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Thread: Demons

  1. #46
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    Re: Demons

    Boangry, for your research purposes, I am agreement with Slug1, Jayne and Davids positions.
    A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

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  2. #47
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    There are no human angel hybrid creatures in the bible.

    All accounts of Anakims, Nephilims, Emims, or other specualtive words used to denote angel/human hybrids are never called angels or demons or hybrids in scripture.
    Scripture 100% of the time calls them men, people, regular old, (albeit taller and larger than normal) human beings.

    The occult has miscontrued 1 passage in Genesis 6, and far too many otherwise reasonalble christians have jumped on this bandwagon.

    Had God wanted angels and humans to mate; produce offsrping; He would have designed us to do this.

    How it is presented by the occultic; is that it was a devious act of Satan and the wicked angels; nothing to do with God's will.

    People are responsible for their own sins; not bloodlines; not agels or demons; and not occultic mixing myths.

    Goliath was a philistine man; not an angel lakey.
    Anak was a human man; descended from Noah like all post-flood men who built cities were.
    Og was a human man; the king of the Bashan people; no angel hybrids to be found.
    I think rather that you must explain the "sons of God". In diverse scriptures, especially the Old Testament, they are angels (Job 1:6, 2:1 & 38:7). And then you must explain why they are CONTRASTED to the "daughters of MEN".

    Then, when that is done, you must explain Jude 1:6-7;

    6 "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
    7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."


    The "estate" (principality) which the angels did not keep in verse 6 is defined in verse 7 by "fornication" and "going after strange flesh". It says "in LIKE MANNER". That is, what the angels did was ALSO fornication and going after strange flesh.

  3. #48
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Angels are often called 'the hosts of heaven'.

    Genesis says above that on the 6th day, the creation of all the hosts ofr heaven and earth were finished.

    Pretty straight forward to me.

    To believe otherwise, is looking to go beyond what scripture is clearly providing us.

    The arguments above of subduing the earth, or tending the garden; to me has nothing to do with some speculative rebellion of other prior unmentioned humans or angels or demons; but rather; those things directly mentioned....

    the animals, the plantlife, the work entailed for Adam to get the unrestrained growth of creation he was placed in charge of in order.

    Lions be nice.
    Garden weeding time.
    Hippos don't eat the strawberries.
    etc...
    I guess the idea of darkness existing before the creation may be a kind of poetic indication of non-existence before existence? If there was no evil before creation, then darkness was simply a vacuum void of light. The formless condition of the earth was purely saying, It didn't yet exist?

    I guess I had surmised that Satan was already evil before he tempted Eve. Why would a "good angel" tempt Eve? But that supposes that Satan didn't *become evil* in the act of tempting Eve!

    Regardless of when Satan actually fell, I accept your explanation that the angels were sort of created simultaneous with the stars of heaven. Maybe that's why stars are used as symbols of angels, and also of the saints?

    Likely, the whole creation, as we know it, began in Genesis 1. And Satan fell sometimes afterwards, perhaps in wanting control over Eve? Perhaps before? But we just aren't given more, as I know it.

  4. #49
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I think rather that you must explain the "sons of God". In diverse scriptures, especially the Old Testament, they are angels (Job 1:6, 2:1 & 38:7). And then you must explain why they are CONTRASTED to the "daughters of MEN".

    Then, when that is done, you must explain Jude 1:6-7;

    6 "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
    7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."


    The "estate" (principality) which the angels did not keep in verse 6 is defined in verse 7 by "fornication" and "going after strange flesh". It says "in LIKE MANNER". That is, what the angels did was ALSO fornication and going after strange flesh.
    You answer lies here >>> http://www.refuteit.com/genesis-6.html

    This article pretty much nailed it for me.

    The totality of Scripture need to be factored in...

    I would summarize but its better to read it all, it took me 15 min

    "Seek and you shall find"
    A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

  5. #50
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    There are no human angel hybrid creatures in the bible.

    All accounts of Anakims, Nephilims, Emims, or other specualtive words used to denote angel/human hybrids are never called angels or demons or hybrids in scripture.
    Scripture 100% of the time calls them men, people, regular old, (albeit taller and larger than normal) human beings.

    The occult has miscontrued 1 passage in Genesis 6, and far too many otherwise reasonalble christians have jumped on this bandwagon.

    Had God wanted angels and humans to mate; produce offsrping; He would have designed us to do this.

    How it is presented by the occultic; is that it was a devious act of Satan and the wicked angels; nothing to do with God's will.

    People are responsible for their own sins; not bloodlines; not agels or demons; and not occultic mixing myths.

    Goliath was a philistine man; not an angel lakey.
    Anak was a human man; descended from Noah like all post-flood men who built cities were.
    Og was a human man; the king of the Bashan people; no angel hybrids to be found.
    This is how I've long looked at it. The only question in my mind has been raised by friends who claim that the Book of Enoch, and early Christian tradition, said otherwise.

  6. #51
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Satan fell sometime between the start of the 7th day; and Seth's birth when Adam was 130 years old.

    Scripture doesn't tell us how old Adam was in the garden when he first met Satan; but it was before Seth was born; before Cain and Abel were born; and before Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden and started having children.

    Noone can say for sure, because scripture doesn't tell us when the 1/3 angels fell; but I would think the most likely time they fell; is when Satan fell; in this same post-Day 7; pre-year 130 period before Satan appeared in sin, to Adam and Eve in the garden.
    Again, this is a good point you're making. How can there be this re-creation earlier in the Creation Week if the totality of Creation was declared good on the 6th day?

  7. #52
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    Re: Demons

    Again, not to be repetitious, but some believe there is a difference between "angels" and "demons." I believe, though I'm not sure, that "angels" is a generic term that can include many hierarchies of beings made in the heavens. They simply are not "men." They are not sexual, and do not procreate, nor do they have sexual relations with people, unless there is an occultic involvement when people are mating. This may produce "children of Satan?"

    Demons are simply a term for fallen angels. And the word denotes "gods." Demons pretend to be "gods" to men. As such, they are to be ignored.

  8. #53
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    This is how I've long looked at it. The only question in my mind has been raised by friends who claim that the Book of Enoch, and early Christian tradition, said otherwise.
    Enoch is not scripture and Jewish fable are plenty...

    Titus 1:14 King James Version (KJV)
    14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
    A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

  9. #54
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post

    Just one point you might want to consider. Some of the other posters claim that demons are fallen angels. This is not true. Angels dwell in heaven and make excursions to earth. They are the principalities of the "air". Demons live in men, beasts and/or the sea. And in Acts.23:8-9 a DIFFERENCE is made between an angel and a demon. This can be seen in Matthew Chapter 8. Our Lord wanted to cross water to cast out demons. The wind was stirred up by the angels (Eph.2:2) and the water was stirred up by the demons. How do we know? In verse 29 we see that the demons knew He was coming, and in verse 26 our Lord Jesus "REBUKED". "Rebuke" is saved for intelligent creatures in the whole Bible.
    One way I was thinking is like this , the demons are "ground troops" and the fallen angels are the "air force" . Two different entities . Yes I agree with you .

    boangry if you are keeping score I am on the bandwagon with Walls .

  10. #55
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    Re: Demons

    I think tho we give demons too much weight in our walk with the Lord.

    More weight needs to be put on our responsibility, not the demons.

    The Christian, sealed by the Holy Spirit, has nothing to fear but fear itself.

    Check out The Screw Tape Letters, by CS Lewis. It will open ones mind to a whole world of thought and posssibliity.

    Demons tease, lead, suggest, provoke, encourage .....but do not control the Christian. We have the armour and tools to do what is necessary.

    Question is, are we willing?
    A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

  11. #56
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    You answer lies here >>> http://www.refuteit.com/genesis-6.html

    This article pretty much nailed it for me.

    The totality of Scripture need to be factored in...

    I would summarize but its better to read it all, it took me 15 min

    "Seek and you shall find"
    Thank you for your reply. I perused the article you pointed to. It does not let me select and copy so I will just make two observations about it.

    (1) It claimed that angelic beings were never called "sons of God". Consider this, In Job 1:6, "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them." So also Chapter 2:1. The grammar confirms that Satan was "also" and "among" them. Satan is an angel, therefore the other were too. Added to this, the conference took place in heaven because verse 7 has God asking WHERE he came, indicating that it was from somewhere else, and Satan confirms this by saying "FROM" the earth.

    But if this is not enough the strongest proof lies in Job 38:4-7. There, it is obvious that men were not even created yet when God laid the foundations of the earth. But the "sons of God" rejoiced at God's skill and creativity. "The sons of God" are heavenly beings of which Satan is one of them.

    (2) Next, the article called "the sons of God" men who were "followers of God". But;
    1. A man does not become a "son of God" by following Him. A man becomes a son of God by RECEIVING and BELIEVING IN JESUS and His NAME (Jn.1:12-13)
    2. Adam, in the genealogy of Jesus in Luke Chapter 3 is called "the son of God" and Adam did NOT follow God

    The article is flawed in all its premises.

    There are THREE different "son(s) of God" in the Bible:
    1. Our Lord Jesus is Son of God because the Holy Spirit covered Mary. According to Genesis 1:11-12 everything with Seed in it produces its own kind.
    2. A Christian is a "son of God" by rebirth (Jn.1:12-13). This rebirth is by the Holy Spirit (Jn.3:6)
    3. Adam and the angels are called "sons of God" not because they were born of God by seed, but because they had their origin in God as Creator. Exodus 4:22 shows this clearly. Israel is a "son" to God NOT by BIRTH but because God intervened in a barren woman. But Israel, like Adam, and like the angels are not "sons of God" BY BIRTH, but by having their origin in Him.

    In this light, I think my posting still stands unanswered.

  12. #57
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Again, this is a good point you're making. How can there be this re-creation earlier in the Creation Week if the totality of Creation was declared good on the 6th day?
    Genesis 1:31 reads; "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." The Hebrew word "made" is "asah" and means "to make something out of existing materials". The word "creation" is another word altogether - "Bara" - and means "to make something out of nothing" What God did in six days was NOT the CREATION. It was the recovery and restoration of a a CREATION defiled and polluted by some outside force. Verse 31 above does NOT pertain to the CREATION. It pertains to the RESTORATION. God RESTORED the existing matter from a chaos to pristine and habitable conditions. Much more, it is obvious that if God is not the God of disorder, the catastrophic fall of Satan was even before God judged the earth with darkness and immersion in water.

    And so it is recorded in 2nd Peter 3:4-7.

    4 "And (scoffers) saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
    5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
    6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
    7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."


    If you read verses 5 and 6 carefully you will find the whole sequence;
    1. The earth originally stood OUT of water - the creation of Genesis 1:1
    2. Then the earth stood IN water - the dark immersion of Genesis 1:2
    3. Then came the restoration and the world THAT THEN WAS was overflowed with water and perished - Noah's Flood
    4. The whole context is God's UNIVERSAL JUDGEMENT (v.7)

    That is, there was a polluting and defiling rebellion BEFORE Genesis 1:2 and AGAIN AFTER. Men caused the second one. Who caused the first?

  13. #58
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by hawkman View Post
    One way I was thinking is like this , the demons are "ground troops" and the fallen angels are the "air force" . Two different entities . Yes I agree with you .

    boangry if you are keeping score I am on the bandwagon with Walls .
    Indeed. Maybe "Marine" would have fitted too because the demons are water-born but like to act on men on land

  14. #59
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    I think tho we give demons too much weight in our walk with the Lord.

    More weight needs to be put on our responsibility, not the demons.

    The Christian, sealed by the Holy Spirit, has nothing to fear but fear itself.

    Check out The Screw Tape Letters, by CS Lewis. It will open ones mind to a whole world of thought and posssibliity.

    Demons tease, lead, suggest, provoke, encourage .....but do not control the Christian. We have the armour and tools to do what is necessary.

    Question is, are we willing?
    I agree wholeheartedly. As long as we walk after, and have an intense and loving relationship with our Lord Jesus, we are safe. The Holy Spirit now occupies our human spirits, and He would not let a demon share this "holy of holies". But in my travels I have watched, at a distance, Macumba, or Voodoo, both in Brazil and Africa. There is little doubt about the demon activity, and as I said, keep a distance.

  15. #60
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I think rather that you must explain the "sons of God". In diverse scriptures, especially the Old Testament, they are angels (Job 1:6, 2:1 & 38:7). And then you must explain why they are CONTRASTED to the "daughters of MEN".

    Then, when that is done, you must explain Jude 1:6-7;

    6 "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
    7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."


    The "estate" (principality) which the angels did not keep in verse 6 is defined in verse 7 by "fornication" and "going after strange flesh". It says "in LIKE MANNER". That is, what the angels did was ALSO fornication and going after strange flesh.

    First let's go to Jude.
    Jude does not mention angel, human hybrids. Jude makes no mention of Nephilim. Jude makes no mention of angels and humans mating.

    Jude does mention that angels fell (we already know this); and they will be judged on judgment day for their sins.

    Jude does mention that the people (human beings) of Sodom and Gomorrha will also be judged on judgement day (the in like manner part's real meaning), for their sins of fornication and homosexuality; on judgment day.

    The term sons of god and daughters of men, in context of Genesis 6:4 again, makes no mention of angels; or demons; or cross-bred hybrids.

    Genesis 6:1-8 mentions or infers men, people, daughters, wives, children, 16 times.
    Genesis 6:1-8 mentions angels, demons 0 times.

    The term 'Sons of God' you are forcing to mean angels; when the context doesn't suggest that.
    The writer is distinguishing two types of people in this passage; as 'Sons of God' and 'Daughters of men'.
    We can speculate all day on the types of people these are representing, but nowhere does the Genesis context lead to angels or demons.

    Job is out of context completely with Genesis; and it's use of the phrase is irellevant.

    That would be like using all of the 'son of man' passages in the bible to mean Jesus; when not all of the 'son of man' passages, based on their context of where they are used, mean Jesus.

    Let the myth go Walls, it doesn't benefit anyone to perpetuate these occultic myths.

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