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Thread: Israel of God or of man?

  1. #16
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    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    I disagree, though. Man does a lot of things without God's approval. Building nuclear weapons to destroy the state of Israel (Iran), for example. Murdering Jews in gas chambers is another example of man's activity which is not of God.

    The point is, man does things without God's consent all the time - and God has not yet restored Israel. Israel is Christ's Kingdom and He will establish it when He returns.

    That being said, I'm not an enemy of the state of Israel or its people. I rather like it and them - but it's man's "Israel", not God's. God's Israel is on its way - and I believe it's just around the corner.

    What verses support your bolded statement, otherwise I agree.
    A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

  2. #17
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    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    Nice summary.

    I beleive it was of men and not of God, as, what is the point of reigniting something that God allowed destroyed in 70AD? Reinstating sacrifices and building another temple is an affront to God. ( we are now the Temple now ). Jews and Gentiles are in the same boat now, all needing Jesus and his final sacrifice.

    This does not mean we hate the Jews or persecute them, they are the same as any man who knows not the Lord, lost needing salvation and the Truth.

    As I see it, it’s Creation in 48’ was not meant to draw near to God, but to hold onto the shadows and types of long ago, beliefs that were wrong then and are still wrong, being wiped away by the New Covenant. Now ones escatology will drive how one sees this issue, there are many in different camps.

    Thanks for posting that.
    Agreed, thank you. You make an important point: The motive of the Zionists exists in their unbelief of the covenant in Christ's blood. God will not support a motive like that, and He definitely will not inspire a motive like that, or help to bring it about. He has allowed it, in the same way He allowed Babylon to destroy Jerusalem and the temple, but without inspiring the heart of Nebuchadnezzar to do it. He simple removed His protection of Judah and let man do his own thing.

  3. #18
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    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Christians are called to be a light to the world, testimonies to the love of Christ for all nations. Israel is one of those nations. And the Jewish People, as "People of the Book," have been hated, persecuted, and ridiculed for centuries. Christians should *not* be engaging in any form of antisemetic sentiment, if at all possible. This is *not* a good witness to the Jewish People! It does not express the love of Christ for them.

    Please understand, I'm not calling anybody's position here "Anti-Semitic." I'm just saying we should avoid confusing our statements with the chorus of Anti-Semites. Luther engaged in a lot of "trash-talking" against the Jewish People. See "Against the Jews and their lies." And for his honest, heart-felt statements Luther began to be called, wrongly, an "Anti-Semite!"

    After all, it was Christ who said his heart was stirred within him on their behalf, to gather them together, to restore them to the People of God. Hosea indicated that it was their destiny to be the People of God forever, as a nation attached to the world-wide Church.

    I completely agree that just as in every nation there are people who will not be saved so also in Israel there are many Jews who will never become the People of God. But the destiny for the nation is to become a Christian nation. And thus, the unbelieving Jews must be cut off--not by our hand or methodology, but by the hand of God in His own time.

    God's patience is eternal, as we can see by God's waiting 2000 years for this process of national restoration to unfold. I would not expect an unbelieving Jewish People to convert immediately after national restoration of the State of Israel. But I do see it as preparatory for Christ's Coming, to exalt the remnant of Christian believers among them, and so to set a model for the whole nation in the age to come.

    There are many prophecies of this Age to Come in which Israel will once again shine like a national light to other nations. When Christ comes I believe many nations will either be restored to Christianity or become Christian. Israel may be the last nation to convert to Christianity.

    Let us pray for that. We'll never win anybody to the Lord by damning them as nonChristians, nor by condemning their national restoration as "ungodly." On the other hand, we do have to speak the hard truth, lest we fail to give adequate warning to all unbelievers about what they need to be saved!
    Israel does deserve grace and prayer and love as much as any other nation but I just can't accept that God would persecute His own people by enabling Christ rejecting Jews to kick them off their land and out of their homes it had to be man driven but God can also use it for His purpose

  4. #19
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    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    Your thinking is so much in tune with mine on this. I don't know who the false Messiah will be, and you could be right about him being Muslim, but I can only come to some temporary conclusions until that one is revealed to us.

    But for the rest, spot-on. Christian Zionists and Jewish Zionists (especially groups like Chabad and the Temple Institute) are trying to force the hand of God to fulfil prophecy "now", because they are impatient, and so what they have been accomplishing is the will of man, and bluffing themselves that it's the hand of God.

    When God restores Israel, it's going to be a 100% thorough job - not like the state we see now.

    I like Jews, I appreciate their intelligence and I feel very sorry for Israeli Jews because of the predicament they have been in for so long, but their predicament is precisely because it's not God who created this "Israel" we see now.
    The bold, you are very correct. Its worse than you can imagine.
    A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

  5. #20
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    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Israel does deserve grace and prayer and love as much as any other nation but I just can't accept that God would persecute His own people by enabling Christ rejecting Jews to kick them off their land and out of their homes it had to be man driven but God can also use it for His purpose
    Indeed. ............
    A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

  6. #21
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    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Good post I agree

    Another point to this thread is was it Gods will for none Jewish Christians living in Palestine in 1948 to be throne out out of their houses and kicked out of their land?

    Some christian churches became army headquarters
    Yes, it was unjust to the people who were already living in the area. It's the dilemma of Israel. 100% legitimate in terms of man's laws and 100% unjust to the people who were kicked out of their homes at the same time.

  7. #22
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    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Seems to me we should pray for everyone. To exclude the inhabitants of Jerusalem for prayer would be to miss the heart of Jesus, IMO. How can we not pray for the lost?

    Nailed it. ......
    A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

  8. #23
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    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    Agreed, thank you. You make an important point: The motive of the Zionists exists in their unbelief of the covenant in Christ's blood. God will not support a motive like that, and He definitely will not inspire a motive like that, or help to bring it about. He has allowed it, in the same way He allowed Babylon to destroy Jerusalem and the temple, but without inspiring the heart of Nebuchadnezzar to do it. He simple removed His protection of Judah and let man do his own thing.



    The bold: How are you coming to this conclusion? Just curious.

    It’s kind of 6 of one and half a dozen of the other here, but I am open to other thoughts.
    A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

  9. #24
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    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    What verses support your bolded statement, otherwise I agree.
    My apologies. Let me correct my own statement: God's Israel is in Christ, and it came when He died and rose again from the dead, 2,000 years ago.

    The Kingdom of Christ in terms of what the prophets foretold (too many scriptures to quote) and in terms of what Rev 11:15 promises, is coming soon, when He returns to establish it on earth:

    "And the seventh angel sounded. And there were great voices in Heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ. And He will reign forever and ever." (Revelation 11:15).

  10. #25
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    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    [/B]

    The bold: How are you coming to this conclusion? Just curious.

    It’s kind of 6 of one and half a dozen of the other here, but I am open to other thoughts.
    Yes it is six of one and half a dozen of the other, but God does not inspire man to commit evil, and what Nebuchadnezzar did was evil. When God warned Judah He will bring the Chaldeans against them, He was not saying He was going to inspire Nebuchadnezzar to commit evil. He was simply going to remove His protection from Judah.

    So it's six of Nebuchadnezzar's evil imperialist, power-hungry motives, but it isn't half a dozen of the other, when God permits man to do evil.

  11. #26
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    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    Yes it is six of one and half a dozen of the other, but God does not inspire man to commit evil, and what Nebuchadnezzar did was evil. When God warned Judah He will bring the Chaldeans against them, He was not saying He was going to inspire Nebuchadnezzar to commit evil. He was simply going to remove His protection from Judah.

    So it's six of Nebuchadnezzar's evil imperialist, power-hungry motives, but it isn't half a dozen of the other, when God permits man to do evil.
    Excellent answer. I concur. Well said brother.
    A cannot be A & not A at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

  12. #27
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    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I just do not buy the idea that the current citizens of the Jewish State of Israel, have any claim to God' s favor.
    He has helped them in their wars, to ensure their survival, but that is done for His own purposes; to have a visible entity of Israel, while He works with the true Israelites, still scattered among the nations.

    Thinking that Jewish Israelis will at last come to belief in Jesus, is a contradiction to the many prophesies that tell us they will be Judged and punished and only a remnant will survive. that remnant will be those Jews who have accepted Jesus NOW.

    The whole 'Pray for Israel' idea is wrong, as we are asked to pray for Jerusalem and the holy Land, not the present inhabitants of it. Jeremiah 14:10-12
    THEY are the Israel of man; we Christians are the Israel of God. Galatians 6:14-16
    I believe God was speaking to Jeremiah regarding the Judeans of his day when He said, do not pray for them. He was basically saying, "It's too late, I'm going to have to do what I'm going to have to do".

    Those words do not hold true for our day. We have to look at context.

  13. #28
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    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    I disagree, though. Man does a lot of things without God's approval. Building nuclear weapons to destroy the state of Israel (Iran), for example. Murdering Jews in gas chambers is another example of man's activity which is not of God.

    The point is, man does things without God's consent all the time - and God has not yet restored Israel. Israel is Christ's Kingdom and He will establish it when He returns.

    That being said, I'm not an enemy of the state of Israel or its people. I rather like it and them - but it's man's "Israel", not God's. God's Israel is on its way - and I believe it's just around the corner.
    The way i understand things man disagrees with many of the things our Lord does because we don't think the way he thinks..consider this from..

    Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

    6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

    7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

    8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
    A man is in a great place when he has no one to turn to but God.

    ~ Smith Wigglesworth


  14. #29
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    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    I believe God was speaking to Jeremiah regarding the Judeans of his day when He said, do not pray for them. He was basically saying, "It's too late, I'm going to have to do what I'm going to have to do".

    Those words do not hold true for our day. We have to look at context.
    But today, the Lord is saying to the Jews the exact same threat.
    Remember Pauls statement in 1 Corinthians 10:11, how prior events are symbolic for warning us, upon whom the end of the age has come.

    Many unfulfilled prophecys tell us the Lord will Judge and punish Judah in the last days and only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27

  15. #30
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    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    [/B]

    The bold: How are you coming to this conclusion? Just curious.

    Its kind of 6 of one and half a dozen of the other here, but I am open to other thoughts.
    I hear this all the time. God doesn't do evil, so He's not responsible for, nor controls, all of the evil in the world. But this is just word play to me. If God controls everything, and He does, and if He controls all evil, and He does, then He is responsible for what evil does and controls it. The only thing is, God Himself is not evil. He just enables evil to follow through with the choices it makes.

    When God sends an evil nation in to destroy evil, He *does it!* He controls the Babylonians, and He sends them against apostate Israel, because apostate Israel has turned away from God and away from His covenant. God gives them what they deserve, which is the evil choice they have made for a substitute God. The god they have chosen is in fact the evil Babylonians, and God gives them what they ask for.

    God is not evil in doing this, nor is He part of the evil that the Babylonians were. But He sent them, knowing that apostate Israel deserved the evil Babylonians. God sent the judgment.

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