Page 5 of 9 FirstFirst 123456789 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 133

Thread: Israel of God or of man?

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    3,104
    Blog Entries
    69

    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    It's called the "Kingdom Offer" theory, first put forward by Schofield. The proper understanding is that the 'Kingdom of God' is the Israel of believing Jews and Gentiles.
    Scofeild. There you go. New theology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    It's called the "Kingdom Offer" theory, first put forward by Schofield. The proper understanding is that the 'Kingdom of God' is the Israel of believing Jews and Gentiles.
    Scofeild. There you go. New theology.
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

  2. #62
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    2,811
    Blog Entries
    5

    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy
    If we take a look at how the modern-day state of Israel came into existence, we find a process:
    1) August, 1897: Theodor Herzl founded the Zionist movement in Basel, Switzerland. He was non-religious, a secular Jew.

    2) 02 November, 1917: The Balfour Declaration … It was handed to Lord Rothschild, a non-religious, secular Jew, by British Foreign Secretary, Earl Arthur Balfour.

    3) 29 November, 1947: United Nations Resolution 181 recommends partitioning Palestine into two states: An independent Jewish state and an independent Arab state, with the U.N governing Jerusalem.

    4) 14 May, 1948: Executive Head of the World Zionist Organization, David Ben Gurion, a non-religious, secular Jew, issues the Zionist state of Israel's Declaration of Independence.


    The Temple Institute in Israel is similarly trying to force the hand of God for what they regard as the full restoration of Israel, complete with its Old Testament Temple.

    Both the chabad movement and Temple Institute used to be fringe movements, but they are becoming more and more main-stream.
    Like-wise with the Zionist movement which began near the close of the 19th century - at first it was a fringe movement, but gained traction, and world events (the defeat of the Ottoman-Turk Empire at the end of WWI for example), seemed to make the dream of a Jewish state come closer to reality.

    To many Christians, it may seem that the hand of God was working for the rebirth of the state of Israel, however, the same Christians keep forgetting that the only real and true Messiah has already confirmed God's covenant with [B]the house of Israel and the house of Judah - in His own blood.
    Congratulations m'lo goy for tackling this topic. I agree with what you say, but I would like to add something to your comments about the Zionists, and whether or not their wrong motives necessarily mean that God had nothing to do with the creation of the modern Jewish state.

    I believe God has gathered them back in this our time, not merely to achieve the political aims *they think* they have been gathered for, but pending the fulfilment of an unfinished promise. It means coming face to face with Messiah again!

    The objection might be raised, why should they be gathered? Why shouldn’t God pour out his Spirit wherever they might be scattered without going to the trouble of bringing Jewry back to their ancestral homeland? Again, there is a reason, but not everyone will want to hear it. The prophets indicate Israel’s response to Messiah will happen in the midst of fierce persecution. Their nationhood is necessary because it sets the stage for a revival forged in the furnace of affliction and war. In other words, they are back in their ancient land because God is positioning them for a second opportunity to accept Messiah.

    So yes, they have their human ambitions and plans to build a wicked temple. But no, the regathering was not a coincidence that never involved the hand of God. I think that Jewish Zionists, and Christian dispensationalists, and Christian Covenentists will all be in for a surprise when the real purpose of Israel’s regathering is manifest. That is my humble opinion.
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    3,104
    Blog Entries
    69

    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    It's called the "Kingdom Offer" theory, first put forward by Schofield. The proper understanding is that the 'Kingdom of God' is the Israel of believing Jews and Gentiles.
    Scofeild. There you go. New theology.
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    3,104
    Blog Entries
    69

    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    I don’t know how the double post happened, I did nothing ...perhaps a mod could remove it, it would be appreciated.
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Delta BC Canada
    Posts
    14

    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    2 Corinthians 6:2

    2 For he says,

    “In the time of my favor I heard you,
    and in the day of salvation I helped you.”[a]
    I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation.
    That verse says it all

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    3,104
    Blog Entries
    69

    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    Congratulations m'lo goy for tackling this topic. I agree with what you say, but I would like to add something to your comments about the Zionists, and whether or not their wrong motives necessarily mean that God had nothing to do with the creation of the modern Jewish state.
    I believe God has gathered them back in this our time, not merely to achieve the political aims *they think* they have been gathered for, but pending the fulfilment of an unfinished promise. It means coming face to face with Messiah again!
    If I may add some thoughts here. What is this fulfillment of an unfinished promise? Verses? Has Christ not fulfilled all? What has been stopping any of them from seeing the Messiahs face anywhere in the world? ( just as it happens with Gentiles ) Whats so special about that small piece of physical land, now, post 70Ad, post types and shadows, post Jesus, "Its is finished"... when the NT says ...16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them. HEB 11

    The objection might be raised, why should they be gathered? Why shouldn’t God pour out his Spirit wherever they might be scattered without going to the trouble of bringing Jewry back to their ancestral homeland? Again, there is a reason, but not everyone will want to hear it. The prophets indicate Israel’s response to Messiah will happen in the midst of fierce persecution. Their nationhood is necessary because it sets the stage for a revival forged in the furnace of affliction and war. In other words, they are back in their ancient land because God is positioning them for a second opportunity to accept Messiah.
    Well, yes, I would raise that objection, respectfully. Again, why is this needed when God can/and has been reaching men everywhere since the Cross; why return to types and shadows when the fulfillment is here? The first Jewish converts saw what was happening, saw the fulfillment, connected the dots and wrote the NT; this seems like a major step backwards to me. Affliction and war do indeed have a way of bringing one to their knees, I concur, and God will use this event ( 48' ) to and for His needs, but I just don't see how this is a Biblical based event ( a regathering )

    So yes, they have their human ambitions and plans to build a wicked temple. But no, the regathering was not a coincidence that never involved the hand of God.
    Well, God has His hand in everything, this we all know and agree; I suppose that means even with the Bolsheviks, who murdered millions of Christians, but how far can we stretch this? Does man not bear the responsibly for their actions?

    I think that Jewish Zionists, and Christian dispensationalists, and Christian Covenentists will all be in for a surprise when the real purpose of Israel’s regathering is manifest. That is my humble opinion.
    Thank you for your perspective. I would agree, someone is in for a real surprise!
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    9,978
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    But the plan has already been implemented and was finished on the cross. What about all of those from 70AD onward, until right now, this ”future plan” to save some does not help those dead or soon to be dead.
    Your argument is simple to deal with.
    Why do I say that?
    Well when God told Abraham his plan, he also told him that Abraham himself wouldn't receive it at that time. It was for his children's children. What about those who died?
    What does Hebrews tell us?
    Heb 11:13* These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

    When God told Daniel about things which would happen, or John the Revelation, these were things which would happen in the future. So what about those who died in between?
    Well the truth then as now and always is of course for people to live by faith.

    Beyond this there is also a responsibility to turn to God:
    2Ch 7:14* if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.

    So what you confuse is the individual salvation and that of the House of Israel.

    When Peter preached in Acts 3,000 responded and repented. Later thousands more. However Jesus had stated:
    Mat 23:37* “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!*
    Mat 23:38* See, your house is left to you desolate.*
    Mat 23:39* For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”*

    If AT THE TIME they would have turned and said this THEN His coming would have been a long time ago.
    It is the same with the preaching of the gospel. We have a responsibility to speed His return by fulfilling His Commission.

    His return date is connected with our response to Him.
    This is His plan, very clearly and simply spelt out.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Pitt Meadows b.c.
    Posts
    5,091
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberseeker View Post
    Congratulations m'lo goy for tackling this topic. I agree with what you say, but I would like to add something to your comments about the Zionists, and whether or not their wrong motives necessarily mean that God had nothing to do with the creation of the modern Jewish state.

    I believe God has gathered them back in this our time, not merely to achieve the political aims *they think* they have been gathered for, but pending the fulfilment of an unfinished promise. It means coming face to face with Messiah again!

    The objection might be raised, why should they be gathered? Why shouldn’t God pour out his Spirit wherever they might be scattered without going to the trouble of bringing Jewry back to their ancestral homeland? Again, there is a reason, but not everyone will want to hear it. The prophets indicate Israel’s response to Messiah will happen in the midst of fierce persecution. Their nationhood is necessary because it sets the stage for a revival forged in the furnace of affliction and war. In other words, they are back in their ancient land because God is positioning them for a second opportunity to accept Messiah.

    So yes, they have their human ambitions and plans to build a wicked temple. But no, the regathering was not a coincidence that never involved the hand of God. I think that Jewish Zionists, and Christian dispensationalists, and Christian Covenentists will all be in for a surprise when the real purpose of Israel’s regathering is manifest. That is my humble opinion.
    I believe that the answer is in the parable below

    Luke 16:19-31
    The Rich Man and Lazarus

    19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

    22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

    25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

    27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

    29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

    30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

    31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”


    Jesus states here that they have the Moses (the Law) and the Prophets which all point to Jesus and which is all that they need and all that they will get. Jesus also predicted His death and resurrection and even that won't convince them

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Pitt Meadows b.c.
    Posts
    5,091
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    If I may add some thoughts here. What is this fulfillment of an unfinished promise? Verses? Has Christ not fulfilled all? What has been stopping any of them from seeing the Messiahs face anywhere in the world? ( just as it happens with Gentiles ) Whats so special about that small piece of physical land, now, post 70Ad, post types and shadows, post Jesus, "Its is finished"... when the NT says ...16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them. HEB 11



    Well, yes, I would raise that objection, respectfully. Again, why is this needed when God can/and has been reaching men everywhere since the Cross; why return to types and shadows when the fulfillment is here? The first Jewish converts saw what was happening, saw the fulfillment, connected the dots and wrote the NT; this seems like a major step backwards to me. Affliction and war do indeed have a way of bringing one to their knees, I concur, and God will use this event ( 48' ) to and for His needs, but I just don't see how this is a Biblical based event ( a regathering )



    Well, God has His hand in everything, this we all know and agree; I suppose that means even with the Bolsheviks, who murdered millions of Christians, but how far can we stretch this? Does man not bear the responsibly for their actions?



    Thank you for your perspective. I would agree, someone is in for a real surprise!
    Nice post blue..............

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    145

    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxjj View Post
    I appreciate your post even though it may be dangerous waters. The facts are that those who rejecte Jesus are outside God’s Kingdom because He is the only way as He Himself stated in John 14:6. Talk of salvation for a nation in the future dose not help the people in the past or the people of that nation living now.
    Can't add to anything you say in your post above.

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    145

    Re: Israel of God or of man?


  12. #72
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    145

    Re: Israel of God or of man?


  13. #73
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    3,104
    Blog Entries
    69

    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Test post 1 2 3
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    145

    Re: Israel of God or of man?


  15. #75
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    4,913
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    also test posting...…………………………..
    ".....it's your nickel"

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 16
    Last Post: Apr 22nd 2015, 01:22 AM
  2. Replies: 4
    Last Post: Mar 7th 2010, 07:23 PM
  3. Discussion True Israel or Natural Israel?
    By wpm in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 412
    Last Post: Oct 13th 2008, 08:00 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •