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Thread: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

  1. #46
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    Re: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    I've said similar and was slammed for it. The poor in the church should be supported by the church not the government. Churches wasting money while their members need assistance and have to get that assistance from the government is very sad, and to push it to the level of disgusting they are pressured into 'paying their tithes'.
    There is a very strong argument that the local church should have 2 aspects to its ministry. One is the ministry of the word of God to the church. And the other is the ministry of aid to those in the church who need it. It is not a ministry to all of society, but a ministry to the church.

    The church then is to produce evangelists and average church members who are equipped to share God's word and to display their lives to others, hopefully bringing them into the church. The people in the church who have needs should not be left in the cold when their brothers and sisters have a means to aid them.

  2. #47
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    Re: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    You do realize that "the world" is satan's means to steal from God? Tempting Christians with covetousness, luring them deeper into covetousness with the ease of credit card usage is another means to STEAL a Christian's ability to steward what provision that God has provided?

    Proper stewarding of God's provisions means, Christians do NOT have the burden of credit card debt due to the sin of covetousness

    Which means, giving greater to God ISN'T any burden at all
    I'm living in the *real world* brother. My daughter has fought, on and off, credit card debt for years. And she makes a reasonable income! Yes, the lure to covetousness is a real danger. I wouldn't call it "Satan," but I would call it foolish.

    But this is true all over the U.S. where I live. Credit card debt is a reality, and we can't just act like "we shouldn't have done this!"

    So when these young people (or old people) are faced with the mistakes they've made, should we still require them to pay the "tenth?" This is knowing that it just prolongs their debt, and in fact, costs them more, because they're paying a high percentage of interest on what is *not* getting paid off!

    Let's put it in simple terms. Let's say I foolishly make the mistake of buying stuff I thought I needed, and now have a credit card debt of 12,000 dollars. I can use the money from my job to pay off this 12000 dollar debt over the next 12 months. Or, I can pay a tenth of my 70,000 dollar income every month to my church. I cannot do both!

    If I use a tenth of my income to pay to my church, I will not be able to pay off the 12,000 dollar debt, and with interest I will now owe, after a year, 14,280! That isn't responsible stewardship either!

    The best thing to do is to pay down the foolish expenditure, and accept God's grace until the situation can be remedied. The law of the tithe then becomes "condemnation" to the penitent, and an impossible burden to bear.

  3. #48
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    Re: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm living in the *real world* brother. My daughter has fought, on and off, credit card debt for years. And she makes a reasonable income! Yes, the lure to covetousness is a real danger. I wouldn't call it "Satan," but I would call it foolish.

    But this is true all over the U.S. where I live. Credit card debt is a reality, and we can't just act like "we shouldn't have done this!"

    So when these young people (or old people) are faced with the mistakes they've made, should we still require them to pay the "tenth?" This is knowing that it just prolongs their debt, and in fact, costs them more, because they're paying a high percentage of interest on what is *not* getting paid off!

    Let's put it in simple terms. Let's say I foolishly make the mistake of buying stuff I thought I needed, and now have a credit card debt of 12,000 dollars. I can use the money from my job to pay off this 12000 dollar debt over the next 12 months. Or, I can pay a tenth of my 70,000 dollar income every month to my church. I cannot do both!

    If I use a tenth of my income to pay to my church, I will not be able to pay off the 12,000 dollar debt, and with interest I will now owe, after a year, 14,280! That isn't responsible stewardship either!

    The best thing to do is to pay down the foolish expenditure, and accept God's grace until the situation can be remedied. The law of the tithe then becomes "condemnation" to the penitent, and an impossible burden to bear.
    I live in the real world too brother and CC temptation can be overcome when Christians are "discipled" concerning stewarding of the provision that God provides.

    So, following through with your example, as you raised, in applying Paul's lesson, then a period of time giving little is done but when that period is over

    As for tithe enforcement becoming "condemnation" all I will say is mature Christians do not condemn, they will "correct" but not condemn. On the flip-side, mature Christians, should they be in a church enforcing a bondage like tithing requirement, don't allow the bondage to afflict them. They give what they will give, it's between them and God.

    Enforcing any doctrine is usually fruit of immaturity (meaning, lacking in maturity/undersgtanding, not implying a derogatory meaning). Thus why the scriptures show us that Christians must be discipled by those who HAVE been discipled, because then "conviction" properly is experienced, no bondage or condemnation.

    I notice that many posts are very negative about giving little or greatly to God... might this be because those who feel condemned or in bondage concerning this topic, their leadership are not discipled themselves and thus can't disciple about giving back to God as a relational element of one's faith/trust in God?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  4. #49
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    Re: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

    Slug1,
    Why they have the cc debt wasn't stated, and is irrelevant. Don't assume they were covetous christians and try to reply to randy's post and point. If you need help, pretend they acquired the debt before they were born again. Or maybe either they or a family member needed cancer treatment and the church wasn't there for them so they used cc's.

  5. #50
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    Re: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    There is a very strong argument that the local church should have 2 aspects to its ministry. One is the ministry of the word of God to the church. And the other is the ministry of aid to those in the church who need it. It is not a ministry to all of society, but a ministry to the church.

    The church then is to produce evangelists and average church members who are equipped to share God's word and to display their lives to others, hopefully bringing them into the church. The people in the church who have needs should not be left in the cold when their brothers and sisters have a means to aid them.
    That's right. There's always and abundance left over to feed God's people. When it doesn't make it to God's people, someone wasn't a good steward with God's money.

  6. #51
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    Re: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    So when these young people (or old people) are faced with the mistakes they've made, should we still require them to pay the "tenth?" This is knowing that it just prolongs their debt, and in fact, costs them more, because they're paying a high percentage of interest on what is *not* getting paid off!
    Yes. We don't want them to be free. They must pay for what they have done.

  7. #52
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    Re: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm living in the *real world* brother. My daughter has fought, on and off, credit card debt for years. And she makes a reasonable income! Yes, the lure to covetousness is a real danger. I wouldn't call it "Satan," but I would call it foolish.

    But this is true all over the U.S. where I live. Credit card debt is a reality, and we can't just act like "we shouldn't have done this!"

    So when these young people (or old people) are faced with the mistakes they've made, should we still require them to pay the "tenth?" This is knowing that it just prolongs their debt, and in fact, costs them more, because they're paying a high percentage of interest on what is *not* getting paid off!

    Let's put it in simple terms. Let's say I foolishly make the mistake of buying stuff I thought I needed, and now have a credit card debt of 12,000 dollars. I can use the money from my job to pay off this 12000 dollar debt over the next 12 months. Or, I can pay a tenth of my 70,000 dollar income every month to my church. I cannot do both!

    If I use a tenth of my income to pay to my church, I will not be able to pay off the 12,000 dollar debt, and with interest I will now owe, after a year, 14,280! That isn't responsible stewardship either!

    The best thing to do is to pay down the foolish expenditure, and accept God's grace until the situation can be remedied. The law of the tithe then becomes "condemnation" to the penitent, and an impossible burden to bear.
    I am no fan of teaching "give a tenth because of scripture examples" or "because of the tithe". However, giving is one way to overcome coveteousness. If someone in the church is struggling with debt, then step 1, is to start to give a little bit each pay period. Step 2, is to cut up credit cards. Step 3 is to start to pay off those credit cards each pay period. These are all steps that can be taken. It is part of "take up your cross and follow me". But, there does come a time when giving is joyous! But that generally happens when one either makes a good deal of money, or has dealt with their self centered coveting, or has simply experienced God's grace enough that the desire to give, as He has given to them, becomes a motivating factor. The latter is of course, the most positive.

    When someone has been touched by God, they will be motivated to give. And if credit card debt is an on going issue, it is rather easily fixed. Just cut up the cards. No cards, no access to more credit debt. If the problem is so severe that someone applies for new credit cards regularly, then counseling is definitely needed.

    Also, there is no doubt that the devil is involved in such cases. He sets the trap, baits it, and waits. Also, if there is a stronghold (i.e. repeated behavior), then the demonic is definitely involved and can be dealt with (2 Cor 10).

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm living in the *real world* brother. My daughter has fought, on and off, credit card debt for years. And she makes a reasonable income! Yes, the lure to covetousness is a real danger. I wouldn't call it "Satan," but I would call it foolish.

    But this is true all over the U.S. where I live. Credit card debt is a reality, and we can't just act like "we shouldn't have done this!"

    So when these young people (or old people) are faced with the mistakes they've made, should we still require them to pay the "tenth?" This is knowing that it just prolongs their debt, and in fact, costs them more, because they're paying a high percentage of interest on what is *not* getting paid off!

    Let's put it in simple terms. Let's say I foolishly make the mistake of buying stuff I thought I needed, and now have a credit card debt of 12,000 dollars. I can use the money from my job to pay off this 12000 dollar debt over the next 12 months. Or, I can pay a tenth of my 70,000 dollar income every month to my church. I cannot do both!

    If I use a tenth of my income to pay to my church, I will not be able to pay off the 12,000 dollar debt, and with interest I will now owe, after a year, 14,280! That isn't responsible stewardship either!

    The best thing to do is to pay down the foolish expenditure, and accept God's grace until the situation can be remedied. The law of the tithe then becomes "condemnation" to the penitent, and an impossible burden to bear.
    I am no fan of teaching "give a tenth because of scripture examples" or "because of the tithe". However, giving is one way to overcome coveteousness. If someone in the church is struggling with debt, then step 1, is to start to give a little bit each pay period. Step 2, is to cut up credit cards. Step 3 is to start to pay off those credit cards each pay period. These are all steps that can be taken. It is part of "take up your cross and follow me". But, there does come a time when giving is joyous! But that generally happens when one either makes a good deal of money, or has dealt with their self centered coveting, or has simply experienced God's grace enough that the desire to give, as He has given to them, becomes a motivating factor. The latter is of course, the most positive.

    When someone has been touched by God, they will be motivated to give. And if credit card debt is an on going issue, it is rather easily fixed. Just cut up the cards. No cards, no access to more credit debt. If the problem is so severe that someone applies for new credit cards regularly, then counseling is definitely needed.

    Also, there is no doubt that the devil is involved in such cases. He sets the trap, baits it, and waits. Also, if there is a stronghold (i.e. repeated behavior), then the demonic is definitely involved and can be dealt with (2 Cor 10).
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  8. #53
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    Re: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Slug1,
    Why they have the cc debt wasn't stated, and is irrelevant. Don't assume they were covetous christians and try to reply to randy's post and point. If you need help, pretend they acquired the debt before they were born again. Or maybe either they or a family member needed cancer treatment and the church wasn't there for them so they used cc's.
    This is a vdery good point. But if there is a stronghold, not enabling is important too. And we should assume the most positive situation first... i.e. no sin, no stronghold, but difficult times. Love believes the best and we are not to judge till things are exposed. Mercy overcomes judgment and is a strong weapon against strongholds.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  9. #54

    Re: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post

    Abraham did so after a great victory over 5 kings, and going into convenant with Melchisadek. Abraham tithed once.
    Bingo. His example is used by so many as the beginning of the tithe, yet they NEVER come to the conclusion that we should give 10% of the spoils of war to God, and the rest back to the people it came from.

    The Word of God (Jesus) came to earth and returned with an increase. Isa 55:11 (symbolized by ש)
    That increase was his bride; the church.

    עשר tithe also means 'riches'. There were to things of value buried in the field; a pearl, and a treasure. One is singular the other is a single thing filled with lots of things. It suggests taht Christ and his church were buried together (as we 'died in Christ') and that the church is his treasure (made to be like him). We are his tithe.

    References
    Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.

  10. #55
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    Re: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Slug1,
    Why they have the cc debt wasn't stated, and is irrelevant. Don't assume they were covetous christians and try to reply to randy's post and point. If you need help, pretend they acquired the debt before they were born again. Or maybe either they or a family member needed cancer treatment and the church wasn't there for them so they used cc's.
    Noted. I have much experience as a financial advisor due to my job and other opportunities to help people with their finances. Based on this, your example is actually extremely r are concerning CC usage. Also, the rare cases I am experienced with, where CC were used for medical reasons, the families do not feet over the debt due to the "heart" reason for use of the CC. Based on experience, only those who heart is about abuse of a CC, used to get wants, not needs, suffer financially and in this suffering, use the suffering as an excuse to give nothing to God.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  11. #56
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    Re: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Noted. I have much experience as a financial advisor due to my job and other opportunities to help people with their finances. Based on this, your example is actually extremely r are concerning CC usage. Also, the rare cases I am experienced with, where CC were used for medical reasons, the families do not feet over the debt due to the "heart" reason for use of the CC. Based on experience, only those who heart is about abuse of a CC, used to get wants, not needs, suffer financially and in this suffering, use the suffering as an excuse to give nothing to God.
    Feet = fret
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  12. #57
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    Re: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    I live in the real world too brother and CC temptation can be overcome when Christians are "discipled" concerning stewarding of the provision that God provides.

    So, following through with your example, as you raised, in applying Paul's lesson, then a period of time giving little is done but when that period is over

    As for tithe enforcement becoming "condemnation" all I will say is mature Christians do not condemn, they will "correct" but not condemn. On the flip-side, mature Christians, should they be in a church enforcing a bondage like tithing requirement, don't allow the bondage to afflict them. They give what they will give, it's between them and God.

    Enforcing any doctrine is usually fruit of immaturity (meaning, lacking in maturity/undersgtanding, not implying a derogatory meaning). Thus why the scriptures show us that Christians must be discipled by those who HAVE been discipled, because then "conviction" properly is experienced, no bondage or condemnation.

    I notice that many posts are very negative about giving little or greatly to God... might this be because those who feel condemned or in bondage concerning this topic, their leadership are not discipled themselves and thus can't disciple about giving back to God as a relational element of one's faith/trust in God?
    I respect you a lot, brother. Even if you believe in the "tithe," I find you very willing to engage difficult issues with a good mind set. You belong in leadership! I don't get this in my own church. The leadership likes me in the church. I do give enough to be significantly needed. But nobody wants to talk to me about Bible Doctrines. From the pulpit the pastor boldly proclaimed that he will deal with anybody in the congregation with "doctrinal issues." But up close and personal, he runs away.

    You have not run away, although if you believe in the "tithe" this would be extremely uncomfortable for you. Instead you bring to bear Christian liberty, love, and forgiveness. God bless you for that brother. That's a rare virtue--even in the church! I really expected you to throw me out the door, metaphorically speaking.

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    Re: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Noted. I have much experience as a financial advisor due to my job and other opportunities to help people with their finances. Based on this, your example is actually extremely r are concerning CC usage. Also, the rare cases I am experienced with, where CC were used for medical reasons, the families do not feet over the debt due to the "heart" reason for use of the CC. Based on experience, only those who heart is about abuse of a CC, used to get wants, not needs, suffer financially and in this suffering, use the suffering as an excuse to give nothing to God.
    I understand your point. Some people are just greedy or like to hoard. On the other hand, how much money qualifies us as "giving?" Many, many Americans around me live from paycheck to paycheck. Their "giving" is often not money, but is very much worth its weight in money. For example, some have loaned me use of their truck, and others have let me stay in their house during a power outage. I've been given lots of free food. This stuff costs money! I don't need dollars from them to prove they're generous, but they do that too! Sometimes they buy me lunch!

    When it comes to church finances, the church needs actual money, as well as labor of various kinds. Those who are "loaded" should probably carry most of the financial burden. And those who live from paycheck to paycheck should just give small, until they do better. They should take care of their debts. "Owe no man anything."

    The important thing, from my perspective, is that we not base giving on a *rule!* The law of the tithe is phony, and has no precedent in the NT Scriptures. The precedent is purely from the OT Scriptures, and applied to a sacrificial, temple system that depended upon an agricultural society. To transfer that over to NT giving is more than a stretch--it is legalism!

    But for many this is debatable. And that's why I bring up the subject. Like circumcision, it is a controversial subject, and I think that if Paul was concerned about the legalism of circumcision, we should also be concerned about *any* form of legalism, right?

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    Re: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I respect you a lot, brother. Even if you believe in the "tithe," I find you very willing to engage difficult issues with a good mind set. You belong in leadership! I don't get this in my own church. The leadership likes me in the church. I do give enough to be significantly needed. But nobody wants to talk to me about Bible Doctrines. From the pulpit the pastor boldly proclaimed that he will deal with anybody in the congregation with "doctrinal issues." But up close and personal, he runs away.

    You have not run away, although if you believe in the "tithe" this would be extremely uncomfortable for you. Instead you bring to bear Christian liberty, love, and forgiveness. God bless you for that brother. That's a rare virtue--even in the church! I really expected you to throw me out the door, metaphorically speaking.
    Randy, I've been hurt so many times by leadership and church doctrine, it has to end and the only way for it to end is to "GROW" in Christ... who would never throw anyone out the door

    Just for the record, I believe in giving BACK to God. Something that began long before the "tithe" was ever considered when Abraham and Jacob acted in faith as they did.

    I've read the responses concerning the single actions (one time only) of giving back to God, in gratitude for the victory given and what led to the action of giving back to God of 10% of the provision secured in victory. Since I am responding to you now, I will say this.

    Sure, God gave victory and the action of giving back was in response to a victory and thus, a single act of giving back.

    When Christ died and the victory is forevermore... is giving back to God in gratitude, to be a single act or should the action of giving back to God be as Paul's lesson teaches?

    Something to think about.

    Hey, my wife was led to write something which she began yesterday. Today she read it all to me and I smiled and told her "one spirit." I had no idea she was writing it and I will link it here, since she posted it this morning. I bet you will find it interesting.

    How Much is Enough? - Editorial led with Matthew 16:19-20 on the Breaking the Chains Website: http://btcbrm.org/2019/02/09/how-much-is-enough/
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    I am no fan of teaching "give a tenth because of scripture examples" or "because of the tithe". However, giving is one way to overcome coveteousness. If someone in the church is struggling with debt, then step 1, is to start to give a little bit each pay period. Step 2, is to cut up credit cards. Step 3 is to start to pay off those credit cards each pay period. These are all steps that can be taken. It is part of "take up your cross and follow me". But, there does come a time when giving is joyous! But that generally happens when one either makes a good deal of money, or has dealt with their self centered coveting, or has simply experienced God's grace enough that the desire to give, as He has given to them, becomes a motivating factor. The latter is of course, the most positive.

    When someone has been touched by God, they will be motivated to give. And if credit card debt is an on going issue, it is rather easily fixed. Just cut up the cards. No cards, no access to more credit debt. If the problem is so severe that someone applies for new credit cards regularly, then counseling is definitely needed.

    Also, there is no doubt that the devil is involved in such cases. He sets the trap, baits it, and waits. Also, if there is a stronghold (i.e. repeated behavior), then the demonic is definitely involved and can be dealt with (2 Cor 10).
    I like the spirit of your post, because it speaks to me. Some people do need to be exhorted, and perhaps even reproved, in the matter of giving. Some people think they do the church a favor, putting a few dollars in the offering plate, even though they make good money. It's more like a "tip" than it is paying a bill.

    But they need to be clearly informed that the church requires that *bills be paid.* The pastor's family needs to be provided for. The musicians may need a sound system and equipment and a place to practice. The real estate needs to be purchased. The utilities need to be *on.* It's amazing how little people pay attention if they are not directly told!

    Of course, we don't always know what people are doing with their giving. I'm sure the treasurer knows, but church giving is often quiet, and protects privacy. After all, giving is not supposed to be done with trumpet blaring, right?

    Anyway, it's good for the soul to give, even by people like myself, who find it difficult to give in circumstances in which the board makes all the business decisions for me--I've not wanted to be on the board. The pastors and the board all believe in the "tithe," and so want everything to be done in faith, and with the expectation that all *should* give the tithe. This makes for a very unpredictable set of plans and expectations!

    But what you're talking about is a matter of acting out our regenerate spirits. As Christ has taken over in our lives, we should care about others, and want to do things for them. There is always an element of sacrifice in what we do, because we serve the Lord and others, ahead of ourselves. And what we do for ourselves is often done ultimately for others, as well.

    So yes, let's exhort one another to give, as Christians. But I would never put a legal requirement between God and myself. The freedom I have to love Him, without any requirements at all, is too precious to give up. But not using the good spirit God has given us is pretty inconsistent, I agree! And taking practical steps to get out of bad practices is a good thing to teach and to do.

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