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Thread: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

  1. #151

    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    where you are not getting it, is that the quoted scripture of the body is a vision and the actual temple is the body and the throne of God is the heart of man....The vision is an exact description of the heart and area around the heart....there is nothing said about the blood of goats and Paul is clear on that...Notice what you quoted: "a more PERFECT tent"....The spirit of God is in the heart of man,the very life in you is from God and that is what Johns vision indicated.....Christ's resurrection confirmed that....I'm sorry that you miss the point that is being made

  2. #152

    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    what Paul,John and Christ are all affirming is actually told in the book of Genesis with the creation of Adam.....There is a reason that Christ is called the 2nd Adam....God formed Adam from the ground, with all the minerals,elements,etc that are present in our bodies right now....What gave that body life?.....There is one thing that is present in all things that are alive,will be alive or has ever lived....What is that?....Sure, its DNA....The support structure of life....There is no life without God....Now, Adam was made in Gods own image and likeness, and Eve was taken from him.....A male has an X/Y chromosomal makeup and a woman has a X/X makeup....If God did indeed use himself, or his own esscense for lack of a better term, then Adam, just as the scripture says, was created both male and female (check out your medical books, all babies start out as female)....This may sound like gnosticism, but I sure don't mean it that way....John saw Christ as God in the flesh as decribed in the gospel of John, but he also saw the wonderment of God in the creation of man....The very life of all things originate from God.....I do not understand the Father, except as Christ revealed Him.....Remember the dwelling place of God was in a tabernacle, an alter in a tent...."a more PERFECT tent" and the "son" of a man carries the Father DNA....You can't just spiritualize everything

  3. #153

    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Furthermore, go to the book of Ezekial and notice the difference in the description of the two temples....That temple is the millenial temple and is different and I guess you could take the revelation temple as a metaphor.....I see what you are saying and thinking, but that temple in chapter 11 will be trounden under foot for 42 month....in chapter 21:
    And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
    That is concerning New Jerusalem and is not the same as in chapter 11

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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Which means FUTURE to the time of that persecution.
    It doesn't have to mean that the prophecy can clearly be when the persecution ends.

    No the Beast is NOT present. The 6th king is present, but we are SPECIFICALLY told the Beast was, IS NOT, and will be, which means the Beast is NOT present at the time, but would be FUTURE to the 6th and 7th kings.
    The beast (a demon or apollyon) is present at the time of John's vision but in the abyss locked up but the 6th king (Nero) is on the earth but he is still a part of the beast.

    The beast main purpose is to destroy Babylon the great (Rev 17:16-17) not the church but he still attacks the church through the 6th king. Babylon the great(I believe to be Jerusalem). Then in Revelation chapter 9 apollyon is released from the abyss and sends his army of locus (Rome as described in Joel chapter 2) to attack and eventually destroy Babylon the great. This is why i believe that the beast is then cast into hell in rev 19 after babylon the great is destroyed in rev 18.

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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    What verse states that it starts after John dies?

    Of course prophecy and history are not the I have no idea why you say that as I didn’t say that. But history proves true prophecy
    I believe that the "tribulation" John spoke about is still future, ie the Great Tribulation of Matt 24.

  6. #156
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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I believe that the "tribulation" John spoke about is still future, ie the Great Tribulation of Matt 24.
    The great tribulation is different than wrath of God

    Matthew 24:9-13
    9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved

    The above verses are clearly the persecution of the church which is different than the verses below

    Matthew 24:15-21
    15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

    Now these verses above are for the people of Jerusalem which was different from the verses which I provided

    Revelation 7:9-14
    9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

    “Salvation belongs to our God,
    who sits on the throne,
    and to the Lamb.”

    11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

    “Amen!
    Praise and glory
    and wisdom and thanks and honor
    and power and strength
    be to our God for ever and ever.
    Amen!”

    13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

    14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

    And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    Now the verses above show that the great tribulation is on the saints which stared the day Stephen was killed

    Acts 8:1-3
    On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. 2 Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him. 3 But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison.

    In revelation 7:9 it states that the ones who come out of the great tribulation come from every nation, tribe, people and language,. This shows that it had to start back in the first century and is still happening today as some of those past tribes and nations are now gone and new ones have started since the first century

  7. #157
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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    I'm new here, but I am not new to bible research because I have been chewing on the "meat of scripture" for over 4 decades, and maybe I can sum it up.....This is a great discussion point, and I credit you for bringing it up....Sadly in todays Church enviroment, people are being conditioned not to think for themselves, and are being trained to be good little sheeple and follow a pattern of certain belief systems established just for them, and any questions asked outside of the norm are discouraged....
    There are two temples in scripture, your body and the temple in Jerusalem....The true temple is you and the throne of God is inside:

    Surrounding the throne I saw twenty-four other thrones on which twenty-four elders sat, dressed in white garments and with gold crowns on their heads. 5 From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder. Seven flaming torches burned in front of the throne, which are the seven spirits of God. 6 In front of the throne was something that resembled a sea of glass like crystal. In the center and around the throne, there were four living creatures covered with eyes in front and in back. 7 The first creature resembled a lion, the second was like a calf, the third had a face like that of a human being, and the fourth looked like an eagle in flight. 8 The four living creatures, each of them with six wings, were covered with eyes inside and out. Day and night they do not stop exclaiming: “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God almighty, who was, and who is, and who is to come.”

    Lets examine the above scripture....Pull out your old human anatomy book from high school and compare what it says to the scripture....How many ribs you got?....On the tip of them you got what?....maybe something that looks like a crown....Okay, your heart beat by what operation?...Yeah, electrical impulses or little lightning flashes that create the "kathump, kathump" of the heartbeat and the "whoosh" of rushing waters as the fblood flows through....Ever considered that the liver looks like an eagle with its wings spread?...The lungs are crystaline like glass and have "little eyes" called alveoli....Your heart has 4 chambers and kinda' give the appearance of what?

    Lol, there is your temple and the throne of God and Christ made that very clear....Now, I do think there will be a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem and will be an abomination before God and will be the beginning of the "great tribulation".....There is another option and that concerns all of this genetic engineering going on today.....As farfetched as i may sound, it is possible that the human body. "temple" might be "rebuilt" in a way that is no longer in Gods image....I am convinced genetic engineering and manipulation will play a part in the end time scenerio, maybe not quiite in that fashion, but maybe in an attempt to circumvent death...

    So, I do think a temple will be built because if you notice, it says to leave the courtyard to the gentiles....An awful lot of folks think that the original temple was NOT built on the same site as the islamic abomination of the dome of the rock, but about 600 feet away(memory fails mr, may be closer) and that the wailing wall was actually a roman structure....If that happens to be true,then it would put the dome outside of the immediate temple grounds, but still remain in the "courtyard".....We'll see, I suppose
    Nobody refutes that the real temple now is in our hearts. However, there are yet unfulfilled prophecies that can only come through in a brick and mortar temple. Although you agree with these two concepts, you took a roundabout way to come to the conclusion. But thanks a bunch for throwing in your own tuppence into the bowl.

  8. #158
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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    The great tribulation is different than wrath of God

    Matthew 24:9-13
    9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved

    The above verses are clearly the persecution of the church which is different than the verses below

    Matthew 24:15-21
    15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

    Now these verses above are for the people of Jerusalem which was different from the verses which I provided

    Revelation 7:9-14
    9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

    “Salvation belongs to our God,
    who sits on the throne,
    and to the Lamb.”

    11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

    “Amen!
    Praise and glory
    and wisdom and thanks and honor
    and power and strength
    be to our God for ever and ever.
    Amen!”

    13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

    14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

    And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    Now the verses above show that the great tribulation is on the saints which stared the day Stephen was killed

    Acts 8:1-3
    On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. 2 Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him. 3 But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison.

    In revelation 7:9 it states that the ones who come out of the great tribulation come from every nation, tribe, people and language,. This shows that it had to start back in the first century and is still happening today as some of those past tribes and nations are now gone and new ones have started since the first century
    I never said they are the same. The difference between our positions is that you believe the GT was fulfilled in 70 AD whereas I believe it is in the end times.

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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I never said they are the same. The difference between our positions is that you believe the GT was fulfilled in 70 AD whereas I believe it is in the end times.
    Actually no I don't my last post stated that it is still happening today and will until the end of our time. There are different tribulations

    The great tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:9-13 && Revelation 7:9-14 is the persecution of the saints and is still happening today

    But the tribulation upon Jerusalem mentioned in Matthew 24:15-21 ended in 70AD

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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Actually no I don't my last post stated that it is still happening today and will until the end of our time. There are different tribulations

    The great tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:9-13 && Revelation 7:9-14 is the persecution of the saints and is still happening today

    But the tribulation upon Jerusalem mentioned in Matthew 24:15-21 ended in 70AD

    Yes, I concur.
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    where you are not getting it, is that the quoted scripture of the body is a vision and the actual temple is the body and the throne of God is the heart of man....The vision is an exact description of the heart and area around the heart....there is nothing said about the blood of goats and Paul is clear on that...Notice what you quoted: "a more PERFECT tent"....The spirit of God is in the heart of man,the very life in you is from God and that is what Johns vision indicated.....Christ's resurrection confirmed that....I'm sorry that you miss the point that is being made
    Hence yikes!
    This is not an exact picture of the heart of Man.
    As for the point, the point is that Jesus was able to enter God's presence as a man, and so can we, through His blood.

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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    Furthermore, go to the book of Ezekial and notice the difference in the description of the two temples....That temple is the millenial temple and is different and I guess you could take the revelation temple as a metaphor.....I see what you are saying and thinking, but that temple in chapter 11 will be trounden under foot for 42 month....in chapter 21:
    And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
    That is concerning New Jerusalem and is not the same as in chapter 11
    Is the Ezekiel Temple a Millennial Temple?
    Is it not the Temple which is in the NHNE - the throne of God?
    Chapter 11 though of Rev is not the Millennium or the NHNE and is indeed trodden upon, which means it is NOT a reference to us as a temple.

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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    There are so many ideas expressed here about the temple in Rev 11, that I disagree with, that I wouldn't know where to begin expressing our differences!

    The temple vision is not, in my opinion, a building or a man. It is simply a vision of a temple as a throwback to the OT temple structure. It is an indication of what has happened to OT worship in the NT era. From the Jewish pov, the temple has been overrun with pagan nations. But true worshipers exist in the place symbolized by the temple itself, which is the dwelling place of God. Pagan nations cannot overrun that place.

    This is a reference back to the kind of vision that Ezekiel saw in chs. 40-48, which was not a literal temple either. Rather, it was a vision of what Israel was *supposed to have been doing* in that era, the OT era. It came at a time when the temple had come to the end of its usefulness, and was destroyed, because Israel had not lived up to the terms of the covenant. At that time there were people who still truly served God, just as this vision in Rev 11 portrayed true worshipers in the temple of God.

    At the time of both these temples, the Eze 40 temple and the temple in Rev 11, the true temple was in heaven, and these temples purely symbolized the difference between true worshipers and pagan practices. And so, the temple in Rev 11 was purely symbolic of true worshipers, and of the state of affairs for the Jews, following the collapse of their OT worship system.

    Finally, I would reiterate my belief that the events referred to in the Olivet Discourse are not being properly represented, as I see it. The fall of Jerusalem was the major event being foretold, by Jesus, with the 2nd Coming forming a backdrop.

    But the Great Tribulation Jesus referred to was not exhausted in 70 AD, but continues in the form of Jewish wanderings throughout the NT era, just as we read in Luke 21. The Olivet Discourse was largely about the fate of the Jewish People in the NT era, with a side reference to the survival of Christians among the Jewish People, who represent God's "elect."

    The Great Tribulation is *not* the persecution of the Church by Antichrist. Rather, it is the fate of the majority of Jews in the NT era, who do not embrace Jesus as their Messiah.

    And yet, there is always a remnant, according to Paul, who do convert to Christianity from among the Jews. And in the end, through judgment, the nation will be brought to a full deliverance from international oppression and to a national conversion to Christianity. This is what the OT Prophets foretold in the Age to Come, sometimes referred to as the "Jewish Hope."

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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    The Great Tribulation is *not* the persecution of the Church by Antichrist. Rather, it is the fate of the majority of Jews in the NT era, who do not embrace Jesus as their Messiah.
    Revelation seams to disagree with you

    Rev 7:9-14
    9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:


    “Salvation belongs to our God,
    who sits on the throne,
    and to the Lamb.”

    11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:


    “Amen!
    Praise and glory
    and wisdom and thanks and honor
    and power and strength
    be to our God for ever and ever.
    Amen!”

    13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

    14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

    And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb

    The elder states above that the ones from every nation tribe and tongue

  15. #165
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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    And yet, there is always a remnant, according to Paul, who do convert to Christianity from among the Jews. And in the end, through judgment, the nation will be brought to a full deliverance from international oppression and to a national conversion to Christianity. This is what the OT Prophets foretold in the Age to Come, sometimes referred to as the "Jewish Hope."
    Did Paul teach this or was he a bit missunderstood? I learned this from a friend recently

    I think that it was more about the remnant of Israel that God always has. As shown below He had it in Elijah's day and also in Paul's day

    Romans 11:1-6
    I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”[b] 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

    Romans 11:26-27
    25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved.

    Romans 9:6
    It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

    So what exactly is all Israel?

    As it is written:

    “The deliverer will come from Zion;
    he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

    27
    And this is[f] my covenant with them
    when I take away their sins.”[g]

    The deliverer Jesus comes from Zion (nation Israel) and turns ungodliness away from Jacob(true Israel the remnant of Israel)

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