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Thread: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

  1. #46
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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by jaybird View Post
    what do you mean about implantation cut off?
    Sorry, I meant that to mean, at implantation then it should be considered a human life. Using cut-off was a poor word choice there.
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  2. #47
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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    OK, lets break this down one verse at a time.

    Now bear in mind, you are saying God breaths into a person and this gives them a soul or life, correct? You use Genesis 2:7 as your supporting verse per post #29, correct?

    My one question, based on your understanding of that verse... is a baby NOT living until God's breath, gives them a soul?
    is a baby, in the womb, not on life support thats provided by the mother? is the baby living on its own? the first breath IMO is the completion of the formation.

  3. #48
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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by teddyv View Post
    Sorry, I meant that to mean, at implantation then it should be considered a human life. Using cut-off was a poor word choice there.
    when a women is implanted with an egg by a doctor? or you talking about the copulation?

  4. #49
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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by jaybird View Post
    is a baby, in the womb, not on life support thats provided by the mother? is the baby living on its own? the first breath IMO is the completion of the formation.
    Lets break down the scripture and what you said about the scripture and "then" we can decide what it means.

    Your original question about "life":

    >i didnt know the bible said that. i thought it began when we received our soul at first breath.<
    I asked what verse would be used to support that the soul is received when the child takes it's first breath:

    >What scripture would you use to support that a soul is received at the first breath?<
    You posted this verse as support followed by what you asked:

    Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
    when do we start breathing?

    what scripture would you use to support the soul is given at conception?
    Remember, one step at a time. Your post above is an example of hopping in random directions, none of which are truly focused on taking a proper step in understanding the verse you utilized.

    Now, based on the scripture who is breathing a breath?
    Slug1--out

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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    This not being able to edit is getting painful

    The post above labeled "posted by jaybird" is the one I mean about jumping around.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  6. #51
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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Lets break down the scripture and what you said about the scripture and "then" we can decide what it means.

    Your original question about "life":



    I asked what verse would be used to support that the soul is received when the child takes it's first breath:



    You posted this verse as support followed by what you asked:

    Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.


    Remember, one step at a time. Your post above is an example of hopping in random directions, none of which are truly focused on taking a proper step in understanding the verse you utilized.

    Now, based on the scripture who is breathing a breath?
    there is no grasping at randomness, nothing is pulled out of thin air, this concept comes from the bible, the Gen passage, its not a crazy idea being as this is how it has always been interpreted. the idea did not change until recently. this is how people like Josephus understood it. you have also failed to provide any passage to support the soul entering the body at conception. there is none btw.
    life begins with breath, life ends with the last breath. you seem to want to take the breath out of the equation and i dont think its a good idea to do that.

    abortion is wrong im not no shame in saying that, but im not willing to go so far to say that an unborn non fully formed baby is the same as a 1yr old fully formed child or to change when we receive a soul. when we start adding to the bible to support a good idea, its never a good idea.

  7. #52
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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    I don't see in Genesis 2 where God breathed the breathe of life into Eve. It just said he formed her from Adam's rib - a bone. Deep inside bones are where blood cells are made. God said that the "life is in the blood". If she became a living soul by being formed from a body part of Adam, then why wouldn't a baby be a living soul by being formed from its parents who are living souls.

    We can't say that God breathed into Eve and made her a living soul because that would be adding to the Bible.

    And not to be nit-picky, but the Bible doesn't say that Adam "received" a soul, but "became a living soul". I think there is a difference.

    And.....I don't think the process by which God ensures that people have souls, nor the timing of it, is the relevant point....or our business.

    But, the Bible is clear that:

    • John the Baptist, as a fetus, was filled with the Holy Spirit. Gabriel said it would be that way and when John, the fetus, responded to Mary's voice via his mother's ears, SHE became filled with the Holy Spirit as a result, not vice versa.
    • David talks of being a fetus and says of God in Psalm 139 [which has already been mentioned], "Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them." God recognized the fetus that we all were at one time and numbers our days before we are born. And for some fetuses, those days are limited to the womb. And that's God's business.


    Just those two passages alone, and there's more, heavily imply to me that God is concerned with fetuses as much as babies who are born. And that the "living soul" is already in existence AS a fetus. How could John the Baptist be filled otherwise?
    ".....it's your nickel"

  8. #53
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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by jayne View Post
    I don't see in Genesis 2 where God breathed the breathe of life into Eve. It just said he formed her from Adam's rib - a bone. Deep inside bones are where blood cells are made. God said that the "life is in the blood". If she became a living soul by being formed from a body part of Adam, then why wouldn't a baby be a living soul by being formed from its parents who are living souls.

    We can't say that God breathed into Eve and made her a living soul because that would be adding to the Bible.

    And not to be nit-picky, but the Bible doesn't say that Adam "received" a soul, but "became a living soul". I think there is a difference.

    And.....I don't think the process by which God ensures that people have souls, nor the timing of it, is the relevant point....or our business.

    But, the Bible is clear that:

    • John the Baptist, as a fetus, was filled with the Holy Spirit. Gabriel said it would be that way and when John, the fetus, responded to Mary's voice via his mother's ears, SHE became filled with the Holy Spirit as a result, not vice versa.
    • David talks of being a fetus and says of God in Psalm 139 [which has already been mentioned], "Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them." God recognized the fetus that we all were at one time and numbers our days before we are born. And for some fetuses, those days are limited to the womb. And that's God's business.


    Just those two passages alone, and there's more, heavily imply to me that God is concerned with fetuses as much as babies who are born. And that the "living soul" is already in existence AS a fetus. How could John the Baptist be filled otherwise?
    I agree Jayne, plus there are scriptures showing God made things from the womb.

    This verse however makes me wonder if abortion is a part of God's judgment or something. What are your thoughts on this verse where abortion is concerned? Or do you take this to mean more like miscarriages?

    Hosea 9:16 Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.

  9. #54
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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Job 33:4
    4 The Spirit of God has made me,
    and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.


    a 2nd passage for the breath of life.

  10. #55
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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by jaybird View Post
    i would say he lept for joy in the womb. im not understanding what it has to do with when a soul enters a body or when the creation process is complete.
    He did! Meaning "he" was a boy child. And he felt emotion. Joy. He existed as a baby. Scripture says "the baby lept for joy". The apostle John, filled with the Holy Spirit, wrote the "baby" lept in her womb. That is a human being.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by teddyv View Post
    What do we do the billions of miscarriages that have occurred over the history of humanity? I simply do not know when the moment of 'ensoulment' occurs. I've heard some argue for implantation as the cut-off.
    Miscarriages are death. Just like other deaths. What do we do with them? We mourn. If you don't know when "ensoulment" occurs then to be on the safe side, you should be pro-life. Why take the risk?

    I would however argue that intentional abortion is the destruction of potential human life (sorry if that sounds callous).
    We know from science that the fertilized egg is life. We also know it is a different life than it's mother. You can question if "it" has a soul. But there's no doubt that the DNA is from a different human.

    BTW, doesn't soul mean "life"?
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by jaybird View Post
    Job 33:4
    4 The Spirit of God has made me,
    and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.


    a 2nd passage for the breath of life.
    Gives... not gave. Elihu was saying that God's still breathing on him. This is a reference to the Holy Spirit IMO. Elihu was made. And the Holy Spirit gives him life. It doesn't say God's breath "gave" him life. It is presently giving him life just as the HOly Spirit does for us today. His words are life. His Spirit is life.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  13. #58
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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    He did! Meaning "he" was a boy child. And he felt emotion. Joy. He existed as a baby. Scripture says "the baby lept for joy". The apostle John, filled with the Holy Spirit, wrote the "baby" lept in her womb. That is a human being.
    just not a fully formed human being, he wasnt breathing on his own, he was still being sustained by his mother. he didnt have the breath of life yet.

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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by jaybird View Post
    just not a fully formed human being, he wasnt breathing on his own, he was still being sustained by his mother. he didnt have the breath of life yet.
    Infants are sustained by their mother. And the Holy Spirit called John the Baptist "baby". BTW, a baby is not a fully formed human being either. He has some growing to do. Finally, Jayne addressed it very well in her post above. Here's what she wrote"

    [quote]John the Baptist, as a fetus, was filled with the Holy Spirit. Gabriel said it would be that way and when John, the fetus, responded to Mary's voice via his mother's ears, SHE became filled with the Holy Spirit as a result, not vice versa.[quote]

    Gabriel considered John the Baptist as John the Baptist in his mother's womb. He considered him a human being and a prophet.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  15. #60

    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Abortion is a fascinating conversation about an abominable practice, especially when we realize that aborted children are used in drug testing, artificial flavor manufacturing, vaccines, Food supplements, and hallucinogenics.

    It is a conversation where people who don't believe the Bible use the Bible to convince those who do, that the child is not human, and science actually says we are a unique human life from the moment of conception.

    It's a discussion that confuses the penalty on a nation for sin as the sin. In times past the worst thing an invading army could do was to rip the unborn child from the womb. But here we do it to ourselves. Abortion is the penalty for the sin of rebellion that started in the 60's, when nationally we started tossing God out of our national discussions and declaring that we could determine right and wrong for ourselves. ("If it feels good, do it") When Jerusalem fell, they were eating their children.

    It's a conversation designed to normalize the idea that you can kill innocent people for the crimes of others, or kill them when they become inconvenient to society.

    I am sure God sees things differently that we do.

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