Page 3 of 9 FirstFirst 123456789 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 133

Thread: Israel of God or of man?

  1. #31

    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    From Post #10
    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    We should not regard Jews any differently to what we regard Chinese people, Africans, British, Americans or Hispanic Americans or anyone else if they do not believe in Jesus. We should not elevate anyone to the position as part of "God's elect" until Christ has elevated them to that position. Also, America is man-made too, but we don't say that it was "the hand of God that created the USA" and American Independence Day is the day God intervened in world events on behalf of the Europeans whose forefathers had settled the continent. God might have protected them if they were God-fearing, but He was not inspiring anyone to get mad with the British and decide to give them the boot. It was man doing his own thing. There's nothing supernatural about the rebirth of the state of Israel. The Zionist dream was fully understandable after centuries of antisemitic persecution,but even so, when Israel was born it was God letting man do His own thing.

    Whether we are Christians or Jews, it's wrong to try to force the hand of God to bring prophecy to fulfilment when we want it fulfilled, just because we've grown impatient waiting.
    Jacob received this blessing from his father Isaac. It still applies today.

    Genesis 27:29 NIV "...May those who curse you be cursed and those who bless you be blessed.”

    Also,

    Romans 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

    Actually, I am eager to do my part to make prophecy fulfilled, you know, this one:

    Matthew 24:14 NIV "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

    The UN partition "plan" that started modern state of Israel was not supposed to displace the inhabitants, but just delineate the territorial boundaries. There are Arabs today that live in Israel. The nation's formation was also deeply affected by war and not just politics. Yes, things have gotten quite a bit messier than "planned".

    Another thought is that God gave Israel the land. So it was probably a good idea for Jews to try to live there.

    I think the people of Israel being back in the land is setting the stage for the fulfillment of future prophecies, for example, when God saves the dwellings of Judah in Zechariah 12:7, or the Gog and Magog invasion in Ezekiel 38-39.

    Ezekiel 38:8 After many days you will be called to arms. In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety.

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Little Jerusalem, S-Africa
    Posts
    5,628

    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    I'm going to step into seriously dangerous water now.

    I always supported Israel, but I always wondered just how much the hand of God was involved in the rebirth of the state called "Israel". I'm aware that many Christians see the fact of the state called Israel's existence as clear evidence of the hand of God.

    However, just as the account of Joseph and the Israelites teaches us, and more importantly, just as the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus teaches us, God is able to turn around whatever man does, to bring about God's own will and purpose, but this does not mean that whatever man does, is God's will.

    The New Covenant was promised to "the house of Israel and the house of Judah" (Jer 31:31), and God has already remembered His covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah:

    "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."
    (Matthew 26:28)

    If you believe in Jesus, you become a fellow-citizen with the saints (Eph 2:19) in God's chosen nation, and you become part of the church of Christ (Eph 2:20-21); and in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile (Gal 3:28).

    However, Jesus says to all humanity (including the Jews):

    "He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God." (John 3:18),

    and Paul made it very clear that on the remnant of Jews who believe in Jesus remain part of the Olive tree (Romans 11:17).

    If every single Jew in the world were to repent and turn to Christ today for forgiveness, would they become fellow-citizen with the saints (Eph 2:19) in God's chosen nation, and become part of the church of Christ (Eph 2:20-21)?

    Of course they would.

    If we take a look at how the modern-day state of Israel came into existence, we find a process:

    1) August, 1897: Theodor Herzl founded the Zionist movement in Basel, Switzerland. He was non-religious, a secular Jew.

    2) 02 November, 1917: The Balfour Declaration:

    "His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

    It was handed to Lord Rothschild, a non-religious, secular Jew, by British Foreign Secretary, Earl Arthur Balfour.

    3) 29 November, 1947: United Nations Resolution 181 recommends partitioning Palestine into two states: An independent Jewish state and an independent Arab state, with the U.N governing Jerusalem.

    4) 14 May, 1948: Executive Head of the World Zionist Organization, David Ben Gurion, a non-religious, secular Jew, issues the Zionist state of Israel's Declaration of Independence.

    Many thousands of Orthodox Rabbis believe that the creation and existence of the state called Israel is against the will of God, because they say that the prophecies state that God Himself will bring the Jews back, and they say the modern state is entirely man-made, and exists in defiance of God.

    Forgetting what the Rabbis believe or don't believe though, let's move on:

    The modern-day state called "Israel" is:-

    1) 100% legitimate in terms of man's laws (and therefore has the right to defend itself against any enemy which seeks to destroy it); and

    2) The above fact caused a great injustice to be done to the other inhabitants of what was formerly Palestine, since it was done without their consent and against their will; and

    3) The finest diplomats of the world have never been able to fix the dilemma caused by the above two facts; and

    Searching for the "Messiah"

    Most Jews are non-Christian, and many Jews, regardless of their tolerance of Christians, actually have contempt for Jesus' name and what they regard as the "Christian notions" regarding Him, and are looking for another Messiah to come, who they believe will finally sort out their dilemma in the modern-day state of Israel.

    They believe this "Messiah" is to cause the Dome of the Rock and adjacent mosque to be demolished, and that he will ensure that the temple in Jerusalem (which was destroyed by the Roman armies in 70 A.D), is rebuilt, and he will re-establish animal sacrifices for sins, and begin ruling the world from Jerusalem.

    Why?

    It's because they reject God's covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah in Christ, the new covenant in His blood.

    All of the above, if it comes to pass, will be a great insult to God and to His Christ.

    Was Theodor Herzl and the Zionist movement the hand of God? Was the British government's Balfour Declaration the hand of God? Is the United Nations with their resolutions God? Is God the United Nations?

    Let's turn this the other way around. It was not the will of God for Babylon to destroy Jerusalem and the temple, but God removed His protection from Zion and allowed man (the Babylonians) to do his thing. Likewise when the Romans did their thing: God removed His protection. He did not inspire either Nebuchadnezzer's heart, or the heart of Ceasar and Titus to destroy Jerusalem and the temple, He simply removed His protection of Zion.

    The Chabad/Lubivich and Temple Institute are examples of man trying to force the hand of God (which is the chief gripe of the anti-Zionist Orthodox Rabbis):
    The Cabad members sing "We want Moshiach now! We want Moshiach now! We want Moshiach now!" Over and over they sing it.

    The Temple Institute in Israel is similarly trying to force the hand of God for what they regard as the full restoration of Israel, complete with its Old Testament Temple.

    Both the chabad movement and Temple Institute used to be fringe movements, but they are becoming more and more main-stream.

    Like-wise with the Zionist movement which began near the close of the 19th century - at first it was a fringe movement, but gained traction, and world events (the defeat of the Ottoman-Turk Empire at the end of WWI for example), seemed to make the dream of a Jewish state come closer to reality.

    To many Christians, it may seem that the hand of God was working for the rebirth of the state of Israel, however, the same Christians keep forgetting that the only real and true Messiah has already confirmed God's covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah - in His own blood.

    I have no doubt that God will turn these activities of man and the man-made state of Israel around to bring about His own will and purposes, but God does not compromise with man and man's will:

    Jesus says to all humanity (including the Jews):

    "He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God." (John 3:18),

    and Paul made it very clear that on the remnant of Jews who believe in Jesus remain part of the Olive tree (Romans 11:17). The rest are not considered Israel. They are not. They are considered Israel by man (Jews and many Christians) maybe, but neither Jesus nor His apostles teach it.

    If every single Jew in the world were to repent and turn to Christ today for forgiveness, they would become fellow-citizen with the saints (Eph 2:19) in God's chosen nation, and become part of the church of Christ (Eph 2:20-21) - but that has not happened - not since the birth of Zionism till now, and not from the time Jesus was crucified, till the birth of the Zionist movement.

    God does not compromise on who HE regards as Israel, just because Jews who reject Jesus, and many Christians do. god is not turning His attention "back to His ancient people, Israel" - He already did so, when Christ shed His blood for the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jer 31:31; Mat 26:28).

    Man (including the Jews) has to change His mind about God and His salvation in Jesus, not the other way around.
    Very informative and good post. Thanks for this.

    If I may add, I believe through all ages till this day, starting in tge time of Christ, Jews (a small remnant) came to Christ and it was true in every period since Christ, more or less at times.
    The Rapture

    My dearest friends, I’m so sorry… so sorry
    but I must confess, don’t worry
    the rapture is not before the Great Tribulation
    it’s before God’s wrath!!!

    Because His wrath is not meant for you
    it’s for all the people in the zoo
    think about it and refresh…
    you will see there’s no way out of here, in the flesh

    If you really believe, you will see
    the rapture is for you and me
    when we decide to leave from here
    that very day, oh! God adhere…



  3. #33
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Thames, New Zealand
    Posts
    2,194
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Principle truths of the New Testament: The Christians are the Focus;
    1/ The coming of Jesus into the world is the fulfillment of God’s promise to Abraham. The promise of Abrahams seed, blessing all the nations of the world has been fulfilled in preaching the gospel in all the world and the conversion of the Gentiles over the past 2000 years. Galatians 3:26, Romans 9:8

    2/ It is the gospel church that is central to God’s purposes today. This is not some parenthesis that we are living in, heading for some extraordinary new time when God stops dealing with Christians, and goes back to Jerusalem and the State of Israel, the Jewish people. The Great Commission going out from Jerusalem, to Judea, to Samaria and all the world is not going to end. Jesus sent them out, as previewed in Luke 10:1-10 and in the last days, the 144,000 will finally cover the uttermost parts of the earth. God’s focus is His righteous, faithful people in all the nations of the earth and Jesus builds His church, ready for Him to Return to in glory.

    3/ God’s chosen people are Christians. They are no longer the Jews. Membership of the chosen people of God is open to every ethnicity on the basis of God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Even in the Old Testament other races were welcomed into the true Israel of God, Rahab from Jericho and Ruth from Moab. In the New Testament the word ‘chosen’ is only used of converted Jews and Gentiles. Christians alone under the New Covenant are the chosen peoples of God. Psalms 87:4-6, Isaiah 56:1-8, Revelation 5:9-10

    4/ The promised Land belongs to God and residence in it was always conditional on obedience to God. The land must not be sold permanently, because the land is mine and you are but aliens and my tenants. Leviticus 25:23 God never gave away the freehold. Permanent residence is on the basis of faith in the Lord not ethnicity.
    The House of Israel, the ten Northern tribes and the House of Judah, the two Southern tribes were removed from the Land because of their apostasy and sins.
    Jeremiah was directed to buy a field and bury the title deed for a long time to come. Jeremiah 32:6-15 That prophecy and many others say how the Lord will restore all the holy Land and then only His people will live there. Isaiah 49:8-13, Romans 9:26

    5/ God does not have a plan for Israel separate from the church.
    In Romans 2:28-29 Paul declares, A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No: a man is a Israelite if he is one inwardly and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is not from men, but from God. Romans 2:27-28
    We Christians have been grafted into the spiritual olive and vine that is Jesus Christ. Barren branches have been pruned or cut off and we non-Jews are admitted for our belief and faith. Christians have received the Holy Spirit which is the promise God made to Abraham. We are the true circumcision of the heart: All Christian Gentiles and Jews who trust in the Lord Jesus are the Israel of God. Galatians 6:16

    6/ God has not rejected the Jews. As unbelievers, they are exhorted to put their trust in Christ and be saved. Whoever believes in him, Jew or Gentile, shall have everlasting life. There is now one new humanity. There is only one people of God. There is no longer Jew or Gentile; we are all one in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:11-18 & 4:4-6, John 10:14-16 We are the heirs of the promise. Galatians 3:26-29

    7/ The Jews have experienced a partial hardening. Most of them sided with Caiaphas and their leaders who judged Jesus to be a phony, a blasphemer and a criminal who deserved the capital punishment he got. They judged Jews who believe in Jesus to be turncoats and wicked men at worst, and gullible, misguided fools at best. Unbelieving Jews experienced a hardening against Jesus Christ and his message. But it was not a total and comprehensive resistance. The apostles themselves were all converted Jews, and so were the 3,000 converted to becoming disciples on the day of Pentecost, and so were the hundreds of priests who were a little later to believe in him. It was only a partial hardening of the Jews. Lots of them became Christians and are Messianic Christians today, but scripture is clear: only a remnant will be saved. Romans 9:27

    8/ The full number of the Gentiles is continuing to be added to the people of God. How did this great fullness of the Gentiles come in? Today there are millions of Christians in the continents and countries of the world, as many Christians alive today as all the Christians since Jesus came. You know how it came about, that these Jews, Matthew and Mark and also Luke: though from Gentile descent had become a God-fearing convert to Old Testament religion before becoming a follower of Christ. Then; John, Peter, Paul, James, Jude and the writer to the Hebrews, all these Jews accepted the gospel message. Then some years later they began to commit it into writing with the supervising help of the Spirit of God. They wrote the message of the whole counsel of God. When that was completed, in the full New Testament – all 27 books – it went out and out into all the world in the following centuries, sometimes in great irresistible surges of the Spirit as in the Reformation and the Great Awakening and in the missionary expansion of the church. And the effect of the Jewish written Scriptures read and preached was life from the dead for the blinded, deaf, idol-worshipping Gentile world. It transformed Europe and the Americas, South Korea and now increasingly China and Africa. All of them are amongst the full number of the elect men and women whom God the Father gave to Jesus the Son before the foundation of the world. The Son willingly came into the world to show the Way, the Truth and the Life and he died the death that they should have suffered under the judgment of God, and he did all this as their substitute and advocate to become their Saviour. All those chosen, called and faithful people were saved and will be saved as the Jewish written Scriptures are preached to them in the power of the Holy Spirit.

    9/ All Israel will be saved. That is: all the chosen and called and elect descendants of Jacob, be they Jews or from the other tribes, known only to God, Amos 9:9, will one day irresistibly be saved, but not any of those who refuse to repent or trust in Jesus, Ezekiel 20:37-38, but all who believe on the Lord Jesus will be saved. Every person from every tribe, race, nation and language, Revelation 5:9-10, are saved by grace through faith in our Saviour alone. God said this would happen and so it did, and so it continues to be done.

    10/ All Israel will be saved through personal faith in the Deliverer.
    …..as it is written: ‘The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins. Romans 11:26-27
    What did the prophets say? The deliverer will come from Zion. Who is the deliverer? Jesus the Son of God, of course, the only deliverer, that Jewish man, born in Bethlehem who lived in Nazareth, preached in Galilee, and died in Jerusalem.
    What did the deliverer do to Saul? He turned godlessness away from him. Was there a more godless Jew in the first century than Saul? What did he call himself? The chief of sinners. Yet Jesus turned his godlessness away from him and from all of Jacob/Israel – the name for all the elect, believing Christians. He changed their hearts, making them godly with god-fearing hearts.

    The Bible proof text for believing that Israelites means the people of the whole church made up of Jews and Gentiles together being saved and bearing that rightful covenant name of Israel, is found in Paul’s letter to the Gentile church in Galicia. Paul writes a farewell to the Galatians, and he phrases it like this, “Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God. Galatians 6: 16 So all Israel means every faithful born again Christian.
    This has been how most of the Christian church understood the meaning of this verse in the early centuries, and how John Calvin interpreted this verse. Ref: Geoff Thomas

    Principle truths of the New Testament: The Christians are the Focus;
    1/ The coming of Jesus into the world is the fulfillment of God’s promise to Abraham. The promise of Abrahams seed, blessing all the nations of the world has been fulfilled in preaching the gospel in all the world and the conversion of the Gentiles over the past 2000 years. Galatians 3:26, Romans 9:8

    2/ It is the gospel church that is central to God’s purposes today. This is not some parenthesis that we are living in, heading for some extraordinary new time when God stops dealing with Christians, and goes back to Jerusalem and the State of Israel, the Jewish people. The Great Commission going out from Jerusalem, to Judea, to Samaria and all the world is not going to end. Jesus sent them out, as previewed in Luke 10:1-10 and in the last days, the 144,000 will finally cover the uttermost parts of the earth. God’s focus is His righteous, faithful people in all the nations of the earth and Jesus builds His church, ready for Him to Return to in glory.

    3/ God’s chosen people are Christians. They are no longer the Jews. Membership of the chosen people of God is open to every ethnicity on the basis of God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Even in the Old Testament other races were welcomed into the true Israel of God, Rahab from Jericho and Ruth from Moab. In the New Testament the word ‘chosen’ is only used of converted Jews and Gentiles. Christians alone under the New Covenant are the chosen peoples of God. Psalms 87:4-6, Isaiah 56:1-8, Revelation 5:9-10

    4/ The promised Land belongs to God and residence in it was always conditional on obedience to God. The land must not be sold permanently, because the land is mine and you are but aliens and my tenants. Leviticus 25:23 God never gave away the freehold. Permanent residence is on the basis of faith in the Lord not ethnicity.
    The House of Israel, the ten Northern tribes and the House of Judah, the two Southern tribes were removed from the Land because of their apostasy and sins.
    Jeremiah was directed to buy a field and bury the title deed for a long time to come. Jeremiah 32:6-15 That prophecy and many others say how the Lord will restore all the holy Land and then only His people will live there. Isaiah 49:8-13, Romans 9:26

    5/ God does not have a plan for Israel separate from the church.
    In Romans 2:28-29 Paul declares, A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No: a man is a Israelite if he is one inwardly and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is not from men, but from God. Romans 2:27-28
    We Christians have been grafted into the spiritual olive and vine that is Jesus Christ. Barren branches have been pruned or cut off and we non-Jews are admitted for our belief and faith. Christians have received the Holy Spirit which is the promise God made to Abraham. We are the true circumcision of the heart: All Christian Gentiles and Jews who trust in the Lord Jesus are the Israel of God. Galatians 6:16

    6/ God has not rejected the Jews. As unbelievers, they are exhorted to put their trust in Christ and be saved. Whoever believes in him, Jew or Gentile, shall have everlasting life. There is now one new humanity. There is only one people of God. There is no longer Jew or Gentile; we are all one in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:11-18 & 4:4-6, John 10:14-16 We are the heirs of the promise. Galatians 3:26-29

    7/ The Jews have experienced a partial hardening. Most of them sided with Caiaphas and their leaders who judged Jesus to be a phony, a blasphemer and a criminal who deserved the capital punishment he got. They judged Jews who believe in Jesus to be turncoats and wicked men at worst, and gullible, misguided fools at best. Unbelieving Jews experienced a hardening against Jesus Christ and his message. But it was not a total and comprehensive resistance. The apostles themselves were all converted Jews, and so were the 3,000 converted to becoming disciples on the day of Pentecost, and so were the hundreds of priests who were a little later to believe in him. It was only a partial hardening of the Jews. Lots of them became Christians and are Messianic Christians today, but scripture is clear: only a remnant will be saved. Romans 9:27

    8/ The full number of the Gentiles is continuing to be added to the people of God. How did this great fullness of the Gentiles come in? Today there are millions of Christians in the continents and countries of the world, as many Christians alive today as all the Christians since Jesus came. You know how it came about, that these Jews, Matthew and Mark and also Luke: though from Gentile descent had become a God-fearing convert to Old Testament religion before becoming a follower of Christ. Then; John, Peter, Paul, James, Jude and the writer to the Hebrews, all these Jews accepted the gospel message. Then some years later they began to commit it into writing with the supervising help of the Spirit of God. They wrote the message of the whole counsel of God. When that was completed, in the full New Testament – all 27 books – it went out and out into all the world in the following centuries, sometimes in great irresistible surges of the Spirit as in the Reformation and the Great Awakening and in the missionary expansion of the church. And the effect of the Jewish written Scriptures read and preached was life from the dead for the blinded, deaf, idol-worshipping Gentile world. It transformed Europe and the Americas, South Korea and now increasingly China and Africa. All of them are amongst the full number of the elect men and women whom God the Father gave to Jesus the Son before the foundation of the world. The Son willingly came into the world to show the Way, the Truth and the Life and he died the death that they should have suffered under the judgment of God, and he did all this as their substitute and advocate to become their Saviour. All those chosen, called and faithful people were saved and will be saved as the Jewish written Scriptures are preached to them in the power of the Holy Spirit.

    9/ All Israel will be saved. That is: all the chosen and called and elect descendants of Jacob, be they Jews or from the other tribes, known only to God, Amos 9:9, will one day irresistibly be saved, but not any of those who refuse to repent or trust in Jesus, Ezekiel 20:37-38, but all who believe on the Lord Jesus will be saved. Every person from every tribe, race, nation and language, Revelation 5:9-10, are saved by grace through faith in our Saviour alone. God said this would happen and so it did, and so it continues to be done.

    10/ All Israel will be saved through personal faith in the Deliverer.
    …..as it is written: ‘The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins. Romans 11:26-27
    What did the prophets say? The deliverer will come from Zion. Who is the deliverer? Jesus the Son of God, of course, the only deliverer, that Jewish man, born in Bethlehem who lived in Nazareth, preached in Galilee, and died in Jerusalem.
    What did the deliverer do to Saul? He turned godlessness away from him. Was there a more godless Jew in the first century than Saul? What did he call himself? The chief of sinners. Yet Jesus turned his godlessness away from him and from all of Jacob/Israel – the name for all the elect, believing Christians. He changed their hearts, making them godly with god-fearing hearts.

    The Bible proof text for believing that Israelites means the people of the whole church made up of Jews and Gentiles together being saved and bearing that rightful covenant name of Israel, is found in Paul’s letter to the Gentile church in Galicia. Paul writes a farewell to the Galatians, and he phrases it like this, “Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God. Galatians 6: 16 So all Israel means every faithful born again Christian.
    This has been how most of the Christian church understood the meaning of this verse in the early centuries, and how John Calvin interpreted this verse. Ref: Geoff Thomas

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Coastal Mountains
    Posts
    7,944

    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Seems to me we should pray for everyone. To exclude the inhabitants of Jerusalem for prayer would be to miss the heart of Jesus, IMO. How can we not pray for the lost?
    I think he is referring to the emphasis/focus on a national level. Sure we should all pray for people of other nations, and I personally think especially for the Jews as they are heading towards an end-times revival. But it's pretty weird to be especially interested in the material/military success of a country other than your own, the apostles showed no special interest in the success of Israel during the Jewish revolt and destruction of Israel. And I see no more holiness in Israel now, compared to the apostles' time. On the contrary God sent an army of destruction then, and God promises to do so again, the army of Gog, the northern army , together with the eastern army. Thus we should pray for their souls, so that they are more ready to repent when that army invades, as prophesied in Joel 2:

    The day of the Lord is great; it is dreadful. Who can endure it?
    12 “Even now,” declares the Lord, “return to me with all your heart, with fasting and weeping and mourning.”
    13 Rend your heart and not your garments. Return to the Lord your God for he is gracious and compassionate,

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    In His Service
    Posts
    3,364

    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Psalm 122:5 For there are set thrones of judgment, the thrones of the house of David.

    6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.

    7 Peace be within thy walls, and prosperity within thy palaces.

    8 For my brethren and companions' sakes, I will now say, Peace be within thee.

    9 Because of the house of the LORD our God I will seek thy good.
    A man is in a great place when he has no one to turn to but God.

    ~ Smith Wigglesworth


  6. #36

    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by CFJ View Post
    Very informative and good post. Thanks for this.

    If I may add, I believe through all ages till this day, starting in tge time of Christ, Jews (a small remnant) came to Christ and it was true in every period since Christ, more or less at times.
    I agree, but even if 100 years went past without any Jewish person coming to faith in Jesus, those who believed in the apostles time, though they sleep now, yet they shall be raised again by Christ at His return, so the remnant remains from the 1st century onwards, and every Jew who ever believed is part of that remnant - a great multitude of Israel to be resurrected at the return of Christ!

    Quote Originally Posted by CFJ View Post
    Very informative and good post. Thanks for this.

    If I may add, I believe through all ages till this day, starting in tge time of Christ, Jews (a small remnant) came to Christ and it was true in every period since Christ, more or less at times.
    I agree, but even if 100 years went past without any Jewish person coming to faith in Jesus, those who believed in the apostles time, though they sleep now, yet they shall be raised again by Christ at His return, so the remnant remains from the 1st century onwards, and every Jew who ever believed is part of that remnant - a great multitude of Israel to be resurrected at the return of Christ!

  7. #37

    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Principle truths of the New Testament: The Christians are the Focus;
    1/ The coming of Jesus into the world is the fulfillment of God’s promise to Abraham. The promise of Abrahams seed, blessing all the nations of the world has been fulfilled in preaching the gospel in all the world and the conversion of the Gentiles over the past 2000 years. Galatians 3:26, Romans 9:8

    2/ It is the gospel church that is central to God’s purposes today. This is not some parenthesis that we are living in, heading for some extraordinary new time when God stops dealing with Christians, and goes back to Jerusalem and the State of Israel, the Jewish people. The Great Commission going out from Jerusalem, to Judea, to Samaria and all the world is not going to end. Jesus sent them out, as previewed in Luke 10:1-10 and in the last days, the 144,000 will finally cover the uttermost parts of the earth. God’s focus is His righteous, faithful people in all the nations of the earth and Jesus builds His church, ready for Him to Return to in glory.

    3/ God’s chosen people are Christians. They are no longer the Jews. Membership of the chosen people of God is open to every ethnicity on the basis of God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Even in the Old Testament other races were welcomed into the true Israel of God, Rahab from Jericho and Ruth from Moab. In the New Testament the word ‘chosen’ is only used of converted Jews and Gentiles. Christians alone under the New Covenant are the chosen peoples of God. Psalms 87:4-6, Isaiah 56:1-8, Revelation 5:9-10

    4/ The promised Land belongs to God and residence in it was always conditional on obedience to God. The land must not be sold permanently, because the land is mine and you are but aliens and my tenants. Leviticus 25:23 God never gave away the freehold. Permanent residence is on the basis of faith in the Lord not ethnicity.
    The House of Israel, the ten Northern tribes and the House of Judah, the two Southern tribes were removed from the Land because of their apostasy and sins.
    Jeremiah was directed to buy a field and bury the title deed for a long time to come. Jeremiah 32:6-15 That prophecy and many others say how the Lord will restore all the holy Land and then only His people will live there. Isaiah 49:8-13, Romans 9:26

    5/ God does not have a plan for Israel separate from the church.
    In Romans 2:28-29 Paul declares, A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No: a man is a Israelite if he is one inwardly and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is not from men, but from God. Romans 2:27-28
    We Christians have been grafted into the spiritual olive and vine that is Jesus Christ. Barren branches have been pruned or cut off and we non-Jews are admitted for our belief and faith. Christians have received the Holy Spirit which is the promise God made to Abraham. We are the true circumcision of the heart: All Christian Gentiles and Jews who trust in the Lord Jesus are the Israel of God. Galatians 6:16

    6/ God has not rejected the Jews. As unbelievers, they are exhorted to put their trust in Christ and be saved. Whoever believes in him, Jew or Gentile, shall have everlasting life. There is now one new humanity. There is only one people of God. There is no longer Jew or Gentile; we are all one in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:11-18 & 4:4-6, John 10:14-16 We are the heirs of the promise. Galatians 3:26-29

    7/ The Jews have experienced a partial hardening. Most of them sided with Caiaphas and their leaders who judged Jesus to be a phony, a blasphemer and a criminal who deserved the capital punishment he got. They judged Jews who believe in Jesus to be turncoats and wicked men at worst, and gullible, misguided fools at best. Unbelieving Jews experienced a hardening against Jesus Christ and his message. But it was not a total and comprehensive resistance. The apostles themselves were all converted Jews, and so were the 3,000 converted to becoming disciples on the day of Pentecost, and so were the hundreds of priests who were a little later to believe in him. It was only a partial hardening of the Jews. Lots of them became Christians and are Messianic Christians today, but scripture is clear: only a remnant will be saved. Romans 9:27

    8/ The full number of the Gentiles is continuing to be added to the people of God. How did this great fullness of the Gentiles come in? Today there are millions of Christians in the continents and countries of the world, as many Christians alive today as all the Christians since Jesus came. You know how it came about, that these Jews, Matthew and Mark and also Luke: though from Gentile descent had become a God-fearing convert to Old Testament religion before becoming a follower of Christ. Then; John, Peter, Paul, James, Jude and the writer to the Hebrews, all these Jews accepted the gospel message. Then some years later they began to commit it into writing with the supervising help of the Spirit of God. They wrote the message of the whole counsel of God. When that was completed, in the full New Testament – all 27 books – it went out and out into all the world in the following centuries, sometimes in great irresistible surges of the Spirit as in the Reformation and the Great Awakening and in the missionary expansion of the church. And the effect of the Jewish written Scriptures read and preached was life from the dead for the blinded, deaf, idol-worshipping Gentile world. It transformed Europe and the Americas, South Korea and now increasingly China and Africa. All of them are amongst the full number of the elect men and women whom God the Father gave to Jesus the Son before the foundation of the world. The Son willingly came into the world to show the Way, the Truth and the Life and he died the death that they should have suffered under the judgment of God, and he did all this as their substitute and advocate to become their Saviour. All those chosen, called and faithful people were saved and will be saved as the Jewish written Scriptures are preached to them in the power of the Holy Spirit.

    9/ All Israel will be saved. That is: all the chosen and called and elect descendants of Jacob, be they Jews or from the other tribes, known only to God, Amos 9:9, will one day irresistibly be saved, but not any of those who refuse to repent or trust in Jesus, Ezekiel 20:37-38, but all who believe on the Lord Jesus will be saved. Every person from every tribe, race, nation and language, Revelation 5:9-10, are saved by grace through faith in our Saviour alone. God said this would happen and so it did, and so it continues to be done.

    10/ All Israel will be saved through personal faith in the Deliverer.
    …..as it is written: ‘The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins. Romans 11:26-27
    What did the prophets say? The deliverer will come from Zion. Who is the deliverer? Jesus the Son of God, of course, the only deliverer, that Jewish man, born in Bethlehem who lived in Nazareth, preached in Galilee, and died in Jerusalem.
    What did the deliverer do to Saul? He turned godlessness away from him. Was there a more godless Jew in the first century than Saul? What did he call himself? The chief of sinners. Yet Jesus turned his godlessness away from him and from all of Jacob/Israel – the name for all the elect, believing Christians. He changed their hearts, making them godly with god-fearing hearts.

    The Bible proof text for believing that Israelites means the people of the whole church made up of Jews and Gentiles together being saved and bearing that rightful covenant name of Israel, is found in Paul’s letter to the Gentile church in Galicia. Paul writes a farewell to the Galatians, and he phrases it like this, “Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God. Galatians 6: 16 So all Israel means every faithful born again Christian.
    This has been how most of the Christian church understood the meaning of this verse in the early centuries, and how John Calvin interpreted this verse. Ref: Geoff Thomas

    Principle truths of the New Testament: The Christians are the Focus;
    1/ The coming of Jesus into the world is the fulfillment of God’s promise to Abraham. The promise of Abrahams seed, blessing all the nations of the world has been fulfilled in preaching the gospel in all the world and the conversion of the Gentiles over the past 2000 years. Galatians 3:26, Romans 9:8

    2/ It is the gospel church that is central to God’s purposes today. This is not some parenthesis that we are living in, heading for some extraordinary new time when God stops dealing with Christians, and goes back to Jerusalem and the State of Israel, the Jewish people. The Great Commission going out from Jerusalem, to Judea, to Samaria and all the world is not going to end. Jesus sent them out, as previewed in Luke 10:1-10 and in the last days, the 144,000 will finally cover the uttermost parts of the earth. God’s focus is His righteous, faithful people in all the nations of the earth and Jesus builds His church, ready for Him to Return to in glory.

    3/ God’s chosen people are Christians. They are no longer the Jews. Membership of the chosen people of God is open to every ethnicity on the basis of God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Even in the Old Testament other races were welcomed into the true Israel of God, Rahab from Jericho and Ruth from Moab. In the New Testament the word ‘chosen’ is only used of converted Jews and Gentiles. Christians alone under the New Covenant are the chosen peoples of God. Psalms 87:4-6, Isaiah 56:1-8, Revelation 5:9-10

    4/ The promised Land belongs to God and residence in it was always conditional on obedience to God. The land must not be sold permanently, because the land is mine and you are but aliens and my tenants. Leviticus 25:23 God never gave away the freehold. Permanent residence is on the basis of faith in the Lord not ethnicity.
    The House of Israel, the ten Northern tribes and the House of Judah, the two Southern tribes were removed from the Land because of their apostasy and sins.
    Jeremiah was directed to buy a field and bury the title deed for a long time to come. Jeremiah 32:6-15 That prophecy and many others say how the Lord will restore all the holy Land and then only His people will live there. Isaiah 49:8-13, Romans 9:26

    5/ God does not have a plan for Israel separate from the church.
    In Romans 2:28-29 Paul declares, A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No: a man is a Israelite if he is one inwardly and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is not from men, but from God. Romans 2:27-28
    We Christians have been grafted into the spiritual olive and vine that is Jesus Christ. Barren branches have been pruned or cut off and we non-Jews are admitted for our belief and faith. Christians have received the Holy Spirit which is the promise God made to Abraham. We are the true circumcision of the heart: All Christian Gentiles and Jews who trust in the Lord Jesus are the Israel of God. Galatians 6:16

    6/ God has not rejected the Jews. As unbelievers, they are exhorted to put their trust in Christ and be saved. Whoever believes in him, Jew or Gentile, shall have everlasting life. There is now one new humanity. There is only one people of God. There is no longer Jew or Gentile; we are all one in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:11-18 & 4:4-6, John 10:14-16 We are the heirs of the promise. Galatians 3:26-29

    7/ The Jews have experienced a partial hardening. Most of them sided with Caiaphas and their leaders who judged Jesus to be a phony, a blasphemer and a criminal who deserved the capital punishment he got. They judged Jews who believe in Jesus to be turncoats and wicked men at worst, and gullible, misguided fools at best. Unbelieving Jews experienced a hardening against Jesus Christ and his message. But it was not a total and comprehensive resistance. The apostles themselves were all converted Jews, and so were the 3,000 converted to becoming disciples on the day of Pentecost, and so were the hundreds of priests who were a little later to believe in him. It was only a partial hardening of the Jews. Lots of them became Christians and are Messianic Christians today, but scripture is clear: only a remnant will be saved. Romans 9:27

    8/ The full number of the Gentiles is continuing to be added to the people of God. How did this great fullness of the Gentiles come in? Today there are millions of Christians in the continents and countries of the world, as many Christians alive today as all the Christians since Jesus came. You know how it came about, that these Jews, Matthew and Mark and also Luke: though from Gentile descent had become a God-fearing convert to Old Testament religion before becoming a follower of Christ. Then; John, Peter, Paul, James, Jude and the writer to the Hebrews, all these Jews accepted the gospel message. Then some years later they began to commit it into writing with the supervising help of the Spirit of God. They wrote the message of the whole counsel of God. When that was completed, in the full New Testament – all 27 books – it went out and out into all the world in the following centuries, sometimes in great irresistible surges of the Spirit as in the Reformation and the Great Awakening and in the missionary expansion of the church. And the effect of the Jewish written Scriptures read and preached was life from the dead for the blinded, deaf, idol-worshipping Gentile world. It transformed Europe and the Americas, South Korea and now increasingly China and Africa. All of them are amongst the full number of the elect men and women whom God the Father gave to Jesus the Son before the foundation of the world. The Son willingly came into the world to show the Way, the Truth and the Life and he died the death that they should have suffered under the judgment of God, and he did all this as their substitute and advocate to become their Saviour. All those chosen, called and faithful people were saved and will be saved as the Jewish written Scriptures are preached to them in the power of the Holy Spirit.

    9/ All Israel will be saved. That is: all the chosen and called and elect descendants of Jacob, be they Jews or from the other tribes, known only to God, Amos 9:9, will one day irresistibly be saved, but not any of those who refuse to repent or trust in Jesus, Ezekiel 20:37-38, but all who believe on the Lord Jesus will be saved. Every person from every tribe, race, nation and language, Revelation 5:9-10, are saved by grace through faith in our Saviour alone. God said this would happen and so it did, and so it continues to be done.

    10/ All Israel will be saved through personal faith in the Deliverer.
    …..as it is written: ‘The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins. Romans 11:26-27
    What did the prophets say? The deliverer will come from Zion. Who is the deliverer? Jesus the Son of God, of course, the only deliverer, that Jewish man, born in Bethlehem who lived in Nazareth, preached in Galilee, and died in Jerusalem.
    What did the deliverer do to Saul? He turned godlessness away from him. Was there a more godless Jew in the first century than Saul? What did he call himself? The chief of sinners. Yet Jesus turned his godlessness away from him and from all of Jacob/Israel – the name for all the elect, believing Christians. He changed their hearts, making them godly with god-fearing hearts.

    The Bible proof text for believing that Israelites means the people of the whole church made up of Jews and Gentiles together being saved and bearing that rightful covenant name of Israel, is found in Paul’s letter to the Gentile church in Galicia. Paul writes a farewell to the Galatians, and he phrases it like this, “Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God. Galatians 6: 16 So all Israel means every faithful born again Christian.
    This has been how most of the Christian church understood the meaning of this verse in the early centuries, and how John Calvin interpreted this verse. Ref: Geoff Thomas
    Fully agreed. There is only one Israel. I have to go back to another person's answer here to talk about that again.

    God promised Abraham,

    "And in your Seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."
    (Genesis 22:18);

    and Paul teaches us,

    "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."
    (Galatians 3:16).

    The only seed of Abraham through whom all the nations of the earth have been blessed, is Jesus the Messiah. The only person in heaven and the universe who matters to us in terms of our relationship with God the Father, is Jesus Christ:

    "For God is one, and there is one Mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus,"
    (1 Timothy 2:5).

    Therefore the only covenant that matters is the new covenant in His blood - and that covenant is the only covenant which the house of Israel and the house of Judah have with God, since it was promised to the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jer 31:31). Be we Jew or Gentile, if someone does not have that covenant relationship with God through faith in Jesus, that person is not part of Israel.

  8. #38

    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I hear this all the time. God doesn't do evil, so He's not responsible for, nor controls, all of the evil in the world. But this is just word play to me. If God controls everything, and He does, and if He controls all evil, and He does, then He is responsible for what evil does and controls it. The only thing is, God Himself is not evil. He just enables evil to follow through with the choices it makes.

    When God sends an evil nation in to destroy evil, He *does it!* He controls the Babylonians, and He sends them against apostate Israel, because apostate Israel has turned away from God and away from His covenant. God gives them what they deserve, which is the evil choice they have made for a substitute God. The god they have chosen is in fact the evil Babylonians, and God gives them what they ask for.

    God is not evil in doing this, nor is He part of the evil that the Babylonians were. But He sent them, knowing that apostate Israel deserved the evil Babylonians. God sent the judgment.
    I disagree. When Babylon destroyed Israel, it was six of Nebuchadnezzar's evil imperialist, power-hungry motives but not half a dozen of God's actions - He was simply withdrawing His protection of Judah and allowing man (Nebuchadnezzar) to do his thing. God does not inspire the evil motive in man that causes man to do evil, and just because God withdrew His protection of Judah and allowed Babylon to destroy Jerusalem and the Temple, does not mean that God put Nebuchadnezzar's ambitions into his heart.

  9. #39

    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    You confuse Paul's actual quotes. He is speaking of a "SPIRITUAL ISRAEL" in Juxtaposition to the real "Israel".
    There is and always has been only one real Israel. God did not create a new Israel, a new nation. The covenant He promised to the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jer 31:31) was established in the blood of Christ. The natural seed of Abraham who DID believe remained 100% part of the olive tree (Rom 11:17). Are they not Israel?

    Just because Gentiles who believe are grafted into Israel among the remnant of the natural seed, this does not mean that a "new chosen nation" was created.

    Your distinction implies that there are two chosen nations, but there is only one. To the Gentiles who are grafted into the Olive tree among the remnant Paul says,

    1. If you believe in Jesus, you become a fellow-citizen with the saints (Eph 2:19) in God's chosen nation, and you become part of the church of Christ (Eph 2:20-21); and in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile (Gal 3:28).

    He does not say you become "a citizen" in a new and different (spiritual) Israel. He says we become fellow citizens with ..

    There is no distinction between "natural" Israel and "spiritual Israel".

    God only has one covenant by which anyone can enter into covenant relationship with Him: the new covenant in the blood of Jesus. The only way to be included in God's chosen nation and have a covenant relationship with God, is through faith in Christ and in His shed blood of the new covenant, which was shed for many for the forgiveness of their sins.

    The remnant in the apostles' time were never broken off - they remained part of God's elect. No new elect nation (also falsely known as "spiritual Israel") was brought into being.

    Think about it: According to the teaching of Jesus and His apostles,

    The Temple whose foundation is not Jesus,
    is not the temple.
    The Zion whose foundation is not Christ,
    is not Zion.
    Any nation called "Israel" that does not believe in the Son of God,
    is no Israel.

    That's the teaching of Jesus and His apostles.

    The Jews who reject Christ until the return of Christ, if they receive the mark of the beast, suffer the same fate that anyone who receives the mark of the beast:

    "and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain." (Revelation 13:8).

    The only "real Israel" (as you called it) is in Christ - and the reason why their names are written in the book of life before the foundation of the world, is because
    "He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for your sake," (I Peter 1:20).

    The promises made to Abraham pertain to Christ and belong to Christ, and the inheritance is His:

    "Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, And to offsprings, referring to many, but referring to one, And to your offspring, who is Christ." (Galatians 3:16)

    The only seed of Abraham through whom all the nations of the earth have been blessed, is Jesus the Messiah. The only person in heaven and the universe who matters to us in terms of our relationship with God the Father, is Jesus Christ:

    "For God is one, and there is one Mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus,"
    (1 Timothy 2:5).

    Therefore the only covenant that matters is the new covenant in His blood.

    Christ is the promised seed (Gen.3:15; Ps 2:7-9; Rev.12:5) and the seed of promise (Gen 15:4, 17:7, Gal 3:16; Ps 2:7-9). He is the last Adam (1Cor 15:45; 2 Cor 5:14) in whom all things are made new (2 Cor 5:17); the inheritance is His (Ps 2:7-9; Rev 2;27; Rev 12:5; Rev 19:15), and the promises all pertain to Him (Gal 3:16). He is the Son of God (John 3:18) and the son of Man (Mat 17:22) who represents God to man and man to God (Heb 1:2-3; 1 Tim 2:5) and He is the root and fatness of the olive tree (Rom 11:17), the root and the offspring of David (Rev 22:16) in whom all things are held together (2 Pet 3:5; Heb 1:3).

    Like any Gentile, if any Jew does not have a relationship with God through faith in Jesus Christ, he is not a fellow-citizen of Israel, and never will be, unless he turns, and places his faith in Jesus.

    God will not re-include anyone who does not do this.

  10. #40

    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    You confuse Paul's actual quotes. He is speaking of a "SPIRITUAL ISRAEL" in Juxtaposition to the real "Israel".
    There is and always has been only one real Israel. God did not create a new Israel, a new nation. The covenant He promised to the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jer 31:31) was established in the blood of Christ. The natural seed of Abraham who DID believe remained 100% part of the olive tree (Rom 11:17). Are they not Israel?

    Just because Gentiles who believe are grafted into Israel among the remnant of the natural seed, this does not mean that a "new chosen nation" was created.

    Your distinction implies that there are two chosen nations, but there is only one. To the Gentiles who are grafted into the Olive tree among the remnant Paul says,

    1. If you believe in Jesus, you become a fellow-citizen with the saints (Eph 2:19) in God's chosen nation, and you become part of the church of Christ (Eph 2:20-21); and in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile (Gal 3:28).

    He does not say you become "a citizen" in a new and different (spiritual) Israel. He says we become fellow citizens with ..

    There is no distinction between "natural" Israel and "spiritual Israel".

    God only has one covenant by which anyone can enter into covenant relationship with Him: the new covenant in the blood of Jesus. The only way to be included in God's chosen nation and have a covenant relationship with God, is through faith in Christ and in His shed blood of the new covenant, which was shed for many for the forgiveness of their sins.

    The remnant in the apostles' time were never broken off - they remained part of God's elect. No new elect nation (also falsely known as "spiritual Israel") was brought into being.

    Think about it: According to the teaching of Jesus and His apostles,

    The Temple whose foundation is not Jesus,
    is not the temple.
    The Zion whose foundation is not Christ,
    is not Zion.
    Any nation called "Israel" that does not believe in the Son of God,
    is no Israel.

    That's the teaching of Jesus and His apostles.

    The Jews who reject Christ until the return of Christ, if they receive the mark of the beast, suffer the same fate that anyone who receives the mark of the beast:

    "and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain." (Revelation 13:8).

    The only "real Israel" (as you called it) is in Christ - and the reason why their names are written in the book of life before the foundation of the world, is because
    "He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for your sake," (I Peter 1:20).

    The promises made to Abraham pertain to Christ and belong to Christ, and the inheritance is His:

    "Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, And to offsprings, referring to many, but referring to one, And to your offspring, who is Christ." (Galatians 3:16)

    The only seed of Abraham through whom all the nations of the earth have been blessed, is Jesus the Messiah. The only person in heaven and the universe who matters to us in terms of our relationship with God the Father, is Jesus Christ:

    "For God is one, and there is one Mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus,"
    (1 Timothy 2:5).

    Therefore the only covenant that matters is the new covenant in His blood.

    Christ is the promised seed (Gen.3:15; Ps 2:7-9; Rev.12:5) and the seed of promise (Gen 15:4, 17:7, Gal 3:16; Ps 2:7-9). He is the last Adam (1Cor 15:45; 2 Cor 5:14) in whom all things are made new (2 Cor 5:17); the inheritance is His (Ps 2:7-9; Rev 2;27; Rev 12:5; Rev 19:15), and the promises all pertain to Him (Gal 3:16). He is the Son of God (John 3:18) and the son of Man (Mat 17:22) who represents God to man and man to God (Heb 1:2-3; 1 Tim 2:5) and He is the root and fatness of the olive tree (Rom 11:17), the root and the offspring of David (Rev 22:16) in whom all things are held together (2 Pet 3:5; Heb 1:3).

    Like any Gentile, if any Jew does not have a relationship with God through faith in Jesus Christ, he is not a fellow-citizen of Israel, and never will be, unless he turns, and places his faith in Jesus.

    God will not re-include anyone who does not do this.

  11. #41

    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    You confuse Paul's actual quotes. He is speaking of a "SPIRITUAL ISRAEL" in Juxtaposition to the real "Israel". The Spiritual Israel is all who believe just as Abraham believed God and was considered "RIGHTEOUS" because pf that Faith. But that reasoning in no wise does away with the actual Israel. Likewise many Gentiles don't believe in Christ, but the ones that do believe are still Gentiles in the flesh, we are not Jews !!

    Paul is speaking Metaphorically so that all men understand, whether Jew or Gentle, one must BELIEVE on God/Jesus by Faith alone, that is our justification.

    God deals with the Church {Bride of Christ} and with Israel {Bride of God} at different times however, we have been following Jesus since his death on the cross, the Jews rejected Christ. Thus their Kingdom was PUT OFF, that is what Matt. 24 explains in detail. The Kingdom was offered, and the Jews REJECTED IT !! The last few verses in Matt. 23 tells us this.

    Matthew chapter 24 (Olivet Discourse) happened on the 3rd day of the passion week, whilst John chapters 13-17 (Upper Room) happened on the 6th day of passion week. Matthew's Olivet Discourse was about the Jewish Kingdom being offered/rejected and put on hold, only to be offered again at the end. John's Upper Room chapters are about the Church, Matthews Olivet Discourse was about the coming Kingdom.


    The Kingdom was offered and rejected, Jesus stated he came only to the Jews. Let's look at Matthews Purposes and then the differences between Matthew 24 and John chapters 13-17.

    The Gospel of Matthews Purposes

    1.) To explain that Jesus in whom they had believed in was the long awaited Messiah. (He documents this from the Old Testament)

    2.) To explain why the Kingdom had been postponed despite the fact that the King had arrived. (To explain where the Kingdom was/POSTPONED.)

    3.) To explain the interim program of God during the Kingdoms absence. (Explain what God is doing until the Kingdom arrives.)

    So Matthew's Gospel is explaining to the Jews/Hebrew Christians about the Kingdom, to them King and Kingdom went together like horse & buggy. They couldn't understand why Jesus was their King but there wasn't a Kingdom !! It was a strange happening unto them.

    Matthew & the Kingdom

    * Kingdom offered

    * Kingdom rejected

    * Kingdom postponed

    * Kingdom ultimately accepted

    * Interim program

    Matthew's Message

    Jesus is the predicted Jewish King who ushered in an interim program by building the sons of the kingdom into the church in between Israel's past rejection and future acceptance of her king. As we see in Matt. 23:37-39 Jesus tells the Jews that he would have gathered them unto himself, if they only would [have accepted him], behold your house is left desolate, you will not see me again until you say "BLESSED IS HE THAT COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD !" The problem is they would not accept Jesus, they drove him out of the Fathers Temple, thus the Father's house became "their house". So Jesus is quoting Psalm 118:26, saying he will not come back until this nation acknowledges me as the Messiah. So in Matthew 24 and 25 an explanation is given as per how Israel is going to come back into the fold.

    So Matthew/Jesus is dealing with the end of the interadvent age, not the Church age.
    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    You confuse Paul's actual quotes. He is speaking of a "SPIRITUAL ISRAEL" in Juxtaposition to the real "Israel".
    There is and always has been only one real Israel. God did not create a new Israel, a new nation. The covenant He promised to the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jer 31:31) was established in the blood of Christ. The natural seed of Abraham who DID believe remained 100% part of the olive tree (Rom 11:17). Are they not Israel?

    Just because Gentiles who believe are grafted into Israel among the remnant of the natural seed, this does not mean that a "new chosen nation" was created.

    Your distinction implies that there are two chosen nations, but there is only one. To the Gentiles who are grafted into the Olive tree among the remnant Paul says,

    1. If you believe in Jesus, you become a fellow-citizen with the saints (Eph 2:19) in God's chosen nation, and you become part of the church of Christ (Eph 2:20-21); and in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile (Gal 3:28).

    He does not say you become "a citizen" in a new and different (spiritual) Israel. He says we become fellow citizens with ..

    There is no distinction between "natural" Israel and "spiritual Israel".

    God only has one covenant by which anyone can enter into covenant relationship with Him: the new covenant in the blood of Jesus. The only way to be included in God's chosen nation and have a covenant relationship with God, is through faith in Christ and in His shed blood of the new covenant, which was shed for many for the forgiveness of their sins.

    The remnant in the apostles' time were never broken off - they remained part of God's elect. No new elect nation (also falsely known as "spiritual Israel") was brought into being.

    Think about it: According to the teaching of Jesus and His apostles,

    The Temple whose foundation is not Jesus,
    is not the temple.
    The Zion whose foundation is not Christ,
    is not Zion.
    Any nation called "Israel" that does not believe in the Son of God,
    is no Israel.

    That's the teaching of Jesus and His apostles.

    The Jews who reject Christ until the return of Christ, if they receive the mark of the beast, suffer the same fate that anyone who receives the mark of the beast:

    "and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain." (Revelation 13:8).

    The only "real Israel" (as you called it) is in Christ - and the reason why their names are written in the book of life before the foundation of the world, is because
    "He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for your sake," (I Peter 1:20).

    The promises made to Abraham pertain to Christ and belong to Christ, and the inheritance is His:

    "Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, And to offsprings, referring to many, but referring to one, And to your offspring, who is Christ." (Galatians 3:16)

    The only seed of Abraham through whom all the nations of the earth have been blessed, is Jesus the Messiah. The only person in heaven and the universe who matters to us in terms of our relationship with God the Father, is Jesus Christ:

    "For God is one, and there is one Mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus,"
    (1 Timothy 2:5).

    Therefore the only covenant that matters is the new covenant in His blood.

    Christ is the promised seed (Gen.3:15; Ps 2:7-9; Rev.12:5) and the seed of promise (Gen 15:4, 17:7, Gal 3:16; Ps 2:7-9). He is the last Adam (1Cor 15:45; 2 Cor 5:14) in whom all things are made new (2 Cor 5:17); the inheritance is His (Ps 2:7-9; Rev 2;27; Rev 12:5; Rev 19:15), and the promises all pertain to Him (Gal 3:16). He is the Son of God (John 3:18) and the son of Man (Mat 17:22) who represents God to man and man to God (Heb 1:2-3; 1 Tim 2:5) and He is the root and fatness of the olive tree (Rom 11:17), the root and the offspring of David (Rev 22:16) in whom all things are held together (2 Pet 3:5; Heb 1:3).

    Like any Gentile, if any Jew does not have a relationship with God through faith in Jesus Christ, he is not a fellow-citizen of Israel, and never will be, unless he turns, and places his faith in Jesus.

    God will not re-include anyone who does not do this.

    The point is, your distinction between the church and Israel which you falsely call "spiritual Israel and real israel" is a fabricated distinction. It's having a heart for the Jews which causes people to create distinctions like this which do not exist.

  12. #42
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    3,101
    Blog Entries
    68

    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I hear this all the time. God doesn't do evil, so He's not responsible for, nor controls, all of the evil in the world. But this is just word play to me. If God controls everything, and He does, and if He controls all evil, and He does, then He is responsible for what evil does and controls it. The only thing is, God Himself is not evil. He just enables evil to follow through with the choices it makes.

    When God sends an evil nation in to destroy evil, He *does it!* He controls the Babylonians, and He sends them against apostate Israel, because apostate Israel has turned away from God and away from His covenant. God gives them what they deserve, which is the evil choice they have made for a substitute God. The god they have chosen is in fact the evil Babylonians, and God gives them what they ask for.

    God is not evil in doing this, nor is He part of the evil that the Babylonians were. But He sent them, knowing that apostate Israel deserved the evil Babylonians. God sent the judgment.
    Thank makes sense.
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

  13. #43
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Pacific NW, USA
    Posts
    10,644

    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    I disagree. When Babylon destroyed Israel, it was six of Nebuchadnezzar's evil imperialist, power-hungry motives but not half a dozen of God's actions - He was simply withdrawing His protection of Judah and allowing man (Nebuchadnezzar) to do his thing. God does not inspire the evil motive in man that causes man to do evil, and just because God withdrew His protection of Judah and allowed Babylon to destroy Jerusalem and the Temple, does not mean that God put Nebuchadnezzar's ambitions into his heart.
    That is positively false! The Scriptures say repeatedly that God did the act of sending Babylon as a judgment against apostate Israel! You know full well that I already added the caveat--God did not do the evil itself. That is, God wasn't evil in sending judgment. God wasn't inspiring the evil in the Babylonians. God simply sent evil men against apostate men. That doesn't make God evil!

    Eze 21.A message from the Lord came to me. The Lord said, 2 “Son of man, turn your attention to Jerusalem. Preach against the temple. Prophesy against the land of Israel. 3 Tell them, ‘The Lord says, “I am against you. I will pull out my sword. I will remove from you godly people and sinful people alike. 4 Because I am going to remove them, my sword will be ready to use. I will strike down everyone from south to north. 5 Then all people will know that I have pulled out my sword. I will not put it back. I am the Lord.” ’

  14. #44
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Clanton Alabama
    Posts
    1,010

    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    I agree with much of what you said, but you missed the point - Jesus will restore Israel, He will establish the Kingdom (it's His Kingdom and He is the Lion of Judah). Ben Gurion and all the others have not re-established the Kingdom of God. His Kingdom will be established by Christ Their kingdom (the kingdom established by man's Zionism), is of man.
    I understood your points sir, but it seems you think {maybe I am wrong} that the Kingdom will be made up of Jews and Gentiles, but the Scriptures say the Gentile Nations will bring gifts to Israel. Only the Gentiles who were Martyrs, then given Glorious bodies, serve with Christ on earth for 1000 years, the Raptured Church seems to be in New Jerusalem for the 1000 year reign, thus when New Jerusalem descends it is seen as the Bride of Christ.

    The Kingdom will be offered again to the Jews, after they repent.

    P.S. There are no missing tribes, here was seed from every tribe in Judah when the Northern Kingdom was taken away. All the Levites had moved to Judah because of the Wickedness in the Northern Kingdom. Others had moved to Judah from all 10 tribes, there were those that loved Wickedness who moved from Judah to the Northern Kingdoms also in a vice versa sorta way.

  15. #45
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Location
    Thames, New Zealand
    Posts
    2,194
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    P.S. There are no missing tribes, here was seed from every tribe in Judah when the Northern Kingdom was taken away. All the Levites had moved to Judah because of the Wickedness in the Northern Kingdom. Others had moved to Judah from all 10 tribes, there were those that loved Wickedness who moved from Judah to the Northern Kingdoms also in a vice versa sorta way.
    This is a wrong assertion. Only a few thousand from the ten Northern tribes moved to Judah circa 722-717 BC

    The Jewish people know very well that they represent only 2 tribes' Judah and Benjamin. Those who joined them became Jews, practicing Judaism.
    The Jews are not; as many as the sands of the sea, as the other ten tribes are today, till scattered among the nations.

    You say the Kingdom will be offered again to the Jews. Where does the Bible say that. Please provide the scripture, or be branded as a false teacher.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 16
    Last Post: Apr 22nd 2015, 01:22 AM
  2. Replies: 4
    Last Post: Mar 7th 2010, 07:23 PM
  3. Discussion True Israel or Natural Israel?
    By wpm in forum End Times Chat
    Replies: 412
    Last Post: Oct 13th 2008, 08:00 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •