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Thread: Demons

  1. #31
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Not being able to edit, uugh!

    Colossians 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.


    This "spiritual" realm is not a parallel universe. There is only heaven (spiritual realm) and creation.
    Got you. Thanks! Makes sense.

  2. #32

    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The Bible is scanty in information concerning the demons. But there is evidence to be gleaned.

    1. First, the Bible makes a difference between an angel and a demon. Both are spirits, but no angel is recorded as possessing a man*
    2. Next, we must dispense of those angels who are in Tartaroo (2nd Pet.2:4). They are locked up in a subterranean prison while demons still roam the earth. They are those angels that mixed with women at Noah's time and brought forth "giants".
    3. Next, angels inhabit heaven. The fallen angels only lose this habitation 3 years before the end of the age (Rev.12:4). Demons inhabit the sea (Lk.8:33) or bodies.

    This last point might be a pointer at the origin of demons. But since no scripture directly shows their origin, it is speculative. Based on the wording and grammar of Genesis 1:1-2, many Bible scholars believe that the creation of Genesis 1:1 is an accomplished event. The Hebrew sense is that it is a thought and action complete in itself. Then, verse 2, when literally translated, reads; "BUT the earth BECAME a confusion, and empty; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." Not only is verse 2 a new thought, but it shows that something happened to cause chaos. "The earth 'BECAME'" means that it was not like that before. And if we interpret scripture with scripture, we have a DOUBLE witness that God's JUDGMENT is apparent. "DARKNESS" is a sign of judgment as complete darkness covered the daylight whilst Christ was being judged for our sins on the cross. And covering with "WATER" is a sign of God implementing universal judgment like the flood of Noah, and local judgement like Baptism. Suffice to say that, because God is not a God of chaos and emptiness (Isa.45:18), something really did happen to change the arrangement of things.

    How long the earth existed before the judgement of Genesis 1:2, and how long it was covered with water in darkness is not told, but as God restored the earth in six days, He installs a NEW GOVERNOR - Adam. But by a careful study of the whole Bible we see that Satan was once a Governor of the earth and still claims that position after man's fall (Lk.4:6; Jn.12:31, 14:30, 16:11). Added to this, we see Satan accused of causing a chaos and imprisoning his subjects (Isa.14:17). Since this has not happened since Adam, it must have happened BEFORE the chaos of Genesis 1:2. By piecing together the evidence we could say that Satan was governor of the pre-Adamic world, that he drew the earth into his rebellion against God, and that he was a source of chaos and death that dis-inhabited the earth and made it empty.

    If so (and it is an "IF"), then the demons, being disembodied spirits, could be the spirits of those beings who populated the earth before Genesis 1:2. It is implied that if the earth "became" empty, it was once inhabited. The evidence for this is that in Genesis 1:28, "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, ... ." "Replenish" means it was once full and was emptied and must be filled again. This same word in the Hebrew is seen to mean the same in Genesis 9:1 were, after killing all life save eight people, God, "... blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth." It is the same in Genesis 21:19. "And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink." The bottle, a vessel that carried water, had become empty and needed to be "replenished". Again, in Genesis 26:15, "For all the wells which his father's servants had digged in the days of Abraham his father, the Philistines had stopped them, and filled them with earth", the wells had to have the earth dug out, but now the hole was "replenished" with sand again"

    Suffice to say that we have small bits of evidence that COULD point to demons being the spirits of creatures that lived before Genesis 1:2 and have no place to live except the waters that covered the earth. Now, they look for the bodies of men to live in. (A man's body is 70% water.) But since they joined Satan in his pre-Adamic rebellion, they are his subjects and occupy a man to achieve Satan's purposes.

    It is called "circumstantial evidence".

    * Luke 22:3 shows Satan, an angel, entering Judas, but I judge that this was more to do with a provocation of an already Serpentine nature. Here, the Greek word "Satanas" means "the accuser" rather than "the Devil" ("diabolos") and/or a "demon" ("daimonios").
    Thanks Walls

    If I can try to summarise, please feel free to correct.

    You have 3 separate falls.

    The first before this creation between Genesis verse 1 and 2 and these are now demons and are disembodied spirits, they are still on earth after the recreation, and dwell here before and after the flood, and these demons have been active all through mankinds history up until and including the gospel accounts for they are whom is written about here and they are still roaming around now. They like water, and im wondering if during the flood they were rather content?

    The second are angels from Adam to Noahs time who came down from heaven and took wives for themselves from humans and mated with them and bred offspring, and these are now those in the pit, Can I assume the timing that they were cast out of the earth is the same time as the flood? Also am wondering if you think there were two hundred million of them assuming you connect these and the events of the first and second woe of the tribulation where demons are released from the pit?

    The third lot to fall are still future, during the tribulation period, there is a war in heaven and they follow Satan and are cast down to earth. These are one third of the angels in heaven now and become fallen angels.


    * Luke 22:3 shows Satan, an angel, entering Judas, but I judge that this was more to do with a provocation of an already Serpentine nature. Here, the Greek word "Satanas" means "the accuser" rather than "the Devil" ("diabolos") and/or a "demon" ("daimonios").
    In your view Satan does not generally indwell people throughout human history?


    Out of pure curiosity Im wondering how you see or picture all the angels in heaven over the last couple of thousand years.

    Are they in heaven working as Holy angels at the moment, who join in with the other angels when they bow down before and worship the Lord Jesus on His throne, Saying with a loud voice: "Worthy is the lamb, who was slain or have they rebelled already and are in heaven apart?

  3. #33

    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by Saved7 View Post
    Some believe demons are disembodied souls of the "giants" which the same people believe the giants came from fallen angels mating with human women, as it appears to say in Genesis 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saved7 View Post
    Yes I believe they are the same as those in the gospel accounts.
    Sorry this might be a dumb question, Its the giants who are half human and half angels, that are dead from the flood who are now disembodied that are the demons, and not the angels. Can I presume you believe those angels who fathered these giants are those who are now bound as per Jude :6?

    And if so, is it the fallen angels released from the pit in Revelation chapter 9?

  4. #34

    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by Jude View Post
    This can be a dangerous area so I'll ask you this..are you born again?
    I sure am, but how about if we just stick to the bible and its verses then there is no danger whatsoever?

  5. #35

    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    The first 34 verses of Genesis tell us when the demons and/or fallen angels fell.

    They tell us that their fall was after the 6th day of creation.

    Scripture tells us that at the end of the 6th day and start of the 7th, all things created by God were completed and all were very good.

    Their fall, had to be some time after that, and before Adam's fall because Satan was already filled with sin by the time of Adam's fall.


    "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    ....(skip day 1-6 details for brevity)

    And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made."
    Thanks, David, Is the timing here described in Rev 12, what I mean is do you believe this is the third of all angels following Satan and being cast out, And are these fallen angels those demons described in the gospel accounts?

  6. #36

    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Satan is the head of every demon there is. They are fallen angels who allied with Satan in rebellion against God and were sent out of heaven. They are bodiless spirit beings who ONLY God can destroy completely. Although as Christians, we can curtail their powers against us through prayer (Luke 10:19).

    But make no mistake about it, they exist and they have power. Never fall for the charlatans who either claim demons don't exist or have no power!
    Just to clarify do you think Satan is the destroying angel that killed the first born throughout Egypt. I know I said I wasn't going to put forth my view, but imagine if I finally find agreement with someone somewhere on something ;-)

  7. #37
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    I sure am, but how about if we just stick to the bible and its verses then there is no danger whatsoever?
    There most certainly is danger if a person doesn't know Jesus Christ..

    Acts 19:13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.

    14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.

    15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?

    16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

    i was asking for your own safety..
    How can you pull down strongholds of Satan if you don't even have the strength to turn off your TV?

    ~ Leonard Ravenhill



  8. #38
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    Just to clarify do you think Satan is the destroying angel that killed the first born throughout Egypt. I know I said I wasn't going to put forth my view, but imagine if I finally find agreement with someone somewhere on something ;-)
    I know that there was a death angel in the movie "The Ten Commandments". But there is not one in the Bible. Read Exodus 12. This angel of death idea is a Hollywood idea.
    ".....it's your nickel"

  9. #39
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    Thanks Walls

    If I can try to summarise, please feel free to correct.

    You have 3 separate falls.

    The first before this creation between Genesis verse 1 and 2 and these are now demons and are disembodied spirits, they are still on earth after the recreation, and dwell here before and after the flood, and these demons have been active all through mankinds history up until and including the gospel accounts for they are whom is written about here and they are still roaming around now. They like water, and im wondering if during the flood they were rather content?
    I would agree with this in the main. I would just reword some things. For "Recreation" I would use "Restoration". The word "created" ("bara" in the Hebrew) is used only in verse 1 concerning the creation, and concerning making the beasts and man. "Bara" means created out of nothing. In every other case the work that God did in those six days is described by the Hebrew word "asah" which means "to make of existing materials" - like a carpenter makes a table out of existing wood. In Chapter 2 a third word is introduced - "yatsar", which means to "form" like a potter forms clay. So there was only ONE CREATION and after the chaos of verse 2 the only thing made out of nothing was the SOUL of man and beasts. Everything else was already in place and just had to be reorganized.

    And yes, a demon is satisfied with a body, man or beast, is comfortable in water and his agony is a "dry place" (Matt.12:43). At the White Throne in Revelation Chapter 20, the "sea gives up her dead" (v.13). These are the demons (for man goes to Hades wherever he dies). You can see their eternal torment because in the New Earth there is no sea (Rev.21:1)

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    The second are angels from Adam to Noahs time who came down from heaven and took wives for themselves from humans and mated with them and bred offspring, and these are now those in the pit, Can I assume the timing that they were cast out of the earth is the same time as the flood? Also am wondering if you think there were two hundred million of them assuming you connect these and the events of the first and second woe of the tribulation where demons are released from the pit?
    I see this slightly differently. I believe that the fallen angels joined Lucifer in rebellion BEFORE God's restoration and the making of Adam. But I cannot prove it. These angels did not fall because they mated with women during the pre-Flood era. The did it BECAUSE they were fallen. And yes, they are locked up in a dark abyss to await judgement. That does not mean that ALL fallen angels are there. Those that did not "leave their first estate" are still in heaven. See 1st Kings 22:19-22 and Job 1:5 and 2:1.

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    The third lot to fall are still future, during the tribulation period, there is a war in heaven and they follow Satan and are cast down to earth. These are one third of the angels in heaven now and become fallen angels.
    In my estimation these are the fallen angels of before Genesis 1:2. They have been allowed to remain in heaven until they are displaced by the Man-Child. As you might have seen in other postings, I do not subscribe to the general belief that the Man-Child is Jesus. The Woman would then have to Mary and nothing fits Mary. Added to this, the Man-Child is PLURAL. Revelation 12:10-11 joins the Man-Child to the casting out of Satan by Michael. This did not happen when Christ was "caught up". It happens (i) 1260 days before the end of the age, and (ii) when the "brethren who were accused" arrived at the throne. Notice then that in,
    • verse 10 it is "OUR God"
    • verse 10 it is the time when the Kingdom Comes - the end of the age
    • verse 10 Satan accused the brethren day and night because we still sin. He could not accuse Jesus because He was "without sin"
    • verse 11 it is "THEY" - plural
    • verse 11 it is they that OVERCAME by the blood of the Lamb. Jesus did not overcome anything by His blood. His blood was for OTHERS
    • verse 11 it is "THEIR testimony" - plural
    • verse 11 it is "THEY" loved not "THEIR" soul-lives unto death

    So it would seem that Lucifer and his angels, except those that mated with women, remain in heaven till 1260 days before the end of the age when the Kingdom comes.

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    In your view Satan does not generally indwell people throughout human history?
    No. My reason is that although angels are spirit beings, they have bodies and cannot indwell a man. Angels have manna as their food and man can eat it too. Angels always appeared like men and can be entertained like men (Heb.13:2). They took Lot by the hand indicating that they had hands. And finally, to mate with women they had to have sexual organs. A demon is not restricted by a body. He is a spirit only.

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    Out of pure curiosity Im wondering how you see or picture all the angels in heaven over the last couple of thousand years.

    Are they in heaven working as Holy angels at the moment, who join in with the other angels when they bow down before and worship the Lord Jesus on His throne, Saying with a loud voice: "Worthy is the lamb, who was slain or have they rebelled already and are in heaven apart?
    See 1st Kings 22:19-22 and Job 1:5 and 2:1. Just as the good and evil men co-inhabit the earth, so the loyal angels and the fallen angels co-inhabit heaven. The dividing comes at the end of this age. The fallen ones will be cast to earth and in the Millennium we will judge them (1st Cor.6:3). This means that they, and their activities will be seen by men.

    Just one point you might want to consider. Some of the other posters claim that demons are fallen angels. This is not true. Angels dwell in heaven and make excursions to earth. They are the principalities of the "air". Demons live in men, beasts and/or the sea. And in Acts.23:8-9 a DIFFERENCE is made between an angel and a demon. This can be seen in Matthew Chapter 8. Our Lord wanted to cross water to cast out demons. The wind was stirred up by the angels (Eph.2:2) and the water was stirred up by the demons. How do we know? In verse 29 we see that the demons knew He was coming, and in verse 26 our Lord Jesus "REBUKED". "Rebuke" is saved for intelligent creatures in the whole Bible.

  10. #40
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    Just to clarify do you think Satan is the destroying angel that killed the first born throughout Egypt. I know I said I wasn't going to put forth my view, but imagine if I finally find agreement with someone somewhere on something ;-)
    My answer is NO! This is what the scripture says:

    Exodus 12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

    The text didn't say it was Satan, but the Lord. So I would speculate that God sent an angel to do the deed.

  11. #41
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    My answer is NO! This is what the scripture says:

    Exodus 12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

    The text didn't say it was Satan, but the Lord. So I would speculate that God sent an angel to do the deed.
    Earlier in Exodus 12, it says, "For I will pass through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord. Now the blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you are. And when I see the blood, I will pass over you; and the plague shall not be on you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt."

    To me, that's a lot of "I's" for this to be an angel.
    ".....it's your nickel"

  12. #42
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I had not seen this before! I considered it likely that Satan and his angels had fallen *before* the creation of the universe, with them belonging to a different, non-material universe.* But I now think it more likely that Satan and his angels were in fact part of the material creation, since they seem to exist within our universe, albeit as spirit-beings.

    I have to wonder how invisible entities can be part of this material universe? But it is possible that this universe contains parallel dimensions. However, this is well above my "pay grade!"

    So thanks--I'm amending my view, and believe that all of the angels were part of our universe. They were all originally good angels. However, it still remains a question in my mind: When did Satan fall? Was it in the Garden of Eden, or was it before? If you have a good answer for this, I'd like to hear that too!

    *I had also considered it possible that the existence of "darkness" from the beginning of creation implied that Satan had already fallen *before* creation.
    Angels are often called 'the hosts of heaven'.

    Genesis says above that on the 6th day, the creation of all the hosts ofr heaven and earth were finished.

    Pretty straight forward to me.

    To believe otherwise, is looking to go beyond what scripture is clearly providing us.

    The arguments above of subduing the earth, or tending the garden; to me has nothing to do with some speculative rebellion of other prior unmentioned humans or angels or demons; but rather; those things directly mentioned....

    the animals, the plantlife, the work entailed for Adam to get the unrestrained growth of creation he was placed in charge of in order.

    Lions be nice.
    Garden weeding time.
    Hippos don't eat the strawberries.
    etc...

  13. #43
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    Sorry this might be a dumb question, Its the giants who are half human and half angels, that are dead from the flood who are now disembodied that are the demons, and not the angels. Can I presume you believe those angels who fathered these giants are those who are now bound as per Jude :6?

    And if so, is it the fallen angels released from the pit in Revelation chapter 9?
    There are no human angel hybrid creatures in the bible.

    All accounts of Anakims, Nephilims, Emims, or other specualtive words used to denote angel/human hybrids are never called angels or demons or hybrids in scripture.
    Scripture 100% of the time calls them men, people, regular old, (albeit taller and larger than normal) human beings.

    The occult has miscontrued 1 passage in Genesis 6, and far too many otherwise reasonalble christians have jumped on this bandwagon.

    Had God wanted angels and humans to mate; produce offsrping; He would have designed us to do this.

    How it is presented by the occultic; is that it was a devious act of Satan and the wicked angels; nothing to do with God's will.

    People are responsible for their own sins; not bloodlines; not agels or demons; and not occultic mixing myths.

    Goliath was a philistine man; not an angel lakey.
    Anak was a human man; descended from Noah like all post-flood men who built cities were.
    Og was a human man; the king of the Bashan people; no angel hybrids to be found.

  14. #44
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by boangry View Post
    Thanks, David, Is the timing here described in Rev 12, what I mean is do you believe this is the third of all angels following Satan and being cast out, And are these fallen angels those demons described in the gospel accounts?
    Satan fell sometime between the start of the 7th day; and Seth's birth when Adam was 130 years old.

    Scripture doesn't tell us how old Adam was in the garden when he first met Satan; but it was before Seth was born; before Cain and Abel were born; and before Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden and started having children.

    Noone can say for sure, because scripture doesn't tell us when the 1/3 angels fell; but I would think the most likely time they fell; is when Satan fell; in this same post-Day 7; pre-year 130 period before Satan appeared in sin, to Adam and Eve in the garden.

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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    There are no human angel hybrid creatures in the bible.

    All accounts of Anakims, Nephilims, Emims, or other specualtive words used to denote angel/human hybrids are never called angels or demons or hybrids in scripture.
    Scripture 100% of the time calls them men, people, regular old, (albeit taller and larger than normal) human beings.

    The occult has miscontrued 1 passage in Genesis 6, and far too many otherwise reasonalble christians have jumped on this bandwagon.

    Had God wanted angels and humans to mate; produce offsrping; He would have designed us to do this.

    How it is presented by the occultic; is that it was a devious act of Satan and the wicked angels; nothing to do with God's will.

    People are responsible for their own sins; not bloodlines; not agels or demons; and not occultic mixing myths.

    Goliath was a philistine man; not an angel lakey.
    Anak was a human man; descended from Noah like all post-flood men who built cities were.
    Og was a human man; the king of the Bashan people; no angel hybrids to be found.
    Spot on David.......
    A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

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