What God Thinks Of Abortion..

[jayne]

I agree Jayne, plus there are scriptures showing God made things from the womb.

This verse however makes me wonder if abortion is a part of God's judgment or something. What are your thoughts on this verse where abortion is concerned? Or do you take this to mean more like miscarriages?

Hosea 9:16 Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.

This verse you cite is definitely judgment, as you call it. I don't see it as abortion. It says to me that barrenness is coming for Ephraim and even for parents who do bring child into this world ["yea, though they bring forth"], God will not let them live or a least not into adulthood.

That sounds horrible. However, Hosea is writing at a time extremely close to when the Assyrians conquered Israel [the ten northern tribes]. Horrible times are coming. Ephraim is sometimes used as a name for Israel.

God is a God of wrath and mercy.

• His wrath is shown upon the adults who worshiped Baal and commit other atrocities by allowing them to be conquered by a fierce and cruel nation. His wrath is also see in his either not allowing children to be born or not allowing their "beloved fruit" to live into adulthood.
• God's mercy is shown by not allowing very many children to be born at this time and not allowing those to be born live until adulthood.

This isn't the first time that God has taken a baby or a child away via death to protect it from something dreadful. I taught in my community Bible Study a few weeks ago how the horrible king of Israel [the 10 tribes], Jeroboam lost a son that God took away.

A prophet tells Jeroboam's wife that her sick son will die. Jeroboam had sent her to ask about what would happen. He even sent gifts. The prophet told her harshly that Jeroboam entire clan would be destroyed eventually. But that when she went back home as soon as she crossed the threshold, her child would die.

That seems harsh to punish a child for great sins of his father, right? But in 1 Kings 14, the Bible states that the prophet told her that God was taking the child because that child was the ONLY one in Jeroboams household with whom God had found anything pleasing. It was a grievous loss to the wicked Jeroboam and his wife, but it was a victory for the child that God spared him the devastations and horror that were to come.

And then, of course, there is David's baby who dies. God punished David by taking his baby son. God spared that son, who would be known all his days as a bastard son, from shame.

[Slug1]

life begins with breath, life ends with the last breath. you seem to want to take the breath out of the equation and i dont think its a good idea to do that.

I deleted all but what should be focused on... the "breath" of Genesis 2:7. So, as you can understand, I am focusing in that breath, not seemingly attempting to take the breath out of the equation. What I will attempt to do is help you PLACE the breath into proper context with that verse you used to support that God places a soul into a person and they come to life only when this breath happens.

If you are willing to take "a" step in that direction... lets learn together.

[jayne]

Without the breath, we'd be souless? What good is a soul that will not render us the blessing of being with God for eternity? Coming into existence or conception is when the body begins and the Bible details that a person has three parts, flesh, soul and spirit. The Bible does not detail anything about receiving each in stages. Not about at conception, first only the flesh and in time during gestation, the soul or spirit. The "breath" is about eternal life with God, as both Adam/Eve "had" until they sinned. Again, this is symbolized by Jesus when He "breathed" on the Apostles in the Gospel of John. The breath is nothing about receiving a soul.

Yes, this. ^^^^^

The Bible is clear that God looks at our "unformed substance" with purpose and "knew us".

Besides, Genesis 2 does not say that Adam was given a soul or received a soul or was created without a soul. It's not that Adam was soulless in creation. He was not alive, yet. God did not breathe into Adam a soul, he breathed into him life.

Adam became a living soul. Just like Adam became a living flesh.

And Eve was not breathed in to, ergo, the baby's first breath outside the womb has nothing to do with being given a soul.

[jaybird]

Yes, this. ^^^^^

The Bible is clear that God looks at our "unformed substance" with purpose and "knew us".

Besides, Genesis 2 does not say that Adam was given a soul or received a soul or was created without a soul. It's not that Adam was soulless in creation. He was not alive, yet. God did not breathe into Adam a soul, he breathed into him life.

Adam became a living soul. Just like Adam became a living flesh.

And Eve was not breathed in to, ergo, the baby's first breath outside the womb has nothing to do with being given a soul.

so you believe our soul comes from the earth ?

[jaybird]

Infants are sustained by their mother. And the Holy Spirit called John the Baptist "baby". BTW, a baby is not a fully formed human being either. He has some growing to do. Finally, Jayne addressed it very well in her post above. Here's what she wrote"

of course they are sustained by the mother, thats becouse their formation is not complete. this is what i been saying all along.

[QUOTE]John the Baptist, as a fetus, was filled with the Holy Spirit. Gabriel said it would be that way and when John, the fetus, responded to Mary's voice via his mother's ears, SHE became filled with the Holy Spirit as a result, not vice versa.

Gabriel considered John the Baptist as John the Baptist in his mother's womb. He considered him a human being and a prophet.

how does the spirit of the Most High imply He was a completed form before he was born? it makes no sense.

[jaybird]

Exodus 21:22
“When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine.
But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life,

then you have the LXX

22 And if two men strive and smite a woman with child, and her child be born imperfectly formed, he shall be forced to pay a penalty: as the woman’s husband may lay upon him, he shall pay with a valuation. 23 But if it be perfectly formed, he shall give life for life,

the passages show there is a difference between the complete and incomplete form of a fetus.

Philo teaching on the passage:
And with respect to these matters the following law has beenenacted with great beauty and propriety: “If while two men arefighting one should strike a woman who is great with child, andher child should come from her before it is completely formed,he shall be muleted in a fine, according to what the husband ofthe woman shall impose on him, and he shall pay the finedeservedly. But if the child be fully formed, he shall pay lifefor life."{35). For it was not the same thing, to destroy a perfectand an imperfect work . . . .”

Josephus
“He that kicks a pregnant woman, if the woman miscarry,shall be fined by the judges for having, by the destruction ofthe fruit of her womb, diminished the population, and afurther sum shall be presented by him to the woman’shusband. If she die by the blow, he shall also die, the lawclaiming sacrifice of life for life.

Both had different views but both agreed the uncompleted fetus was not the same as a fully formed one.

[bluesky22]

Exodus 21:22
“When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine.
But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life,

then you have the LXX

22 And if two men strive and smite a woman with child, and her child be born imperfectly formed, he shall be forced to pay a penalty: as the woman’s husband may lay upon him, he shall pay with a valuation. 23 But if it be perfectly formed, he shall give life for life,

the passages show there is a difference between the complete and incomplete form of a fetus.

Philo teaching on the passage:
And with respect to these matters the following law has beenenacted with great beauty and propriety: “If while two men arefighting one should strike a woman who is great with child, andher child should come from her before it is completely formed,he shall be muleted in a fine, according to what the husband ofthe woman shall impose on him, and he shall pay the finedeservedly. But if the child be fully formed, he shall pay lifefor life."{35). For it was not the same thing, to destroy a perfectand an imperfect work . . . .”

Josephus
“He that kicks a pregnant woman, if the woman miscarry,shall be fined by the judges for having, by the destruction ofthe fruit of her womb, diminished the population, and afurther sum shall be presented by him to the woman’shusband. If she die by the blow, he shall also die, the lawclaiming sacrifice of life for life.

Both had different views but both agreed the uncompleted fetus was not the same as a fully formed one.

I don’t know how you see such (the red)

These verses merely give the men a break ( on the punishment scale ) if the fetus is not harmed, showing that indeed God sees the fetus as a full human and not some lesser form of person. The soul is there upon conception.

[Brother Mark]

of course they are sustained by the mother, thats becouse their formation is not complete. this is what i been saying all along.

Complete formation of a body does not mean one exists. Lots of people don't have a complete body but they are still human beings.

how does the spirit of the Most High imply He was a completed form before he was born? it makes no sense.

He doesn't imply his body was completed. He implies he was a human being before he was born. He actually doesn't imply it, He states it.

Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Consider for a moment, that you might be wrong. The passages you have given on "breath of life" are from one couple who were never born, never conceived, etc. And the passage in Job was about "having" God's breath not being breathed on once. Please consider, as Slug has pointed out, there is a difference between the body and the soul. Yet, we know the body is alive in the mother's womb. And if the body is alive, then doesn't the soul have to be present? Isn't death separation? When the body dies, the soul and spirit are separated from the body.

Here's the hebrew definition of soul:

OT:5315 nephesh (neh'-fesh); from OT:5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):

Literally, Adam became a breathing creature. He became a living being. Before that, he was not alive. But he was not born. Eve was not born either. But scripture doesn't say she was breathed into. She is a type of the church because she is the very first being that was life created from life. Just as we are created, spiritually, from Jesus life. Anyway, Adam's body came alive when God breathed into him. We know from science, and the scriptures, the baby's body is alive in the womb just as Adam's was alive after God breathed into him. Babies today are born, adam was not. We can't compare the two in this manner concerning "the breath of life".

And as Slug has pointed out, this is a spiritual meaning... they were also alive spiritually upon creation. But died and were separated from God when they sinned. Yet, the body lived on.

[kyCyd]

This verse you cite is definitely judgment, as you call it. I don't see it as abortion. It says to me that barrenness is coming for Ephraim and even for parents who do bring child into this world ["yea, though they bring forth"], God will not let them live or a least not into adulthood.

That sounds horrible. However, Hosea is writing at a time extremely close to when the Assyrians conquered Israel [the ten northern tribes]. Horrible times are coming. Ephraim is sometimes used as a name for Israel.

God is a God of wrath and mercy.

• His wrath is shown upon the adults who worshiped Baal and commit other atrocities by allowing them to be conquered by a fierce and cruel nation. His wrath is also see in his either not allowing children to be born or not allowing their "beloved fruit" to live into adulthood.
• God's mercy is shown by not allowing very many children to be born at this time and not allowing those to be born live until adulthood.

This isn't the first time that God has taken a baby or a child away via death to protect it from something dreadful. I taught in my community Bible Study a few weeks ago how the horrible king of Israel [the 10 tribes], Jeroboam lost a son that God took away.

A prophet tells Jeroboam's wife that her sick son will die. Jeroboam had sent her to ask about what would happen. He even sent gifts. The prophet told her harshly that Jeroboam entire clan would be destroyed eventually. But that when she went back home as soon as she crossed the threshold, her child would die.

That seems harsh to punish a child for great sins of his father, right? But in 1 Kings 14, the Bible states that the prophet told her that God was taking the child because that child was the ONLY one in Jeroboams household with whom God had found anything pleasing. It was a grievous loss to the wicked Jeroboam and his wife, but it was a victory for the child that God spared him the devastations and horror that were to come.

And then, of course, there is David's baby who dies. God punished David by taking his baby son. God spared that son, who would be known all his days as a bastard son, from shame.

Thanks for your thoughts on this, I do see what you are saying.

[kyCyd]

Exodus 21:22
“When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine.
But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life,

then you have the LXX

22 And if two men strive and smite a woman with child, and her child be born imperfectly formed, he shall be forced to pay a penalty: as the woman’s husband may lay upon him, he shall pay with a valuation. 23 But if it be perfectly formed, he shall give life for life,

the passages show there is a difference between the complete and incomplete form of a fetus.

Philo teaching on the passage:
And with respect to these matters the following law has beenenacted with great beauty and propriety: “If while two men arefighting one should strike a woman who is great with child, andher child should come from her before it is completely formed,he shall be muleted in a fine, according to what the husband ofthe woman shall impose on him, and he shall pay the finedeservedly. But if the child be fully formed, he shall pay lifefor life."{35). For it was not the same thing, to destroy a perfectand an imperfect work . . . .”

Josephus
“He that kicks a pregnant woman, if the woman miscarry,shall be fined by the judges for having, by the destruction ofthe fruit of her womb, diminished the population, and afurther sum shall be presented by him to the woman’shusband. If she die by the blow, he shall also die, the lawclaiming sacrifice of life for life.

Both had different views but both agreed the uncompleted fetus was not the same as a fully formed one.

The thing about abortion is you are making a decision on something God formed and made.

Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

[Brother Mark]

Exodus 21:22
“When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine.
But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life,

then you have the LXX

22 And if two men strive and smite a woman with child, and her child be born imperfectly formed, he shall be forced to pay a penalty: as the woman’s husband may lay upon him, he shall pay with a valuation. 23 But if it be perfectly formed, he shall give life for life,

Both passages require "life for life" if the baby is born dead. If serious injury occurs, then the law of "eye for an eye", "tooth for a tooth" etc. is required.

Ex. 21:22 “If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely[e] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

God is showing in this passage that he considers the unborn baby fully human. If there is injury to the fetus, then whatever injury that is, is to be visited upon the perpetrator, including death.

[Brother Mark]

I don’t know how you see such (the red)

These verses merely give the men a break ( on the punishment scale ) if the fetus is not harmed, showing that indeed God sees the fetus as a full human and not some lesser form of person. The soul is there upon conception.

Correct. Those verses require that whatever harm is done to the fetus is also done to the perpetrator.

[bluesky22]

I deleted all but what should be focused on... the "breath" of Genesis 2:7. So, as you can understand, I am focusing in that breath, not seemingly attempting to take the breath out of the equation. What I will attempt to do is help you PLACE the breath into proper context with that verse you used to support that God places a soul into a person and they come to life only when this breath happens.

If you are willing to take "a" step in that direction... lets learn together.

Quote Originally Posted by jaybird View Post
life begins with breath, life ends with the last breath. you seem to want to take the breath out of the equation and i dont think its a good idea to do that

Adam and every baby born since are two completely different things.

Adam ( the first man ever ) was created fully formed man by God, ( no woman involved ) hence requiring a breath from God (which is also symbolic on our dependence from God.)

Babies are born/created of a woman, ( co-created by a man ) in a completely different manner. This different does not green light the believe that babies are only humans upon birth.

Context brother, as Slug stated.

Becareful you don’t fall for Jewish fables. ( yes the Talmud and Mishnah teaches that A baby is not human until birth )

[bluesky22]

[QUOTE=jaybird;3489012]of course they are sustained by the mother, thats becouse their formation is not complete. this is what i been saying all along.

John the Baptist, as a fetus, was filled with the Holy Spirit. Gabriel said it would be that way and when John, the fetus, responded to Mary's voice via his mother's ears, SHE became filled with the Holy Spirit as a result, not vice versa.

how does the spirit of the Most High imply He was a completed form before he was born? it makes no sense.

Why is it assumed by some that just because one is not fully-formed, one is not human? How silly a conclusion.

When a baby is born, they are not fully formed ( as in developed ) but clearly, they are developed enough to be born. They continue to develope for many years.

So a baby in its 1 month, post conception, is still human, just not a fully developed one.

A baby post-birth cannot survive without its mother, for many years, just as it can’t survive pre-birth ( via its umbilical cord)

That’s like saying that one is not human until one can total fend for themselves.

Silly.

[jaybird]

I don’t know how you see such (the red)

These verses merely give the men a break ( on the punishment scale ) if the fetus is not harmed, showing that indeed God sees the fetus as a full human and not some lesser form of person. The soul is there upon conception.

lets look again:

Exodus 21:22
“When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine.
But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life,

then you have the LXX

22 And if two men strive and smite a woman with child, and her child be born imperfectly formed, he shall be forced to pay a penalty: as the woman’s husband may lay upon him, he shall pay with a valuation. 23 But if it be perfectly formed, he shall give life for life,

what exactly yuu think they mean by imperfectly formed?

Philo teaching on the passage:
And with respect to these matters the following law has beenenacted with great beauty and propriety: “If while two men arefighting one should strike a woman who is great with child, andher child should come from her before it is completely formed,he shall be muleted in a fine, according to what the husband ofthe woman shall impose on him, and he shall pay the finedeservedly. But if the child be fully formed, he shall pay lifefor life."{35). For it was not the same thing, to destroy a perfectand an imperfect work . . . .”

Josephus
“He that kicks a pregnant woman, if the woman miscarry,shall be fined by the judges for having, by the destruction ofthe fruit of her womb, diminished the population, and afurther sum shall be presented by him to the woman’shusband. If she die by the blow, he shall also die, the lawclaiming sacrifice of life for life.

Philo - imperfectly form is not the same as a fully formed human

Josephus - when a women miscarries (not completely formed) equals a fine. do we pay a fine for murder, of course not.

and that is how i see such