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Thread: Demons

  1. #16

    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    As for the timing. Simply I will say that satan was on the earth very soon after creation, otherwise he'd not be able to temp the first two humans. As for specifics of "soon" after, God said the creation was good, so there had to be time between that moment and the time satan temped mankind in the garden.

    As Jayne pointed out, Rev 12 details and supports that demons, along with satan are from heaven and were once angels.

    From our past discussions, I assume you've continued with a study and are working out your thoughts with this thread? Some believe that all demons are imprisoned per the Jude 6 verse. However, when you read on and find some more contexts, when you get to verse 13, there are "wandering stars" referred to also (divide this scripture with Isaiah 14:12). If you have not studied this, please do and if/when possible, post your thoughts on this context. My simple thought, some demons are locked up but the wandering stars are all those roaming the earth under satans domain as Paul details in Ephesians 6.

    Concerning any study of Jude 13, some also will say that wandering stars are "just" people who are false teachers (2 Peter 2) but we can't forget, scripture informs us also, that many are "false prophets" and what is a difference? One is just missled in knowledge and speaks falsehoods/misinterpretations (wolves/tares, etc) of scripture for self gain (prosperity) and self glorification. The other however, is empowered by supernatural forces and who actually do signs/wonders (counterfeit/imitation of course and true discernment of spirits helps ID what is of God or of satan - churches/Christians who believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ended, satan can operate freely around them). These "supernatural forces" again, are those detailed in Eph 6 and is a majority of the angels cast out and are now demons under satan's control. And yes, hauntings in the world ARE satan's demons, manifesting and mostly the lost world glamorize and even glorify this and even some Christians do too. All fortune tellers in the world that actually operate supernaturally (no parlor tricks), more demon activity (Acts 16).

    OK... I think I will blow out a fuse if I continue posting
    Cool thanks, Im not going to counter anyones points I just want to assemble the info, Ill end up making a graph, with an overview of history from Creation to the Great white throne, with peoples references and timelines, Some people think Rev 12 is still a future fall and stuff(not me) so it will be hard work with peoples differing views on it. I love doing overall outlines it helps for me to abstractly look at viewpoints for me to see and understand the pros and cons.

    Just to clarify, it is the one third of all angels who fall and could also have possibly been in the garden of Eden before Adam and Eve transgressed?

  2. #17

    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    They seem to represents the gods of ancient pagan peoples. The NT Scriptures acknowledge that they exist in the form of spirits. Apparently, they are fallen angels. People who worship them are under a curse, and end up getting sick or losing their prosperity.

    There is a lack of knowledge about them because so much of the OT Scriptures dealt with the contrast between God and idolatry. God wanted to turn His people away from worshiping false gods, and from getting involved in the works of darkness that end up getting them cursed. Indulgence in that is bad enough for pagans. For God's People to give up on God and to turn to these false gods is looking to get a beating! Why focus on that when we can focus on the truth, and on the one true God?
    Thanks, So the demons were worshipped throughout the Old testament and could curse people, would you mind giving me a reference to look at so im not thinking of the wrong examples? Were they also responsible for the golden calf? and just to clarify these same demons are the ones in the gospel accounts?

    Also any thoughts on why and the timing of when they fell?

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    Question Re: Demons

    I know you are asking about demons , but I would like to establish what a fallen angel can do . Daniel Chapter 10

    12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
    13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
    14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.
    15 And when he had spoken such words unto me, I set my face toward the ground, and I became dumb.
    16 And, behold, one like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength.
    17 For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me.
    18 Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me,
    19 And said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me.
    20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
    21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

    These princes that the angel that was sent to Daniel is talking about are fallen angels . Does everybody agree on that ? If fallen angels are fighting with good angels aren't they a lot more powerful than demons ?

    I don't thing fallen angels and demons are the same .

  4. #19

    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by hawkman View Post
    I know you are asking about demons , but I would like to establish what a fallen angel can do . Daniel Chapter 10

    12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
    13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
    14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.
    15 And when he had spoken such words unto me, I set my face toward the ground, and I became dumb.
    16 And, behold, one like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength.
    17 For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me.
    18 Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me,
    19 And said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me.
    20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
    21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

    These princes that the angel that was sent to Daniel is talking about are fallen angels . Does everybody agree on that ? If fallen angels are fighting with good angels aren't they a lot more powerful than demons?
    I always saw the prince of Persia and the prince of Greece as Satan, as Satan was the prince of the world, I actually think Satan indwelt Nebuchadnezzar, and Alexander the great, and the leaders of the empires (not Israel though) I could be wrong but when I read Daniel I also read of how Nebuchadnezzar AKA Satan treated God with some respect and Daniel with respect.

    I don't thing fallen angels and demons are the same .
    Please by all means, elaborate

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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    We have in our Gospel accounts lots demonic activity, I do not want to present my position or even discuss my position, But I've realised I do not understand the position the majority hold on certain key points and until I know and understand peoples positions I cant say I am understanding properly about things.

    So please help me out by presenting your point of view on a couple of things and give me a starting point to work on.

    1. Who are these demons and where did they come from?

    2. In the epistles Jude and Peter wrote, they talk about angels who sinned, but are now in chains, who and where did these come from?

    Please provide some scripture with your answers so I can read and follow along with your thoughts.
    The Bible is scanty in information concerning the demons. But there is evidence to be gleaned.

    1. First, the Bible makes a difference between an angel and a demon. Both are spirits, but no angel is recorded as possessing a man*
    2. Next, we must dispense of those angels who are in Tartaroo (2nd Pet.2:4). They are locked up in a subterranean prison while demons still roam the earth. They are those angels that mixed with women at Noah's time and brought forth "giants".
    3. Next, angels inhabit heaven. The fallen angels only lose this habitation 3½ years before the end of the age (Rev.12:4). Demons inhabit the sea (Lk.8:33) or bodies.

    This last point might be a pointer at the origin of demons. But since no scripture directly shows their origin, it is speculative. Based on the wording and grammar of Genesis 1:1-2, many Bible scholars believe that the creation of Genesis 1:1 is an accomplished event. The Hebrew sense is that it is a thought and action complete in itself. Then, verse 2, when literally translated, reads; "BUT the earth BECAME a confusion, and empty; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." Not only is verse 2 a new thought, but it shows that something happened to cause chaos. "The earth 'BECAME'" means that it was not like that before. And if we interpret scripture with scripture, we have a DOUBLE witness that God's JUDGMENT is apparent. "DARKNESS" is a sign of judgment as complete darkness covered the daylight whilst Christ was being judged for our sins on the cross. And covering with "WATER" is a sign of God implementing universal judgment like the flood of Noah, and local judgement like Baptism. Suffice to say that, because God is not a God of chaos and emptiness (Isa.45:18), something really did happen to change the arrangement of things.

    How long the earth existed before the judgement of Genesis 1:2, and how long it was covered with water in darkness is not told, but as God restored the earth in six days, He installs a NEW GOVERNOR - Adam. But by a careful study of the whole Bible we see that Satan was once a Governor of the earth and still claims that position after man's fall (Lk.4:6; Jn.12:31, 14:30, 16:11). Added to this, we see Satan accused of causing a chaos and imprisoning his subjects (Isa.14:17). Since this has not happened since Adam, it must have happened BEFORE the chaos of Genesis 1:2. By piecing together the evidence we could say that Satan was governor of the pre-Adamic world, that he drew the earth into his rebellion against God, and that he was a source of chaos and death that dis-inhabited the earth and made it empty.

    If so (and it is an "IF"), then the demons, being disembodied spirits, could be the spirits of those beings who populated the earth before Genesis 1:2. It is implied that if the earth "became" empty, it was once inhabited. The evidence for this is that in Genesis 1:28, "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, ... ." "Replenish" means it was once full and was emptied and must be filled again. This same word in the Hebrew is seen to mean the same in Genesis 9:1 were, after killing all life save eight people, God, "... blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth." It is the same in Genesis 21:19. "And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink." The bottle, a vessel that carried water, had become empty and needed to be "replenished". Again, in Genesis 26:15, "For all the wells which his father's servants had digged in the days of Abraham his father, the Philistines had stopped them, and filled them with earth", the wells had to have the earth dug out, but now the hole was "replenished" with sand again"

    Suffice to say that we have small bits of evidence that COULD point to demons being the spirits of creatures that lived before Genesis 1:2 and have no place to live except the waters that covered the earth. Now, they look for the bodies of men to live in. (A man's body is 70% water.) But since they joined Satan in his pre-Adamic rebellion, they are his subjects and occupy a man to achieve Satan's purposes.

    It is called "circumstantial evidence".

    * Luke 22:3 shows Satan, an angel, entering Judas, but I judge that this was more to do with a provocation of an already Serpentine nature. Here, the Greek word "Satanas" means "the accuser" rather than "the Devil" ("diabolos") and/or a "demon" ("daimonios").

  6. #21
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    Re: Demons

    Yes I believe they are the same as those in the gospel accounts.
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    Any thoughts on these demons origins? are they from another planet or another creation? this creation? were they once angels? Cmon, give me something!
    This can be a dangerous area so I'll ask you this..are you born again?
    How can you pull down strongholds of Satan if you don't even have the strength to turn off your TV?

    ~ Leonard Ravenhill



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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    We have in our Gospel accounts lots demonic activity, I do not want to present my position or even discuss my position, But I've realised I do not understand the position the majority hold on certain key points and until I know and understand peoples positions I cant say I am understanding properly about things.

    So please help me out by presenting your point of view on a couple of things and give me a starting point to work on.

    1. Who are these demons and where did they come from?

    2. In the epistles Jude and Peter wrote, they talk about angels who sinned, but are now in chains, who and where did these come from?

    Please provide some scripture with your answers so I can read and follow along with your thoughts.
    Satan is the head of every demon there is. They are fallen angels who allied with Satan in rebellion against God and were sent out of heaven. They are bodiless spirit beings who ONLY God can destroy completely. Although as Christians, we can curtail their powers against us through prayer (Luke 10:19).

    But make no mistake about it, they exist and they have power. Never fall for the charlatans who either claim demons don't exist or have no power!

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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    Thanks
    Also any thoughts on why and the timing of when they fell?
    The first 34 verses of Genesis tell us when the demons and/or fallen angels fell.

    They tell us that their fall was after the 6th day of creation.

    Scripture tells us that at the end of the 6th day and start of the 7th, all things created by God were completed and all were very good.

    Their fall, had to be some time after that, and before Adam's fall because Satan was already filled with sin by the time of Adam's fall.


    "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    ....(skip day 1-6 details for brevity)

    And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made."

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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by Jude View Post
    This can be a dangerous area so I'll ask you this..are you born again?
    God has cast a fence around men so that angels and demons cannot harm them. To attack Job they had to get permission. But if the man opens himself either willingly or unwillingly, he is fair game for demon possession. It is the Lord's will that we know about demons because casting out demons is a "sign" that should follow Christians. Mark 16:17 says; "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues."

  11. #26
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    The first 34 verses of Genesis tell us when the demons and/or fallen angels fell.

    They tell us that their fall was after the 6th day of creation.

    Scripture tells us that at the end of the 6th day and start of the 7th, all things created by God were completed and all were very good.

    Their fall, had to be some time after that, and before Adam's fall because Satan was already filled with sin by the time of Adam's fall.


    "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    ....(skip day 1-6 details for brevity)

    And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made."
    You could be right. Little is said of the matter. But there are some indicators that show that the fallen angels and demons were around before Adam.

    In Genesis 1:28 it reads, "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth" The duty of SUBDUING the earth indicates that a rebellion was in progress before man was made. He is made for the purpose of "subduing" something that has acting illegally.

    A Second proof of this is that God, in Genesis 2:15, "... took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it." The Hebrew word rendered "dress it" means to "enslave it" or "bring it into servitude". And the Hebrew word rendered "keep it" mean "to put a fence or hedge around it". That means that the Garden of Fellowship was not yet in order and the Serpent was in it because of no fence.

    A Third, as I showed in my posting #20, is that the earth being covered with water and in darkness in Genesis 1:2 is an indication of God's judgement.

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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    The first 34 verses of Genesis tell us when the demons and/or fallen angels fell.

    They tell us that their fall was after the 6th day of creation.

    Scripture tells us that at the end of the 6th day and start of the 7th, all things created by God were completed and all were very good.

    Their fall, had to be some time after that, and before Adam's fall because Satan was already filled with sin by the time of Adam's fall.


    "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    ....(skip day 1-6 details for brevity)

    And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made."
    Hooah!

    Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    As for the timing. Simply I will say that satan was on the earth very soon after creation, otherwise he'd not be able to temp the first two humans. As for specifics of "soon" after, God said the creation was good, so there had to be time between that moment and the time satan temped mankind in the garden.

    A point I have made in the past, not here yet, is we know pride and jealousy are elements revealed in scripture leading to satans desires to be God, to be glorified. Seems the relationship that God had with man, a relationship He did not have with angels is a point of the jealousy. So, by this is seems his fall had to be after the creation of mankind.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

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    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    The first 34 verses of Genesis tell us when the demons and/or fallen angels fell.

    They tell us that their fall was after the 6th day of creation.

    Scripture tells us that at the end of the 6th day and start of the 7th, all things created by God were completed and all were very good.

    Their fall, had to be some time after that, and before Adam's fall because Satan was already filled with sin by the time of Adam's fall.


    "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    ....(skip day 1-6 details for brevity)

    And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made."
    I had not seen this before! I considered it likely that Satan and his angels had fallen *before* the creation of the universe, with them belonging to a different, non-material universe.* But I now think it more likely that Satan and his angels were in fact part of the material creation, since they seem to exist within our universe, albeit as spirit-beings.

    I have to wonder how invisible entities can be part of this material universe? But it is possible that this universe contains parallel dimensions. However, this is well above my "pay grade!"

    So thanks--I'm amending my view, and believe that all of the angels were part of our universe. They were all originally good angels. However, it still remains a question in my mind: When did Satan fall? Was it in the Garden of Eden, or was it before? If you have a good answer for this, I'd like to hear that too!

    *I had also considered it possible that the existence of "darkness" from the beginning of creation implied that Satan had already fallen *before* creation.

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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I had not seen this before! I considered it likely that Satan and his angels had fallen *before* the creation of the universe, with them belonging to a different, non-material universe.* But I now think it more likely that Satan and his angels were in fact part of the material creation, since they seem to exist within our universe, albeit as spirit-beings.

    I have to wonder how invisible entities can be part of this material universe? But it is possible that this universe contains parallel dimensions. However, this is well above my "pay grade!"

    So thanks--I'm amending my view, and believe that all of the angels were part of our universe. They were all originally good angels. However, it still remains a question in my mind: When did Satan fall? Was it in the Garden of Eden, or was it before? If you have a good answer for this, I'd like to hear that too!

    *I had also considered it possible that the existence of "darkness" from the beginning of creation implied that Satan had already fallen *before* creation.
    Not a parallel universe, but the spiritual realm. A good example in scripture is when Jesus is "transfigured" and the disciples with Him get to "see" into the spiritual realm. Or some understand this as the spiritual realm manifesting and in this case since it has to do with sight, materializing.

    As for when was the fall, I agree with Dave... after creation was completed and I believe after the creation of man as well (post #27).
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I had not seen this before! I considered it likely that Satan and his angels had fallen *before* the creation of the universe, with them belonging to a different, non-material universe.* But I now think it more likely that Satan and his angels were in fact part of the material creation, since they seem to exist within our universe, albeit as spirit-beings.

    I have to wonder how invisible entities can be part of this material universe? But it is possible that this universe contains parallel dimensions. However, this is well above my "pay grade!"

    So thanks--I'm amending my view, and believe that all of the angels were part of our universe. They were all originally good angels. However, it still remains a question in my mind: When did Satan fall? Was it in the Garden of Eden, or was it before? If you have a good answer for this, I'd like to hear that too!

    *I had also considered it possible that the existence of "darkness" from the beginning of creation implied that Satan had already fallen *before* creation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Not a parallel universe, but the spiritual realm. A good example in scripture is when Jesus is "transfigured" and the disciples with Him get to "see" into the spiritual realm. Or some understand this as the spiritual realm manifesting and in this case since it has to do with sight, materializing.

    As for when was the fall, I agree with Dave... after creation was completed and I believe after the creation of man as well (post #27).
    Not being able to edit, uugh!

    Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.


    This "spiritual" realm is not a parallel universe. There is only heaven (spiritual realm) and creation.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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