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Thread: For Fenris

  1. #1
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    For Fenris

    Hello friend.
    I hope I'm not making you feel uncomfortable by posting this question publicly. I just didn't want to derail an already detailed thread any further, so I thought I'd start a new one here.

    I'm just curious what you think of this. I used to attend a congregation that was lead by Jews who believe Yeshua is the Messiah. As such, they celebrate all of the Jewish holy days. The appointed feast days.

    They do this not because they are under the law anymore, but because they believe each feast represents something...or rather someOne greater. The Messiah and His works and timing on earth including the fall feasts which represent His return.

    They say many Jews fear losing their roots if they become believers in Yeshua, so this very gentile version of Yeshua that you find in most churches is a problem for the Jewish people. Do you suppose that might be true?

    I'm sure you are wise enough to recognize the holy days in our faith, and I am not Jewish, so I can hardly speak on them beyond the Passover. But do you think that celebrating the feast days or keeping Sabbath or kosher puts these messianic believers back under the law?
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

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    Re: For Fenris

    Quote Originally Posted by Saved7 View Post
    Hello friend.
    Heya!


    I hope I'm not making you feel uncomfortable by posting this question publicly. I just didn't want to derail an already detailed thread any further, so I thought I'd start a new one here.
    No problem whatsoever.

    I'm just curious what you think of this. I used to attend a congregation that was lead by Jews who believe Yeshua is the Messiah. As such, they celebrate all of the Jewish holy days. The appointed feast days.

    They do this not because they are under the law anymore, but because they believe each feast represents something...or rather someOne greater. The Messiah and His works and timing on earth including the fall feasts which represent His return.

    They say many Jews fear losing their roots if they become believers in Yeshua, so this very gentile version of Yeshua that you find in most churches is a problem for the Jewish people. Do you suppose that might be true?
    Ah. So this is a very interesting question. It's more of a meta-topic than you realize, I think. Christians read the bible, and find the obvious truth of the NT and Jesus as the messiah so obvious, that they can't understand why everybody doesn't believe as they do. Especially Jews, because they're already fluent in the bible. So there must be some other reason why Jews won't become Christian. What could it be? You postulate that its because Jews are "afraid to lose their roots". Others here have suggested that Christians have treated Jews poorly (I think that was Luther's opinion as well). Some have accused Jews of being "stiff necked" or "blind" or even worse terms that I won't repeat. I'm going to suggest another reason: Because Jews believe that they're correct. Just as much as Christians do.
    I'm sure you are wise enough to recognize the holy days in our faith, and I am not Jewish, so I can hardly speak on them beyond the Passover. But do you think that celebrating the feast days or keeping Sabbath or kosher puts these messianic believers back under the law?
    You're asking me to rule on Christian theology here, which I have neither the authority nor the knowledge to do. I am sorry.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: For Fenris

    Quote Originally Posted by Saved7 View Post
    … But do you think that celebrating the feast days or keeping Sabbath or kosher puts these messianic believers back under the law?
    Hi Saved, I know this is directed at Fenris but I’ld like to add my opinion if I may.

    I would say it depends on what benefits they believe they get out of it. And perhaps more importantly … what consequences they believe they will incur if they don’t do these things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Because Jews believe that they're correct. Just as much as Christians do.
    I suppose that would make us both equally “stiff-necked”?
    "He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
    C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

    "Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
    "Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

    "But our Hope endures the worst of conditions"
    "It's more than our optimism, Let the earth quake"
    "Our Hope is unchanged"
    "Our Hope Endures" Natalie Grant

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    Re: For Fenris

    Quote Originally Posted by Old man View Post
    I suppose that would make us both equally “stiff-necked”?
    It's not an entirely bad thing. Rabbi Sacks had a great exposition on the subject-


    It is a moment of the very highest drama. The Israelites, a mere 40 days after the greatest revelation in history, have made a golden calf. G-d threatens to destroy them. Moses, exemplifying to the fullest degree the character of Israel as one who “wrestles with G-d and man”, confronts both in turn. To G-d, he prays for mercy. Coming down the mountain and facing Israel, he smashes the tablets, symbol of the covenant. He grinds the calf to dust, mixes it with water, and makes the Israelites drink it. He commands the Levites to punish the wrongdoers. Then he re-ascends the mountain in a further prolonged attempt to re-establish the shattered relationship between G-d and the people.

    G-d allows himself to be entreated. In an extraordinary epiphany, He causes His “glory” to pass by Moses saying, “You will see My back, but My face may not be seen.” He instructs Moses to carve two new tablets of stone, and proclaims his attributes of mercy. At this point, however, Moses makes a strange appeal:

    And Moses hurried and knelt to the ground and bowed, and he said, “If I have found favour in your eyes, my Lord, may my Lord go among us, because [ki] it is a stiff-necked people, and forgive our wickedness and our sin, and take us as your inheritance.”

    The difficulty in the verse is self-evident. Moses cites as a reason for G-d remaining with the Israelites the very attribute that G-d had previously given for wishing to abandon them:

    “I have seen these people,” the LORD said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people. Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.”

    And again:

    “Go up to the land flowing with milk and honey. But I will not go with you, because you are a stiff-necked people and I might destroy you on the way.”

    When the people heard these distressing words, they began to mourn and no-one put on any ornaments. For the LORD had said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites, ‘You are a stiff-necked people. If I were to go with you even for a moment, I might destroy you. Now take off your ornaments and I will decide what to do with you.’ ” So the Israelites stripped off their ornaments at Mount Horeb.

    How can Moses invoke the people’s obstinacy as a reason for G-d to maintain his presence among them? What is the meaning of Moses’ “because” – “may my Lord go among us, because it is a stiff-necked people”?

    The commentators offer a variety of interpretations. Rashi reads the word ki as “if” – “If they are stiff-necked, then forgive them.” Ibn Ezra and Chizkuni read it as “although” or “despite the fact that” (af al pi). Alternatively, suggests Ibn Ezra, the verse might be read, “[I admit that] it is a stiff-necked people – therefore forgive our wickedness and our sin, and take us as your inheritance.” These are straightforward readings, though they assign to the word ki a meaning it does not normally have.

    Ramban takes a different approach:

    This is to be understood in its literal sense. G-d is to go in their midst because they are a stiff-necked people, for now that the Holy One, blessed be He, has become reconciled with them, His presence amongst those who are stiff-necked would be better than that of the angel. For He will want to increase their blessings more, since they are His people and His inheritance . . . At a time of goodwill it is better for them that the Divine glory go with them, because they are a stiff necked people, and He would more readily show grace and mercy upon His servants.

    For Ramban, it is precisely the waywardness of Israel that requires the close attention of a forgiving G-d – like a rebellious child for whom the kindest cure is the attentive concern of a loving parent. Ramban’s comment anticipates the famous and audacious prayer of the Hassidic master Rabbi Levi Yitzhak of Berditchev: “Lord of the universe, I want to propose a deal. We have many sins. You have much forgiveness. Let us exchange our sins for Your forgiveness. And if You should say that this is not a fair exchange, then my reply is: If we had no sins, what would You do with Your forgiveness?”

    There is, however, another and far more striking line of interpretation that can be traced across the centuries. In the twentieth century it was given expression by Rabbi Yitzhak Nissenbaum. The argument he attributed to Moses was this: Almighty G-d, look upon this people with favour, because what is now their greatest vice will one day be their most heroic virtue.

    They are indeed an obstinate people. When they have everything to thank You for, they complain. Mere weeks after hearing Your voice they make a golden calf. But just as now they are stiff-necked in their disobedience, so one day they will be equally stiff-necked in their loyalty. Nations will call on them to assimilate, but they will refuse. Mightier religions will urge them to convert, but they will resist. They will suffer humiliation, persecution, even torture and death because of the name they bear and the faith they profess, but they will stay true to the covenant their ancestors made with You. They will go to their deaths saying Ani maamin, “I believe”. This is a people awesome in its obstinacy – and though now it is their failing, there will be times far into the future when it will be their noblest strength.

    The fact that Rabbi Nissenbaum lived and died in the Warsaw ghetto gives added poignancy to his words.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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