Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

[Trivalee]

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

The timeline (42 months) that John was told the Gentiles will tread the holy city and the temple underfoot is most significant as it coincides with the time of the Beast, vide; Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

I have no doubt that we are all familiar with the above texts. So in conjunction with 2 Thess 2:4, isn't this the irrefutable proof that finally puts to bed the discussion whether a brick and mortar temple will be built prior to the coming of the Antichrist?

Although, some hold the view that the temple mentioned in Rev 11:1-2 is symbolic, what's your opinion?

[ForHisglory]

Rev 11:1 [FONT="]And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.[/FONT]Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

The timeline (42 months) that John was told the Gentiles will tread the holy city and the temple underfoot is most significant as it coincides with the time of the Beast, vide; Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

I have no doubt that we are all familiar with the above texts. So in conjunction with 2 Thess 2:4, isn't this the irrefutable proof that finally puts to bed the discussion whether a brick and mortar temple will be built prior to the coming of the Antichrist?

Although, some hold the view that the temple mentioned in Rev 11:1-2 is symbolic, what's your opinion?

Clearly a connection with Ezekiel's prophecy, and the language is also very literal.
You need a measuring reed.
There is a building AND worshippers.
It is found in Jerusalem.
The outer courts are being trampled by the Gentiles, but not the inner.

[ross3421]

I think we also can say it is Mystery Babylon of Rev 17.


Look at the characteristics of the earthly woman ... what city is/was/will be dressed like this? Sure looks like another woman.

Rev 17
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls,
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.


Just to note a parallel.....Is not Mystery Babylon in Rev 17 the city whereby Satan tempts Jesus. Satan in God's face showing him when in the future he will be committing fornication with HIS woman.

4 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.


Question will this city trampled by gentiles be man made or is it possible this city is NOT man made.....and comes down from "heaven" Rev 12 prior to the 42 months and then trampled by Gentiles?

[Trivalee]

Agree with all posts so far.........but what city is it?

I think we also can say it is Mystery Babylon of Rev 17.

Look at the characteristics of the earthly woman ... what city is/was/will be dressed like this? Sure looks like another woman.

Rev 17
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls,
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Just to note a parallel.....Is not Mystery Babylon in Rev 17 the city whereby Satan tempts Jesus. Satan in God's face showing him when in the future he will be committing fornication with HIS woman.

4 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Question will this city trampled by gentiles be man made or is it possible this city is NOT man made.....and comes down from "heaven" Rev 12 prior to the 42 months and then trampled by Gentiles?

Mystery Babylon is not a literal city. The temple is said to be in the "holy city" and only Jerusalem has ever been called a holy city in the Bible.

[ross3421]

Mystery Babylon is not a literal city

Huh?????
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

The temple is said to be in the "holy city" and only Jerusalem has ever been called a holy city in the Bible.

Mystery Babylon is Jerusalem. Howbeit one not made with hands. So a literal city but not brick and mortar.

[ForHisglory]

Huh?????
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Mystery Babylon in the guise of a woman is NOT a literal city. She is a symbol for the city.
A little like in algebra you have x.
So x + 2 = 3
Then we know x = 1.
The reason for the symbol though is to teach something more.

Mystery Babylon is Jerusalem. Howbeit one not made with hands.

However MB is NOT Jerusalem.

[ross3421]

Mystery Babylon in the guise of a woman is NOT a literal city. She is a symbol for the city.

What is it then?

Not sure where you guys learn this stuff.....it's mind boggling. Is this what they teach in seminary?

The reason for the symbol though is to teach something more.

Ok...like what in your opinion.

However MB is NOT Jerusalem.

What is it then?

[ForHisglory]

What is it then?
Not sure where you guys learn this stuff.....it's mind boggling. Is this what they teach in seminary?

No, it is pretty basic reasoning.
A woman is NOT a city, as a city is LITERALLY made of buildings and streets and other things, in which people live, where as a woman is simply a person who is female.

All sorts of things though can be taught in seminary

Ok...like what in your opinion.

We are told many things about her, which are NOT specific to being a city - for example a city doesn't kill the prophets, it is people in a city who do that. So she may be representative of the spirit of the city. Just as a simple example.

What is it then?

It is a great city we are told, and one which sits on many waters.
Rev 17:1* Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters,

Jerusalem is NOT situated on many waters, nor is Rome.
So this calls into question what he many waters mean.

[Revelation Man]

Rev 11:1 [FONT="]And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.[/FONT][FONT="]Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

The timeline (42 months) that John was told the Gentiles will tread the holy city and the temple underfoot is most significant as it coincides with the time of the Beast, vide; Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

I have no doubt that we are all familiar with the above texts. So in conjunction with 2 Thess 2:4, isn't this the irrefutable proof that finally puts to bed the discussion whether a brick and mortar temple will be built prior to the coming of the Antichrist?

Although, some hold the view that the temple mentioned in Rev 11:1-2 is symbolic, what's your opinion?

[/FONT]

There will be a Temple more than likely, Matthew 24:15-16, etc. But Rev. 11 is clearly Metaphoric in nature IMHO.

That being Measured is not the Temples size per se, but the Measurement of Judgment that is coming to those that do not serve God !!

From G3358; to measure (that is, ascertain in size by a fixed standard); by implication to admeasure (that is, allot by rule); figuratively to estimate:—measure, mete.
—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)

Admeasure definition: to measure out (land, etc) as a share; apportion | Meaning, pronunciation, translations and examples.

Rev. 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Basically the angel is telling us what the Two-witnesses are going to do, REMEMBER, chapter 11 is all about the Two-witnesses Ministry. Jesus is telling John his apportionment plans for everyone. This is basically Jesus telling John he's going to take measure of those who SERVE HIM (at the Altar) and alot their judgment via protection in Petra and He's going to Measure those Gentile's that come not to the Altar of Repentance but instead trample over/Beast over Jerusalem, and alot their Judgment via the Plagues of God as called down by the Two-witnesses. (Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments)

Rev. 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

So God is MEASURING between His people and the Wicked Gentiles in order to measure out His apportionment of Judgment as He sees fit, and it's going to be delivered by the prayers of the Two-witnesses.

That is my take.

[Revelation Man]

What is it then?

Not sure where you guys learn this stuff.....it's mind boggling. Is this what they teach in seminary?



Ok...like what in your opinion.



What is it then?

We are told exactly what God sees Babylon as.......it's never called Mystery Babylon, it's Mystery, COMMA, Babylon, Mother of Harlots, Abominations of the earth.

These FOUR DESCRIPTIONS describe All False Religion.........It was a Mystery Religion.....it was born in/at its Zenith on Babylon......All Mystery Religions were BIRTH there thus the Mother of Harlot designation.............And of course serving false gods is an Abomination unto God.

Babylon the City, referred to, is one of the Four Descriptions of the Harlot. But Rev. 16:19 tells us what it is also.

Rev. 16:19 And the great city (Jerusalem/Earthquake on Mt. Zion) was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: (Babylon Falls) and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

So Jesus lands on Mt Zion, Splits it into, then DEFEATS these Cities/Nations that come against Him at Armageddon. God says he sees them as Babylon the Great !! And gives them the fierceness of His Wrath. So WHO ARE THEY ? Who does God see as Babylon ? This should be easy, let's look at Vial #6.

Rev. 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

So we have the E.U. Beast (goes without saying) who I say is born in Greece, and Greece is a part of the E.U. as is Rome (So Rome and Greece). Then we have the Kings of the East (Iran and Iraq) which I think represents Babylon and Persia, NOT China. And then finally we get the last piece of the puzzle that tells us who Babylon is in God's Eyes and thus the Head of Gold equals Babylon.

We see that the Kings of ALL THE EARTH are enticed to gather at Armageddon to do battle with God !!

So who is Babylon ? THE WHOLE WORLD !! Satan's Dark Kingdom on this earth is going to FALL !! Amen. Jesus takes over, Satan is bound for 1000 years.

[ross3421]

[QUOTE]

It is a great city we are told, and one which sits on many waters.
Rev 17:1* Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who is seated on many waters,

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.


So are the "waters" bodies of water or bodies of people?

Jerusalem is NOT situated on many waters, nor is Rome.
So this calls into question what he many waters mean.

This city is not any city currently on earth.

[Walls]

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

The timeline (42 months) that John was told the Gentiles will tread the holy city and the temple underfoot is most significant as it coincides with the time of the Beast, vide; Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

I have no doubt that we are all familiar with the above texts. So in conjunction with 2 Thess 2:4, isn't this the irrefutable proof that finally puts to bed the discussion whether a brick and mortar temple will be built prior to the coming of the Antichrist?

Although, some hold the view that the temple mentioned in Rev 11:1-2 is symbolic, what's your opinion?

Besides your proofs there is another in Daniel Chapter 9. But to understand that one must go back to Deuteronomy Chapter 28. In it are all the curses of the Law if broken. The last and saddest is that Israel will be ejected from their Land and dispersed among all the nations (vs.63-66). But, as in most prophets, hope is set forth just a two Chapters later. Deuteronomy Chapter 30 sets forth the conditions for God to restore Israel and gather her back to her Land. The condition found in verses 1-5 is that Israelites turn back, with all their heart and mind, to what Moses was expounding "THAT DAY". Now, on "THAT DAY" Moses was expounding the Law.

The Temple is an integral part of keeping the Law (Deuteronomy 12:5, 11, 12:21, 14:23-24, 16:6, 11, 26:2). Without it, the Covenant of Law cannot be kept. Now, in Daniel 9:27 it says;

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

1. "He" according to the grammar is that future prince of the Romans that shall come when the seventieth Seven starts
2. "confirm" means "strengthen" in the Hebrew
3. "THE Covenant" has an article. It is therefore a Covenant already in place but which is weak. Which Covenant it is is confirmed by the "sacrifice and oblation". It is the Covenant of Law from Moses

God needs Israelites to go back to the Law to fulfill Deuteronomy 30:1-5. Israelites need a Temple to do this. The Temple of Revelation 11 is a literal Temple with a literal altar (v.1).

For those who would pass it off as an allegorical effigy,

• When has an altar been allegorical?
• Gentiles which trample the outer court are literal. When have the Gentiles ever been allegorical?
• Or when has the "outer court" been allegorical?
• And so we go on ...
• until verse 8 and then the matter whether it is physical or allegorical is settled forever. Our Lord was crucified where this Temple is erected

If the context is literal then the Temple is literal.

[TheDivineWatermark]

[*]"THE Covenant" has an article. It is therefore a Covenant already in place but which is weak.

I've read differing views on this. Some say the definite article ('the') is there; others say it isn't.

In this source, it isn't there: https://biblehub.com/text/daniel/9-27.htm

(but... the next word "with many," some say does have the definite article included in the Hebrew term, so "with THE many" but which isn't reflected in the Bible Hub source here).

[marty fox]

Rev 11:1 [FONT="]And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.[/FONT]Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

The timeline (42 months) that John was told the Gentiles will tread the holy city and the temple underfoot is most significant as it coincides with the time of the Beast, vide; Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

I have no doubt that we are all familiar with the above texts. So in conjunction with 2 Thess 2:4, isn't this the irrefutable proof that finally puts to bed the discussion whether a brick and mortar temple will be built prior to the coming of the Antichrist?

Although, some hold the view that the temple mentioned in Rev 11:1-2 is symbolic, what's your opinion?

I believe that it was the literal temple before it fell in 70AD.

I see the temple in 2 Thess 2 as the church

A future temple would put walls up between God and man

[marty fox]

Huh?????
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.




Mystery Babylon is Jerusalem. Howbeit one not made with hands. So a literal city but not brick and mortar.

You are right here on who she is