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Thread: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

  1. #1
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    When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Matthew 27:44 "The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth. Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elijah. And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elijah will come to save him. Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom "


    It is more and more common these days, that I hear of this passage; that the Father:

    • Turned His Back on Jesus
    • Forsook Jesus
    • Looked Away from Jesus
    • Abandoned Jesus as He took upon Himself the sins of the world
    • etc...


    I believe this is one of those 'sound-bytes' that isn't a 'sound' byte at all, but rather an unsound byte.
    It is something that is becoming more and more accepted; as more and more people become biblically illiterate.

    If the Father really didn't forsake Jesus, at this moment, as I am suggesting, then was Jesus wrong?

    I think neither. I think those who do not properly understand what Jesus said, and why, are just as misunderstood on that phrase, as those standing there, thinking Jesus was calling for the prophet Elijah for help.

    Neither was the case.

    Jesus knew exactly what He was saying, and why He was saying it.

    Here is what He said and why.

    Jesus knew the OT Scriptures, and He often quoted them to the crowds to teach.
    In His final words hanging on the cross before death, He makes this final quotation of Scripture, to be a final exclamation point on who He was, what His ministry was about, and the eternal rammifications of Him dying on the cross was, in fulfillment of the Scriptures.

    Jesus was in one short statement, reminding all, that this day of His crucifixion, had been prophesied over a thousand years ago, in striking details. That those Psalmic prophecies, were being fulfilled in that very moment, under their eyes.
    Anyone listening who knew the Psalms, understood Jesus' final claim of ultimate truth.

    Psalms 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? 22:2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
    22:3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
    22:4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
    22:5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
    22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
    22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
    22:8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
    22:9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
    22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
    22:11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
    22:12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
    22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
    22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
    22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
    22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
    22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
    22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
    22:19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
    22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
    22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
    22:22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the church(Hebrews 2;11) will I praise thee.
    22:23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
    22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
    22:25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
    22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
    22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
    22:28 For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.
    22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
    22:30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
    22:31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

    Forsaken of the Father, looked away from, never.

    Vindicated as the prophets fortold, as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords?
    AMEN and AMEN. Hallelujah AMEN!!

  2. #2
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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    I took this to mean Jesus had the feeling of God forsaking Him. He was experiencing the same grief that inspired David to write the Psalm. It's not really stating a fact one way or the other, it's just meant to convey an emotion like most songs. The end of 22 reveals faith underneath those expressions.
    여러분은 주님 안에서 항상 기뻐하십시오. 내가 다시 말합니다. 기뻐하십시오.
    모든 사람을 너그럽게 대하십시오. 주님께서 오실 날이 가까웠습니다. Philippians 4


  3. #3
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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Matthew 27:44 "The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth. Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elijah. And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elijah will come to save him. Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom "


    It is more and more common these days, that I hear of this passage; that the Father:

    • Turned His Back on Jesus
    • Forsook Jesus
    • Looked Away from Jesus
    • Abandoned Jesus as He took upon Himself the sins of the world
    • etc...


    I believe this is one of those 'sound-bytes' that isn't a 'sound' byte at all, but rather an unsound byte.
    It is something that is becoming more and more accepted; as more and more people become biblically illiterate.

    If the Father really didn't forsake Jesus, at this moment, as I am suggesting, then was Jesus wrong?

    I think neither. I think those who do not properly understand what Jesus said, and why, are just as misunderstood on that phrase, as those standing there, thinking Jesus was calling for the prophet Elijah for help.

    Neither was the case.

    Jesus knew exactly what He was saying, and why He was saying it.

    Here is what He said and why.

    Jesus knew the OT Scriptures, and He often quoted them to the crowds to teach.
    In His final words hanging on the cross before death, He makes this final quotation of Scripture, to be a final exclamation point on who He was, what His ministry was about, and the eternal rammifications of Him dying on the cross was, in fulfillment of the Scriptures.

    Jesus was in one short statement, reminding all, that this day of His crucifixion, had been prophesied over a thousand years ago, in striking details. That those Psalmic prophecies, were being fulfilled in that very moment, under their eyes.
    Anyone listening who knew the Psalms, understood Jesus' final claim of ultimate truth.

    Psalms 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? 22:2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
    22:3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
    22:4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
    22:5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
    22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
    22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
    22:8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
    22:9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
    22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
    22:11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
    22:12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
    22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
    22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
    22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
    22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
    22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
    22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
    22:19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
    22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
    22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
    22:22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the church(Hebrews 2;11) will I praise thee.
    22:23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
    22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
    22:25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
    22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
    22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
    22:28 For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.
    22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
    22:30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
    22:31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

    Forsaken of the Father, looked away from, never.

    Vindicated as the prophets fortold, as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords?
    AMEN and AMEN. Hallelujah AMEN!!
    I think the plain language, and some other facts will make your point of view difficult. First the plain language. I add Young's Literal to add another witness.
    Matthew 27:46 (KJV); "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"
    Matthew 27:46 (YLT); "and about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a great voice, saying, `Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?' that is, `My God, my God, why didst Thou forsake me?'"

    Much can be gleaned from this verse but here are three things:
    1. "Father". The relationship is not that of the Triune God. It is the relationship of One who has "begotten" the other. In Psalm 2:7, repeated in Acts 13:33, Hebrews 1:5 and 5:5, it is; "... Thou art my Son; this DAY have I begotten thee." This is a relationship of God to a creature - a Man
    2. "why did you forsake me". The grammar does not allow anything else but that the Father forsook Him.
    3. "why ... ". This shows confusion. In all His ministry, from age 12, our Lord was sure of Himself "teaching as one who had authority". But this "why" shows the confusion of a Man left by God. In John 18:4, while God was still with Him, it reads "Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?" He is fully in the picture here. Then, in that dreadful moment of confusion, He is bewildered - sure sign that God HAD left Him. But the confusion is short-lived for we read that seconds later, in John 19:28, "After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst."

    That is the evidence of the verse. Let us now consider His death. Why should He pass through this indescribable agony, humiliation and separation from His Father? The answer is that God, in His utter righteousness, CANNOT look upon sin. It must be dealt with in righteousness. EVERY offense must be punished adequately. This is shown from Eden till New Jerusalem. RETRIBUTION and RESTORATION (if possible) commensurate with the offense is righteous. If it were not so then our Lord Jesus did not have to become a Man, and He did not have to go through this terrible event. God, in His pure righteousness required RETRIBUTION for ALL offenses of ALL men from Adam to Magog. And 2nd Corinthians 5:21 tells us what God "MADE" of Christ to "MAKE" of us. "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

    Furthermore, while men might have done their worst, the agony unfolded onto Jesus was probably the hundred-fold of what a man can normally take for we read that God AFFLICTED Him. Matthew 10:28 says that NOT men, NOT demons, NOT angels will afflict men for their sins but "... rather fear HIM (God) which is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." This is carried out by God for in Isaiah 53:4 we read; "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."

    Summary:
    • God cannot wink at even one little sin. He is 100% righteous
    • Either men paid for their sins of Christ did
    • Retribution comes from both men and God. God's is much worse and God "afflicted" Jesus
    • God cannot have anything to do with sin and sins. When He MADE Jesus to be sin for us, He had no option but to FORSAKE Him.

  4. #4
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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Interesting about the Psalms you quoted... I happened to be on a site that made this comment which I thought interesting also:
    It says very clearly that God forsook Jesus. "Why have you forsaken me?" Christ asks, because now He was on His own completely and totally for the first time in His life.

  5. #5

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Just an observation:

    The word for stone is 'aben' אבן . The stone was struck and split, from which poured living water.

    If this is a picture of the cross, the the ab - father was split from the ben - son. Or is it just a coincidence

  6. #6

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    God "forsook" Jesus by not helping Him

    Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

    God did not look away from Jesus or hide His face from Jesus. God's ears were open, but He did not prevent Jesus' death.

    Psalm 22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

    God the Father was with Jesus.

    John 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

    The Holy Spirit was with Jesus.

    Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

  7. #7

    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    God cannot have anything to do with sin and sins. When He MADE Jesus to be sin for us, He had no option but to FORSAKE Him.
    The first statement is not always true. Therefore, your second statement does not necessarily follow.

    Jesus is God. Jesus, as God, lived among sinners. Jesus, as God, became sin [or a sin offering]. Though there is a sense in which God is separated from sinners.

    Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

  8. #8
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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Matthew 27:44 "The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth. Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elijah. And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elijah will come to save him. Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom "


    It is more and more common these days, that I hear of this passage; that the Father:

    • Turned His Back on Jesus
    • Forsook Jesus
    • Looked Away from Jesus
    • Abandoned Jesus as He took upon Himself the sins of the world
    • etc...


    I believe this is one of those 'sound-bytes' that isn't a 'sound' byte at all, but rather an unsound byte.
    It is something that is becoming more and more accepted; as more and more people become biblically illiterate.

    If the Father really didn't forsake Jesus, at this moment, as I am suggesting, then was Jesus wrong?

    I think neither. I think those who do not properly understand what Jesus said, and why, are just as misunderstood on that phrase, as those standing there, thinking Jesus was calling for the prophet Elijah for help.

    Neither was the case.

    Jesus knew exactly what He was saying, and why He was saying it.

    Here is what He said and why.

    Jesus knew the OT Scriptures, and He often quoted them to the crowds to teach.
    In His final words hanging on the cross before death, He makes this final quotation of Scripture, to be a final exclamation point on who He was, what His ministry was about, and the eternal rammifications of Him dying on the cross was, in fulfillment of the Scriptures.

    Jesus was in one short statement, reminding all, that this day of His crucifixion, had been prophesied over a thousand years ago, in striking details. That those Psalmic prophecies, were being fulfilled in that very moment, under their eyes.
    Anyone listening who knew the Psalms, understood Jesus' final claim of ultimate truth.

    Psalms 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? 22:2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
    22:3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
    22:4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
    22:5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
    22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
    22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
    22:8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
    22:9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
    22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
    22:11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
    22:12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
    22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
    22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
    22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
    22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
    22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
    22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
    22:19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
    22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
    22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
    22:22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the church(Hebrews 2;11) will I praise thee.
    22:23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
    22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
    22:25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
    22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
    22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
    22:28 For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.
    22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
    22:30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
    22:31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

    Forsaken of the Father, looked away from, never.

    Vindicated as the prophets fortold, as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords?
    AMEN and AMEN. Hallelujah AMEN!!
    Over the past 56 years of being a Christian it was taught that God the Father (and it's still taught today) forsook His only begotten Son on that cross. They say God the Father "abandoned" His Son for various reasons including the idea that God cannot look upon sin, therefore He forsook His Son.

    John 16:32 says, "Behold, an hour is coming, and has already come for you to be scattered, each to his own home, and to leave Me alone, and yet, I am not alone, BECAUSE THE FATHER IS WITH ME." Then you have 2 Corinthians 5:19, "namely that God was in Christ reconcilling the world to Himself."

    Now, I'm sure we have all been in situations (more than once or more than we can count) that we "felt" as though God had forsaken us or it seemed He was not there in our state of distress. It was sure like that when I was in Vietnam in 1968 when all hell broke loose during the Tet offensive. I kept asking and praying, "Where are you Lord, get us out of this horrible mess of facing pretty much certain death." Well, obviously He did not forsake me because here I am typing these words praise.

    This is the same thing that happened to David at Psalm 22. King Saul was hunting him down and in his mind, vs11, "there is none to help" deliever him from this "bulls" and "dogs." (vs16). Then David shouts out with praise starting at Psalm 22:22. At vs24 he says, "For He/God has not despised nor abhorred the afliction of the afflicted. NEITHER HAS HE HIDDEN HIS FACE." You can read the rest of the chapter.

    And notice the next Psalm, 23 which is probably the most quoted Psalm of all and the beautifull words of encouragement and love. So I'm Biblically convinced that God the Father did not "really" as in a fact forsook His Son.

    IN GOD THE SON,
    maverick

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Matthew 27:44 "The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth. Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elijah. And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elijah will come to save him. Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom "


    It is more and more common these days, that I hear of this passage; that the Father:

    • Turned His Back on Jesus
    • Forsook Jesus
    • Looked Away from Jesus
    • Abandoned Jesus as He took upon Himself the sins of the world
    • etc...


    I believe this is one of those 'sound-bytes' that isn't a 'sound' byte at all, but rather an unsound byte.
    It is something that is becoming more and more accepted; as more and more people become biblically illiterate.

    If the Father really didn't forsake Jesus, at this moment, as I am suggesting, then was Jesus wrong?

    I think neither. I think those who do not properly understand what Jesus said, and why, are just as misunderstood on that phrase, as those standing there, thinking Jesus was calling for the prophet Elijah for help.

    Neither was the case.

    Jesus knew exactly what He was saying, and why He was saying it.

    Here is what He said and why.

    Jesus knew the OT Scriptures, and He often quoted them to the crowds to teach.
    In His final words hanging on the cross before death, He makes this final quotation of Scripture, to be a final exclamation point on who He was, what His ministry was about, and the eternal rammifications of Him dying on the cross was, in fulfillment of the Scriptures.

    Jesus was in one short statement, reminding all, that this day of His crucifixion, had been prophesied over a thousand years ago, in striking details. That those Psalmic prophecies, were being fulfilled in that very moment, under their eyes.
    Anyone listening who knew the Psalms, understood Jesus' final claim of ultimate truth.

    Psalms 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? 22:2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
    22:3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
    22:4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
    22:5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
    22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
    22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
    22:8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
    22:9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
    22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
    22:11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
    22:12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
    22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
    22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
    22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
    22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
    22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
    22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
    22:19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
    22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
    22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
    22:22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the church(Hebrews 2;11) will I praise thee.
    22:23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
    22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
    22:25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
    22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
    22:27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
    22:28 For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.
    22:29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
    22:30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
    22:31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

    Forsaken of the Father, looked away from, never.

    Vindicated as the prophets fortold, as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords?
    AMEN and AMEN. Hallelujah AMEN!!
    Over the past 56 years of being a Christian it was taught that God the Father (and it's still taught today) forsook His only begotten Son on that cross. They say God the Father "abandoned" His Son for various reasons including the idea that God cannot look upon sin, therefore He forsook His Son.

    John 16:32 says, "Behold, an hour is coming, and has already come for you to be scattered, each to his own home, and to leave Me alone, and yet, I am not alone, BECAUSE THE FATHER IS WITH ME." Then you have 2 Corinthians 5:19, "namely that God was in Christ reconcilling the world to Himself."

    Now, I'm sure we have all been in situations (more than once or more than we can count) that we "felt" as though God had forsaken us or it seemed He was not there in our state of distress. It was sure like that when I was in Vietnam in 1968 when all hell broke loose during the Tet offensive. I kept asking and praying, "Where are you Lord, get us out of this horrible mess of facing pretty much certain death." Well, obviously He did not forsake me because here I am typing these words praise.

    This is the same thing that happened to David at Psalm 22. King Saul was hunting him down and in his mind, vs11, "there is none to help" deliever him from this "bulls" and "dogs." (vs16). Then David shouts out with praise starting at Psalm 22:22. At vs24 he says, "For He/God has not despised nor abhorred the afliction of the afflicted. NEITHER HAS HE HIDDEN HIS FACE." You can read the rest of the chapter.

    And notice the next Psalm, 23 which is probably the most quoted Psalm of all and the beautifull words of encouragement and love. So I'm Biblically convinced that God the Father did not "really" as in a fact forsook His Son.

    IN GOD THE SON,
    maverick

  9. #9
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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    God "forsook" Jesus by not helping Him

    Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

    God did not look away from Jesus or hide His face from Jesus. God's ears were open, but He did not prevent Jesus' death.

    Psalm 22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

    God the Father was with Jesus.

    John 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

    The Holy Spirit was with Jesus.

    Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
    Jesus says; "Father, why have you forsaken me .... ?"

    greenonions says; "Lord Jesus, your Father has NOT forsaken you?"

    Who shall we believe? But what is worse is that you pit one verse against another, making the Bible a contradiction and valueless. Shall we not reconcile the scriptures. To to that you have to deal with what our Lord Jesus said.

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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    I lean toward the Father forsaking him but....
    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Let us now consider His death. Why should He pass through this indescribable agony, humiliation and separation from His Father? The answer is that God, in His utter righteousness, CANNOT look upon sin.
    Why do people say this? Looks at us all 24/7, Satan and friends at the throne etc....why do people say this?


    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Matthew 10:28 says that NOT men, NOT demons, NOT angels will afflict men for their sins but "... rather fear HIM (God) which is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." This is carried out by God for in Isaiah 53:4 we read; "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."
    Read it again.....we esteemed, it does not say he was stricken, smitten of God, they considered him stricken, smitten of God.

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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    God "forsook" Jesus by not helping Him

    Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

    God did not look away from Jesus or hide His face from Jesus. God's ears were open, but He did not prevent Jesus' death.
    • Scripture says that our Lord Jesus asks God why He had forsaken Him. Can then the grammar be more clear? God had forsaken Him.
    • Scripture says that our Lord Jesus asks God why He was so FAR. What does forsake mean? To make a distance. Can the grammar be more clear
    • Scripture says that God was so far from the words of His roaring. What does the grammar say. That God took a distance from our Lord's roaring. What else is a distance but to forsake?
    • Little Jonny falls into the raging torrent. His father is on the bridge. "Father, Father, help me"!, cries little Jonny. Jonny's father runs from the bridge to the next town. Did his father forsake him? Or is the added distance "being with him?"

    Be true to the grammar.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    Psalm 22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

    God the Father was with Jesus.

    John 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
    You must do three things here;
    1. Establish why the Lord Jesus categorically states that the Father forsook Him ON THE CROSS at the end of 6 hours, but this verse say that God was with Him. You have two options. (i) Reconcile the verses, or (ii) be one who declares the Bible a contradiction.
    2. Explain why you make this quote fulfilled on the cross when it was fulfilled in the Garden of Gethsemane? (Matt.26:56)
    3. Show whether the Father left our Lord Jesus in Gethsemane or Golgotha "in that HOUR"?


    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    The Holy Spirit was with Jesus.

    Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
    It does not read; "... Christ, Who IN THE PRESENCE of the Eternal Spirit, offered Himself ... ." It is "... Christ Who THROUGH the Eternal Spirit, offered Himself ... ."
    1. "CHRIST" refers to His OFFICE, not His human person". That is, what He was anointed and appointed for.
    2. "Offered HIMSELF" refers to our Lord Jesus in His DEITY. It refers to John 10:18. "No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father."
    3. "THROUGH" means what VEHICLE he used. Why must He use the "ETERNAL Spirit" as a vehicle? So that His death has ETERNAL VALUE. If it has TEMPORAL VALUE then He only died for those around Him. But if He wants to (i) deal with all sins ever committed then His sacrifice must be ETERNAL, (ii) say that He was "slain FROM the foundation of the world" (Rev.13:8), (iii) that He "became the author of an ETERNAL SALVATION" for us (Heb.5:9) - one that has permanent qualities, (iv) "obtain an eternal redemption for us" (Heb.9:12) - one that cannot be reversed, (v) "obtain ... eternal glory" by this salvation (2nd Tim.2:10; 1st Pet.5.10)

    We must be true to the word and not add our own meanings.

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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    The first statement is not always true. Therefore, your second statement does not necessarily follow.

    Jesus is God. Jesus, as God, lived among sinners. Jesus, as God, became sin [or a sin offering]. Though there is a sense in which God is separated from sinners.

    Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
    Jesus is the name of a Man, son of a woman (Matt.1:21). He was God incarnate too by being the Son of God (Matt.1:18). But, as you have confirmed "separate from sinners". His FLESH was the Veil (Heb.10:20). That is, His humanity cam into contact with sinners but His deity was shielded from them, just as His humanity allowed men not be slain in the presence of the Almighty. That which came into contact with the profane was NOT his deity.

    And you do err saying that "Jesus as God became a Sin (or sin offering)". Jesus the MAN became all the offerings to appease God's perfect justice. God does not die, and God does not die for men. Only a MAN can do that. Romans 5:15; "But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one (man) many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many."

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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    God "forsook" Jesus by not helping Him

    Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

    God did not look away from Jesus or hide His face from Jesus. God's ears were open, but He did not prevent Jesus' death.

    Psalm 22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

    God the Father was with Jesus.

    John 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

    The Holy Spirit was with Jesus.

    Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
    This is the answer I like best. Forsaking someone God is leaving him to his fate. It doesn't require a complete and total separation. Being abandoned to his fate of death Christ endure the sentence upon mankind for choosing to sin. He thus suffered our punishment for us so that afterwards we may participate in his free gift of righteousness.

    I also agree with the idea of Jesus' emotional expression. He was enduring some of the tribulation the Psalmist and other godly men had experienced. He was identifying with human suffering, and truly suffering it, expressing it clearly.

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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    This is the answer I like best. Forsaking someone God is leaving him to his fate. It doesn't require a complete and total separation. Being abandoned to his fate of death Christ endure the sentence upon mankind for choosing to sin. He thus suffered our punishment for us so that afterwards we may participate in his free gift of righteousness.

    I also agree with the idea of Jesus' emotional expression. He was enduring some of the tribulation the Psalmist and other godly men had experienced. He was identifying with human suffering, and truly suffering it, expressing it clearly.
    Yeah, if separation is an issue that had to be dealt with, didn't Jesus have to experience it too? You hear all the time how man is separated from God, but if you go back to the beginning you'll find he never has been completely separated.

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    Re: When God turned away from His Son, and forsook Jesus in His darkest hour

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    I lean toward the Father forsaking him but....Why do people say this? Looks at us all 24/7, Satan and friends at the throne etc....why do people say this?


    Read it again.....we esteemed, it does not say he was stricken, smitten of God, they considered him stricken, smitten of God.
    Please forgive me. I could not make sense of your first statement.

    As to your second, I grant that you could base your argument on what the meaning of the word "counted" (Him stricken of God). But should we not construe it as true when verse 6 confirms it? "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." Also, it was not the only proof. I also supported my argument from Matthew 10:28 that the just deserts of sin is at God's hand? And in an earlier posting I showed that darkness is sure sign of God's judgement since He only has power to make the noonday pitch dark.

    I realize that you "lean" toward the truth, but I think it is reasonable to accept it as fact that, "... the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, ... ." (Romans 1:18)

    There is, of course, another approach. To show scriptures of whose wrath our Lord Jesus fell under, why the presence of the Father was impotent to stop it, and why the Father did not exact revenge for all the offenses against Himself. After all, did He not say; "vengeance is MINE. I will repay"?

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