, that whirlwinds blow, and pick up men, and fly them through the air.
    This doesn't occur in the 2nd inter-stellar heaven, and it isn't recorded as occuring in any verses that describe the 3rd pearly-gates heaven either.

    Elijah was taken in an earthly tornado into the air, and flung out of sight.
    They even saw it with their earthly, eyes right in from of them, and they even tried to find where it blew him.

    The only heaven 2 Kings 2 could be describing, is the atmospheric, heaven where birds fly and twisters blow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Do you have scripture for this statement? I understood that, "He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above ALL heavens, that he might fill all things" (Ephesians 4:10). And what think ye of Hebrews 7:26; "For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens"?

    God bless.
    Jesus is the only human to bodily ascend through and beyond the 1st and/or 2nd heavens; into the third heavens where the streets of gold are.

    Acts 1:9 A"nd when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. "


    Now to be specific, which of the three heavens described in scripture did Jesus ascend to as his destination (yes this one went 'through' the first heaven where clouds are)...but where is the destination heaven?

    Stephen tells you which of the three heavens Jesus ascended to as His bodily destination.
    Acts 7:55 "Stephen, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of Gdo. "

    The same 3rd Heaven that Jesus' spirit went to at the cross when He gave up the ghost.

    Matthew 23:43 "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. "

    The same 3rd Heaven that is called paradise, that Paul mentioned in the vision here:

    2 Corinthians 12:1 "I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words"

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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    [QUOTE=greenonions;3493447]...


    Jesus died for the sins under the first covenant. The first covenant has death as the penalty. The lake of fire is the second death. Jesus only died once, so I don't think He went to the second death.

    Hebrews 9:15 KJV And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
    Romans 6:10 KJV For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

    Leviticus 17:11 KJV For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

    The word "life" is the same as the word "soul". It is represented by the blood. When Jesus shed His blood, His life/soul was offered.

    Leviticus 17:11 AMPC For the life (the animal soul) is in the blood, and I have given it for you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement, by reason of the life [which it represents].
    The wages of sins is the Lake of Fire. It is depicted by "Gehenna" which comes from the Valley on the south side of Jerusalem where the trash, including cadavers, of the city are burned. The fires burned continually. It is also the Valley where the Canaanites, and later Israel, made their children to walk through fire to appease the fire-demon-god Molech. "Gehenna" is used interchangeable with "perdition" and the Lake of Fire. In Matthew 10:28 we learn of what God does to sinners; "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in GEHENNA." Thus, our Lord Jesus, in facing what was due to all men for all sins, faced this awful DOUBLE death - the death first of His soul in Gethsemane, and then added to this ongoing horror, the death of His body over about 9 hours of battering and crucifixion (the beatings and thorns plus carrying His cross and finally the dreadful act of crucifixion).

    So when someone is filled with the Spirit, is it different from the Spirit being inside them?

    Exodus 31:3 KJV And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
    Yes. In John 20:22 the disciples where filled INTERNALLY with the Holy Spirit in fulfillment of John 14:17, 20. The breath of the risen Christ went INTO them. On Pentecost the Holy Spirit was poured out UPON them. The Greek word in Acts 1:2 for "filled" is "pleroo" which means that the room was "filled" INTERNALLY with wind (or spirit). In verse 4 where the disciples were "filled" with the Holy Spirit the Greek is "pletho" which means "to furnish" or to "imbue". A policeman, in order to be strong to do his work is "filled" with breakfast. It is IN his stomach. Then, in order to wield the power of State, he "furnishes" himself with his uniform. His uniform is "upon" him. Every Christian who has BELIEVED has the Holy Spirit IN them for divine life and the nature of God - by FAITH. Then, every Christian who has been baptized (Act.2:38) has the Holy Spirit "clothing" him, or "upon" him for power to build the Church.

    Samson, Saul, Balaam and his donkey had the Holy Spirit UPON them for POWER to fight and prophesy. But they were unbelievers and did not have the Holy Spirit IN them.

    I was talking about God is pleased with Jesus for being righteous and willing to die, so He should not be angry at Him when He died. Yes, Jesus' sacrifice also plays the major role of propitiation. God is appeased by seeing the blood. That should be enough.

    Exodus 12:13 KJV And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
    1 John 1:7 KJV But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    Lest you think the blood itself is not enough.
    Hebrews 9:13 KJV For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
    14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?



    Agreed. The price has been paid and God can apply the forgiveness to whomever He wishes.
    There is a difference between God being angry and God's wrath in judgement. God was angry with Moses at the burning bush but nothing came of it except maybe God used Aaron when He didn't want to. But when sins reach a certain stage God is righteously INDIGNANT and judiciously applies judgement. Both are emotions. I don't ever remember saying that God was angry with our Lord Jesus. But two things are evident; (i) Our Lord Jesus was "afflicted" by God, and (ii) the effects of the righteous wrath of God were played out in Gethsemane and on Golgotha. And to close our comprehensive discussion I would just like to re-iterate that if the plain unambiguous language of our Lord Jesus indicates that the Father "forsook" Him - He did. For those last three hours under God's judgement, Jesus was ALL alone.

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    5,892

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    There is talk of a specific heaven in the verse above.

    It is only the atmospheric 1st heaven where the birds fly, that whirlwinds blow, and pick up men, and fly them through the air.
    This doesn't occur in the 2nd inter-stellar heaven, and it isn't recorded as occuring in any verses that describe the 3rd pearly-gates heaven either.

    Elijah was taken in an earthly tornado into the air, and flung out of sight.
    They even saw it with their earthly, eyes right in from of them, and they even tried to find where it blew him.

    The only heaven 2 Kings 2 could be describing, is the atmospheric, heaven where birds fly and twisters blow.



    Jesus is the only human to bodily ascend through and beyond the 1st and/or 2nd heavens; into the third heavens where the streets of gold are.

    Acts 1:9 A"nd when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. "


    Now to be specific, which of the three heavens described in scripture did Jesus ascend to as his destination (yes this one went 'through' the first heaven where clouds are)...but where is the destination heaven?

    Stephen tells you which of the three heavens Jesus ascended to as His bodily destination.
    Acts 7:55 "Stephen, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of Gdo. "

    The same 3rd Heaven that Jesus' spirit went to at the cross when He gave up the ghost.

    Matthew 23:43 "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. "

    The same 3rd Heaven that is called paradise, that Paul mentioned in the vision here:

    2 Corinthians 12:1 "I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words"
    Except for your last proffered verse, 2nd Corinthians 12:2, not one single verse indicates how many heavens there are. And 2nd Corinthians 12:2 might tell us where Paul was raptured to, but NOT Elijah. As you have already said there is NO SCRIPTURE which indicates which heaven Elijah went to. Further, this talk of "streets of gold" and "pearly gates" sounds like fairy tales. Have you got some scripture for that? I understood that New Jerusalem is DIFFERENT to the Heavens since it comes down FROM heaven TO earth. That is, if it comes FROM somewhere, it cannot be that somewhere. Thus, it is New Jerusalem AND NOT HEAVEN that has a "street" (SINGULAR - Rev.21:21, 2:2) of gold. And it is New Jerusalem that had Gates depicted by 12 pearls and NOT HEAVEN.

    Let's just agree that Enoch and Elijah are not dead (for no scripture indicates this while scripture indicates that they escaped death), and the Enoch and Elijah are not on earth at the moment. Since they are not dead they cannot be in Hades. That leaves only heaven. Which one? Who knows!

  10. #100

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    But in all this you have ignored what was said. It does not say "CAPTIVES were led captive". It says that "CAPTIVITY was led captive". If the "captivity" is death, as the context would suppose, then death for all in Hades is not overcome yet. It simply has a new Slave Master. It was once the domain of Satan (Heb.2:14), who would not let his "captives" free (Isa. 14:17), but now is the domain of our Lord Jesus (Rev.1:18). And if the "captivity is death as we know the context to be, then the captives have not moved since the dead RISE when He comes (Second Coming - 1st Cor.15:23).
    I have demonstrated how the Hebrew word for captivity can also mean captives, and how in the cases where the verb and the noun forms are used together, it means captives.

    I did not show the same thing for the Greek and the English. Since Ephesians 4:8 is a quote from Psalm 68:18, the word for captivity or captives should have the same meaning as in the Hebrew in Psalm 68:18, unless it is not allowed by the Greek or English languages.

    First the Greek word translated captivity in Ephesians 4:8 can also mean captive multitude (see https://www.billmounce.com/greek-dictionary/aichmalosia)

    aichmalosia (G161): definition: captivity, state of captivity; captive multitude, Eph. 4:8; Rev. 13:10*
    Ephesians 4:8 Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of prisoners (aichmalōsian | αἰχμαλωσίαν | acc sg fem) captive; he gave gifts to men.”


    Second the English word in different translations that use formal equivalence has been translated as either captivity or host of captives. So I have not ignored what was said.

    Ephesians 4:8 KJV Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
    Ephesians 4:8 YLT wherefore, he saith, `Having gone up on high he led captive captivity, and gave gifts to men,' --
    Ephesians 4:8 RSV Therefore it is said, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”
    Ephesians 4:8 NASB Therefore it says, “When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, And He gave gifts to men.”
    Ephesians 4:8 ESV Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”


    You have misread the grammar. Our Lord did not preach to any spirits in prison while He was dead. The CONTEXT of 1st Peter is the activities of the Holy Spirit (1st Peter 1:2, 11, 22, 3:18, 4:6, 14). 1 Peter 3:18-20 reads;

    18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
    19 By which (Spirit) also he (then) went and preached unto the spirits (now) in prison;
    20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."


    Verse 19 starts with "By which (Spirit - implied by the previous sentence)". The Subject is the Holy Spirit Who, at the time of Noah, preached via Noah, who was, "... a preacher of righteousness,... ." (2nd Pet.2:5). Noah not only built an Ark, but he preached to both men and angels, by the power of the Holy Spirit, of coming judgement. Added to this, there are NO spirits of men in prison. The spirits of dead men RISE to God at death (Eccl.3:21, 12:7). It is ALWAYS, "they/he/she gave UP the ghost". The SOULS of dead men inhabit Hades. According to the context (v.4), the "spirits" were the angels who mixed with human women, and are now in a prison called Tartaroo (see original word in the Greek).
    I disagree with your grammatical analysis. "which" refers to the Spirit. We are agreed. To clarify the meaning of the sentence, let's replace the pronoun "which" with "the Spirit"

    1 Peter 3:19 (modified KJV) By the Spirit also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

    Let me rearrange the word order again.

    1 Peter 3:19 (modified KJV) he also went and preached unto the spirits in prison by the Spirit;

    Do you see that "he" cannot refer to the Spirit? "He" does something "by" the Spirit. "He" refers to Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the subject.

    The ones who were to in 1 Peter 3:19 were judged according to men in the flesh. They are not angels. The gospel was preached to them so that they might live. There was a future hope for them.

    1 Peter 4:6 KJV For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

    You quoted Ecclesiastes 3:21 and 12:7 saying the spirit of men rise. First, Ecc. 3:21 is a question. Second, other translations render it differently.
    Ecclesiastes 3:21 KJV Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
    Ecclesiastes 3:21 ESV Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?

    So you think the spirits are in heaven? So the presence of spirits of just men made perfect in heaven actually agrees with your point of view (Heb. 12:23)? My current thought is that the saved spirits are in heaven but not the unsaved spirits.
    Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    But note how similar Ecclesiastes 12:7 is to Psalm 104:29. The words "spirit" and "breath" both translate the same Hebrew word "ruch" (H7307). Does God taking away their breath refer to bringing their spirits to heaven? Possibly, but these two verses do not make that clear to me.
    Psalm 104:29 KJV Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

    Answer this question, if for yourself only. If you were a Pharisee, well schooled in the Tanakh, would you believe that a dead man would go to Sheol or to somewhere else?
    To find out, I looked up a Jewish website: https://www.chabad.org/library/artic...fter-Death.htm

    After death, the soul returns to its divine Source, together with all the G‑dliness it has “extracted” from the physical world by using it for meaningful purposes. The soul now relives its experiences on another plane, and experiences the good it accomplished during its physical lifetime as incredible happiness and pleasure, and the negative as incredibly painful. ...
    The soul’s experience of the G‑dliness it brought into the world with its mitzvot and positive actions is the exquisite pleasure of Gan Eden (the “Garden of Eden”—Paradise); its experience of the destructiveness it wrought through its lapses and transgressions is the excruciating pain of Gehinnom (“Gehenna” or “Purgatory”).


    So the "sign" our Lord set before them was not if our Lord could be seen in Sheol, but that He would publicly die, and be publicly seen back on earth after three days and nights. There is no doubt, I believe, that the Pharisee knew where Sheol was.
    The Jewish explanation of the soul after death doesn't talk about the soul being in Sheol or under the earth. Do you have an example of a "sign" in the Bible that cannot be directly observed?

    Matthew 12:38 KJV Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

    And you have, in an earlier posting, agreed that it is under the earth.
    Yes. I wanted to add that Jesus' tomb was cut out of the rock, and had a rock ceiling, above which was ground. So Jesus' tomb was underground.

    If not, consider Isaiah 14:1-9. Verse 1-3 are about Israel's restoration of the "House of Jacob". "House of Jacob" is ALL Israelites who ever proceeded from Jacob's loins. This has not yet happened, so Isaiah propesies here of a date future to us today.
    You think that ALL Israelites who ever proceeded from Jacob's loins will live in the land of the LORD? I think the remnant will be saved. I agree that the restoration is future.

    Matthew 3:9 KJV And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

    Matthew 8:10 KJV When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Romans 9:27 KJV Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

    Verses 4-7 show Christ's quest against the power of Babylon and any other ruler. This has not yet happened. The evil Gentiles still rule as we converse. Verse 7 particularly speaks of a time when the WHOLE world is at rest. This only happens in the Millennium.
    Good interpretation. This does sound like it refers to the time of the Second Coming and the end of the tribulation and the beginning of the millennium

    And then we come to verse 9;

    "SHEOL from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it (thy coming) stirreth up the dead for thee, ... ."
    "thy coming" and "thee " are not referring to Jesus' coming. It is referring to the king of Babylon, who has become weak, namely the devil.

    Isaiah 14:9 KJV Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. 10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

    From this we see clearly, as in other scriptures,
    • that Sheol IS BENEATH the earth all the time until Messiah's Coming
    • that Sheol will be influenced by Messiah's coming
    • that Sheol will give up some dead at Messiah's COMING
    • that the "Coming" spoken of is, according to the context, not the first coming when Sheol claimed Messiah, but that connected with the Millennium - the end of our age
    Messiah's coming to earth is around the same time as Satan's going to the bottomless pit. I agree with your points.

    Take your time. I believe you are halfway there. When you embrace the THREE parts of man and where they go at death, you will be left only with your own honesty. Where does the spirit of man go at death? Where does the SOUL of man, that is, the man, go at death? Where does the BODY of man go at death? As I say, take your time. Our Lord Jesus is the Prime example.
    THREE parts of man. As I mentioned before, the soul, heart, and spirit seem to be referring to the same thing in the Bible. You said earlier in post #49:

    (1) I agree fully that the spirit of man is intelligent and animated. It is made of conscience, intuition and fellowship. It the Holy of Holies in a man where God lives (Jn.3:6). It is the Lamp of the Lord (Prov.20:27). It is man's life (Jas.2:26). I am aware of all these things.
    The conscience is related to the heart, but I did not find the conscience explicitly being described as being in the spirit. I don't know how to search for intuition in the Bible.
    Romans 2:15 KJV Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

    Do you mean fellowship with God? Like talking to God?
    Psalm 16:2 KJV O my soul, thou hast said unto the Lord, Thou art my Lord: my goodness extendeth not to thee;
    Psalm 35:9 KJV And my soul shall be joyful in the Lord: it shall rejoice in his salvation.
    Psalm 84:2 KJV My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of the Lord: my heart and my flesh crieth out for the living God.
    Psalm 103:1 KJV Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name.
    Luke 1:46 KJV And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

    The spirit of a man should be holy. Agreed. Jesus dwells in our hearts. I'm not sure if you think of spirit of man as purer than the soul, but it is also subject to filthiness, like haughtiness.

    Ephesians 3:17 KJV That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
    2 Corinthians 7:1 KJV Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
    Proverbs 16:18 KJV Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

    Prov. 20:27 about the spirit being a lamp is interesting. James 2:26 --> the soul is also called man's life. (Matthew 16:15-16)

    I never add or subtract from scripture. For me, it says what it says. If I have a problem with it, I take it to mean that I have an dull and fallen intellect which needs heavenly light. I do no FORCE the scripture to mean what I want it to. If scripture says that men die once, they die once - period. This is even more enjoyable (yes I love God's Word and revel in it) when one considers that there is not a SINGLE case in the whole Bible of any man dying twice. If Enoch and Elijah are alive and missing from earth, then there is no problem for Lazarus or Moses, or for that matter the hoard of saints resurrected just after Christ (Matt.27:53). Our Lord Jesus, a Man in His BODY has been missing for nigh on 2,000 years and you and I have no problem believing that He has not died twice.
    So you think people can disappear without dying. True enough. I agree that our problems understanding Scripture could be our dull and fallen intellect.

    No. Read it again. It says "IN ALL THINGS".
    Colossians 1:18 KJV And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
    OK.

    Just consider our exchange. I have laid forth what the Bible says and confounded what it does not say. Plain and simple language is on my side. You have to go to great lengths to find a reason why simple scriptures mean something else. Could it be, that you, JUST I HAD TO (I was a Catholic for 28 years), must extricate yourself out of the bog of nearly 2,000 years of a doctrine that overthrows scripture and has no merit except to tell fairy tales to gullible men who had no access to the Bible, to get their attention. Consider again;
    • there is no scripture of a dead man in heaven - not even our Lord Jesus. He "DEscended FIRST" and by that glorious morning of resurrection, had "not yet ascended to His Father".
    • that David, a believer in Christ and coming king of restored Israel (Jer.30:9) is still in Hades. and thus his Sepulcher is still "with us".
    • that dead IN Christ RISE at Christ's 2nd Coming (1st Cor.15:23)
    • that the dead must RISE to meet the living just before the Rapture (1st Thess.4:16-17)
    • there is no scripture that Paradise has moved since Christ's death
    • the dead are unclean
    • the dead are naked
    • the dead require that He Who has the keys to "death and Hades" must use that key
    1 Cor. 15:13-23, the word "rise" is egeiro (G1453), which means to waken or rouse from sleep.
    1 Thess. 4:16-17, the word "rise" is anastesontai (G450), which means to stand up. This is closely related to the word "resurrection", which is anastasis (G386), which means a standing up again.

    In my time on this Forum since 2011, I have had this exchange multiple times. You have expressed a reserved but open attitude. My experience is that the truth is like a seed. It is planted and then one sees no more. But if I am correct, the Holy Spirit will nourish it and it will become more apparent. If it is not the truth, the Holy Spirit will ignore it and it will die a natural death. YOUR job in all of this is to see if what I said is in scripture. If the argument is good, you are bound to consider it. If I have forced and wrested and twisted scripture to get to my point, you may discard it. But if you think that there is merit, you have a responsibility - not to me, but to YOURSELF. How crushing, or how joyous it would be to stand before the judgement Seat of Christ and He says ONE or the OTHER of Matthew 13:15-16
    "For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."
    OR
    "But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear."

    1. The whole of the Babylonian religion offers you a "celestial Lodge" if you follow instructions
    2. The whole of the Bible offers you a sojourn in the place of the dead under the earth "with the Lord" and which is "far better", but which is a temporary thing. The end of our stay in Paradise is to be RESURRECTED with a celestial glory, for to serve Him as kings ON EARTH.

    Which of these is true?
    I've definitely been thinking.

  11. #101

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    My verse from Isaiah was to show that God cannot associate with sin. Do you maintain that God associates with sin, or that He Veiled Himself to SEPARATE Himself from anything profane?
    OK. I agree that God doesn't like sin. He allows the pure in heart to ascend His hill (Ps. 24:3-4). But God can also be very patient even with sinners (Gen. 6:3).

    John 9:31 KJV Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
    32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
    33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.


    Isaiah 59:1-2 is not mainly about association, but about the Israelites getting help. The separation causes God not to hear.

    Isaiah 59:1 KJV Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
    2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.


    You did not challenge my quotation of Psalm 22:24 that God did not hide His face from Jesus and heard Him. If separation causes God not to hear, and God heard Jesus, doesn't that formula suggest that God was not separated from Jesus?

    Another interesting thought is that the blood of the sin offering was brought into the most holy place. The sin offering represents the sin. But somehow the blood is considered holy, when it pays the penalty for sin. The non-day of atonement sin offerings are most holy too. The holy priests even eat its flesh! Jesus is a sin offering, so He too is most holy as a sin offering.

    Exodus 30:10 KJV And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the Lord.

    Leviticus 6:17 KJV It shall not be baken with leaven. I have given it unto them for their portion of my offerings made by fire; it is most holy, as is the sin offering, and as the trespass offering.

    Your word study of "forsaken" is not quite up to standard. Here is Strong on the Hebrew Word:
    • Transliteration: azab, Phonetic Pronunciation:aw-zab', Verb,
    • Usage Notes: Of a toral count of 215 times it is rendered "forsake" 129 times, "leave" 72 X, "leave off " 4 X, "faileth" 2 X.
    • a primitive root meaning; "to relinquish", "to permit", "to forsake", "to leave destitute", "to leave off", "to refuse".

    (Strong's Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.)

    Here is Vine Verbatim on the word:
    Forsake (To)
    Strong's Number: <H5800>
    Original Word: azab
    Usage Notes: "to leave, forsake, abandon, leave behind, be left over, let go." The word occurs in biblical Hebrew about 215 times and in all periods. Basically "azab" means "to depart from something," or "to leave."
    • This is the meaning of the word in its first biblical appearance: "[For this cause] shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife…" (Gen. 2:24). A special nuance of the word is "to leave in the lurch," or to leave someone who is depending upon one's services. So Moses said to Hobab the Midianite (Kenite): "Leave us not [in the lurch] I pray thee; forasmuch as thou knowest how we are to encamp in the wilderness, and thou mayest be to us instead of eyes" (Num. 10:31).
    • The word also carries the meaning "forsake," or "leave entirely." Such passages convey a note of finality or completeness. So Isaiah is to preach that "…the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings" (Isa. 7:16). In other places, the abandonment is complete but not necessarily permanent. God says that Israel is "as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit…. For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee" (Isa. 54:6-7). In Akkadian, this word carries a technical sense of "completely and permanently abandoned" or "divorced." Isaiah employs this sense in Isaiah 62:4: "Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken;… but thou shalt be called [My delight is in her], and thy land [Married]…."
    • Another special use of the word is "to disregard advice": "But he forsook the counsel of the old men which they had given him…" (1 Kings 12:8).
    • A second emphasis of ?azab is "to leave behind," meaning to allow something to remain while one leaves the scene. In Gen. 39:12, Joseph "left" his garment in the hand of Potiphar's wife and fled. The word may also refer to an intentional "turning over one's possessions to another's trust," or "leaving something in one's control." Potiphar "left all that he had in Joseph's hand" (Gen. 39:6).
    • In a somewhat different nuance, the word means to "let someone or something alone with a problem": "If thou see the ass of him that hateth thee lying under his burden, and wouldest forbear to help him…" (Exod. 23:5). Used figuratively, ?azab means to "put distance between" in a spiritual or intellectual sense: "Cease from anger, and forsake wrath…" (Psa. 37:8). The third emphasis of the word is "to be left over," or "to take most of something and leave the rest behind": "And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them [over] for the poor and stranger: I am the Lord your God" (Lev. 19:10). Finally, ?azab can mean "to let go" or "allow to leave." The "stupid and senseless men" are those who make no provision for the future; they die leaving ("allowing it to go") their wealth to others (Psa. 49:10). A different nuance occurs in Ruth 2:16, where the verb means "to let something lie" on the ground. ?azab can also mean "to give up": "He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them [gives them up] shall have mercy" (Prov. 28:13), and the word can mean "to set free," as in 2 Chron. 28:14: "So the armed men left the captives and the spoil before the princes and all the congregation." Azab can signify "let go," or "make it leave." Concerning evil, Zophar remarks, "…[The wicked] forsake it not, but keep it still within his mouth" (Job 20:13).
    • Azab can mean to "allow someone to do something," as in 2 Chron. 32:31, where "God left [Hezekiah], to try him, that he might know all that was in his heart"; God "let" Hezekiah do whatever he wanted. "Letting an activity go" may also signify its discontinuance: "I pray you, let us leave off this usury" (Neh. 5:10).
    • Azab is sometimes used in a judicial technical sense of "being free," which is the opposite of being in bondage. The Lord will vindicate His people, and will have compassion on His servants "when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left" (Deut. 32:36).

    (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old Testament and New Testament Words.)

    Our job is to apply it as it is, not try to make it mean something else.
    I consulted Vine's Expository Dictionary too before my previous posting regarding Exodus 23:5. I highlighted it in your quotation.

  12. #102
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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    I have demonstrated how the Hebrew word for captivity can also mean captives, and how in the cases where the verb and the noun forms are used together, it means captives.

    I did not show the same thing for the Greek and the English. Since Ephesians 4:8 is a quote from Psalm 68:18, the word for captivity or captives should have the same meaning as in the Hebrew in Psalm 68:18, unless it is not allowed by the Greek or English languages.

    First the Greek word translated captivity in Ephesians 4:8 can also mean captive multitude (see https://www.billmounce.com/greek-dictionary/aichmalosia)

    aichmalosia (G161): definition: captivity, state of captivity; captive multitude, Eph. 4:8; Rev. 13:10*
    Ephesians 4:8 Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of prisoners (aichmalōsian | αἰχμαλωσίαν | acc sg fem) captive; he gave gifts to men.”


    Second the English word in different translations that use formal equivalence has been translated as either captivity or host of captives. So I have not ignored what was said.

    Ephesians 4:8 KJV Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
    Ephesians 4:8 YLT wherefore, he saith, `Having gone up on high he led captive captivity, and gave gifts to men,' --
    Ephesians 4:8 RSV Therefore it is said, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”
    Ephesians 4:8 NASB Therefore it says, “When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, And He gave gifts to men.”
    Ephesians 4:8 ESV Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”




    I disagree with your grammatical analysis. "which" refers to the Spirit. We are agreed. To clarify the meaning of the sentence, let's replace the pronoun "which" with "the Spirit"

    1 Peter 3:19 (modified KJV) By the Spirit also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

    Let me rearrange the word order again.

    1 Peter 3:19 (modified KJV) he also went and preached unto the spirits in prison by the Spirit;

    Do you see that "he" cannot refer to the Spirit? "He" does something "by" the Spirit. "He" refers to Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the subject.

    The ones who were to in 1 Peter 3:19 were judged according to men in the flesh. They are not angels. The gospel was preached to them so that they might live. There was a future hope for them.

    1 Peter 4:6 KJV For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

    You quoted Ecclesiastes 3:21 and 12:7 saying the spirit of men rise. First, Ecc. 3:21 is a question. Second, other translations render it differently.
    Ecclesiastes 3:21 KJV Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
    Ecclesiastes 3:21 ESV Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?

    So you think the spirits are in heaven? So the presence of spirits of just men made perfect in heaven actually agrees with your point of view (Heb. 12:23)? My current thought is that the saved spirits are in heaven but not the unsaved spirits.
    Ecclesiastes 12:7 KJV Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    But note how similar Ecclesiastes 12:7 is to Psalm 104:29. The words "spirit" and "breath" both translate the same Hebrew word "ruch" (H7307). Does God taking away their breath refer to bringing their spirits to heaven? Possibly, but these two verses do not make that clear to me.
    Psalm 104:29 KJV Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.


    To find out, I looked up a Jewish website: https://www.chabad.org/library/artic...fter-Death.htm

    After death, the soul returns to its divine Source, together with all the G‑dliness it has “extracted” from the physical world by using it for meaningful purposes. The soul now relives its experiences on another plane, and experiences the good it accomplished during its physical lifetime as incredible happiness and pleasure, and the negative as incredibly painful. ...
    The soul’s experience of the G‑dliness it brought into the world with its mitzvot and positive actions is the exquisite pleasure of Gan Eden (the “Garden of Eden”—Paradise); its experience of the destructiveness it wrought through its lapses and transgressions is the excruciating pain of Gehinnom (“Gehenna” or “Purgatory”).




    The Jewish explanation of the soul after death doesn't talk about the soul being in Sheol or under the earth. Do you have an example of a "sign" in the Bible that cannot be directly observed?

    Matthew 12:38 KJV Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


    Yes. I wanted to add that Jesus' tomb was cut out of the rock, and had a rock ceiling, above which was ground. So Jesus' tomb was underground.



    You think that ALL Israelites who ever proceeded from Jacob's loins will live in the land of the LORD? I think the remnant will be saved. I agree that the restoration is future.

    Matthew 3:9 KJV And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

    Matthew 8:10 KJV When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Romans 9:27 KJV Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:


    Good interpretation. This does sound like it refers to the time of the Second Coming and the end of the tribulation and the beginning of the millennium



    "thy coming" and "thee " are not referring to Jesus' coming. It is referring to the king of Babylon, who has become weak, namely the devil.

    Isaiah 14:9 KJV Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. 10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?


    Messiah's coming to earth is around the same time as Satan's going to the bottomless pit. I agree with your points.



    THREE parts of man. As I mentioned before, the soul, heart, and spirit seem to be referring to the same thing in the Bible. You said earlier in post #49:



    The conscience is related to the heart, but I did not find the conscience explicitly being described as being in the spirit. I don't know how to search for intuition in the Bible.
    Romans 2:15 KJV Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

    Do you mean fellowship with God? Like talking to God?
    Psalm 16:2 KJV O my soul, thou hast said unto the Lord, Thou art my Lord: my goodness extendeth not to thee;
    Psalm 35:9 KJV And my soul shall be joyful in the Lord: it shall rejoice in his salvation.
    Psalm 84:2 KJV My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of the Lord: my heart and my flesh crieth out for the living God.
    Psalm 103:1 KJV Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name.
    Luke 1:46 KJV And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

    The spirit of a man should be holy. Agreed. Jesus dwells in our hearts. I'm not sure if you think of spirit of man as purer than the soul, but it is also subject to filthiness, like haughtiness.

    Ephesians 3:17 KJV That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
    2 Corinthians 7:1 KJV Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
    Proverbs 16:18 KJV Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

    Prov. 20:27 about the spirit being a lamp is interesting. James 2:26 --> the soul is also called man's life. (Matthew 16:15-16)


    So you think people can disappear without dying. True enough. I agree that our problems understanding Scripture could be our dull and fallen intellect.


    Colossians 1:18 KJV And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
    OK.


    1 Cor. 15:13-23, the word "rise" is egeiro (G1453), which means to waken or rouse from sleep.
    1 Thess. 4:16-17, the word "rise" is anastesontai (G450), which means to stand up. This is closely related to the word "resurrection", which is anastasis (G386), which means a standing up again.


    I've definitely been thinking.
    Thank you for the courtesy of a comprehensive answer. I have read through it and noted it. No man can really know what is happening inside another man, but if I were to make a guess, you have been faced with something new and it is at odds with what you understood until now. This happens multiple times in life and the process for an intelligent man is usually the same. The initial reaction is to reject it because it does not fit our concept. Then, the there comes the doubt in the old concept because the argument for the new is so good. Then comes a period of investigation and the energetic attempt to trash this new concept. This "devil's advocate" effort is a very good part of the process because the honest man can satisfy himself one way or the other. And in all of this is TIME. In Ephesians Chapter 4 we have TWO unities. We have the unity of the Spirit which has already been established. This already established unity we must "With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; ... keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace" (Eph.4:2-3),

    The Chapter continues with the process of Christ's death and His giving of the Spiritual Gifts to build the Church. One of them is "Teacher" and his job is to "cut the Word correctly" to make it understandable to the rest. The result of this teaching is that a SECOND UNITY is established - the "unity of our FAITH" - that is, what we believe. And the salient word in this process of coming to the UNITY of FAITH is TIME. It reads in verse 13 "TILL". This implies that the teaching goes on UNTIL we all arrive at a consensus.

    The enemy of this scheme is stubborn, proud, rebellious men. They are too proud to acknowledge that they have held something in error, they are too stubborn to quietly sit down and go through the evidence, and they rebel against anything new. These men are fools, and the evidence is that if you do not consider a good argument even though it is clearly the truth, God will darken your mind. God cannot suffer men who "hold the truth in unrighteousness" (Rom.1:18-20). Let us all be prepared to go through that awful (for the proud man) moment of humility and admit that the other brother has a compelling argument, and then go through the even worse moment when we must admit that we were wrong. But it is so good to go through this process. The truth gleaned and embraced will set you free. The Word of God become clearer and one can rejoice in is beauty and cleverness. One can modify one's behavior to achieve that Word and so please God. And finally, God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. To embrace that humbling moment when we acknowledge we have held the wrong view, and admit and follow the new, is to receive grace. And we all need grace.

    Take your time to consider what has been said in our exchange.

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