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Thread: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

  1. #106
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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    [QUOTE=bluesky22;3489093]
    Quote Originally Posted by jaybird View Post
    breath of life 3rd example

    Job 34: 14-15
    If he should set his heart to it and gather to himself his spirit and his breath, all flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust.

    Indeed, man has no understand of just how much God hold all of this together. All of it, even when we think we are “doing it”

    I liken this to a young child or rebellious teen and their parents. The child has no idea of responsibility, bills, cleaning up, working 40hrs per week, buying, preparing etc.... yet the child stands in defiance at times of their parent, thinking they can exist outside of their parents provisions.



    Totally different thing. This verse does not mean that without an actual physical breath, one is not alive. Context brother!

    the passage says, word for word, without breath the flesh will parish. you cant use "context" to edit or delete that statement. context has nothing to do with changing a "yes" to a "no" or making a "with" to "without"
    your using context to remove the Father (breath) from the creation. not how "context" works. this would make about as much sense as you taking the command "dont commit adultery" and me claiming context!!! therefore its ok to commit adultery sometimes. you would think i had a mental defect.

  2. #107
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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    Are you saying these verses gives the green light for abortion ?
    i didnt write it. it sounds like an abortion or forced miscarry. is this incorrect?

  3. #108
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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Sorry jaybird, that last statement was meant for goat herd.


    I should clarify, “your meaning” or the Bibles?
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

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  4. #109
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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by jaybird View Post
    Numbers 5

    16 “And the priest shall bring her near and set her before the Lord. 17 And the priest shall take holy water in an earthenware vessel and take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water. 18 And the priest shall set the woman before the Lord and unbind the hair of the woman's head and place in her hands the grain offering of remembrance, which is the grain offering of jealousy. And in his hand the priest shall have the water of bitterness that brings the curse. 19 Then the priest shall make her take an oath, saying, ‘If no man has lain with you, and if you have not turned aside to uncleanness while you were under your husband's authority, be free from this water of bitterness that brings the curse. 20 But if you have gone astray, though you are under your husband's authority, and if you have defiled yourself, and some man other than your husband has lain with you, 21 then’ (let the priest make the woman take the oath of the curse, and say to the woman) ‘the Lord make you a curse and an oath among your people, when the Lord makes your thigh fall away and your body swell. 22 May this water that brings the curse pass into your bowels and make your womb swell and your thigh fall away.’ And the woman shall say, ‘Amen, Amen.’

    this passage has a test for women accused of adultery, if guilty their womb is forced to miscarry.
    As usual, there is more to this than meets the eye. These verses are not a green light for abortion.

    Different time difffent place.... different context.

    Matthew Henry has these thoughts.


    >>>Verses 11-31 We have here the law concerning the solemn trial of a wife whose husband was jealous of her. Observe,I. What was the case supposed: That a man had some reason to suspect his wife to have committed adultery, v. 12-14. Here, 1. The sin of adultery is justly represented as an exceedingly sinful sin; it is going aside from God and virtue, and the good way, Prov. 2:17 . It is committing a trespass against the husband, robbing him of his honour, alienating his right, introducing a spurious breed into his family to share with his children in his estate, and violating her covenant with him. It is being defiled; for nothing pollutes the mind and conscience more than this sin does.

    2. It is supposed to be a sin which great care is taken by the sinners to conceal, which there is no witness of. The eye of the adulterer waits for the twilight, Job. 24:15 . And the adulteress takes her opportunity when the good man is not at home, Prov. 7:19 . It would not covet to be secret if it were not shameful; and the devil who draws sinners to this sin teaches them how to cover it.

    3. The spirit of jealousy is supposed to come upon the husband, of which Solomon says, It is the rage of a man (Prov. 6:34 ), and that it is cruel as the grave, Cant. 8:6 . "Yet’’ (say the Jewish writers) "he must make it appear that he has some just cause for the suspicion.’’ The rule they give is, "If the husband have said unto his wife before witnesses, ’Be not thou in secret with such a man;’ and, notwithstanding that admonition, it is afterwards proved that she was in secret with that man, though her father or her brother, then he may compel her to drink the bitter water.’’

    But the law here does not tie him to that particular method of proving the just cause of his suspicion; it might be otherwise proved. In case it could be proved that she had committed adultery, she was to be put to death (Lev. 20:10 ); but, if it was uncertain, then this law took place. Hence, (1.) Let all wives be admonished not to give any the least occasion for the suspicion of their chastity; it is not enough that they abstain from the evil of uncleanness, but they must abstain from all appearance of it, from every thing that looks like it, or leads to it, or may give the least umbrage to jealousy; for how great a matter may a little fire kindle! (2.) Let all husbands be admonished not to entertain any causeless or unjust suspicions of their wives. If charity in general, much more conjugal affection, teaches to think no evil, 1 Co. 13:5 .

    It is the happiness of the virtuous woman that the heart of her husband does safely trust in her, Prov. 31:11 .II. What was the course prescribed in this case, that, if the suspected wife was innocent, she might not continue under the reproach and uneasiness of her husband’s jealousy, and, if guilty, her sin might find her out, and others might hear, and fear, and take warning.1. The process of the trial must be thus:—(1.) Her husband must bring her to the priest, with the witnesses that could prove the ground of his suspicion, and desire that she might be put upon her trial.

    The Jews say that the priest was first to endeavour to persuade her to confess the truth, saying to this purport, "Dear daughter, perhaps thou wast overtaken by drinking wine, or wast carried away by the heat of youth or the examples of bad neighbours; come, confess the truth, for the sake of his great name which is described in the most sacred ceremony, and do not let it be blotted out with the bitter water.’’ If she confessed, saying, "I am defiled,’’ she was not put to death, but was divorced and lost her dowry; if she said, "I am pure,’’ then they proceeded. (2.) He must bring a coarse offering of barley-meal, without oil or frankincense, agreeably to the present afflicted state of his family; for a great affliction it was either to have cause to be jealous or to be jealous without cause. It is an offering of memorial, to signify that what was to be done was intended as a religious appeal to the omniscience and justice of God. (3.)

    The priest was to prepare the water of jealousy, the holy water out of the laver at which the priests were to wash when they ministered; this must be brought in an earthen vessel, containing (they say) about a pint; and it must be an earthen vessel, because the coarser and plainer every thing was the more agreeable it was to the occasion. Dust must be put into the water, to signify the reproach she lay under, and the shame she ought to take to herself, putting her mouth in the dust; but dust from the floor of the tabernacle, to put an honour upon every thing that pertained to the place God had chosen to put his name there, and to keep up in the people a reverence for it; see Jn. 8:6 .

    (4.) The woman was to be set before the Lord, at the east gate of the temple-court (say the Jews), and her head was to be uncovered, in token of her sorrowful condition; and there she stood for a spectacle to the world, that other women might learn not to do after her lewdness, Eze. 23:48 . Only the Jews say, "Her own servants were not to be present, that she might not seem vile in their sight, who were to give honour to her; her husband also must be dismissed.’’ (5.) The priest was to adjure her to tell the truth, and to denounce the curse of God against her if she were guilty, and to declare what would be the effect of her drinking the water of jealousy, v. 19-22.

    He must assure her that, if she were innocent, the water would do her no harm, v. 19. None need fear the curse of the law if they have not broken the commands of the law. But, if she were guilty, this water would be poison to her, it would make her belly to swell and her thigh to rot, and she should be a curse or abomination among her people, v. 21, v. 22. To this she must say, Amen, as Israel must do to the curses pronounced on mount Ebal, Deu. 27:15-26 . Some think the Amen, being doubled, respects both parts of the adjuration, both that which freed her if innocent and that which condemned her if guilty. No woman, if she were guilty, could say Amen to this adjuration, and drink the water upon it, unless she disbelieved the truth of God or defied his justice, and had come to such a pitch of impudence and hard-heartedness in sin as to challenge God Almighty to do his worst, and choose rather to venture upon his curse than to give him glory by making confession; thus has whoredom taken away the heart. (6.)

    The priest was to write this curse in a scrip or scroll of parchment, verbatim—word for word, as he had expressed it, and then to wipe or scrape out what he had written into the water (v. 23), to signify that it was that curse which impregnated the water, and gave it its strength to effect what was intended. It signified that, if she were innocent, the curse should be blotted out and never appear against her, as it is written, Isa. 43:25 , I am he that blotteth out thy transgression, and Ps. 51:9 , Blot out my iniquities; but that, if she were guilty, the curse, as it was written, being infused into the water, would enter into her bowels with the water, even like oil into her bones (Ps. 109:18 ), as we read of a curse entering into a house, Zec. 5:4 . (7.)

    The woman must then drink the water (v. 24); it is called the bitter water, some think because they put wormwood in it to make it bitter, or rather because it caused the curse. Thus sin is called an evil thing and a bitter for the same reason, because it causeth the curse, Jer. 2:19 . If she had been guilty (and otherwise it did not cause the curse), she was made to know that though her stolen waters had been sweet, and her bread eaten in secret pleasant, yet the end was bitter as wormwood, Prov. 9:17 , and ch. 5:4 . Let all that meddle with forbidden pleasures know that they will be bitterness in the latter end. The Jews say that if, upon denouncing the curse, the woman was so terrified that she durst not drink the water, but confessed she was defiled, the priest flung down the water, and cast her offering among the ashes, and she was divorced without dowry: if she confessed not, and yet would not drink, they forced her to it; and, if she was ready to throw it up again, they hastened her away, that she might not pollute the holy place. (8.)

    Before she drank the water, the jealousy-offering was waved and offered upon the altar (v. 25, v. 26); a handful of it was burnt for a memorial, and the remainder of it eaten by the priest, unless the husband was a priest, and then it was scattered among the ashes. This offering in the midst of the transaction signified that the whole was an appeal to God, as a God that knows all things, and from whom no secret is hid. (9.) All things being thus performed according to the law, they were to wait the issue. The water, with a little dust put into it, and the scrapings of a written parchment, had no natural tendency at all to do either good or hurt; but if God was thus appealed to in the way of an instituted ordinance, though otherwise the innocent might have continued under suspicion and the guilty undiscovered, yet God would so far own his own institution as that in a little time, by the miraculous operation of Providence, the innocency of the innocent should be cleared, and the sin of the guilty should find them out. [1.]

    If the suspected woman was really guilty, the water she drank would be poison to her (v. 27), her belly would swell and her thigh rot by a vile disease for vile deserts, and she would mourn at the last when her flesh and body were consumed, Prov. 5:11 . Bishop Patrick says, from some of the Jewish writers, that the effect of these waters appeared immediately, she grew pale, and her eyes ready to start out of her head. Dr. Lightfoot says that sometimes it appeared not for two or three years, but she bore no children, was sickly, languished, and rotted at last; it is probable that some indications appeared immediately.

    The rabbin say that the adulterer also died in the same day and hour that the adulteress did, and in the same manner too, that he belly swelled, and his secret parts rotted: a disease perhaps not much unlike that which in these latter ages the avenging hand of a righteous God has made the scourge of uncleanness, and with which whores and whoremongers infect, and plague, and ruin one another, since they escape punishment from men. The Jewish doctors add that the waters had this effect upon the adulteress only in case the husband had never offended in the same kind; but that, if he had at any time defiled the marriage-bed, God did not thus right him against his injurious wife; and that therefore in the latter and degenerate ages of the Jewish church, when uncleanness did abound, this way of trial was generally disused and laid aside; men, knowing their own crimes, were content not to know their wives’ crimes. And to this perhaps may refer the threatening (Hos. 4:14 ), I will not punish your spouses when they commit adultery, for you yourselves are separated with whores. [2.] If she were innocent, the water she drank would be physic to her: She shall be free, and shall conceive seed, v. 28. The Jewish writers magnify the good effects of this water to the innocent woman, that, to recompense her for the wrong done to her by the suspicion, she should, after the drinking of these waters, be stronger and look better than ever; if she was sickly, she should become healthful, should bear a man-child, and have easy labour.2. From the whole we may learn, (1.) That secret sins are known to God, and sometimes are strangely brought to light in this life; however, there is a day coming when God will, by Jesus Christ, as here by the priest, judge the secrets of men according to the gospel, Rom. 2:16 .

    (2.) That, in particular, Whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. The violation of conjugal faith and chastity is highly provoking to the God of heaven, and sooner or later it will be reckoned for. Though we have not now the waters of jealousy to be a sensible terror to the unclean, yet we have a word from God which ought to be as great a terror, that if any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy, 1 Co. 3:17 . (3.) That God will find out some way or other to clear the innocency of the innocent, and to bring forth their righteousness as the light. (4.) That to the pure all things are pure, but to the defiled nothing is so, Tit. 1:15 . The same word is to some a savour of life unto life, to others a savour of death unto death, like those waters of jealousy, according as they receive it; the same providence is for good to some and for hurt to others, Jer. 24:5, Jer. 24:8, Jer. 24:9 . And, whatsoever it is intended for, it shall not return void.
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

  5. #110
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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    As usual, there is more to this than meets the eye. These verses are not a green light for abortion.

    Different time difffent place.... different context.

    Matthew Henry has these thoughts.


    >>>Verses 11-31 We have here the law concerning the solemn trial of a wife whose husband was jealous of her. Observe,I. What was the case supposed: That a man had some reason to suspect his wife to have committed adultery, v. 12-14. Here, 1. The sin of adultery is justly represented as an exceedingly sinful sin; it is going aside from God and virtue, and the good way, Prov. 2:17 . It is committing a trespass against the husband, robbing him of his honour, alienating his right, introducing a spurious breed into his family to share with his children in his estate, and violating her covenant with him. It is being defiled; for nothing pollutes the mind and conscience more than this sin does.

    2. It is supposed to be a sin which great care is taken by the sinners to conceal, which there is no witness of. The eye of the adulterer waits for the twilight, Job. 24:15 . And the adulteress takes her opportunity when the good man is not at home, Prov. 7:19 . It would not covet to be secret if it were not shameful; and the devil who draws sinners to this sin teaches them how to cover it.

    3. The spirit of jealousy is supposed to come upon the husband, of which Solomon says, It is the rage of a man (Prov. 6:34 ), and that it is cruel as the grave, Cant. 8:6 . "Yet’’ (say the Jewish writers) "he must make it appear that he has some just cause for the suspicion.’’ The rule they give is, "If the husband have said unto his wife before witnesses, ’Be not thou in secret with such a man;’ and, notwithstanding that admonition, it is afterwards proved that she was in secret with that man, though her father or her brother, then he may compel her to drink the bitter water.’’

    But the law here does not tie him to that particular method of proving the just cause of his suspicion; it might be otherwise proved. In case it could be proved that she had committed adultery, she was to be put to death (Lev. 20:10 ); but, if it was uncertain, then this law took place. Hence, (1.) Let all wives be admonished not to give any the least occasion for the suspicion of their chastity; it is not enough that they abstain from the evil of uncleanness, but they must abstain from all appearance of it, from every thing that looks like it, or leads to it, or may give the least umbrage to jealousy; for how great a matter may a little fire kindle! (2.) Let all husbands be admonished not to entertain any causeless or unjust suspicions of their wives. If charity in general, much more conjugal affection, teaches to think no evil, 1 Co. 13:5 .

    It is the happiness of the virtuous woman that the heart of her husband does safely trust in her, Prov. 31:11 .II. What was the course prescribed in this case, that, if the suspected wife was innocent, she might not continue under the reproach and uneasiness of her husband’s jealousy, and, if guilty, her sin might find her out, and others might hear, and fear, and take warning.1. The process of the trial must be thus:—(1.) Her husband must bring her to the priest, with the witnesses that could prove the ground of his suspicion, and desire that she might be put upon her trial.

    The Jews say that the priest was first to endeavour to persuade her to confess the truth, saying to this purport, "Dear daughter, perhaps thou wast overtaken by drinking wine, or wast carried away by the heat of youth or the examples of bad neighbours; come, confess the truth, for the sake of his great name which is described in the most sacred ceremony, and do not let it be blotted out with the bitter water.’’ If she confessed, saying, "I am defiled,’’ she was not put to death, but was divorced and lost her dowry; if she said, "I am pure,’’ then they proceeded. (2.) He must bring a coarse offering of barley-meal, without oil or frankincense, agreeably to the present afflicted state of his family; for a great affliction it was either to have cause to be jealous or to be jealous without cause. It is an offering of memorial, to signify that what was to be done was intended as a religious appeal to the omniscience and justice of God. (3.)

    The priest was to prepare the water of jealousy, the holy water out of the laver at which the priests were to wash when they ministered; this must be brought in an earthen vessel, containing (they say) about a pint; and it must be an earthen vessel, because the coarser and plainer every thing was the more agreeable it was to the occasion. Dust must be put into the water, to signify the reproach she lay under, and the shame she ought to take to herself, putting her mouth in the dust; but dust from the floor of the tabernacle, to put an honour upon every thing that pertained to the place God had chosen to put his name there, and to keep up in the people a reverence for it; see Jn. 8:6 .

    (4.) The woman was to be set before the Lord, at the east gate of the temple-court (say the Jews), and her head was to be uncovered, in token of her sorrowful condition; and there she stood for a spectacle to the world, that other women might learn not to do after her lewdness, Eze. 23:48 . Only the Jews say, "Her own servants were not to be present, that she might not seem vile in their sight, who were to give honour to her; her husband also must be dismissed.’’ (5.) The priest was to adjure her to tell the truth, and to denounce the curse of God against her if she were guilty, and to declare what would be the effect of her drinking the water of jealousy, v. 19-22.

    He must assure her that, if she were innocent, the water would do her no harm, v. 19. None need fear the curse of the law if they have not broken the commands of the law. But, if she were guilty, this water would be poison to her, it would make her belly to swell and her thigh to rot, and she should be a curse or abomination among her people, v. 21, v. 22. To this she must say, Amen, as Israel must do to the curses pronounced on mount Ebal, Deu. 27:15-26 . Some think the Amen, being doubled, respects both parts of the adjuration, both that which freed her if innocent and that which condemned her if guilty. No woman, if she were guilty, could say Amen to this adjuration, and drink the water upon it, unless she disbelieved the truth of God or defied his justice, and had come to such a pitch of impudence and hard-heartedness in sin as to challenge God Almighty to do his worst, and choose rather to venture upon his curse than to give him glory by making confession; thus has whoredom taken away the heart. (6.)

    The priest was to write this curse in a scrip or scroll of parchment, verbatim—word for word, as he had expressed it, and then to wipe or scrape out what he had written into the water (v. 23), to signify that it was that curse which impregnated the water, and gave it its strength to effect what was intended. It signified that, if she were innocent, the curse should be blotted out and never appear against her, as it is written, Isa. 43:25 , I am he that blotteth out thy transgression, and Ps. 51:9 , Blot out my iniquities; but that, if she were guilty, the curse, as it was written, being infused into the water, would enter into her bowels with the water, even like oil into her bones (Ps. 109:18 ), as we read of a curse entering into a house, Zec. 5:4 . (7.)

    The woman must then drink the water (v. 24); it is called the bitter water, some think because they put wormwood in it to make it bitter, or rather because it caused the curse. Thus sin is called an evil thing and a bitter for the same reason, because it causeth the curse, Jer. 2:19 . If she had been guilty (and otherwise it did not cause the curse), she was made to know that though her stolen waters had been sweet, and her bread eaten in secret pleasant, yet the end was bitter as wormwood, Prov. 9:17 , and ch. 5:4 . Let all that meddle with forbidden pleasures know that they will be bitterness in the latter end. The Jews say that if, upon denouncing the curse, the woman was so terrified that she durst not drink the water, but confessed she was defiled, the priest flung down the water, and cast her offering among the ashes, and she was divorced without dowry: if she confessed not, and yet would not drink, they forced her to it; and, if she was ready to throw it up again, they hastened her away, that she might not pollute the holy place. (8.)

    Before she drank the water, the jealousy-offering was waved and offered upon the altar (v. 25, v. 26); a handful of it was burnt for a memorial, and the remainder of it eaten by the priest, unless the husband was a priest, and then it was scattered among the ashes. This offering in the midst of the transaction signified that the whole was an appeal to God, as a God that knows all things, and from whom no secret is hid. (9.) All things being thus performed according to the law, they were to wait the issue. The water, with a little dust put into it, and the scrapings of a written parchment, had no natural tendency at all to do either good or hurt; but if God was thus appealed to in the way of an instituted ordinance, though otherwise the innocent might have continued under suspicion and the guilty undiscovered, yet God would so far own his own institution as that in a little time, by the miraculous operation of Providence, the innocency of the innocent should be cleared, and the sin of the guilty should find them out. [1.]

    If the suspected woman was really guilty, the water she drank would be poison to her (v. 27), her belly would swell and her thigh rot by a vile disease for vile deserts, and she would mourn at the last when her flesh and body were consumed, Prov. 5:11 . Bishop Patrick says, from some of the Jewish writers, that the effect of these waters appeared immediately, she grew pale, and her eyes ready to start out of her head. Dr. Lightfoot says that sometimes it appeared not for two or three years, but she bore no children, was sickly, languished, and rotted at last; it is probable that some indications appeared immediately.

    The rabbin say that the adulterer also died in the same day and hour that the adulteress did, and in the same manner too, that he belly swelled, and his secret parts rotted: a disease perhaps not much unlike that which in these latter ages the avenging hand of a righteous God has made the scourge of uncleanness, and with which whores and whoremongers infect, and plague, and ruin one another, since they escape punishment from men. The Jewish doctors add that the waters had this effect upon the adulteress only in case the husband had never offended in the same kind; but that, if he had at any time defiled the marriage-bed, God did not thus right him against his injurious wife; and that therefore in the latter and degenerate ages of the Jewish church, when uncleanness did abound, this way of trial was generally disused and laid aside; men, knowing their own crimes, were content not to know their wives’ crimes. And to this perhaps may refer the threatening (Hos. 4:14 ), I will not punish your spouses when they commit adultery, for you yourselves are separated with whores. [2.] If she were innocent, the water she drank would be physic to her: She shall be free, and shall conceive seed, v. 28. The Jewish writers magnify the good effects of this water to the innocent woman, that, to recompense her for the wrong done to her by the suspicion, she should, after the drinking of these waters, be stronger and look better than ever; if she was sickly, she should become healthful, should bear a man-child, and have easy labour.2. From the whole we may learn, (1.) That secret sins are known to God, and sometimes are strangely brought to light in this life; however, there is a day coming when God will, by Jesus Christ, as here by the priest, judge the secrets of men according to the gospel, Rom. 2:16 .

    (2.) That, in particular, Whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. The violation of conjugal faith and chastity is highly provoking to the God of heaven, and sooner or later it will be reckoned for. Though we have not now the waters of jealousy to be a sensible terror to the unclean, yet we have a word from God which ought to be as great a terror, that if any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy, 1 Co. 3:17 . (3.) That God will find out some way or other to clear the innocency of the innocent, and to bring forth their righteousness as the light. (4.) That to the pure all things are pure, but to the defiled nothing is so, Tit. 1:15 . The same word is to some a savour of life unto life, to others a savour of death unto death, like those waters of jealousy, according as they receive it; the same providence is for good to some and for hurt to others, Jer. 24:5, Jer. 24:8, Jer. 24:9 . And, whatsoever it is intended for, it shall not return void.
    and what are your thoughts on it? does a miscarry / abortion take place in the passage?

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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by jaybird View Post
    and what are your thoughts on it? does a miscarry / abortion take place in the passage?
    the no edit bug is driving me crazy.

    just wanted to add that i do not think the passage is giving a green light to abortion. but it does appear to be special circumstances in a few extreme cases.

  7. #112

    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    I re-read it and I can see why it caused confusion. Too bad we can't edit. Let me clarify.

    I am not in favor of abortion. Nothing I say should be read to say otherwise no matter how confused I may say it. I was on the board of the local Crisis Pregnancy Center for 10 years.

    I have clearly stated previously that even science says human life starts at conception.

    The implication of the law is that there is a suspected murder, but the proof is not beyond a reasonable doubt. There are two cases in the law: A murder and a death where there is reasonable doubt as to the fault. It has nothing to do with differing values of the child in the womb. They are both human and valuable. There is simply reasonable doubt of blame.

    Next time I will say, "Let me clarify" rather than "I think you read me wrong" so that you are not compelled to take it personally when no offense is intended.

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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    [QUOTE=jaybird;3489144]
    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post


    the passage says, word for word, without breath the flesh will parish. you cant use "context" to edit or delete that statement. context has nothing to do with changing a "yes" to a "no" or making a "with" to "without"
    your using context to remove the Father (breath) from the creation. not how "context" works. this would make about as much sense as you taking the command "dont commit adultery" and me claiming context!!! therefore its ok to commit adultery sometimes. you would think i had a mental defect.
    Your being too ultra-literal here with the text.

    How does this support abortion ? Clearly babies are alive, even without them actually “breathing”. ...if they were not, why would a doctor check in with mom once a month while pregnant?
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    [QUOTE=bluesky22;3489156]
    Quote Originally Posted by jaybird View Post

    Your being too ultra-literal here with the text.

    How does this support abortion ? Clearly babies are alive, even without them actually “breathing”. ...if they were not, why would a doctor check in with mom once a month while pregnant?
    i dont think its ultra literal. i have given many passages about the significance of breath. Adam was formed, the formation was completed, he was not a living soul until after first breath, we are formed, we are born, and our first act, first instinct independent of our mother is that first breath. the breath of the Most High gave life not just to us but to everything we know in this world. the first action in Genesis is the breath of the Father moving over this world. IMO this (breath) is very significant.
    i dont think it makes any difference that Adam was not in a mothers womb, either way the Most High formed Adam just as He formed us. Adam breathed after the formation was complete, we breath after the formation is complete. IMO its not coincidence.

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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by goatherd View Post
    I re-read it and I can see why it caused confusion. Too bad we can't edit. Let me clarify.

    I am not in favor of abortion. Nothing I say should be read to say otherwise no matter how confused I may say it. I was on the board of the local Crisis Pregnancy Center for 10 years.

    I have clearly stated previously that even science says human life starts at conception.

    The implication of the law is that there is a suspected murder, but the proof is not beyond a reasonable doubt. There are two cases in the law: A murder and a death where there is reasonable doubt as to the fault. It has nothing to do with differing values of the child in the womb. They are both human and valuable. There is simply reasonable doubt of blame.

    Next time I will say, "Let me clarify" rather than "I think you read me wrong" so that you are not compelled to take it personally when no offense is intended.
    Glad to hear that bother. I am not taking this personally, albeit, I take abortion very seriously. Thanks for the clarification. Just trying to understand what your saying

    Here is what you said:

    There is a child in the womb. There is a miscarriage because of a fight. If the child was well-formed, it is considered murder. If the child is mis-formed, then there is reasonable doubt that the miscarriage was not caused by the fight. Reasonable doub is the issue, not the worth of the child.
    Are you saying that just after fight between two men (and a pregnant woman is caught up in it) a child born at this moment is perhaps born deformed from some genetic abnormality, ( factors working outside the assault ) and dies, it’s and should not be held against the two men fighting because the abortion may have not been caused by the fighting per say, but because of the genetic malformation ?

    Just seeking clarification.
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by jaybird View Post

    i dont think its ultra literal. i have given many passages about the significance of breath. Adam was formed, the formation was completed, he was not a living soul until after first breath, we are formed, we are born, and our first act, first instinct independent of our mother is that first breath.
    Two different animals my friend. Adam was created fully formed, a man. God did what He does, to make him alive with a soul. A “breath” of life. I don’t know what this actually entails.


    the breath of the Most High gave life not just to us but to everything we know in this world. the first action in Genesis is the breath of the Father moving over this world. IMO this (breath) is very significant.
    I agree, a very profound moment. Quite different tho, from a pregnancy.

    i dont think it makes any difference that Adam was not in a mothers womb, either way the Most High formed Adam just as He formed us. Adam breathed after the formation was complete, we breath after the formation is complete. IMO its not coincidence.[/QUOTE]

    So are you saying that in order there to be life, we need to be physically breathing with our actual lungs?

    If so, why do doctors test fetuses for life?
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by jaybird View Post
    the no edit bug is driving me crazy.

    just wanted to add that i do not think the passage is giving a green light to abortion. but it does appear to be special circumstances in a few extreme cases.

    Good to hear. I have talked with a OB/GYN, ( I am a nurse ) they said the instances that the fetus requiring to be killed in order to save a mom, is rare, very rare, if non-existent.

    Trying to save mom, and baby, if only one must live, thats a different call than just killing the baby, for personal needs.

    In this case, its a very difficult situation. As long as both are tried to be saved, God will decide the final outcome. I don’t think God ( but I don’t know) would frown at a doctor trying to save both, but cannot.

    Such a tough call, I can’t even imagine. But let’s not kid ourselves, most abortions are done at the request of mom and or dad, not wanting to have a baby at any given time.
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Dang edit feature. I agree.
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    [QUOTE=jaybird;3489158]
    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post

    i dont think its ultra literal. i have given many passages about the significance of breath. Adam was formed, the formation was completed, he was not a living soul until after first breath, we are formed, we are born, and our first act, first instinct independent of our mother is that first breath. the breath of the Most High gave life not just to us but to everything we know in this world. the first action in Genesis is the breath of the Father moving over this world. IMO this (breath) is very significant.
    i dont think it makes any difference that Adam was not in a mothers womb, either way the Most High formed Adam just as He formed us. Adam breathed after the formation was complete, we breath after the formation is complete. IMO its not coincidence.
    Breathing life into the first man, is quite a different thing, than a woman giving life to a newly formed human. We can’t compare the two. Apples to oranges.

    The baby is breathing oxygen as you know...........from the second of conception.
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

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    Re: What God Thinks Of Abortion..

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    Two different animals my friend. Adam was created fully formed, a man. God did what He does, to make him alive with a soul. A “breath” of life. I don’t know what this actually entails.




    I agree, a very profound moment. Quite different tho, from a pregnancy.

    i dont think it makes any difference that Adam was not in a mothers womb, either way the Most High formed Adam just as He formed us. Adam breathed after the formation was complete, we breath after the formation is complete. IMO its not coincidence.
    So are you saying that in order there to be life, we need to be physically breathing with our actual lungs?

    If so, why do doctors test fetuses for life?[/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    I deleted all but what should be focused on... the "breath" of Genesis 2:7. So, as you can understand, I am focusing in that breath, not seemingly attempting to take the breath out of the equation. What I will attempt to do is help you PLACE the breath into proper context with that verse you used to support that God places a soul into a person and they come to life only when this breath happens.

    If you are willing to take "a" step in that direction... lets learn together.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaybird View Post
    i dont think its ultra literal. i have given many passages about the significance of breath. Adam was formed, the formation was completed, he was not a living soul until after first breath,
    Jaybird, you still have not touched on the context of the Genesis 2:7 verse. You focus on a "first breath" done by man is starting life while ignoring that "life" began at conception.

    Look at the context of the verse, has nothing to do with man's first breath. Its all about God's first breath as a final element of the creation process. Then from man, God created woman. Then together, man and woman continue procreating BUT, here is where your understanding seems to "want" life to start at a first breath... your misunderstanding is man/woman are not "creating" life... they are PROCREATING life. When does a man and woman accomplish this procreation?

    When a baby is conceived! Meaning, life is continued at the moment of conceiving.
    Slug1--out

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