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Thread: Demons

  1. #61
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    Re: Demons

    One other note about context.

    Go look at all of the passages about Nephilim; Anakim; Emims; Og; Goliath; Goliath's brother; etc....that are supposedly passed around by the occult as being angel/human demon-spawn hybrids.

    In the context of all of the passages; they are described men. People. Having families. Building Cities. Waring with other human tribes and peoples.

    Never, not once, are any of them described as being an angel, a demon, a child of an angel or demon; or having any characeristics that are not human (other than abnormal large size).

    Again, the proof is in the context.

  2. #62

    Re: Demons

    If nephilim are not humanoids that were not a by product of angels and the daughters of men then where did they come from according to scripture? Genesis 6 and Jude disagrees with you friend.

  3. #63
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by Repent and Believe View Post
    If nephilim are not humanoids that were not a by product of angels and the daughters of men then where did they come from according to scripture? Genesis 6 and Jude disagrees with you friend.
    Nephilims were just like the Anakims, Emims, Zumims, Horims, Lubims, Nethinims, Gammadims, Chemarims, etc...
    'im' in Hebrew, meant plural.

    Just like if you have 1 cherub; it is a cherub; but if you have multiple cherubs; they are cheribum. No different than 1 dog; and 2 dogs; they use im for plural; English uses s.

    They were human people.

    Genesis 6 tells us over and over, they were men; people; not angels, not demons; not hybrids.

    Jude 6 makes no mention of Giants or angel/human hybrids; only a warning of judgment upon the angels who sinned and fell; and a warning of judgment upon the people of Sodom and Gommorha for their fornication and homosexuality.
    No mention of giant hybrid creatures found in either passage.

  4. #64
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    First let's go to Jude.
    Jude does not mention angel, human hybrids. Jude makes no mention of Nephilim. Jude makes no mention of angels and humans mating.

    Jude does mention that angels fell (we already know this); and they will be judged on judgment day for their sins.

    Jude does mention that the people (human beings) of Sodom and Gomorrha will also be judged on judgement day (the in like manner part's real meaning), for their sins of fornication and homosexuality; on judgment day.

    The term sons of god and daughters of men, in context of Genesis 6:4 again, makes no mention of angels; or demons; or cross-bred hybrids.

    Genesis 6:1-8 mentions or infers men, people, daughters, wives, children, 16 times.
    Genesis 6:1-8 mentions angels, demons 0 times.

    The term 'Sons of God' you are forcing to mean angels; when the context doesn't suggest that.
    The writer is distinguishing two types of people in this passage; as 'Sons of God' and 'Daughters of men'.
    We can speculate all day on the types of people these are representing, but nowhere does the Genesis context lead to angels or demons.

    Job is out of context completely with Genesis; and it's use of the phrase is irellevant.

    That would be like using all of the 'son of man' passages in the bible to mean Jesus; when not all of the 'son of man' passages, based on their context of where they are used, mean Jesus.

    Let the myth go Walls, it doesn't benefit anyone to perpetuate these occultic myths.
    OK. Your point of view is noted. Thanks.

  5. #65
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I agree wholeheartedly. As long as we walk after, and have an intense and loving relationship with our Lord Jesus, we are safe. The Holy Spirit now occupies our human spirits, and He would not let a demon share this "holy of holies". But in my travels I have watched, at a distance, Macumba, or Voodoo, both in Brazil and Africa. There is little doubt about the demon activity, and as I said, keep a distance.
    Agree brother.
    A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

  6. #66
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Genesis 1:31 reads; "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." The Hebrew word "made" is "asah" and means "to make something out of existing materials". The word "creation" is another word altogether - "Bara" - and means "to make something out of nothing" What God did in six days was NOT the CREATION. It was the recovery and restoration of a a CREATION defiled and polluted by some outside force. Verse 31 above does NOT pertain to the CREATION. It pertains to the RESTORATION. God RESTORED the existing matter from a chaos to pristine and habitable conditions. Much more, it is obvious that if God is not the God of disorder, the catastrophic fall of Satan was even before God judged the earth with darkness and immersion in water.

    And so it is recorded in 2nd Peter 3:4-7.

    4 "And (scoffers) saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
    5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
    6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
    7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."


    If you read verses 5 and 6 carefully you will find the whole sequence;
    1. The earth originally stood OUT of water - the creation of Genesis 1:1
    2. Then the earth stood IN water - the dark immersion of Genesis 1:2
    3. Then came the restoration and the world THAT THEN WAS was overflowed with water and perished - Noah's Flood
    4. The whole context is God's UNIVERSAL JUDGEMENT (v.7)

    That is, there was a polluting and defiling rebellion BEFORE Genesis 1:2 and AGAIN AFTER. Men caused the second one. Who caused the first?
    If this was meant to be understood as such, wouldn't there have been more words to the effect? In other words, would it not have been explained as such?

  7. #67
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    If this was meant to be understood as such, wouldn't there have been more words to the effect? In other words, would it not have been explained as such?
    I can't answer for God. But the context of 2nd Peter 3:4-7 is not the fate of previous ages of the earth. It is "scoffers" who deny that there will be a day when the Lord does return and for judgement. Peter points the scoffers, not at a detailed history of the earth, but that universal judgment is inevitable. I personally think that it was very generous of the Lord to give this little bit because the purpose of these floods was to erase, wipe out, what went before*. In both the New Man and the New Heaven and the New Earth we are shown this in that God says;

    ► 2nd Corinthians 5:17; "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

    ► Revelation 21:1-5 ;
    1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    ...
    4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful."


    * It is interesting that scientists, if they are honest, cannot find real proof of civilization beyond 4,500 years. They can find proof of a great flood, but what went before is obscure. I was, some years ago, in Luzern, Switzerland, at the "Glacier Museum". The granite (for the Alps are granite) has been gouged out into deep but polished holes and the whole area is full of sea fossils. This indicates a violent swirling of seawater at 420 meters/1,400 feet above sea level in a land mass far away from the sea. Of course this is nothing when one considers sea fossils on Everest. But actual proof of who inhabited the earth before this is almost impossible to find.

  8. #68
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I can't answer for God. But the context of 2nd Peter 3:4-7 is not the fate of previous ages of the earth. It is "scoffers" who deny that there will be a day when the Lord does return and for judgement. Peter points the scoffers, not at a detailed history of the earth, but that universal judgment is inevitable. I personally think that it was very generous of the Lord to give this little bit because the purpose of these floods was to erase, wipe out, what went before*. In both the New Man and the New Heaven and the New Earth we are shown this in that God says;

    ► 2nd Corinthians 5:17; "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

    ► Revelation 21:1-5 ;
    1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    ...
    4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
    5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful."


    * It is interesting that scientists, if they are honest, cannot find real proof of civilization beyond 4,500 years. They can find proof of a great flood, but what went before is obscure. I was, some years ago, in Luzern, Switzerland, at the "Glacier Museum". The granite (for the Alps are granite) has been gouged out into deep but polished holes and the whole area is full of sea fossils. This indicates a violent swirling of seawater at 420 meters/1,400 feet above sea level in a land mass far away from the sea. Of course this is nothing when one considers sea fossils on Everest. But actual proof of who inhabited the earth before this is almost impossible to find.
    Nobody questions tectonic activity, and the production of mountain ranges. Nobody questions that things were way different in the ancient, ancient past.

    The important point is, *when* does rock dating indicate that these changes took place? Reference to an ancient, ancient condition of the earth, depositing fossils millions of years ago, has nothing to do with the Flood of Noah, and has no bearing on the possibility of ancient civilizations.

    If the Scriptures do not explicitly say so, who are we to concoct our own scenario? It may or may not have happened. We are free to hypothesize, but we are not free to dogmatize. That's my only point. None of this has any bearing in terms of truth-telling. And so I'd rather ignore all the speculation, until such time as science says something different.

  9. #69
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Nobody questions tectonic activity, and the production of mountain ranges. Nobody questions that things were way different in the ancient, ancient past.

    The important point is, *when* does rock dating indicate that these changes took place? Reference to an ancient, ancient condition of the earth, depositing fossils millions of years ago, has nothing to do with the Flood of Noah, and has no bearing on the possibility of ancient civilizations.

    If the Scriptures do not explicitly say so, who are we to concoct our own scenario? It may or may not have happened. We are free to hypothesize, but we are not free to dogmatize. That's my only point. None of this has any bearing in terms of truth-telling. And so I'd rather ignore all the speculation, until such time as science says something different.
    You're telling me I'm the only exception? Because I don't believe tectonic activity for a second and never have.

    Aristarks

  10. #70
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Nobody questions tectonic activity, and the production of mountain ranges. Nobody questions that things were way different in the ancient, ancient past.

    The important point is, *when* does rock dating indicate that these changes took place? Reference to an ancient, ancient condition of the earth, depositing fossils millions of years ago, has nothing to do with the Flood of Noah, and has no bearing on the possibility of ancient civilizations.

    If the Scriptures do not explicitly say so, who are we to concoct our own scenario? It may or may not have happened. We are free to hypothesize, but we are not free to dogmatize. That's my only point. None of this has any bearing in terms of truth-telling. And so I'd rather ignore all the speculation, until such time as science says something different.
    It is not often that we agree, but this time - yes.

  11. #71
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    You're telling me I'm the only exception? Because I don't believe tectonic activity for a second and never have.

    Aristarks
    I only agree with our esteemed brother Randyk on the matter of "dogmatism". I do not discount tectonic activity, but am inclined to agree that the Almighty does not need nature to achieve what man, who was not there in the first place, surmises. The sea fossils on Everest indicate that it was there during the flood. To cover it at its present height is no problem for Jehovah. To cover it with water at DOUBLE its present height is also no problem for Jehovah. To the grand Architect and Creators of the universe, to cover the whole universe with water is but a flick of the finger.

  12. #72
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    You're telling me I'm the only exception? Because I don't believe tectonic activity for a second and never have.

    Aristarks
    Seriously? Sorry, I didn't know!

  13. #73
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    Re: Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by Repent and Believe View Post
    If nephilim are not humanoids that were not a by product of angels and the daughters of men then where did they come from according to scripture? Genesis 6 and Jude disagrees with you friend.
    Let's start with Jude 6.
    Jude 6 doesn't mention Nephilim.
    Jude 6 doesn't mention Giants.
    Jude 6 doesn't mention angel/human mating; or demon/human mating.

    So you citing Jude 6 as a prooftext for angel/human mating, is wrong. There is no support there.

    What does Jude 6 teach?

    1) The angels who did fall; will be judged for their rebellion, on judgment day.
    2) The humans of Sodom and Gommorah; who practiced the human sins of fornication and homosexuality; will be judged for their sins, on judgment day.

    Not interbreeding mentioned. So you should stop attempting to use Jude 6 as a prooftext for Angel/Human hybrids.

    No to the question of where did the Nephilim come from?

    Let's start with the useage of the word.

    Nephilim (H5303) is uses zero times in the NT.
    Nephilim (H5303) is used two times in the OT.

    Let's look at the context of the verses where Nephilim is used.

    Nephilim usage #1) Genesis 6
    6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
    6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
    6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
    6:4 There were [NEPHILIM H5303] in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
    6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
    6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
    6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
    6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
    6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.


    Throughout the passage, over and over, 'men', 'man', 'men multiple', 'men bare children', 'he', 'sons', 'daughters', 'they', 'then', 'men are destroyed', etc...

    All references are to men (whether wicked and targets of God's wrath; or just and fullowing the grace of God: are mentioned.

    In the one verse that mentions the word Nephilim, that very verse calls them men twice.

    No mention of angel/human hybrids.
    No mention of demons.
    No mention of angels.

    Just men; and one obscure verse that differentiates two types of humans into groups (sons of god vs daughters of men).
    Neither of those called angels or demons or hybirds.
    Nephilim is not said to be specific to either of those groups.
    Nephilim (tall men) are only called 'mighty men' and 'men of renown'.

    There is no support in this passage for angel/human mating or hybrids.
    If you do not force and read into the text something that is not there; you cannot find angel/human mating hybrids in this passage.

    Listening to the passage in it's context; throughout you find Men, human beings, people being addressed.




    Nephilim usage #2) Numbers 13

    13:17 And Moses sent them to spy out the land of Canaan, and said unto them, Get you up this way southward, and go up into the mountain:
    13:18 And see the land, what it is, and the people that dwelleth therein, whether they be strong or weak, few or many;
    13:19 And what the land is that they dwell in, whether it be good or bad; and what cities they be that they dwell in, whether in tents, or in strong holds;
    13:20 And what the land is, whether it be fat or lean, whether there be wood therein, or not. And be ye of good courage, and bring of the fruit of the land. Now the time was the time of the firstripe grapes.
    13:21 So they went up, and searched the land from the wilderness of Zin unto Rehob, as men come to Hamath.
    13:22 And they ascended by the south, and came unto Hebron; where Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai, the children of Anak, were. (Now Hebron was built seven years before Zoan in Egypt.)
    13:23 And they came unto the brook of Eshcol, and cut down from thence a branch with one cluster of grapes, and they bare it between two upon a staff; and they brought of the pomegranates, and of the figs.
    13:24 The place was called the brook Eshcol, because of the cluster of grapes which the children of Israel cut down from thence.
    13:25 And they returned from searching of the land after forty days.
    13:26 And they went and came to Moses, and to Aaron, and to all the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the wilderness of Paran, to Kadesh; and brought back word unto them, and unto all the congregation, and shewed them the fruit of the land.
    13:27 And they told him, and said, We came unto the land whither thou sentest us, and surely it floweth with milk and honey; and this is the fruit of it.
    13:28 Nevertheless the people be strong that dwell in the land, and the cities are walled, and very great: and moreover we saw the children of Anak there.
    13:29 The Amalekites dwell in the land of the south: and the Hittites, and the Jebusites, and the Amorites, dwell in the mountains: and the Canaanites dwell by the sea, and by the coast of Jordan.
    13:30 And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.
    13:31 But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we.
    13:32 And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature.
    13:33 And there we saw the giants[NEPHILIM H5303], the sons of Anak, which come of the giants[NEPHILIM H5303]: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight. "



    Again, throughout; we see men and people.
    Moses sent Joshua and Caleb to spy on the people of the land.
    Joshua and Caleb brought back a report of the various tribes and cities of people in the land.

    People from the tribes and cities of Anak, Hebron, Zin, Ahiman, Sheshai, Talmai, Amalek, Hittites, Jebusites, Amorites, Caananites....but all people; all men; include the ones that were 'greater', 'larger', 'great stature'; but all just big, tall men.

    Again, the only other verse of two verses in the bible that mention Nephilim call them men and people.

    No mention of angels.
    No mention of demons.
    No mention of angel/human mating.
    No mention of hybrids.

    When you study the context of scripture; and let the scripture teach you; you can erase occultic or bad teaching.

    Nephilim as a hybrid mythical race of angel/demon/human hybrids is a scripturally unfoundable and untendable topic.

    Nephilim came from men, as men, of large stature.
    Just like Pygmies born in the area of the congo are of short and small stature.
    Men of present day Sudan are of larger and tall stature.

    Height and size is gentic, and can vary for other medical reasons; but has nothing to do with angel/human mating; which is not a possiblity taught in the scriptures.

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