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Thread: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

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  1. #1
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    When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Matthew 27:44 "The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth. Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elijah. And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elijah will come to save him. Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom "


    It is more and more common these days, that I hear of this passage; that the Father:

    • Turned His Back on Jesus
    • Forsook Jesus
    • Looked Away from Jesus
    • Abandoned Jesus as He took upon Himself the sins of the world
    • etc...


    I believe this is one of those 'sound-bytes' that isn't a 'sound' byte at all, but rather an unsound byte.
    It is something that is becoming more and more accepted; as more and more people become biblically illiterate.

    If the Father really didn't forsake Jesus, at this moment, as I am suggesting, then was Jesus wrong?

    I think neither. I think those who do not properly understand what Jesus said, and why, are just as misunderstood on that phrase, as those standing there, thinking Jesus was calling for the prophet Elijah for help.

    Neither was the case.

    Jesus knew exactly what He was saying, and why He was saying it.

    Here is what He said and why.

    Jesus knew the OT Scriptures, and He often quoted them to the crowds to teach.
    In His final words hanging on the cross before death, He makes this final quotation of Scripture, to be a final exclamation point on who He was, what His ministry was about, and the eternal rammifications of Him dying on the cross was, in fulfillment of the Scriptures.

    Jesus was in one short statement, reminding all, that this day of His crucifixion, had been prophesied over a thousand years ago, in striking details. That those Psalmic prophecies, were being fulfilled in that very moment, under their eyes.
    Anyone listening who knew the Psalms, understood Jesus' final claim of ultimate truth.

    Psalms 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? 22:2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
    22:3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
    22:4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
    22:5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
    22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
    22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
    22:8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
    22:9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
    22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
    22:11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
    22:12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
    22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
    22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
    22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
    22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
    22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
    22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
    22:19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
    22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
    22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
    22:22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the church(Hebrews 2;11) will I praise thee.
    22:23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
    22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
    22:25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
    22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
    22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
    22:28 For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.
    22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
    22:30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
    22:31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

    Forsaken of the Father, looked away from, never.

    Vindicated as the prophets fortold, as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords?
    AMEN and AMEN. Hallelujah AMEN!!

  2. #2
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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    I took this to mean Jesus had the feeling of God forsaking Him. He was experiencing the same grief that inspired David to write the Psalm. It's not really stating a fact one way or the other, it's just meant to convey an emotion like most songs. The end of 22 reveals faith underneath those expressions.
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


  3. #3
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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Matthew 27:44 "The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth. Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elijah. And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elijah will come to save him. Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom "


    It is more and more common these days, that I hear of this passage; that the Father:

    • Turned His Back on Jesus
    • Forsook Jesus
    • Looked Away from Jesus
    • Abandoned Jesus as He took upon Himself the sins of the world
    • etc...


    I believe this is one of those 'sound-bytes' that isn't a 'sound' byte at all, but rather an unsound byte.
    It is something that is becoming more and more accepted; as more and more people become biblically illiterate.

    If the Father really didn't forsake Jesus, at this moment, as I am suggesting, then was Jesus wrong?

    I think neither. I think those who do not properly understand what Jesus said, and why, are just as misunderstood on that phrase, as those standing there, thinking Jesus was calling for the prophet Elijah for help.

    Neither was the case.

    Jesus knew exactly what He was saying, and why He was saying it.

    Here is what He said and why.

    Jesus knew the OT Scriptures, and He often quoted them to the crowds to teach.
    In His final words hanging on the cross before death, He makes this final quotation of Scripture, to be a final exclamation point on who He was, what His ministry was about, and the eternal rammifications of Him dying on the cross was, in fulfillment of the Scriptures.

    Jesus was in one short statement, reminding all, that this day of His crucifixion, had been prophesied over a thousand years ago, in striking details. That those Psalmic prophecies, were being fulfilled in that very moment, under their eyes.
    Anyone listening who knew the Psalms, understood Jesus' final claim of ultimate truth.

    Psalms 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? 22:2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
    22:3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
    22:4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
    22:5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
    22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
    22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
    22:8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
    22:9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
    22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
    22:11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
    22:12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
    22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
    22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
    22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
    22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
    22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
    22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
    22:19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
    22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
    22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
    22:22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the church(Hebrews 2;11) will I praise thee.
    22:23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
    22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
    22:25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
    22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
    22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
    22:28 For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.
    22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
    22:30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
    22:31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

    Forsaken of the Father, looked away from, never.

    Vindicated as the prophets fortold, as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords?
    AMEN and AMEN. Hallelujah AMEN!!
    I think the plain language, and some other facts will make your point of view difficult. First the plain language. I add Young's Literal to add another witness.
    Matthew 27:46 (KJV); "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
    Matthew 27:46 (YLT); "and about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a great voice, saying, `Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?' that is, `My God, my God, why didst Thou forsake me?'"

    Much can be gleaned from this verse but here are three things:
    1. "Father". The relationship is not that of the Triune God. It is the relationship of One who has "begotten" the other. In Psalm 2:7, repeated in Acts 13:33, Hebrews 1:5 and 5:5, it is; "... Thou art my Son; this DAY have I begotten thee." This is a relationship of God to a creature - a Man
    2. "why did you forsake me". The grammar does not allow anything else but that the Father forsook Him.
    3. "why ... ". This shows confusion. In all His ministry, from age 12, our Lord was sure of Himself "teaching as one who had authority". But this "why" shows the confusion of a Man left by God. In John 18:4, while God was still with Him, it reads "Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?" He is fully in the picture here. Then, in that dreadful moment of confusion, He is bewildered - sure sign that God HAD left Him. But the confusion is short-lived for we read that seconds later, in John 19:28, "After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst."

    That is the evidence of the verse. Let us now consider His death. Why should He pass through this indescribable agony, humiliation and separation from His Father? The answer is that God, in His utter righteousness, CANNOT look upon sin. It must be dealt with in righteousness. EVERY offense must be punished adequately. This is shown from Eden till New Jerusalem. RETRIBUTION and RESTORATION (if possible) commensurate with the offense is righteous. If it were not so then our Lord Jesus did not have to become a Man, and He did not have to go through this terrible event. God, in His pure righteousness required RETRIBUTION for ALL offenses of ALL men from Adam to Magog. And 2nd Corinthians 5:21 tells us what God "MADE" of Christ to "MAKE" of us. "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

    Furthermore, while men might have done their worst, the agony unfolded onto Jesus was probably the hundred-fold of what a man can normally take for we read that God AFFLICTED Him. Matthew 10:28 says that NOT men, NOT demons, NOT angels will afflict men for their sins but "... rather fear HIM (God) which is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." This is carried out by God for in Isaiah 53:4 we read; "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."

    Summary:
    • God cannot wink at even one little sin. He is 100% righteous
    • Either men paid for their sins of Christ did
    • Retribution comes from both men and God. God's is much worse and God "afflicted" Jesus
    • God cannot have anything to do with sin and sins. When He MADE Jesus to be sin for us, He had no option but to FORSAKE Him.

  4. #4
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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Interesting about the Psalms you quoted... I happened to be on a site that made this comment which I thought interesting also:
    It says very clearly that God forsook Jesus. "Why have you forsaken me?" Christ asks, because now He was on His own completely and totally for the first time in His life.

  5. #5

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Just an observation:

    The word for stone is 'aben' אבן . The stone was struck and split, from which poured living water.

    If this is a picture of the cross, the the ab - father was split from the ben - son. Or is it just a coincidence

  6. #6

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    God "forsook" Jesus by not helping Him

    Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

    God did not look away from Jesus or hide His face from Jesus. God's ears were open, but He did not prevent Jesus' death.

    Psalm 22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

    God the Father was with Jesus.

    John 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

    The Holy Spirit was with Jesus.

    Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    God "forsook" Jesus by not helping Him

    Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

    God did not look away from Jesus or hide His face from Jesus. God's ears were open, but He did not prevent Jesus' death.

    Psalm 22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

    God the Father was with Jesus.

    John 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

    The Holy Spirit was with Jesus.

    Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
    Jesus says; "Father, why have you forsaken me .... ?"

    greenonions says; "Lord Jesus, your Father has NOT forsaken you?"

    Who shall we believe? But what is worse is that you pit one verse against another, making the Bible a contradiction and valueless. Shall we not reconcile the scriptures. To to that you have to deal with what our Lord Jesus said.

  8. #8

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Jesus says; "Father, why have you forsaken me .... ?"

    greenonions says; "Lord Jesus, your Father has NOT forsaken you?"

    Who shall we believe? But what is worse is that you pit one verse against another, making the Bible a contradiction and valueless. Shall we not reconcile the scriptures. To to that you have to deal with what our Lord Jesus said.
    Hi Walls. I think God did forsake Jesus. But what does "forsake" mean? I think it means that God did not help him and rescue Him from the cross. If you were in trouble, and I left you hanging there, I am forsaking you in one sense, even if I am standing nearby.

    The word for "forsake" in Psalm 22:1 is azab (H5800). Here is Strong's definition. Perhaps it could mean to loosen in the sense of not keeping Jesus tightly under God's protection?

    עָזַב ʻâzab, aw-zab'; a primitive root; to loosen, i.e. relinquish, permit, etc.:—commit self, fail, forsake, fortify, help, leave (destitute, off), refuse, × surely.

  9. #9

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Jesus says; "Father, why have you forsaken me .... ?"

    greenonions says; "Lord Jesus, your Father has NOT forsaken you?"

    Who shall we believe? But what is worse is that you pit one verse against another, making the Bible a contradiction and valueless. Shall we not reconcile the scriptures. To to that you have to deal with what our Lord Jesus said.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    Hi Walls. I think God did forsake Jesus. But what does "forsake" mean? I think it means that God did not help him and rescue Him from the cross. If you were in trouble, and I left you hanging there, I am forsaking you in one sense, even if I am standing nearby.

    The word for "forsake" in Psalm 22:1 is azab (H5800). Here is Strong's definition. Perhaps it could mean to loosen in the sense of not keeping Jesus tightly under God's protection?

    עָזַב ʻâzab, aw-zab'; a primitive root; to loosen, i.e. relinquish, permit, etc.:—commit self, fail, forsake, fortify, help, leave (destitute, off), refuse, × surely.
    I realized that I should also check the meaning of the Greek and Aramaic, which may further specify the meaning of forsake.

    Matthew 27:46 NIV About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

    sabachthani G4518: thou hast left me; sabachthani (i.e. shebakthani), a cry of distress:—sabachthan
    enkataleipo G1459: to leave behind in some place, i.e. (in a good sense) let remain over, or (in a bad sense) to desert:—forsake, leave.

    I still think that God abandoned Jesus in the sense of not rescuing Him. God was within earshot, as Jesus cried out to Him expecting Him to hear.

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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    I realized that I should also check the meaning of the Greek and Aramaic, which may further specify the meaning of forsake.

    Matthew 27:46 NIV About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

    sabachthani G4518: thou hast left me; sabachthani (i.e. shebakthani), a cry of distress:—sabachthan
    enkataleipo G1459: to leave behind in some place, i.e. (in a good sense) let remain over, or (in a bad sense) to desert:—forsake, leave.

    I still think that God abandoned Jesus in the sense of not rescuing Him. God was within earshot, as Jesus cried out to Him expecting Him to hear.
    OK. To each their own opinion. I think we have exhausted the arguments. God bless.

  11. #11

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    OK. To each their own opinion. I think we have exhausted the arguments. God bless.
    I thought I would have the chance to engage you more this time!

    I have one more thought. Do you think Psalm 22 described David's experience, or it was all about Jesus? Because that might give insight into how God forsook David -- and it might be in the same sense that God forsook Jesus. David complained about many physical torments and emotional abuse, much of which we see in Jesus' experience too. The Bible says that God left Saul, but I don't think God left David. Even when David sinned, he prayed that God would not cast David from His presence or take His Holy Spirit from David (Psalm 51:11), which seems to mean that those things did not yet happen to David.

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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    I thought I would have the chance to engage you more this time!

    I have one more thought. Do you think Psalm 22 described David's experience, or it was all about Jesus? Because that might give insight into how God forsook David
    I believe it is usually about David but some things are Messianic...but I don't believe God forsook David either...David in his own personal weakness doubted God.

    -- and it might be in the same sense that God forsook Jesus.
    God cannot forsake God...it's not possible and when David said God forsook him, David was wrong.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    I thought I would have the chance to engage you more this time!

    I have one more thought. Do you think Psalm 22 described David's experience, or it was all about Jesus? Because that might give insight into how God forsook David -- and it might be in the same sense that God forsook Jesus. David complained about many physical torments and emotional abuse, much of which we see in Jesus' experience too. The Bible says that God left Saul, but I don't think God left David. Even when David sinned, he prayed that God would not cast David from His presence or take His Holy Spirit from David (Psalm 51:11), which seems to mean that those things did not yet happen to David.
    Sure. I don't mind discussing anything. It's just that the various arguments had been laid down and anything more than this just derails the tread.

    I will answer you question about David presently but I must comment on the main argument produced by some of our esteemed brothers, especially ewq1938 in posting #30, that (i) God would never leave anyone - let alone His beloved Son, and (ii) God cannot leave God. For this he offers Hebrew 13:5 written to men who came from the law of Moses, and Luke 23:44-46 and Acts.2:23-27. No doubt, he would also like me to mention Matthew 28:20, "... and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the AGE. Amen." But do these verses show what he proposes?

    First let scripture speak its clear message.
    In Ephesians 4:17-19 it is;
    17 "This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
    18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
    19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness."

    In Colossians 1:21-22 we are told:
    21 "And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
    22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:"

    In Isaiah 59:2 it is; "But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear."
    What about iniquities in Deuteronomyt 31:17, 32:19, Proverbs 15:29, Isaiah 57:17, Ezekiel 39:23-24 and Micah 3:4?Sin and sins alienate God and drive Him away.

    So it is clear that sin "ALIENATES GOD" from a man. That said, we must deal with ewq1938's proffered verses for scripture cannot contradict itself.

    Matthew 28:20 is quickly understood. God will be with disciples - Christians, ONLY UNTIL THE END OF THE AGE! Why? Because the Parables of the Kingdom, and direct statements (Gal.5:21; Eph.5:5) tell us that those Christians who are slothful, sinful and unfaithful will be cast OUT of the Kingdom and into OUTER DARKNESS. The good, diligent, faultless and loving Christians ENTER the "joy of the Lord". Our Lord's promise to be with us ends at the judgement seat of Christ. And since the casting OUT of slothful and sinful Christians is a fact, the Matthew 28:20 PROVES that God SEPARATES Himself from sinners.

    Hebrews 13:5 is written to ex-Jews who used to embrace Moses and have now turned to Christ. The whole Book of Hebrews addresses the ex-Hebrew. That is why the Law and the Tabernacle are contrasted so many times. Under the Law of Moses, if a man obeyed Moses, he would automatically prosper and be wealthy (Deut.8:11-18). But now he obeys Christ and he becomes poor (Heb.10:32-34). Moses guaranteed wealth for obedience. Christ asks one to give away one's substance. The temptation is big for the ex-Jew to return to Moses. This is what the Book is about. So the author of Hebrews pleads with the ex-Jew Convert. He says in essence; "it might look bad giving away your money and goods. It might look like poverty is just over the hill you are climbing. But fear not! Do not covet temporal things. Do not hang onto them. Do not trust them. Give them away if need be. God guarantees food and clothing in the present age". It is in THAT SENSE that "God will never leave you neither forsake you". The issue of SIN and SINS is not addressed in Hebrews 13:5.

    Luke 23:44-46. Man is made of THREE parts, body, soul and spirit (Gen.2:7; 1st Thess.5:23). And all through the Bible man is called a "soul". So the main part is the soul. Where the soul goes, this is where the man goes. The soul descends to Hades in the heart of the earth and stays there until the resurrection. So we learn that David is in Hades 50 days after our Lord Jesus rose from Hades (Act.2:27-34). At death the body returns to the dust on the surface of the earth. The human spirit returns to God Who gave it to wait to join the body and soul again. The human spirit is NOT the man. It is his enlivening organ (Jas.2:26). So throughout scripture we hear of men dying and "giving UP the spirit". Our Lord Jesus was a Man, and at death He gave UP His spirit (Lk.23:46). But our Lord Jesus was different to other men. John 10:18 tells us that; "No man taketh it (my life) from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." So exercising this POWER that the Father gave Him, our Lord Jesus determined the moment that He "gave UP (to God in heaven) His spirit". Thus, Luke 23:46 does not deal with SIN and SINS, but with normal death and the POWER given to Jesus before Golgotha. Finally, the bearing of our sins was, at that moment finished. As these were the last words of our Lord Jesus, He had already said "it is FINISHED". What would be "finished"? His life? NO! He still had some words and some actions to do. What was finished was His duty as the "bearer of sins" (Heb.9:28).

    Thus, Luke 23:44-46 is NOT a proof of God not forsaking Jesus. It deals with other things.

    Acts 2:22-27. I extend the context slightly. What does it say? Does it say that God is not alienated by sin and sins? It is surely prophecy of Jesus for verse 25 says that David spoke concerning Jesus. But equally it is spoken by a man, David. And what is the context. The crucifixion OR the time in Hades? The text speaks NOT of Christ the Substitute on the cross of Golgotha, but Christ the Soul "resting" in Hades (v.26) and being raised from Hades (v.24).

    The word "foresaw" is FUTURE TENSE. It is the "seeing", or foresight of a man in Hades waiting for resurrection. Even if one would prefer to overturn the context and say that it occurred on the cross, even then it does not address sin and sins alienating God. Our Lord Jesus had the Father in view up to His last words on the cross. It was not Jesus who left the Father, but the Father Who left Jesus.

    The phrase "for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved" MUST BE FUTURE because it is spoken from Hades under the earth. Is God in heaven or in Hades at the right hand of men like David? BOTH says Psalm 139:8! "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in HADES (sheol), behold, thou art there." But is this to do with God's alienation by sin and sins? No! It is to do with the hope of Paradise under the earth and resurrection and rapture to the sky. Did not Paul say in Philippians 1:23 concerning his DEATH:- "For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better". Acts 2:22-27 has as its context Hades. It does not address whether God must take a distance from sin and sins.

    And lastly, the argument that God will not forsake God is MOOT! The One on the cross Who took upon Him our sins WAS A MAN, as I have shown in a previous posting (#11). Our Lord Jesus addresses Him as MY GOD! MY GOD! His speech is of a Man to HIS GOD. The word God is "EL" - a designation of God the STRONG and the Man in weakness. 2 Corinthians 13:4 shows the delineation: "For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you." Is God weak? No! It was a Man - crucified in weakness.

  14. #14
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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Our Lord Jesus addresses Him as MY GOD! MY GOD! His speech is of a Man to HIS GOD. The word God is "EL" - a designation of God the STRONG and the Man in weakness.
    Word for word exactly what David wrote and not once did Christ ever address his Father as "God". He always spoke to his Father using the term Father. It is very clear Christ is quoting David not actually saying that God has forsaken him. The Trinity does not forsake itself nor is that possible.

    In Isaiah 59:2 it is; "But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear."
    What about iniquities in Deuteronomyt 31:17, 32:19, Proverbs 15:29, Isaiah 57:17, Ezekiel 39:23-24 and Micah 3:4?Sin and sins alienate God and drive Him away.
    Jesus committed no sin so this does not apply to him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Our Lord Jesus addresses Him as MY GOD! MY GOD! His speech is of a Man to HIS GOD. The word God is "EL" - a designation of God the STRONG and the Man in weakness.
    Word for word exactly what David wrote and not once did Christ ever address his Father as "God". He always spoke to his Father using the term Father. It is very clear Christ is quoting David not actually saying that God has forsaken him. The Trinity does not forsake itself nor is that possible.

    In Isaiah 59:2 it is; "But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear."
    What about iniquities in Deuteronomyt 31:17, 32:19, Proverbs 15:29, Isaiah 57:17, Ezekiel 39:23-24 and Micah 3:4?Sin and sins alienate God and drive Him away.
    Jesus committed no sin so this does not apply to him.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Word for word exactly what David wrote and not once did Christ ever address his Father as "God". He always spoke to his Father using the term Father. It is very clear Christ is quoting David not actually saying that God has forsaken him. The Trinity does not forsake itself nor is that possible.


    The designation in Psalm 2:1 is "El". Its first mention is in Genesis 14:18; "And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God." It is derived from the word "strength" the "strength of the Almighty". The relationship of Jehovah and Jesus on the cross was not that of the Trinity. It was of the "Most High God" versus a Man

    Jesus committed no sin so this does not apply to him.
    Our Lord Jesus committed no sin. BUT ....
    Isaiah 53:4-6: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."

    Isaiah 53:9-12: "And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

    2nd Corinthians 5:21: "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

    1st John 3:5: "And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin."

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