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Thread: Baptism must be done as an adult - "as an appeal to God for a good conscience,"

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    Baptism must be done as an adult - "as an appeal to God for a good conscience,"

    Here's an applicable passage that shows baptism must be done as an adult, as of the age of accountability or after.

    1 Peter 3:21-22 English Standard Version (ESV)

    21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

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    Re: Baptism must be done as an adult - "as an appeal to God for a good conscience,"

    Quote Originally Posted by Alert View Post
    Here's an applicable passage that shows baptism must be done as an adult, as of the age of accountability or after.

    1 Peter 3:21-22 English Standard Version (ESV)

    21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.
    That is of course if baptism (water baptism that is) is applicable at all for Gentiles. Paul the Apostle of the Gentiles says this about water baptism: 1 Cor. 1:14 « I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius » and in v. 17 « For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect », the Letter of Peter is directed at Jews « Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers in diaspora (thus Jews) throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia ».

    Besides all the above it is not baptism that saves but faith even for the Jews « He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be condemned », this verse clearly says not being baptized wont condemn, not believing does.

    Aristarkos

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    Re: Baptism must be done as an adult - "as an appeal to God for a good conscience,"

    Quote Originally Posted by Alert View Post
    Here's an applicable passage that shows baptism must be done as an adult, as of the age of accountability or after.

    1 Peter 3:21-22 English Standard Version (ESV)

    21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.
    Correct. The sequence is;
    1. Believe
    2. Be water Immersed
    3. Receive the Holy Spirit for ministry.

    In Acts 2:22-40, Peter lays forth the issue of Water Baptism. He is speaking to "Ye men of Israel, ... ." (v.22). What follows was the "MEN" of Israel's rejection of their Messiah and His murder, resurrection and settling at the right hand of God on high. So, while the call to GENTILES is "Believe" in Jesus because they had never seen Him nor had Him in their midst, the call to ISRAEL is "Repent". They had Jesus in their midst and chose a certain path - a path of unbelief. This path must be reversed. That is the meaning of "repent" - a turn through 180° , a reversal of the present direct. But in BOTH "repent" for Israel and "believe" for the Gentile is FAITH. And FAITH causes the mechanisms of salvation.

    But we are SAVED for a PURPOSE. This purpose is that we become men and women who fulfill God's purpose of (i) being in Christ's image and likeness, (ii) becoming a Bride "meet" for Christ, (iii) subduing and ruling the earth sea and sky, and (iv) "fencing about" and "bringing to order" a Garden of Fellowship where God can meet with man without unholy things around. So FAITH is the path to salvation from our sins, it is the path the eternal life ad it is the path we must follow in our daily life. But this faith is the beginning of DUTY. If you look at the four DUTIES that God made man for, you can immediately see that the first two, being in Christ's image and likeness and being a Bride up to the standard of Jesus require the life and nature of Christ. But the second two, subduing and ruling the earth, sea and sky, and building a haven for God to meet with man, in our case the Church, NEED POWER. To subdue Satan, the fallen angels, the demons and violent men NEEDS POWER. And to build the Church NEEDS POWER. So while our FAITH gives us Eternal Life, the Divine Nature and freedom from the consequences of our sins, we need to be "furnished" or "imbued" by the Holy Spirit for DUTY. So what happened on Pentecost was what our Lord commanded in both Luke 24:49 and Acts 1:8. The disciples received the Holy Spirit FOR POWER.

    But anybody who wants to enter into the matter of subduing and ruling the earth can only go through ONE CHANNEL - that is, through the Promise to Abraham. For Israel, the subduing and ruling of Canaan was only had by the Covenant of Promise with Abraham. And man's part of this Covenant was circumcision (Gen.17:10-14). So for gaining the Land of Canaan, a man must cut of a piece of flesh at the seat of human pleasure. But when Abraham refused earthly things THREE TIMES, God extended the Covenant from Canaan to "THE WHOLE WORLD" (Rom.4:13). That is, circumcision is good enough for Kingdom of Israel in Canaan, but what is good enough for the Kingdom that will fill the whole earth (Dan.2:35-45)? What must be cut off to inherit the EARTH? 1st Corinthians 15:50 answers; "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." And the next verse says that we Christians will be "changed". So for the Kingdom of the whole earth, or, as it is known, "the Kingdom of God" or the "the Kingdom of Heaven", we need not only to have the foreskin cut off, BUT THE WHOLE FLESH! So our Lord Jesus goes to the cross and is "cut off" in death.

    But what did our Lord Jesus call this "cutting off of the whole flesh"?. In Matthew 20:21-23 some disciples were disputing who would have prominence in this Kingdom. So our Lord Jesus says, "hey you who would have a place in the Kingdom, do you know the price? The price is that your whole flesh will be terminated!" And what did Jesus call it in verse 22? "But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?" That is, are you prepared to be immersed in the cutting off of the whole flesh? The disciples say they are, and so our Lord Jesus continues in verse 23, "And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: ... ." That is, the body must see death to be fit for a man to enter the coming Kingdom of God. He who wants to subdue and rule the earth must be wholly cut off.

    But this presents a problem. If Christians are to be cut off in order to inherit the earth God will be unable to (i) build the Church seeing as the Church is built with our BODIES (1st Cor.6:15), and (ii) will have no testimony on earth as salt and light (Matt.5:13-16). How can God cut us wholly off and still have His Church and His testimony? The answer is that the circumcision given to Abraham was a "SIGN" (Rom.4:11). Circumcision is a "SIGN" that you have entered Covenant with God FOR THE LAND. So also is Baptism. It is a SIGN that you have been FULLY CUT OFF for the Kingdom of the Earth when Christ sets it up after His return. It depicts and shows that you have acknowledged that flesh and blood cannot inherit this Kingdom, and that you count yourself as having been WHOLLY CUT OFF for the inheriting of the coming Kingdom. Baptism must be AFTER you have believed, and must be FULL IMMERSION. No part of the body must be left untouched by the death-waters.

    So, returning to Acts Chapter 2, in verse 38, ".. Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Baptism MUST take place to SHOW, or as a "SIGN" that you enter the Covenant for the earth, AND ONLY THEN will you receive the Holy Spirit FOR POWER. Those who refuse Baptism after believing in Jesus, REFUSE THE COVENANT FOR THE EARTH. And having refused the Covenant for the earth, there is no reason for given them POWER to subdue, rule and build the Church. Just as Genesis 17:14 says; "And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant", so also the man or woman who has become a son of God by FAITH, who refuses FULL IMMERSION as a SIGN that they have cut off the whole flesh, BREAKS the Covenant for the earth. And not only do they break the Covenant for inheriting the earth when Christ comes, but they will also NOT BE GIVEN the Holy Spirit for POWER. Verse 38 is emphatic. You ONLY receive the Holy Spirit for POWER if you are IMMERSED. Otherwise, they have no part in BUILDING the Church and no part in preparing the Kingdom. They are DISOBEDIENT REBELS!

    Baptism does NOT put away one's sins. Baptism does NOT cause rebirth. Baptism does NOT impart eternal life. Baptism does NOT save you from the Lake of Fire. Baptism - FULL IMMERSION IN WATER - must come AFTER FAITH. Baptism is a "SIGN" that you enter Covenant with God about inheriting the earth for subduing it and ruling it. And because this work is supernatural you need POWER. So the Holy Spirit for POWER is given to those who are OBEDIENT and who make COVENANT for the earth. Baptism replaces circumcision. In Colossians 2:10-12 the change is seen.

    10 "And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
    11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
    12 Buried with him in baptism
    , wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."


    Verse 10. "You are complete in Him" shows that salvation, eternal life and Christ's Life and nature is ours by being joined by FAITH
    Verse 10. "principality and power" turns the reader to the REASON that we have been made complete in Him - the Kingdom
    Verse 11. Circumcision by hands is that of Israel's. It is enough for Canaan, but not enough to take on "principalities and powers"
    Verse 11. The Body of sins is that which makes us unfit for the Kingdom. So it must be cut off - circumcised
    Verse 11. The only way is to go through what Christ went through - DEATH
    Verse 12. But in order to survive for ministry is not real death. That will come later. It is now a "SIGN" - Baptism - FULL IMMERSION IN WATER signifying DEATH. God never patches up old and failed things. He makes things NEW. So for the Kingdom we get a new body and the old one must die. But, for the Covenant for the earth, we, like Israel had a Covenant for Canaan, must SIGNIFY that we agree that the flesh of now has no place in this coming Kingdom. We cause ourselves to be IMMERSED.

    The order then is
    1. FIRST BELIEVE (and/or repent). This brings, by the Holy Spirit, salvation, sonship to God and the divine nature
    2. THEN BE IMMERSED IN WATER AS A SIGN of joining in Covenant for the earth
    3. THEN you will receive the Holy Spirit FOR POWER to build the Church and be a testimony on earth.

    Those who refuse Baptism refuse the Covenant and forfeit the Holy Spirit for power. They are rebels. They have shown by their disobedience that they will be unfit to rule the earth. They have despised their birthright and inheritance like Esau did.

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    Re: Baptism must be done as an adult - "as an appeal to God for a good conscience,"

    Quote Originally Posted by Alert View Post
    Here's an applicable passage that shows baptism must be done as an adult, as of the age of accountability or after.

    1 Peter 3:21-22 English Standard Version (ESV)

    21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.
    Even if I put on my Baptist shoes, I’m not sure how you see this text requiring adult baptism. This was never a passage I appealed to when I held a Baptist view on the issue.

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    Re: Baptism must be done as an adult - "as an appeal to God for a good conscience,"

    Formulas. Formulas........ .

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    Re: Baptism must be done as an adult - "as an appeal to God for a good conscience,"

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    That is of course if baptism (water baptism that is) is applicable at all for Gentiles. Paul the Apostle of the Gentiles says this about water baptism: 1 Cor. 1:14 « I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius » and in v. 17 « For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect », the Letter of Peter is directed at Jews « Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers in diaspora (thus Jews) throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia ».

    Besides all the above it is not baptism that saves but faith even for the Jews « He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be condemned », this verse clearly says not being baptized wont condemn, not believing does.

    Aristarkos
    I quite agree. "Baptism saves you" is a personification of Baptism as an act that *depicts* salvation on the inside. It is an internal cleansing--clearly not the external act of washing with water.

    Since baptism is not integral to salvation we have to ask, "Why did Jesus command his apostles to perform it? Personally, I think it is an initiation ceremony designed to produce public conversion for new converts.

    The early Christians were Jews converting from Judaism. Later Christians were Gentiles converting from paganism. Baptism was an historically-practiced expression of conversion--not a rite that had any significance with respect to *getting saved.*

    How important it is today depends on how legalistic you are about it in part, and how practical you view it in another sense. Legally, it is not required for salvation. Practically, we must *somehow* exercise a public confession that we have converted from paganism to Christian living.

    Babies are baptized not as a true biblical baptism, but more, as a dedication ceremony within Christian homes. It isn't a conversion, but rather, the parents promising to raise their children in their own Christianity. It may be called a "baptism" only because the child is entering into a Christian lifestyle by virtue of their being chosen to be raised up in it.

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    Re: Baptism must be done as an adult - "as an appeal to God for a good conscience,"

    In regard to infant baptism, I think you have to look at each denomination. I think few see it as thebequivalent of a baby dedication you might see in a credo baptist church. But also, most don’t see it as remiasionnif sins either.

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    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

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    Re: Baptism must be done as an adult - "as an appeal to God for a good conscience,"

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    In regard to infant baptism, I think you have to look at each denomination. I think few see it as thebequivalent of a baby dedication you might see in a credo baptist church. But also, most don’t see it as remiasionnif sins either.
    That's a valid point. I was raised a Lutheran, but there may have been elements of "baptismal regeneration" in the language, whether it was consistent with Luther's theology or not.

    Sometimes what a local church believes may be different from what the official position is, as well. Nominal Christians who simply attend church in a non-spiritual, perfunctory way, tend to believe they "get their Christianity" by participating in official Christian services. They recite creeds, sing hymns, confess sins, and participate in rituals, including baptism and Communion. And in doing so, they believe they "get saved." This is *not* the way to get saved, in my opinion--they just *believe* that it is.

    Luther's theology consistently called for active and demonstrable faith, with external activities being an expression of this faith. In my view the whole idea of "baptismal regeneration" is confusing, and not an acceptable way of expressing salvation for me!

    I cannot see an infant "regenerated" by the act of baptism in which there is no sense of repentance? For this reason, I personally accept such ceremonies as expressions *by the parents* of their intention to raise the child in Christianity. The infant certainly is *not* regenerated by this act of "baptism!" Dedicating their children to a Christian lifestyle is the *right thing* for Christians parents to do. And a public ceremony can be perfectly well justified on this basis alone.

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    Re: Baptism must be done as an adult - "as an appeal to God for a good conscience,"

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I quite agree. "Baptism saves you" is a personification of Baptism as an act that *depicts* salvation on the inside. It is an internal cleansing--clearly not the external act of washing with water.

    Since baptism is not integral to salvation we have to ask, "Why did Jesus command his apostles to perform it? Personally, I think it is an initiation ceremony designed to produce public conversion for new converts.

    The early Christians were Jews converting from Judaism. Later Christians were Gentiles converting from paganism. Baptism was an historically-practiced expression of conversion--not a rite that had any significance with respect to *getting saved.*

    How important it is today depends on how legalistic you are about it in part, and how practical you view it in another sense. Legally, it is not required for salvation. Practically, we must *somehow* exercise a public confession that we have converted from paganism to Christian living.

    Babies are baptized not as a true biblical baptism, but more, as a dedication ceremony within Christian homes. It isn't a conversion, but rather, the parents promising to raise their children in their own Christianity. It may be called a "baptism" only because the child is entering into a Christian lifestyle by virtue of their being chosen to be raised up in it.
    Good thoughts. Here's what I wrote a while back.....

    https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...-and-mysticism

    "Not correct. See Cyprian’s Epistle “LVIII 316 To Fidus, on the Baptism of Infants” for an example.

    The “idea” infants needed to be baptized, in part, was because they believed circumcision, the OT shadow of the spiritual baptism, told them to do it. Ritual was a major part of religion at the time. Did the Apostles agree this meant sins remitted and salvation for infants? John the Baptist, Jesus, and the Apostles didn't mention infant baptism, and as far as we know did not practice it. The Apostles fought and spoke against philosophies, Gnosticism, and ‘their rival mystery religions’ of the day in their epistles and said when they departed wolves would bring damnable heresies, not sparing the flock, speaking perverse things, drawing away disciples and overthrowing the faith of some.

    I’m not going to write an essay on Church History, because it speaks for itself on this subject if you take the time to learn it. Christianity didn’t corner the market on baptism or mystery religions. Other religions much older than Christianity baptized and because of similarities Christianity was considered another mystery religion. The world of the early Church was one of paganism, ritual, and the need to 'do something' and contribute to their religion, and religious ‘competition’. The second century Church was different than the first, and the third different than the second, and so on, all getting further away from Scripture because different religions and cultures influence each other when they mingle. Many don’t attempt to understand what this was like, and unfortunately interpret scripture without the historical and cultural lens. That converted believers baptized their infants doesn’t assume Augustinian/Reformed/Calvinist original sin/sin nature, but rather reconciliation to the Creator, law, and ritual. Did some, or even many, baptize their infants because of an Augustinian/Reformed/Calvinist original sin/sin nature view of sorts? Since they were not free of bad influence, what do you think? Does this mean they were right on either account? Of course not. Some did it because of “law” and ritual, or because they believed they had the authority to retain and remit sins, even for an infant that could not believe or not believe for themselves. Are these correct views? No they’re not.

    Since there’s no Scriptural or Apostolic reason they came to that conclusion (baptize infants) and since we know the history and culture, what should we conclude?"

    Baptism at the time is how one showed where they stood. If you weren't willing to take up your cross you weren't worthy. Not the case anymore in most of the world. Baptism isn't usually public and certainly not placing a target on your back for persecution, possible unto death. That is what Peter meant. Not the ceremonies behind the four walls of our nice cozy church buildings in countries void of persecution for being baptized in public and choosing Jesus over another religion.

  10. #10

    Re: Baptism must be done as an adult - "as an appeal to God for a good conscience,"

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    Even if I put on my Baptist shoes, I’m not sure how you see this text requiring adult baptism. This was never a passage I appealed to when I held a Baptist view on the issue.
    Of the various verses on baptism that I considered, not one gave the slightest indication for baptism as an infant or being done before the age of accountability. The verse that I quoted in the original post includes this phrase, "as an appeal to God for a good conscience,". That obviously indicates the one being baptised is old enough to appeal to God for a good conscience. That would be someone who God considers an adult, of the age of accountability, accountable for one's own sins.

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    Re: Baptism must be done as an adult - "as an appeal to God for a good conscience,"

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    Even if I put on my Baptist shoes, I’m not sure how you see this text requiring adult baptism. This was never a passage I appealed to when I held a Baptist view on the issue.
    I'm not sure He is saying we "must" be baptised. Just that baptism is for adults and not children.

    At least that's how I read it. Perhaps the OP will clarify.
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    Re: Baptism must be done as an adult - "as an appeal to God for a good conscience,"

    Quote Originally Posted by Alert View Post
    Of the various verses on baptism that I considered, not one gave the slightest indication for baptism as an infant or being done before the age of accountability. The verse that I quoted in the original post includes this phrase, "as an appeal to God for a good conscience,". That obviously indicates the one being baptised is old enough to appeal to God for a good conscience. That would be someone who God considers an adult, of the age of accountability, accountable for one's own sins.
    Don't know if it's been asked... how does and what scriptures would one utilize to define what "age of accountability" means?
    Slug1--out

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    Re: Baptism must be done as an adult - "as an appeal to God for a good conscience,"

    Quote Originally Posted by Alert View Post
    Of the various verses on baptism that I considered, not one gave the slightest indication for baptism as an infant or being done before the age of accountability. The verse that I quoted in the original post includes this phrase, "as an appeal to God for a good conscience,". That obviously indicates the one being baptised is old enough to appeal to God for a good conscience. That would be someone who God considers an adult, of the age of accountability, accountable for one's own sins.
    This not being able to edit is tough...

    Let me elaborate, if one does not "appeal to God for a good conscience" until say, age 43... were they not accountable for sin before that age? So my question remains:

    How does and what scriptures would one utilize to define what "age of accountability" means?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  14. #14

    Re: Baptism must be done as an adult - "as an appeal to God for a good conscience,"

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Don't know if it's been asked... how does and what scriptures would one utilize to define what "age of accountability" means?
    One becomes accoutable for their sins, when God no longer considers them to be a child, and now considers them to be an adult. So that would be around puberty, when becomes able to have children. I base this on my personal experience. But also I'm sure others have determined this as well. For example, I went through catechism class at about the same age, and so have many others.

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    Re: Baptism must be done as an adult - "as an appeal to God for a good conscience,"

    The debate of when a person should be Baptized is easily answered. It is attached to the moment one believes in Jesus. That is, the moment in a person's life when they comprehend (i) that Jesus is the Son of God, (ii) that Jesus died for their sins, and (iii) that Jesus rose from the dead as proof that sins were put away. Now, in matters of faith, our Lord said that we should be like children (Matthew 19:14, Mark 10:14, Luke 18:16 and Ephesians 5:1). If a ten-year-old boy is raised in a given Christian family, and believes that Jesus is who He is and did what He did, he is eligible to be Baptized. And if a forty-year-old DD in theology does not believe (as many don't), he is not eligible to be Baptized.

    Baptism in the next step after BELIEVING - irrespective of age. Paul, a killer of Christians and enemy of Christ is converted. The command then was in Acts 22:16.

    "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

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