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Thread: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

  1. #181
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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Just for clarification do you see that there is a great tribulation on the saints but also a different tribulation on the earth from God?
    Yes. The Beast will orchestrate the tribulation against the saints while God will pour his wrath on the wicked.

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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Now let me get this straight. After accepting that I'm referring to Rev 11 as a *symbolic* temple you ask me how this applies during the 42 months to a *literal* temple? Obviously, if I see Rev 11 as a *symbolic temple* I still see it as a symbolic temple in the 42 months of Antichrist's reign!

    Here's how I explain it as a purely *symbolic* vision. Rev 11 is a picture, using the OT temple, to separate true worshipers in Christ from false Jewish worshipers who remain in Judaism. The nations who trample upon the Jewish temple are only trampling upon false Jewish worship in the symbolic "outer court," and not upon the true Christian worship in the inner court. That's why the nations are depicted as trampling upon the outer court, and not upon the temple itself.

    In the NT era, the "holy place" does not consist of the OT temple, but rather, of the place where that temple stood, among the people of Israel and among the nations. The true temple is God's people, the Church.
    You confuse me. How can it be *symbolic* when John was told to leave out the court outside that the Gentiles will tread upon it for 42 months? If indeed it is merely symbolic then the Gentiles treading it for 42 months will be fairies, do you agree? Further, you said that the nations will trample upon false Jewish worship in the symbolic outer court. To bring it down to the literal, how can the city and Judaism be trampled upon?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    1) Jesus spoke primarily, in the Olivet Discourse, of the fall of Jerusalem. All 3 versions of the Olivet Discourse begin with Jesus' declaration that the temple would be destroyed, stone by stone. This included the destruction of the city of Jerusalem, where the temple was located.

    2) Jesus identified, in Luke 21, the "Great Tribulation" as a Jewish tribulation--a punishment from God against the majority of Jews who rejected their Messiah.

    I would think you agree with these 2 points?
    We have been debating the OD for 3 years or more without reaching compromise. It has become one of our favourite past times. I don't believe this will be any different here.

  3. #183
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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You confuse me. How can it be *symbolic* when John was told to leave out the court outside that the Gentiles will tread upon it for 42 months? If indeed it is merely symbolic then the Gentiles treading it for 42 months will be fairies, do you agree? Further, you said that the nations will trample upon false Jewish worship in the symbolic outer court. To bring it down to the literal, how can the city and Judaism be trampled upon?
    If the temple was, at this time, destroyed, as most think it was, then the temple no longer existed to be literally trampled upon! So indulge me as I try to translate this language of the temple into symbols?

    The temple represents, symbolically, Israel's state of affairs following their rejection of Christ. Relative few are able to worship God through Christianity. The few Jews who worship within this symbolic "temple" are Christians.

    The outer court represents the area to which the majority of Jews have been relegated, due to their rejection of Christianity. Therefore, the nations run roughshod over the Jews, who have lost their national blessing. This is symbolized by the nations trampling upon the outer court.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    We have been debating the OD for 3 years or more without reaching compromise. It has become one of our favourite past times. I don't believe this will be any different here.
    I'm glad you have a sense of humor. "If at 1st you don't succeed, try, try again!"

  4. #184
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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You confuse me. How can it be *symbolic* when John was told to leave out the court outside that the Gentiles will tread upon it for 42 months? If indeed it is merely symbolic then the Gentiles treading it for 42 months will be fairies, do you agree? Further, you said that the nations will trample upon false Jewish worship in the symbolic outer court. To bring it down to the literal, how can the city and Judaism be trampled upon?
    If the temple was, at this time, destroyed, as most think it was, then the temple no longer existed to be literally trampled upon! So indulge me as I try to translate this language of the temple into symbols?

    The temple represents, symbolically, Israel's state of affairs following their rejection of Christ. Relative few are able to worship God through Christianity. The few Jews who worship within this symbolic "temple" are Christians.

    The outer court represents the area to which the majority of Jews have been relegated, due to their rejection of Christianity. Therefore, the nations run roughshod over the Jews, who have lost their national blessing. This is symbolized by the nations trampling upon the outer court.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee
    We have been debating the OD for 3 years or more without reaching compromise. It has become one of our favourite past times. I don't believe this will be any different here.
    I'm glad you have a sense of humor. "If at 1st you don't succeed, try, try again!"

  5. #185
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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    So you're saying that God has to destroy all non-Christians by the time of Christ's return? I see no basis for such a claim, unless you are Amillennial.

    You deny that a nation can, en masse, support a national Law of God? That's precisely what Israel did under Moses and under Joshua. I'm not saying that were able to establish 100% success in practicing this, as a practical matter. But the notion that an entire nation can subscribe to a Christian Constitution is obviously untrue.

    If, on the other hand, you wish nations *not* to subscribe to a nonChristian Constitution, what would you prefer: a Muslim Constitution? To think that God wants neither is even more unreasonable, since God has established government for the very purpose of preserving order. The Bible indicates this was even true under the Roman government in Paul's time!

    Obviously, there is a big difference between a nation subscribing, as a whole, to a Christian Constitution, and a nation fully practicing Christianity as prescribed by that Constitution! I'm saying that Israel will, in the future, subscribe to a Christian Constitution, even though the Jews will not perfectly conform to it.

    Fulfillment of the prophecy requires only that the nation convert to Christianity and be delivered from international persecution. This is a religious conversion plus a political deliverance. It all happens at Christ's 2nd Coming, which obviously is different than anything that happened hundreds of years ago!
    I didn't mean that all non-Christians will be destroyed when Jesus returns. If my remarks came across as such then I take it back.

    The way I see, the concept of salvation and eternal life in Christ is first, an individual affair. It is when the individuals who believe become the majority that a Christian nation and Law can be established. And I still believe that Isaiah's prophecy about "a remnant" being saved out of the multitude of Israel, will yet still apply in their end-time redemption.

    Only God's Law with Jesus ruling in righteousness will prevail when he returns. I'm not sure whether you are suggesting a scenario where Israel abandons Judaism to become a Christian nation BEFORE Jesus returns? If this is your position, then I should remind you that when this happens they won't have much time before fleeing into the desert for succour. The next time they set foot in Jerusalem Jesus will be ruling in the MK. Surely you don't disagree with this?

    So you see, the Christian nation and constitution you advocate are impractical.

    But as your last paragraph suggests, if your vision for Israel's Christian identity is when Jesus returns then there's no basis to refer to them as a distinct people-group. As pointed out, being saved and in Christ makes ALL in his body, one.

  6. #186
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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    If the temple was, at this time, destroyed, as most think it was, then the temple no longer existed to be literally trampled upon! So indulge me as I try to translate this language of the temple into symbols?

    The temple represents, symbolically, Israel's state of affairs following their rejection of Christ. Relative few are able to worship God through Christianity. The few Jews who worship within this symbolic "temple" are Christians.

    The outer court represents the area to which the majority of Jews have been relegated, due to their rejection of Christianity. Therefore, the nations run roughshod over the Jews, who have lost their national blessing. This is symbolized by the nations trampling upon the outer court.
    You may be right. My take is that the passage refers to the rebuilt temple where the AC will show himself off as God. In this case, I see it as a physical structure rather than symbolic.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm glad you have a sense of humor. "If at 1st you don't succeed, try, try again!"
    Very true. We'll keep trying until when the Holy Spirit is tired of us, he'll step in and reveal the true account to us in a way no one will doubt. FHG included.

  7. #187
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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I didn't mean that all non-Christians will be destroyed when Jesus returns. If my remarks came across as such then I take it back.

    The way I see, the concept of salvation and eternal life in Christ is first, an individual affair. It is when the individuals who believe become the majority that a Christian nation and Law can be established. And I still believe that Isaiah's prophecy about "a remnant" being saved out of the multitude of Israel, will yet still apply in their end-time redemption.

    Only God's Law with Jesus ruling in righteousness will prevail when he returns. I'm not sure whether you are suggesting a scenario where Israel abandons Judaism to become a Christian nation BEFORE Jesus returns? If this is your position, then I should remind you that when this happens they won't have much time before fleeing into the desert for succour. The next time they set foot in Jerusalem Jesus will be ruling in the MK. Surely you don't disagree with this?

    So you see, the Christian nation and constitution you advocate are impractical.

    But as your last paragraph suggests, if your vision for Israel's Christian identity is when Jesus returns then there's no basis to refer to them as a distinct people-group. As pointed out, being saved and in Christ makes ALL in his body, one.
    This just goes to show how many times we must exchange ideas before I really understand your position! I didn't at all know this was your position! You seem to have a normal premillennial position up until Christ's Kingdom begins. Then you tend to have a non-dispensational view in which Israel disappears as a nation into the Church? Either that or Israel remains a distinct nation in the Millennium whereas Messianic Jews separate and blend in with Christianity? You really need to explain your views on this to me!

    As to my own views, I don't believe Israel becomes a Christian nation until after Jesus comes. I think that in the present age Israel remains a non-Christian entity with only a small remnant of Jews converting to Christianity throughout the age. Then, when Christ returns many nonChristian Jews will die under judgment, while Jewish believers will die under persecution. The net result will be that Israel will limp into the Millennial Age, having suffered serious casualties, and yet in a position for unbelieving Jews to repent and embrace Jesus at his coming.

    As for the notion of Israel "fleeing into the desert," seen in Rev 12, I don't see this as anything more than a symbolic escape from evil, such as when Israel escaped Egypt during the exodus. As we read, the Woman escapes in the desert "into her place," which I believe is Israel. So she is not really leaving Israel.

    It is possible, I suppose, that the Woman represents Christian believers in Israel who escape to a place prepared in the desert, just as believers fled to Pella in the 1st century? But if we see this as purely symbolic, we would see that Israel is a state located in the desert of the Middle East, protected from hostile neighbors. See Zech 14. To be honest, I'm not completely clear on this, and I'm not in the least dogmatic in my opinions on this.

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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Yes. The Beast will orchestrate the tribulation against the saints while God will pour his wrath on the wicked.
    Yes but the persecution of the saints isn’t complete from the beast as it’s been happening since the day Stephen was killed as they are from every nation

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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Yes but the persecution of the saints isn’t complete from the beast as it’s been happening since the day Stephen was killed as they are from every nation
    Huh?
    Don't confuse persecution and Great Tribulation.

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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    If the temple was, at this time, destroyed, as most think it was, then the temple no longer existed to be literally trampled upon!
    Poor reasoning.
    If the temple was still standing then how would you trample on it?
    The picture given is that where the Temple was, then it could be trampled, as we are told y Jesus concerning this:
    Luk 21:24* They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

    Notice here Jerusalem was being trampled, though as Jerusalem it no longer existed. However the place did and was under Gentile control.
    Now in Revelation we have a PORTION of the Temple, that is the Outer Courts ONLY which are being trampled, which points to the INNER courts NOT being trampled and therefore remaining.

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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Huh?
    Don't confuse persecution and Great Tribulation.
    Why would you say that like jesus says “have you not read the scriptures?”

    Revelation 7:13-14
    13 Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

    14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

    And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Poor reasoning.
    If the temple was still standing then how would you trample on it?
    You trample upon a literal temple by "standing in the holy place!" This amounts to a desecration of the temple area when pagan nations usurp Israel's place of worship by maintaining control over Jerusalem. Today we see the Dome of the Rock standing on the old temple site, and protected by the nations of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    The picture given is that where the Temple was, then it could be trampled, as we are told y Jesus concerning this:
    Luk 21:24* They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
    That's sort of what I was arguing, that the temple being gone it was the territory of Israel, along with the Jews, who were now being trampled upon.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory
    Notice here Jerusalem was being trampled, though as Jerusalem it no longer existed. However the place did and was under Gentile control.
    Now in Revelation we have a PORTION of the Temple, that is the Outer Courts ONLY which are being trampled, which points to the INNER courts NOT being trampled and therefore remaining.
    My basis is Luke 21, where Jesus indicated Jerusalem would be trampled...

    Luke 21.24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

    Israel remains in its pre-Kingdom form throughout the NT era until Christ comes. Then Israel will be restored. This is symbolized by the nations running amok over Israel in the courtyard of the temple, whereas the temple represents true Jewish believers who continue to worship in God's heavenly temple.

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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    This just goes to show how many times we must exchange ideas before I really understand your position! I didn't at all know this was your position! You seem to have a normal premillennial position up until Christ's Kingdom begins. Then you tend to have a non-dispensational view in which Israel disappears as a nation into the Church? Either that or Israel remains a distinct nation in the Millennium whereas Messianic Jews separate and blend in with Christianity? You really need to explain your views on this to me!
    Yes, my position is that in the MK, Israel, as part of the church will be the same. Those still in mortal bodies may still retain their ethnic cultures, etc. but those who have received spiritual/immortal body will not be different or separated from the church. Hope this clarifies my position?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    As to my own views, I don't believe Israel becomes a Christian nation until after Jesus comes. I think that in the present age Israel remains a non-Christian entity with only a small remnant of Jews converting to Christianity throughout the age. Then, when Christ returns many nonChristian Jews will die under judgment, while Jewish believers will die under persecution. The net result will be that Israel will limp into the Millennial Age, having suffered serious casualties, and yet in a position for unbelieving Jews to repent and embrace Jesus at his coming.

    As for the notion of Israel "fleeing into the desert," seen in Rev 12, I don't see this as anything more than a symbolic escape from evil, such as when Israel escaped Egypt during the exodus. As we read, the Woman escapes in the desert "into her place," which I believe is Israel. So she is not really leaving Israel.

    It is possible, I suppose, that the Woman represents Christian believers in Israel who escape to a place prepared in the desert, just as believers fled to Pella in the 1st century? But if we see this as purely symbolic, we would see that Israel is a state located in the desert of the Middle East, protected from hostile neighbors. See Zech 14. To be honest, I'm not completely clear on this, and I'm not in the least dogmatic in my opinions on this.
    I agree with your position on the current state of Israel. Glad we clarified it because I rather feared you were propagating the theory that Israel will become a Christian nation BEFORE the Lord returns. With regards to their flight into the desert for succour, I believe it is literal and not symbolic. This is recapitulated several times in Rev 12 for it to be anything but a physical flight. Although I'm open your detailed explanation on how it can be otherwise?

  14. #194
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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Yes but the persecution of the saints isnít complete from the beast as itís been happening since the day Stephen was killed as they are from every nation
    There is a difference between "tribulation/persecution" and the Great Tribulation. In the OD, "great" was added to separate it from the daily tribulation/persecution or distress that has been happening since the time of Stephen.

    The GT will occur in the end times, not before, nor is it an unending 2000+-year-old catastrophe as some have believed.

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    Re: Is the temple in Rev 11:1-2 literal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    There is a difference between "tribulation/persecution" and the Great Tribulation. In the OD, "great" was added to separate it from the daily tribulation/persecution or distress that has been happening since the time of Stephen.

    The GT will occur in the end times, not before, nor is it an unending 2000+-year-old catastrophe as some have believed.
    But the words "the great tribulation" are in Revelation.

    Revelation 7:13-14
    14 I answered, “Sir, you know.”

    And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    Don't forget the ones in Revelation 7 are so many that no one can count them and from every tribe toung & nation so it started back in the first century which makes sense because that is when the church started

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