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Thread: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

  1. #61
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    Re: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Randy, I've been hurt so many times by leadership and church doctrine, it has to end and the only way for it to end is to "GROW" in Christ... who would never throw anyone out the door

    Just for the record, I believe in giving BACK to God. Something that began long before the "tithe" was ever considered when Abraham and Jacob acted in faith as they did.

    I've read the responses concerning the single actions (one time only) of giving back to God, in gratitude for the victory given and what led to the action of giving back to God of 10% of the provision secured in victory. Since I am responding to you now, I will say this.

    Sure, God gave victory and the action of giving back was in response to a victory and thus, a single act of giving back.

    When Christ died and the victory is forevermore... is giving back to God in gratitude, to be a single act or should the action of giving back to God be as Paul's lesson teaches?

    Something to think about.

    Hey, my wife was led to write something which she began yesterday. Today she read it all to me and I smiled and told her "one spirit." I had no idea she was writing it and I will link it here, since she posted it this morning. I bet you will find it interesting.

    How Much is Enough? - Editorial led with Matthew 16:19-20 on the Breaking the Chains Website: http://btcbrm.org/2019/02/09/how-much-is-enough/
    That was beautifully put. Thank your wife for me. These are issues I've been thinking about in my retirement--how much to invest in business or how much to invest in people? I don't have the answers yet, but hearing these great bits of advice certainly help to maintain perspective! Thanks brother!

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Randy, I've been hurt so many times by leadership and church doctrine, it has to end and the only way for it to end is to "GROW" in Christ... who would never throw anyone out the door

    Just for the record, I believe in giving BACK to God. Something that began long before the "tithe" was ever considered when Abraham and Jacob acted in faith as they did.

    I've read the responses concerning the single actions (one time only) of giving back to God, in gratitude for the victory given and what led to the action of giving back to God of 10% of the provision secured in victory. Since I am responding to you now, I will say this.

    Sure, God gave victory and the action of giving back was in response to a victory and thus, a single act of giving back.

    When Christ died and the victory is forevermore... is giving back to God in gratitude, to be a single act or should the action of giving back to God be as Paul's lesson teaches?

    Something to think about.

    Hey, my wife was led to write something which she began yesterday. Today she read it all to me and I smiled and told her "one spirit." I had no idea she was writing it and I will link it here, since she posted it this morning. I bet you will find it interesting.

    How Much is Enough? - Editorial led with Matthew 16:19-20 on the Breaking the Chains Website: http://btcbrm.org/2019/02/09/how-much-is-enough/
    That was beautifully put. Thank your wife for me. These are issues I've been thinking about in my retirement--how much to invest in business or how much to invest in people? I don't have the answers yet, but hearing these great bits of advice certainly help to maintain perspective! Thanks brother!

  2. #62
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    Re: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Noted. I have much experience as a financial advisor due to my job and other opportunities to help people with their finances. Based on this, your example is actually extremely r are concerning CC usage. Also, the rare cases I am experienced with, where CC were used for medical reasons, the families do not feet over the debt due to the "heart" reason for use of the CC. Based on experience, only those who heart is about abuse of a CC, used to get wants, not needs, suffer financially and in this suffering, use the suffering as an excuse to give nothing to God.
    Good non-answer. The issue is the debt exists. Someone said just cut up the cc's, problem solved. No. Debt remains. Why is irrelevant to the question. How to pay off the debt. If the precious 10% is required, it's required, end of story. You don't seem to be willing to accept this and say it. Legitimate reasons for the existence of cc debt are not rare. That's an out_of_touch statement. Sorry. Also, not being concerned about the debt because you had a "heart reason" for it is a bad heart condition. That pig can't fly either Slug1.

  3. #63
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    Re: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I understand your point. Some people are just greedy or like to hoard. On the other hand, how much money qualifies us as "giving?" Many, many Americans around me live from paycheck to paycheck. Their "giving" is often not money, but is very much worth its weight in money. For example, some have loaned me use of their truck, and others have let me stay in their house during a power outage. I've been given lots of free food. This stuff costs money! I don't need dollars from them to prove they're generous, but they do that too! Sometimes they buy me lunch!

    When it comes to church finances, the church needs actual money, as well as labor of various kinds. Those who are "loaded" should probably carry most of the financial burden. And those who live from paycheck to paycheck should just give small, until they do better. They should take care of their debts. "Owe no man anything."

    The important thing, from my perspective, is that we not base giving on a *rule!* The law of the tithe is phony, and has no precedent in the NT Scriptures. The precedent is purely from the OT Scriptures, and applied to a sacrificial, temple system that depended upon an agricultural society. To transfer that over to NT giving is more than a stretch--it is legalism!

    But for many this is debatable. And that's why I bring up the subject. Like circumcision, it is a controversial subject, and I think that if Paul was concerned about the legalism of circumcision, we should also be concerned about *any* form of legalism, right?
    Well said. People like to bring up Abraham but it doesn't fit in our discussion. Abraham wasn't in debt and wasn't giving 10 percent from what he needed to survive.

  4. #64
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    Re: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    That was beautifully put. Thank your wife for me. These are issues I've been thinking about in my retirement--how much to invest in business or how much to invest in people? I don't have the answers yet, but hearing these great bits of advice certainly help to maintain perspective! Thanks brother!
    I will inform her, God bless ya brother!
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  5. #65
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    Re: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I like the spirit of your post, because it speaks to me. Some people do need to be exhorted, and perhaps even reproved, in the matter of giving. Some people think they do the church a favor, putting a few dollars in the offering plate, even though they make good money. It's more like a "tip" than it is paying a bill.

    But they need to be clearly informed that the church requires that *bills be paid.* The pastor's family needs to be provided for. The musicians may need a sound system and equipment and a place to practice. The real estate needs to be purchased. The utilities need to be *on.* It's amazing how little people pay attention if they are not directly told!

    Of course, we don't always know what people are doing with their giving. I'm sure the treasurer knows, but church giving is often quiet, and protects privacy. After all, giving is not supposed to be done with trumpet blaring, right?

    Anyway, it's good for the soul to give, even by people like myself, who find it difficult to give in circumstances in which the board makes all the business decisions for me--I've not wanted to be on the board. The pastors and the board all believe in the "tithe," and so want everything to be done in faith, and with the expectation that all *should* give the tithe. This makes for a very unpredictable set of plans and expectations!

    But what you're talking about is a matter of acting out our regenerate spirits. As Christ has taken over in our lives, we should care about others, and want to do things for them. There is always an element of sacrifice in what we do, because we serve the Lord and others, ahead of ourselves. And what we do for ourselves is often done ultimately for others, as well.

    So yes, let's exhort one another to give, as Christians. But I would never put a legal requirement between God and myself. The freedom I have to love Him, without any requirements at all, is too precious to give up. But not using the good spirit God has given us is pretty inconsistent, I agree! And taking practical steps to get out of bad practices is a good thing to teach and to do.
    Yes! Spot on brother Randy. Wish I could rep you again. One thing that has fascinated me about Judas and Jesus was money. Judas was a thief. Jesus knew this. And still, Jesus let Judas keep the money bag where donations for the poor were kept. Imagine the backlash today if our churches allowed a thief to keep the books!!!! I think this shows the lack of value that Jesus put on money. Giving is a good way for us to keep those things in check. But even more important is how precious it is to snatch someone from the jaws of the enemy through giving.

    Job 29 is one of my favorite passages on giving. Job spoke first of how he missed the great respect that use to be shown to him.

    7 "When I went out to the gate by the city,
    When I took my seat in the open square,
    8 The young men saw me and hid,
    And the aged arose and stood;
    9 The princes refrained from talking,
    And put their hand on their mouth;
    10 The voice of nobles was hushed,
    And their tongue stuck to the roof of their mouth.
    11 When the ear heard, then it blessed me,
    And when the eye saw, then it approved me;

    Imagine! Nobles tongues stuck to the roof of their mouths in Job's presence. Princes put their hands over their mouth (the same reaction Job had when God showed up). Young and old stood up when Job entered the room. This man had great respect! I mean GREAT respect.

    Why was he given such respect? He answers that question... he helped those in need. A LOT.

    12 Because I delivered the poor who cried out,
    The fatherless and the one who had no helper.
    13 The blessing of a perishing man came upon me,
    And I caused the widow's heart to sing for joy.
    14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me;
    My justice was like a robe and a turban.
    15 I was eyes to the blind,
    And I was feet to the lame.
    16 I was a father to the poor,
    And I searched out the case that I did not know.
    17 I broke the fangs of the wicked,
    And plucked the victim from his teeth.

    And note that last verse. He plucked the victim from the teeth/jaws of the enemy. I like the way the NASB puts it:

    17 "And I broke the jaws of the wicked,
    And snatched the prey from his teeth.

    The poor are often the prey of the wicked and the enemy. When we give to them, or minister to them, we break his jaws. To me the picture is of a lamb in the mouth of wolf. Giving to those in need, delivering the poor and the needy, and so on. These things mean we are "putting on righteousness as a robe" and that we are "breaking the jaws of the wicked". IOW, it is spiritual warfare to help those in need. Sometimes, financial troubles can be so overwhelming to people, that helping them just a little is warfare and breaks the grip the enemy has on them.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  6. #66

    Re: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

    randyk, I agree that 10% is not a requirement for Christians. Paul's words do suggest that the rich should give more.

    1 Corinthians 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
    2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.


    While not a command, it is a grace to be able to abound in the grace of giving.

    1 Corinthians 8:7 Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.
    8 I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.


    Concerning someone in debt, I don't think God expects such a person to give.

    2 Corinthians 8:12 For if there is first a willing mind, it is accepted according to what one has, and not according to what he does not have.

  7. #67
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    Re: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Good non-answer. The issue is the debt exists. Someone said just cut up the cc's, problem solved. No. Debt remains. Why is irrelevant to the question. How to pay off the debt. If the precious 10% is required, it's required, end of story. You don't seem to be willing to accept this and say it. Legitimate reasons for the existence of cc debt are not rare. That's an out_of_touch statement. Sorry. Also, not being concerned about the debt because you had a "heart reason" for it is a bad heart condition. That pig can't fly either Slug1.
    That wasn't what was implied Noeb. The problem is covetousness and the misuse of credit cards. The misuse of credit cards can be dealt with by cutting them up. Covetousness can be attacked by giving. Ultimately, God changes the heart. Slug isn't saying 10% is required. At least that is not what I have gotten from his posts.

    Debt isn't a reason to not give. If all one can give is a penny, then give that. If that is what is in the heart, then do that. Give. It will help deal with the covetousness and fulfills the command to "deny self, take up your cross and follow me". Following Jesus means we will give. And as Slug has repeatedly stated, giving is something we do in reaction to being given to.

    There are valid reasons for being in debt. And even in the OT, God had a provision for those that needed to "borrow the tithe". We are not under that covenant. Utlimately, it is good to learn that it is more blessed to give than to receive. Part of that is it means that it is better to have circumstances where one can give rather than where one needs to receive. Ultimately, learning to give, even if in debt, and especially if the debt was incurred because of covetousness (which is not always the case), goes a long way in helping us deny our desires concerning money. It helps put money in the right place in our life... as a servant rather than a master.

    Even if someone were deep in debt because of medical bills, still giving should be a part of a believers life. I do not believe they should give as much as someone who is not in debt because they still owe money to someone else. But they can still give. And they will be blessed in many ways through their giving if they do. This God promises and we can bank on that. That doesn't mean we treat giving like a lottery game though.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

    Edit to add: The hope is that one will gain the joy of giving rather than the duty of giving. And if one cannot give a little joyfully, even a penny, then something is wrong somewhere... either in the heart or in the circumstances.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  9. #69
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    Re: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

    Quote Originally Posted by greenonions View Post
    randyk, I agree that 10% is not a requirement for Christians. Paul's words do suggest that the rich should give more.

    1 Corinthians 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
    2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.


    While not a command, it is a grace to be able to abound in the grace of giving.

    1 Corinthians 8:7 Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.
    8 I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.


    Concerning someone in debt, I don't think God expects such a person to give.

    2 Corinthians 8:12 For if there is first a willing mind, it is accepted according to what one has, and not according to what he does not have.
    Right on the money. And I do mean *money!*

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    Re: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Debt isn't a reason to not give. If all one can give is a penny, then give that. If that is what is in the heart, then do that. Give.
    This is the heart of the matter. Debt is always raised in discussions themed as this thread is themed. Thus why I also mentioned earlier to Randy, if during a time of debt, give little. A Christians MUST not allow the debt to control their relationship with God and if all that can be given is a little, GIVE it.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  11. #71
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    Re: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    That wasn't what was implied Noeb. The problem is covetousness and the misuse of credit cards.
    Two thirds of the post you responded to said the following

    "So when these young people (or old people) are faced with the mistakes they've made, should we still require them to pay the "tenth?" This is knowing that it just prolongs their debt, and in fact, costs them more, because they're paying a high percentage of interest on what is *not* getting paid off!

    Let's put it in simple terms. Let's say I foolishly make the mistake of buying stuff I thought I needed, and now have a credit card debt of 12,000 dollars. I can use the money from my job to pay off this 12000 dollar debt over the next 12 months. Or, I can pay a tenth of my 70,000 dollar income every month to my church. I cannot do both!

    If I use a tenth of my income to pay to my church, I will not be able to pay off the 12,000 dollar debt, and with interest I will now owe, after a year, 14,280! That isn't responsible stewardship either!

    The best thing to do is to pay down the foolish expenditure, and accept God's grace until the situation can be remedied. The law of the tithe then becomes "condemnation" to the penitent, and an impossible burden to bear."

    You and Slug1 don't answer the question, despite repeated attempt by both Randy and I to keep you on track. Randy never asked what the problem is. Every time it has been brought up he has politely acknowledged it and asked what about the debt and 10%?


    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Debt isn't a reason to not give. If all one can give is a penny, then give that.
    no one has said don't give. When I said if the 10% is required to pay the debt, obviously, it was the strict belief and regiment that you have to give 10%, bare minimum. Seriously, what believer would say don't give?

  12. #72
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    Re: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Yes! Spot on brother Randy. Wish I could rep you again. One thing that has fascinated me about Judas and Jesus was money. Judas was a thief. Jesus knew this. And still, Jesus let Judas keep the money bag where donations for the poor were kept. Imagine the backlash today if our churches allowed a thief to keep the books!!!! I think this shows the lack of value that Jesus put on money. Giving is a good way for us to keep those things in check. But even more important is how precious it is to snatch someone from the jaws of the enemy through giving.

    Job 29 is one of my favorite passages on giving. Job spoke first of how he missed the great respect that use to be shown to him.

    7 "When I went out to the gate by the city,
    When I took my seat in the open square,
    8 The young men saw me and hid,
    And the aged arose and stood;
    9 The princes refrained from talking,
    And put their hand on their mouth;
    10 The voice of nobles was hushed,
    And their tongue stuck to the roof of their mouth.
    11 When the ear heard, then it blessed me,
    And when the eye saw, then it approved me;

    Imagine! Nobles tongues stuck to the roof of their mouths in Job's presence. Princes put their hands over their mouth (the same reaction Job had when God showed up). Young and old stood up when Job entered the room. This man had great respect! I mean GREAT respect.

    Why was he given such respect? He answers that question... he helped those in need. A LOT.

    12 Because I delivered the poor who cried out,
    The fatherless and the one who had no helper.
    13 The blessing of a perishing man came upon me,
    And I caused the widow's heart to sing for joy.
    14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me;
    My justice was like a robe and a turban.
    15 I was eyes to the blind,
    And I was feet to the lame.
    16 I was a father to the poor,
    And I searched out the case that I did not know.
    17 I broke the fangs of the wicked,
    And plucked the victim from his teeth.

    And note that last verse. He plucked the victim from the teeth/jaws of the enemy. I like the way the NASB puts it:

    17 "And I broke the jaws of the wicked,
    And snatched the prey from his teeth.

    The poor are often the prey of the wicked and the enemy. When we give to them, or minister to them, we break his jaws. To me the picture is of a lamb in the mouth of wolf. Giving to those in need, delivering the poor and the needy, and so on. These things mean we are "putting on righteousness as a robe" and that we are "breaking the jaws of the wicked". IOW, it is spiritual warfare to help those in need. Sometimes, financial troubles can be so overwhelming to people, that helping them just a little is warfare and breaks the grip the enemy has on them.
    Yes, you're doing spiritual warfare when you share revelations like this. It's good to take note!

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Yes! Spot on brother Randy. Wish I could rep you again. One thing that has fascinated me about Judas and Jesus was money. Judas was a thief. Jesus knew this. And still, Jesus let Judas keep the money bag where donations for the poor were kept. Imagine the backlash today if our churches allowed a thief to keep the books!!!! I think this shows the lack of value that Jesus put on money. Giving is a good way for us to keep those things in check. But even more important is how precious it is to snatch someone from the jaws of the enemy through giving.

    Job 29 is one of my favorite passages on giving. Job spoke first of how he missed the great respect that use to be shown to him.

    7 "When I went out to the gate by the city,
    When I took my seat in the open square,
    8 The young men saw me and hid,
    And the aged arose and stood;
    9 The princes refrained from talking,
    And put their hand on their mouth;
    10 The voice of nobles was hushed,
    And their tongue stuck to the roof of their mouth.
    11 When the ear heard, then it blessed me,
    And when the eye saw, then it approved me;

    Imagine! Nobles tongues stuck to the roof of their mouths in Job's presence. Princes put their hands over their mouth (the same reaction Job had when God showed up). Young and old stood up when Job entered the room. This man had great respect! I mean GREAT respect.

    Why was he given such respect? He answers that question... he helped those in need. A LOT.

    12 Because I delivered the poor who cried out,
    The fatherless and the one who had no helper.
    13 The blessing of a perishing man came upon me,
    And I caused the widow's heart to sing for joy.
    14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me;
    My justice was like a robe and a turban.
    15 I was eyes to the blind,
    And I was feet to the lame.
    16 I was a father to the poor,
    And I searched out the case that I did not know.
    17 I broke the fangs of the wicked,
    And plucked the victim from his teeth.

    And note that last verse. He plucked the victim from the teeth/jaws of the enemy. I like the way the NASB puts it:

    17 "And I broke the jaws of the wicked,
    And snatched the prey from his teeth.

    The poor are often the prey of the wicked and the enemy. When we give to them, or minister to them, we break his jaws. To me the picture is of a lamb in the mouth of wolf. Giving to those in need, delivering the poor and the needy, and so on. These things mean we are "putting on righteousness as a robe" and that we are "breaking the jaws of the wicked". IOW, it is spiritual warfare to help those in need. Sometimes, financial troubles can be so overwhelming to people, that helping them just a little is warfare and breaks the grip the enemy has on them.
    Yes, you're doing spiritual warfare when you share revelations like this. It's good to take note!

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    Re: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    This is the heart of the matter. Debt is always raised in discussions themed as this thread is themed. Thus why I also mentioned earlier to Randy, if during a time of debt, give little. A Christians MUST not allow the debt to control their relationship with God and if all that can be given is a little, GIVE it.
    How could cc debt control a relationship with God?

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    Re: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    How could cc debt control a relationship with God?
    When a person thinks or acts on... "I can't give anything to God because I have CC debt that has to be paid off first," is having their relationship with God, controlled by the debt.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  15. #75
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    Re: Is the Tithe a Bondage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Two thirds of the post you responded to said the following

    "So when these young people (or old people) are faced with the mistakes they've made, should we still require them to pay the "tenth?" This is knowing that it just prolongs their debt, and in fact, costs them more, because they're paying a high percentage of interest on what is *not* getting paid off!

    Let's put it in simple terms. Let's say I foolishly make the mistake of buying stuff I thought I needed, and now have a credit card debt of 12,000 dollars. I can use the money from my job to pay off this 12000 dollar debt over the next 12 months. Or, I can pay a tenth of my 70,000 dollar income every month to my church. I cannot do both!

    If I use a tenth of my income to pay to my church, I will not be able to pay off the 12,000 dollar debt, and with interest I will now owe, after a year, 14,280! That isn't responsible stewardship either!

    The best thing to do is to pay down the foolish expenditure, and accept God's grace until the situation can be remedied. The law of the tithe then becomes "condemnation" to the penitent, and an impossible burden to bear."

    You and Slug1 don't answer the question, despite repeated attempt by both Randy and I to keep you on track. Randy never asked what the problem is. Every time it has been brought up he has politely acknowledged it and asked what about the debt and 10%?


    no one has said don't give. When I said if the 10% is required to pay the debt, obviously, it was the strict belief and regiment that you have to give 10%, bare minimum. Seriously, what believer would say don't give?
    Randy has been responding positively to answers both Mark and I reply with. Maybe the answers which are helping him are NOT what you WANT to hear? Thus why your responses have done nothing but resist the answers that are helping Randy?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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