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Thread: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

  1. #31
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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Often it is mentioned that God has "foreknown" a prophet while he is still in the womb. But that is predictive. It doesn't say when the prophet actually becomes a human soul.

    I think probably the closest thing to it for me is when I read that John the Baptist leaped in the womb when Elizabeth drew near Mary, who was pregnant with Jesus. The story always has me jumping!

    Bottom line is: I don't know. It frightens me to think that when my 1st "potential child" came out a miscarriage, it could now be a soul in heaven. But I just don't know!
    i dont know either. but i think the breath is significant. the breath of the Most High is life giving, our own breath has to be continual to sustain life. i think its more complex than the physical matter given by the parents. IMO the process begins at conception and is complete at birth.

  2. #32
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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by jaybird View Post
    Genesis 2 7
    then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

    when do we start breathing?

    what scripture would you use to support the soul is given at conception?
    Adam and Eve are the only people on earth that were never "conceived" nor "grew in a womb" nor were they "born". It's not a valid passage to use for the unborn since these two were never in that state. They are very unique when it comes to life. No one else ever has been or ever will be like them.

    What do you do with John the Baptist who lept for joy in his mother's womb?
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  3. #33
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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    One thing we all have to be careful with is what I call natural human compassion. It can be hard to tell the difference between that and Godly compassion. Both can be applied to the same thing, but with human compassion, we often overlook the entire picture but Godly compassion never will.

    The Amalekite told David that Saul was wounded, and then he told David that he killed him. He thought David would see it as a mercy to "put Saul out of his misery" and to "grant David the kingdom". But David saw it as God would... that the Amalekite had taken the life of God's anointed and had the man put to death.

    We all need to have compassion for mothers, as we would for those in bondage to lust, or violence, etc. But we also all need to have compassion for the innocent child who has to die for that mother. And of course, there are those cases where through no fault of their own, the mother becomes pregnant in a very bad way. How could our hearts NOT go out to her. Yet, we must also consider the "fruit of her womb" as well for that child did not ask for those circumstances either. The perpetrater deserves judgment and justice, but the innocents do not.

    When it comes to judgment, it also is worth considering that often, one must show judgment to one person in order to grant mercy to another. For God to deliver Israel from her enemies, required for Him to bring judgment upon the enemies. When both parties are innocent, how can we bring judgment on one or the other? Don't both deserve our great compassion?
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Edit to add: The above posts is concerning rape and incest.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by jaybird View Post
    Genesis 2 7
    then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

    when do we start breathing?

    what scripture would you use to support the soul is given at conception?
    Adam and Eve were never conceived. Scripture to support when a soul is linked to a person, read Psalms, read the Book's of the prophets, etc.
    Slug1--out

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  6. #36
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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by jaybird View Post
    Genesis 2 7
    then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

    when do we start breathing?

    what scripture would you use to support the soul is given at conception?
    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Adam and Eve were never conceived. Scripture to support when a soul is linked to a person, read Psalms, read the Book's of the prophets, etc.
    Jaybird, I will give this to you so that you may pray about this while you study. Adam and Eve were immortal once they were given life, they would have lived forever had they not sinned. The breath of life you are confused by is about God giving eternal life to man. After the fall, the "breath" only happens when a person is born-again. Jesus even symbolized this in the Gospel of John.

    This breath is spiritual in nature, the life it gives is also, spiritual in nature.

    Abortion deals with the fallen physical nature of man and a human life begins at conception because there would BE NO conception if God didn't have plans for the life. Cept satan continues to thwart God in every way he can. Long ago in the past, he deceived mankind into actually sacrificing babies after birth. Well, man has evolved in ways since then and for satan to deceive mankind into believing that babies need to be sacrificed, isn't as popular or easy to pull off by his effort. satan had to come up with a new manner in which to deceive mankind concerning life and well, we have people deceived that should they NOT want a baby, it's their right to kill the child. Now, even on the day of birth, if the baby has not "be born," the mother can kill the child and thinks, it's her right.

    Reality is... satan is still effectually causing man to grievously sin, willingly.

    Oh, the only "force" to battle and deal with him about this, is the Body of Christ but then that battle front is this: he overwhelms the Body with false doctrines, confusion, double-mindedness, etc.

    Reality is... the Body is debating abortion instead of standing in unity against murder of children.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  7. #37
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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Adam and Eve were never conceived. Scripture to support when a soul is linked to a person, read Psalms, read the Book's of the prophets, etc.
    they were never conceived however they were given a soul just the same as we are. the scripture says the soul was given at first breath. do you have a scripture (chapter / verse) rather than the vague reference to Psalms and the Prophets? i dont thnk there is a scripture anywhere that states the soul giving act was changed from first breath to conception, or any other time.

    Jaybird, I will give this to you so that you may pray about this while you study. Adam and Eve were immortal once they were given life, they would have lived forever had they not sinned. The breath of life you are confused by is about God giving eternal life to man. After the fall, the "breath" only happens when a person is born-again. Jesus even symbolized this in the Gospel of John.

    This breath is spiritual in nature, the life it gives is also, spiritual in nature.
    i would hope the breath is spiritual in nature, if not we would be a soulless body and thats sounds horrible.
    Abortion deals with the fallen physical nature of man and a human life begins at conception because there would BE NO conception if God didn't have plans for the life. Cept satan continues to thwart God in every way he can. Long ago in the past, he deceived mankind into actually sacrificing babies after birth. Well, man has evolved in ways since then and for satan to deceive mankind into believing that babies need to be sacrificed, isn't as popular or easy to pull off by his effort. satan had to come up with a new manner in which to deceive mankind concerning life and well, we have people deceived that should they NOT want a baby, it's their right to kill the child. Now, even on the day of birth, if the baby has not "be born," the mother can kill the child and thinks, it's her right.

    Reality is... satan is still effectually causing man to grievously sin, willingly.

    Oh, the only "force" to battle and deal with him about this, is the Body of Christ but then that battle front is this: he overwhelms the Body with false doctrines, confusion, double-mindedness, etc.

    Reality is... the Body is debating abortion instead of standing in unity against murder of children.
    i agree the creating process begins at conception, but the life IMO is not complete until the body is given a soul, and the soul is given at first breath. this is also how it was always understood until the last few hundred years.
    i already gave you one scripture supporting this argument, here is another.

    Genesis 5:6
    And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:

    this is the generations after Adam. notice when the generation timeline always begins, it starts at "yalad" this means birth, not conception.

    Genesis 4
    1Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, “I have gotten a man with the help of the Lord.”

    Eve does not say she got a man after she became pregnant and before she gave birth, she says this after the birth.

    this is why we have birthdays and not conception days.
    i dont think abortion is right, its not something i would ever approve of. my biggest issue with it is the fact man is interfering with the Lords creating process.

  8. #38
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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Adam and Eve are the only people on earth that were never "conceived" nor "grew in a womb" nor were they "born". It's not a valid passage to use for the unborn since these two were never in that state. They are very unique when it comes to life. No one else ever has been or ever will be like them.
    but we are not talking about conception and growth, we are talking about when the soul is given. Adam may have not been in a womb but he was still formed by the Father, just the same as we are formed by the Father in the womb.


    What do you do with John the Baptist who lept for joy in his mother's womb?
    i would say he lept for joy in the womb. im not understanding what it has to do with when a soul enters a body or when the creation process is complete.

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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by jaybird View Post
    but we are not talking about conception and growth, we are talking about when the soul is given. Adam may have not been in a womb but he was still formed by the Father, just the same as we are formed by the Father in the womb.




    i would say he lept for joy in the womb. im not understanding what it has to do with when a soul enters a body or when the creation process is complete.
    Only a conscious being can have emotions Jay. Yes or no ? The burden is on you to prove that someone who is a conscious being cannot have a soul. Not vice-versa.

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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Only a conscious being can have emotions Jay. Yes or no ? The burden is on you to prove that someone who is a conscious being cannot have a soul. Not vice-versa.
    im basing my thoughts on the bible and not letting my thoughts be swayed by personal or political opinions. the bible says the soul is received at first breath, when do we start breathing? and the generations beginning at birth and not conception. the common sense fact that we have birthdays and not conception days.

    the John the baptist passage is interesting but its hardly enough there to establish the soul giving moment had been changed from what we read in Genesis. and if this had been changed from first breath to something different the bible surely would explain why it was changed and there is no such scripture.

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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by jaybird View Post
    they were never conceived however they were given a soul just the same as we are. the scripture says the soul was given at first breath. do you have a scripture (chapter / verse) rather than the vague reference to Psalms and the Prophets? i dont thnk there is a scripture anywhere that states the soul giving act was changed from first breath to conception, or any other time.



    i would hope the breath is spiritual in nature, if not we would be a soulless body and thats sounds horrible.


    i agree the creating process begins at conception, but the life IMO is not complete until the body is given a soul, and the soul is given at first breath. this is also how it was always understood until the last few hundred years.
    i already gave you one scripture supporting this argument, here is another.

    Genesis 5:6
    And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:

    this is the generations after Adam. notice when the generation timeline always begins, it starts at "yalad" this means birth, not conception.

    Genesis 4
    1Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, “I have gotten a man with the help of the Lord.”

    Eve does not say she got a man after she became pregnant and before she gave birth, she says this after the birth.

    this is why we have birthdays and not conception days.
    i dont think abortion is right, its not something i would ever approve of. my biggest issue with it is the fact man is interfering with the Lords creating process.
    Without the breath, we'd be souless? What good is a soul that will not render us the blessing of being with God for eternity? Coming into existence or conception is when the body begins and the Bible details that a person has three parts, flesh, soul and spirit. The Bible does not detail anything about receiving each in stages. Not about at conception, first only the flesh and in time during gestation, the soul or spirit. The "breath" is about eternal life with God, as both Adam/Eve "had" until they sinned. Again, this is symbolized by Jesus when He "breathed" on the Apostles in the Gospel of John. The breath is nothing about receiving a soul.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

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  12. #42
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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Without the breath, we'd be souless? What good is a soul that will not render us the blessing of being with God for eternity? Coming into existence or conception is when the body begins and the Bible details that a person has three parts, flesh, soul and spirit. The Bible does not detail anything about receiving each in stages. Not about at conception, first only the flesh and in time during gestation, the soul or spirit. The "breath" is about eternal life with God, as both Adam/Eve "had" until they sinned. Again, this is symbolized by Jesus when He "breathed" on the Apostles in the Gospel of John. The breath is nothing about receiving a soul.
    i couldnt disagree more. the breath is when we receive our soul and the breath is everything spiritual, remove that and all you have left is physical matter, what the bible calls dust. we provide the dust, He provides the spirit. this is how it has always been understood and it has always been based on this passage, and there is no other passage that says this process changed. it makes no sense to think the life creating process is complete before you are born and before you are breathing .
    Ecclesiastes 12:7
    and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

    here is the breath again going back to the Father who gave it, its not talking about Adam this time.

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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    What do we do the billions of miscarriages that have occurred over the history of humanity? I simply do not know when the moment of 'ensoulment' occurs. I've heard some argue for implantation as the cut-off.

    I would however argue that intentional abortion is the destruction of potential human life (sorry if that sounds callous).
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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by teddyv View Post
    What do we do the billions of miscarriages that have occurred over the history of humanity? I simply do not know when the moment of 'ensoulment' occurs. I've heard some argue for implantation as the cut-off.

    I would however argue that intentional abortion is the destruction of potential human life (sorry if that sounds callous).
    what do you mean about implantation cut off?

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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by jaybird View Post
    i couldnt disagree more. the breath is when we receive our soul and the breath is everything spiritual, remove that and all you have left is physical matter, what the bible calls dust. we provide the dust, He provides the spirit. this is how it has always been understood and it has always been based on this passage, and there is no other passage that says this process changed. it makes no sense to think the life creating process is complete before you are born and before you are breathing .
    Ecclesiastes 12:7
    and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

    here is the breath again going back to the Father who gave it, its not talking about Adam this time.
    OK, lets break this down one verse at a time.

    Now bear in mind, you are saying God breaths into a person and this gives them a soul or life, correct? You use Genesis 2:7 as your supporting verse per post #29, correct?

    My one question, based on your understanding of that verse... is a baby NOT living until God's breath, gives them a soul?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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