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Thread: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

  1. #91
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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    In the same chapter, and while talking about the same subject, the Revelation of Christ calls Jerusalem "Sodom and Egypt":

    "And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them,
    and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.
    (Revelation of John 11:7-8)

    So if the "Holy City" that Gentiles are treading underfoot is Jerusalem, why is the same city symbolically called Sodom and Egypt?
    The text provided the answer! It says that the city is symbolically called Sodom and Egypt. Throughout the Bible, Sodom represents (and in some contexts, Babylon too) wickedness, idolatry and everything God despises. And Egypt because of their treatment of the Hebrews under the wicked Pharaoh is not far behind.

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    Why are the two witnesses "clothed in sackcloth"? during the same period?
    I don't think that the raiment of the 2Ws is of any significance. The focus should rather be on their ministry. John the Baptist was also likewise clothed and ate strange food; locusts and honey. Elijah at some point dwelt in caves - God's ways are mysterious and we can't figure it all.

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    I don't actually have an answer to my own questions, so don't hold me to any answers please

    However, I do believe that if a 3rd temple is built in Jerusalem, and animal sacrifices for sins are re-established there, and "the beast that rises from the earth" is the one who gets people to build it (".. and by the signs that it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast it deceives those who dwell on earth, telling them to make an image for the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived. (Revelation 13:14);

    and if they believe this is the Temple of God, and the beast introduces an an international law that all nations take an annual pilgrimage to it (much like the pilgrimage to Mecca today), on order to "fulfil" the prophecy:

    "It shall come to pass in the latter days
    that the mountain of the house of the LORD
    shall be established as the highest of the mountains,
    and shall be lifted up above the hills;
    and all the nations shall flow to it,

    and many peoples shall come, and say:
    Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
    to the house of the God of Jacob,
    that he may teach us his ways
    and that we may walk in his paths.
    For out of Zion shall go the law,
    and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem." (Isaiah 2:2-3)

    Then this 3rd temple will be the image of the beast

    Especially if those in Israel who want the U.N HQ to be shifted to Jerusalem and be restructured to comprise of the representatives of 70 nations (which were dispersed from the Tower of Babel), get their way.

    There are those in Israel who believe that their "Messiah" (not Christ) is going to lay the foundation of the 3rd temple after demolishing the Islamic structures there, and that he will head this new U.N, and usher in the Messianic age of world-wide peace. If 10 rulers are appointed head of the 70, but under this Jewish Messiah, and they give all their power and authority to this "beast from the earth", then you will have the fulfilment of this prophecy.

    I always remember Jesus words to the Jews of His day:

    "I have come in my Father's name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him." (John 5:43).

    There's no question about the fact that many in Israel are waiting for this "Messiah" to build this temple and accomplish these feats.

    If all nations go up to Jerusalem to worship at the 3rd temple where animal sacrifices for sins are taking place, then this will be a great insult to God and to His Christ, and we will have the image of the beast, especially if the penalty for not worshipping at the temple, is death.

    However, if this man then claims to be God, the Jews will evict him faster than he can say the word "fake" - and if the nations regard him as the Messiah and legitimate world leader, that may cause all nations to come against Jerusalem, fulfilling Zechariah 14 when Jesus comes down from heaven with His armies and destroys them, and they see who the real Messiah is.

    Because the only other entity (aside from the two witnesses) in the Revelation that performs miracles and deceived those dwelling on the earth, is this "beast that rises from the earth with all the authority of the first beast", I believe this beast from the earth is the same as "the man of sin", the lawless one of 2 Thess, who too, is destroyed by Christ at His return.

    Of course, that is a massive lot of speculation - but it's possible.

    So which "temple" is it the man of sin going to set himself up in? Well I believe it's the church - because the Greek word naos is used (see my previous post), but when he attempts to seat himself up in the 3rd temple in Jerusalem also, that's when the Jews will evict him faster than he can say the word "fake".

    I do believe the language in Revelation 11 for the temple being measured is a metaphor for the church being measured - but I'm speculating because I don't know the answer. I don't know how wrong or right I could be. Only time will tell, I think.

    Sometimes I think that we try to interpret prophecy "before the time", because some prophecies are only understood either "just at the right time", or after the events have taken place.
    I believe that the 3rd temple will be built to fulfil prophecy, but it will have nothing to do with Christians. It will be for the Jews, but the Beast will desecrate it to fulfil the AoD (Matt 24:15).

  2. #92
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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    How so? Not sure how you reached that conclusion?
    The purpose of revelation is to reveal who Jesus is and what he did He is God and He fulfilled the old covenant and ushered in the new covenant.

    Jesus did away with the temple and sacrificial age and used Rome in her own evil ways to do it.

    Rev 17:16-17
    16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled.

    I see the beast as Rome and mystery Babylon the great as Jerusalem

    Rome also had a 3 1/2 year persecution of the saints under Nero

  3. #93
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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The text provided the answer! It says that the city is symbolically called Sodom and Egypt. Throughout the Bible, Sodom represents (and in some contexts, Babylon too) wickedness, idolatry and everything God despises. And Egypt because of their treatment of the Hebrews under the wicked Pharaoh is not far behind.



    I don't think that the raiment of the 2Ws is of any significance. The focus should rather be on their ministry. John the Baptist was also likewise clothed and ate strange food; locusts and honey. Elijah at some point dwelt in caves - God's ways are mysterious and we can't figure it all.



    I believe that the 3rd temple will be built to fulfil prophecy, but it will have nothing to do with Christians. It will be for the Jews, but the Beast will desecrate it to fulfil the AoD (Matt 24:15).
    Jesus only gave 1 Olivit Discourse and it was told so different people so they would understand it but it had the same meaning

    Matt 24:15-21
    15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

    Luke 21:20-24
    15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

    The above verses show that the AOD was the Roman armies

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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Jesus only gave 1 Olivit Discourse and it was told so different people so they would understand it but it had the same meaning

    Matt 24:15-21
    15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

    Luke 21:20-24
    15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

    The above verses show that the AOD was the Roman armies
    I sure wish that we could edit LOL let’s try this again

    Luke 21:15-21
    20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

  5. #95

    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    The sacrifices in Daniel 9:27 and the association with the holy city in Revelation 11:2 do sound like a 3rd temple will be built in Jerusalem.

    In Daniel 9:27, the covenant is not necessarily related to the sacrifices. Maybe the covenant could be between the little horn and the 10 horns?
    I like to think of the man of sin setting up himself in the temple of God (2 Thessalonians 2:4) as setting up the image of the beast.

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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Jesus only gave 1 Olivit Discourse and it was told so different people so they would understand it but it had the same meaning

    Matt 24:15-21
    15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

    Luke 21:20-24
    15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

    The above verses show that the AOD was the Roman armies
    No they don't.
    You have not put the verses from Luke 21. I note below you did, but then we find a different thing stated.

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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    The sacrifices in Daniel 9:27 and the association with the holy city in Revelation 11:2 do sound like a 3rd temple will be built in Jerusalem.

    In Daniel 9:27, the covenant is not necessarily related to the sacrifices. Maybe the covenant could be between the little horn and the 10 horns?
    I like to think of the man of sin setting up himself in the temple of God (2 Thessalonians 2:4) as setting up the image of the beast.
    The covenant is NOT the OC nor the NC as this covenant is but for 1 week.
    I think it is the original agreement between the 10 kings.
    Then the AC deposes 3 and sets himself up.

  8. #98

    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Literal and it can be a temple without bricks. Jesus works out of the temple in heaven now, we see it not but its true. I base my understanding of this being two nations. They stand before the god of this Earth that god is satan. Jesus is walking sees a fig tree a far off this fig tree represents Israel. It bears no fruit God was not mad at this fig tree. More to come

  9. #99

    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Being that its Nations as I believe it. Then I will go further and say as in the book of Ezekiel when he had laid on his side for judgement of a nation Israel, a day would represent one year as God said. I would use these that I may understand this part of the vision of the months, days, rather years. So far in my study only two places that the dead rise, this is the second time, the dead will rise then the alive will follow is the first time.

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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    I believe that John received the vision in the 60’s
    Incredible. So Apostle John lived over 1000 years then?

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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    The purpose of revelation is to reveal who Jesus is and what he did He is God and He fulfilled the old covenant and ushered in the new covenant.

    Jesus did away with the temple and sacrificial age and used Rome in her own evil ways to do it.

    Rev 17:16-17
    16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled.

    I see the beast as Rome and mystery Babylon the great as Jerusalem

    Rome also had a 3 1/2 year persecution of the saints under Nero
    Jesus revealed who is at the Transfiguration. He didn't have to reveal himself again after his death which was when John saw the visions in Revelation.

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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Jesus only gave 1 Olivit Discourse and it was told so different people so they would understand it but it had the same meaning

    Matt 24:15-21
    15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

    Luke 21:20-24
    15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

    The above verses show that the AOD was the Roman armies
    You are not the first to present the Romans as the AoD. It's a moot topic, and for me, I believe it will be fulfilled in the time of the Antichrist.

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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    I sure wish that we could edit LOL let’s try this again

    Luke 21:15-21
    20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
    Noted. Those who share your position invariably rely on these texts...

  14. #104
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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    The sacrifices in Daniel 9:27 and the association with the holy city in Revelation 11:2 do sound like a 3rd temple will be built in Jerusalem.

    In Daniel 9:27, the covenant is not necessarily related to the sacrifices. Maybe the covenant could be between the little horn and the 10 horns?
    I like to think of the man of sin setting up himself in the temple of God (2 Thessalonians 2:4) as setting up the image of the beast.
    I concur that 2 Thess 2:4 and Dan 9:27 definitely require a physical temple to be fulfilled.

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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The covenant is NOT the OC nor the NC as this covenant is but for 1 week.
    I think it is the original agreement between the 10 kings.
    Then the AC deposes 3 and sets himself up.
    Yeah, I reckon it'll work along as you stated...

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