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Thread: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

  1. #76
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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Complete formation of a body does not mean one exists. Lots of people don't have a complete body but they are still human beings.



    He doesn't imply his body was completed. He implies he was a human being before he was born. He actually doesn't imply it, He states it.

    Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

    Consider for a moment, that you might be wrong. The passages you have given on "breath of life" are from one couple who were never born, never conceived, etc. And the passage in Job was about "having" God's breath not being breathed on once. Please consider, as Slug has pointed out, there is a difference between the body and the soul. Yet, we know the body is alive in the mother's womb. And if the body is alive, then doesn't the soul have to be present? Isn't death separation? When the body dies, the soul and spirit are separated from the body.

    Here's the hebrew definition of soul:

    OT:5315 nephesh (neh'-fesh); from OT:5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):

    Literally, Adam became a breathing creature. He became a living being. Before that, he was not alive. But he was not born. Eve was not born either. But scripture doesn't say she was breathed into. She is a type of the church because she is the very first being that was life created from life. Just as we are created, spiritually, from Jesus life. Anyway, Adam's body came alive when God breathed into him. We know from science, and the scriptures, the baby's body is alive in the womb just as Adam's was alive after God breathed into him. Babies today are born, adam was not. We can't compare the two in this manner concerning "the breath of life".

    And as Slug has pointed out, this is a spiritual meaning... they were also alive spiritually upon creation. But died and were separated from God when they sinned. Yet, the body lived on.
    as i pointed out, Adam did not become a living soul until after first breath, and Job confirms it.

  2. #77
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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    The thing about abortion is you are making a decision on something God formed and made.

    Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
    i agree 100 percent. we have no place to interfere with the creation process. once conception has taken place and the women is pregnant, there is no stopping the process once it has began.
    my point all along has nothing to do with advocating abortion, it has to do with when life begins and when we receive our soul. if all this begins at conception it makes birth and first breath rather meaningless and it leads to some problems with other scriptures as well, such as the generations should be beginning at conception rather than birth. and we know this is false.

  3. #78
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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Both passages require "life for life" if the baby is born dead. If serious injury occurs, then the law of "eye for an eye", "tooth for a tooth" etc. is required.

    Ex. 21:22 “If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely[e] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

    God is showing in this passage that he considers the unborn baby fully human. If there is injury to the fetus, then whatever injury that is, is to be visited upon the perpetrator, including death.
    i dont thnk so, if this was true then why does no one teach it that way until recent years. the examples i showed with Josephus and Pliny say different. the Jewish targums also support this.

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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    Adam and every baby born since are two completely different things.

    Adam ( the first man ever ) was created fully formed man by God, ( no woman involved ) hence requiring a breath from God (which is also symbolic on our dependence from God.)

    Babies are born/created of a woman, ( co-created by a man ) in a completely different manner. This different does not green light the believe that babies are only humans upon birth.

    Context brother, as Slug stated.

    Becareful you don’t fall for Jewish fables. ( yes the Talmud and Mishnah teaches that A baby is not human until birth )
    women form babies in the womb? how does a women determine the baby grow 2 arms and not three arms?

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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by jaybird View Post
    i dont thnk so, if this was true then why does no one teach it that way until recent years. the examples i showed with Josephus and Pliny say different. the Jewish targums also support this.
    Recent? The bible verses were just quoted:

    NASBU

    Ex 21:22 "If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. 23 "But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

    The "gives birth prematurely" means literally "her child came out".

    New Living Translation:

    22 "Now suppose two men are fighting, and in the process they accidentally strike a pregnant woman so she gives birth prematurely. If no further injury results, the man who struck the woman must pay the amount of compensation the woman's husband demands and the judges approve. 23 But if there is further injury, the punishment must match the injury: a life for a life, 24 an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a hand for a hand, a foot for a foot, 25 a burn for a burn, a wound for a wound, a bruise for a bruise.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible:

    22 "When men get in a fight, and hit a pregnant woman so that her children are born prematurely, but there is no injury, the one who hit her must be fined as the woman's husband demands from him, and he must pay according to judicial assessment. 23 If there is an injury, then you must give life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, bruise for bruise, wound for wound.

    KJV:

    22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
    23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
    24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
    25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

    Over and over again we see that if the child departs from her, and no mischief/injury, etc. follows, then the perpetrator is to be fined according to how the husband rules. However, if the child is harmed, then the full law applies as if the child were already born, eye for an eye, life for life, etc.

    The hebrew word is "yatsa" means:

    OT:3318 yatsa' (yaw-tsaw'); a primitive root; to go (causatively, bring) out

    That is translated as "depart" from the mother, premature birth, etc.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by jaybird View Post
    so you believe our soul comes from the earth ?
    Nope.

    Are you saying that a baby, whether it be 4 weeks or 8.5 months, who dies in the womb goes neither to heaven or to hell? If a baby in the womb has no soul until it comes out of its mother and takes a breath, then all aborted babies, miscarried babies, and babies who die of accidental or homicidal events just rot with no "existence"?

    The Exodus verse you cited - I almost cited it last night, but I got distracted. That's the very verse I used to explain the sanctity of life when I taught 6th grade at the Christian school I was at for a few years.

    It's referencing an accident where a pregnant woman goes into labor and the child come out. If it lives - it's still bad, but a fine paid - determined by the father of the child.

    If is comes out a dies - a death punishment is owed. That very passage says "life for life".

    The one who caused the accident and subsequent death of the fetus must die in for that fetus for justice to be considered done. "Life for life"

    Do you understand what that means, jaybird? The baby in the womb is alive and considered on the same plane of wealth in God's eyes as the adult man who caused the problem.

    How can a baby be alive in the womb and have no soul? If it is expelled from her body and as you say, has no soul, then why the law?
    ".....it's your nickel"

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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by jaybird View Post
    as i pointed out, Adam did not become a living soul until after first breath, and Job confirms it.
    When did Eve become a living soul?

    Your quote of Elihu is in no way confirming a breathe of a newborn = soul.

    Elihu does say in verse 4 of chapter 33 that "The Spirit of God has made me, and lthe breath of the Almighty gives me life." Gives.....not gave. Sustains him, not a one time puff like a holy atomizer that set Elihu into motion like a robot.

    Besides, look two more verses down at verse 6. He says, "Behold, I am toward God as you are; I too was pinched off from a piece of clay."

    Do you really think God took a piece of clay and pinched off a piece and made Elihu?

    Elihu is not teaching Job about where babies come from or how they gain a soul. Read for yourself Elihu's quite lengthy speech and you'll see he's talking about something else altogether.
    ".....it's your nickel"

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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by jaybird View Post
    lets look again: Exodus 21:22
    [COLOR="#0000CD"]“When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judNew International Version
    "If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows.
    New Living Translation
    "Now suppose two men are fighting, and in the process they accidentally strike a pregnant woman so she gives birth prematurely. If no further injury results, the man who struck the woman must pay the amount of compensation the woman's husband demands and the judges approve.

    English Standard Version
    “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman’s husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine.

    Berean Study Bible
    If men who are fighting strike a pregnant woman and her child is born prematurely, but there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband demands and as the court allows.

    New American Standard Bible
    "If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide.

    King James Bible
    If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

    Christian Standard Bible
    "When men get in a fight and hit a pregnant woman so that her children are born prematurely but there is no injury, the one who hit her must be fined as the woman's husband demands from him, and he must pay according to judicial assessment.

    Contemporary English Version
    Suppose a pregnant woman suffers a miscarriage as the result of an injury caused by someone who is fighting. If she isn't badly hurt, the one who injured her must pay whatever fine her husband demands and the judges approve.

    Good News Translation
    "If some men are fighting and hurt a pregnant woman so that she loses her child, but she is not injured in any other way, the one who hurt her is to be fined whatever amount the woman's husband demands, subject to the approval of the judges.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    When men get in a fight and hit a pregnant woman so that her children are born prematurely but there is no injury, the one who hit her must be fined as the woman's husband demands from him, and he must pay according to judicial assessment.

    International Standard Version
    "If two men are fighting and they strike a pregnant woman and her children are born prematurely, but there is no harm, he is certainly to be fined as the husband of the woman demands of him, and he will pay as the court decides.

    NET Bible
    "If men fight and hit a pregnant woman and her child is born prematurely, but there is no serious injury, he will surely be punished in accordance with what the woman's husband demands of him, and he will pay what the court decides.

    New Heart English Bible
    "If men fight and strike a pregnant woman so that her child is born prematurely, but there is no injury, he shall be surely fined as much as the woman's husband demands and the judges allow.

    GOD'S WORD® Translation
    "This is what you must do whenever men fight and injure a pregnant woman so that she gives birth prematurely. If there are no other injuries, the offender must pay whatever fine the court allows the woman's husband to demand.

    JPS Tanakh 1917
    And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no harm follow, he shall be surely fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

    New American Standard 1977
    “And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide.

    Jubilee Bible 2000
    If men strive and hurt a woman with child so that she aborts but without death, he shall be surely punished according as the woman's husband will lay upon him, and he shall pay by the judges.

    King James 2000 Bible
    If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no mischief follows: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

    American King James Version
    If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

    American Standard Version
    And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no harm follow; he shall be surely fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

    Brenton Septuagint Translation
    And if two men strive and smite a woman with child, and her child be born imperfectly formed, he shall be forced to pay a penalty: as the woman's husband may lay upon him, he shall pay with a valuation.

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    If men quarrel, and one strike a woman with child, and she miscarry indeed, but live herself: he shall be answerable for so much damage as the woman's husband shall require, and as arbiters shall award.

    Darby Bible Translation
    And if men strive together, and strike a woman with child, so that she be delivered, and no mischief happen, he shall in any case be fined, according as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and shall give it as the judges estimate.

    English Revised Version
    And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

    Webster's Bible Translation
    If men shall contend, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit shall depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

    World English Bible
    "If men fight and hurt a pregnant woman so that she gives birth prematurely, and yet no harm follows, he shall be surely fined as much as the woman's husband demands and the judges allow.

    Young's Literal Translation
    'And when men strive, and have smitten a pregnant woman, and her children have come out, and there is no mischief, he is certainly fined, as the husband of the woman doth lay upon him, and he hath given through the judges;ges determine.
    But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life,[/QUOTE]

    Indeed. Are all these translations wrong?


    Then you have the LXX: 22 And if two men strive and smite a woman with child, and her child be born imperfectly formed, he shall be forced to pay a penalty: as the woman’s husband may lay upon him, he shall pay with a valuation. 23 But if it be perfectly formed, he shall give life for life,

    What exactly yuu think they mean by imperfectly formed?
    IMPERFECLY FORMED = unable to be viable at birth.


    Philo teaching on the passage:
    And with respect to these matters the following law has beenenacted with great beauty and propriety: “If while two men arefighting one should strike a woman who is great with child, andher child should come from her before it is completely formed,he shall be muleted in a fine, according to what the husband ofthe woman shall impose on him, and he shall pay the finedeservedly. But if the child be fully formed, he shall pay lifefor life."{35). For it was not the same thing, to destroy a perfectand an imperfect work . . . .”
    Disagree.

    Josephus
    “He that kicks a pregnant woman, if the woman miscarry, shall be fined by the judges for having, by the destruction ofthe fruit of her womb, diminished the population, and afurther sum shall be presented by him to the woman’s husband. If she die by the blow, he shall also die, the lawclaiming sacrifice of life for life
    Josephus has it right.

    Philo - imperfectly form is not the same as a fully formed human

    Josephus - when a women miscarries (not completely formed) equals a fine. do we pay a fine for murder, of course not.

    and that is how i see such


    22“Now suppose two men are fighting, and in the process they accidentally strike a pregnant woman so she gives birth prematurely.c If no further injury results, the man who struck the woman must pay the amount of compensation the woman’s husband demands and the judges approve. 23But if there is further injury, [ to the child ] the punishment must match the injury: a life for a life, 24an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a hand for a hand, a foot for a foot, 25a burn for a burn, a wound for a wound, a bruise for a bruise.
    Vs23 onward describe what happens if the child is injured. Punishment matches the injury to the child.
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Recent? The bible verses were just quoted:

    NASBU

    Ex 21:22 "If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. 23 "But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

    The "gives birth prematurely" means literally "her child came out".

    New Living Translation:

    22 "Now suppose two men are fighting, and in the process they accidentally strike a pregnant woman so she gives birth prematurely. If no further injury results, the man who struck the woman must pay the amount of compensation the woman's husband demands and the judges approve. 23 But if there is further injury, the punishment must match the injury: a life for a life, 24 an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a hand for a hand, a foot for a foot, 25 a burn for a burn, a wound for a wound, a bruise for a bruise.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible:

    22 "When men get in a fight, and hit a pregnant woman so that her children are born prematurely, but there is no injury, the one who hit her must be fined as the woman's husband demands from him, and he must pay according to judicial assessment. 23 If there is an injury, then you must give life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, bruise for bruise, wound for wound.

    KJV:

    22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
    23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
    24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
    25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

    Over and over again we see that if the child departs from her, and no mischief/injury, etc. follows, then the perpetrator is to be fined according to how the husband rules. However, if the child is harmed, then the full law applies as if the child were already born, eye for an eye, life for life, etc.

    The hebrew word is "yatsa" means:

    OT:3318 yatsa' (yaw-tsaw'); a primitive root; to go (causatively, bring) out

    That is translated as "depart" from the mother, premature birth, etc.
    ok so we have a women having a baby early but other than that no harm, in other words a perfect birth, and the other if the baby dies its life for life.
    if this is what it means, why are the men being fined when a baby is born with no harm? sorry but that makes no sense at all.

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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by jayne View Post
    Nope.

    Are you saying that a baby, whether it be 4 weeks or 8.5 months, who dies in the womb goes neither to heaven or to hell? If a baby in the womb has no soul until it comes out of its mother and takes a breath, then all aborted babies, miscarried babies, and babies who die of accidental or homicidal events just rot with no "existence"?

    The Exodus verse you cited - I almost cited it last night, but I got distracted. That's the very verse I used to explain the sanctity of life when I taught 6th grade at the Christian school I was at for a few years.

    It's referencing an accident where a pregnant woman goes into labor and the child come out. If it lives - it's still bad, but a fine paid - determined by the father of the child.

    If is comes out a dies - a death punishment is owed. That very passage says "life for life".

    The one who caused the accident and subsequent death of the fetus must die in for that fetus for justice to be considered done. "Life for life"

    Do you understand what that means, jaybird? The baby in the womb is alive and considered on the same plane of wealth in God's eyes as the adult man who caused the problem.

    How can a baby be alive in the womb and have no soul? If it is expelled from her body and as you say, has no soul, then why the law?
    thats the only conclusion i could see. before the breath of life all human substance is matter of this world, not the heavens, not the Most High, that spiritual part , soul, comes from the breath, if not then it has to come from the man, women and the physical world.

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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by jaybird View Post
    ok so we have a women having a baby early but other than that no harm, in other words a perfect birth, and the other if the baby dies its life for life.
    if this is what it means, why are the men being fined when a baby is born with no harm? sorry but that makes no sense at all.
    Because they caused a premature birth, which is risky behavior. It also is emotionally damaging to both the mother and the father. The idea could be to fine the risky behavior if no harm comes so that others will be discouraged from taking such risks. It also could be to compensate, in some way, the emotional trauma caused to the parents. Also, it is not "the perfect birth" for the child was born early because of the trauma to the mother. But in the end, there was no physical damage so only a fine was put in place.

    Our older version, the most used, English translation the KJV, along with many modern ones, all write these verses the same exact way.

    We have similar laws in our system today that progressively deal with behavior and increase punishment based on the harm the behavior brings. You get fined for drunk driving even if no harm comes to anyone. But hit someone and you have to deal with all those consequences. Hit someone and kill them while driving under the influence and you may get convicted of murder or man slaughter and spend a long, long time in jail.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by jayne View Post
    When did Eve become a living soul?
    scripture does not specify, do we take it upon ourself to add what is not there?

    Your quote of Elihu is in no way confirming a breathe of a newborn = soul.

    Elihu does say in verse 4 of chapter 33 that "The Spirit of God has made me, and lthe breath of the Almighty gives me life." Gives.....not gave. Sustains him, not a one time puff like a holy atomizer that set Elihu into motion like a robot.

    Besides, look two more verses down at verse 6. He says, "Behold, I am toward God as you are; I too was pinched off from a piece of clay."

    Do you really think God took a piece of clay and pinched off a piece and made Elihu?

    Elihu is not teaching Job about where babies come from or how they gain a soul. Read for yourself Elihu's quite lengthy speech and you'll see he's talking about something else altogether.
    it does not say it word for word but it is the closest thing we have, breath may not translate to soul word for word but we do know it means spiritual. if the soul does not come from this breath then the only other option is to believe our soul comes from this world and not the Most High.
    also there is no other passage to suggest anything different.

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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    From conception onward, what is the zygote/embryo/fetus if not human?

    Is it a chicken? No.

    It’s a baby human, undeveloped, requiring mother for survival.

    When it’s born, it’s still underdeveloped, requring it’s mother for survival.

    Same starus, just at different stages.
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Because they caused a premature birth, which is risky behavior. It also is emotionally damaging to both the mother and the father. The idea could be to fine the risky behavior if no harm comes so that others will be discouraged from taking such risks. It also could be to compensate, in some way, the emotional trauma caused to the parents. Also, it is not "the perfect birth" for the child was born early because of the trauma to the mother. But in the end, there was no physical damage so only a fine was put in place.

    Our older version, the most used, English translation the KJV, along with many modern ones, all write these verses the same exact way.

    We have similar laws in our system today that progressively deal with behavior and increase punishment based on the harm the behavior brings. You get fined for drunk driving even if no harm comes to anyone. But hit someone and you have to deal with all those consequences. Hit someone and kill them while driving under the influence and you may get convicted of murder or man slaughter and spend a long, long time in jail.
    if there is emotional damge then there would in fact be damage, the passage says there was no damage. so again, im not understanding what the men are being punished for.
    if a miscarriage took place then it makes perfect sense. this was the interpretation of Josephus.

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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    breath of life 3rd example

    Job 34: 14-15
    If he should set his heart to it and gather to himself his spirit and his breath, all flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust.

    the flesh comes from this world, the mom and dad. and without the breath, His breath, the flesh is nothing. breathing starts at first breath.

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