Israel of God or of man?

[m'lo goy]

M'lo goy said: Not always. We have to be very aware of the historical context. Ezekiel prophecies the two "sticks" will be joined into one.

Re; the great rejoining of Judah and Israel; Ezekiel 37 is a future event, all the faithful Christians from every tribe, race, nation and language will join as one nation in the holy Land. where the Lord will Bless His people and pour out His Spirit upon them. Ezekiel 39:29, Romans 9:24-26

So if the prophecy is a promise (which it is) to both the house of Israel and the house of Judah, then how can you exclude Judah? Judah may be excluded for now, but God had mercy on those on whom He previously had no mercy and called them "My people" of whom He previously had said "You are not My people, and I will not be your God".

Paul told you and me and every Roman that God will eventually have mercy on all Israel, because of the mercy He had on us (Romans 11:25-32). It does not matter to what extent Christians choose to ignore that statement of Paul, but the facts are the facts. It's not finished yet. Something is going to happen which will cause 99.99% of the generation of Judah living at that time those events take place, to be brought into the promised land by Yah'shuah (Joshua/Jesus) when they repent of their unbelief, even though all the previous generations have "perished in the wilderness" in their unbelief.

Jesus is a Jew and just like Joseph who forgave Judah and his brothers after yearning for reconciliation with his own family during all his time in Egypt, God the Father and Jesus the Son do not compromise on unbelief (or apostasy, if we are Christians) breaking us off from covenant relationship with God and hence, God's elect nation - BUT WE received mercy, so it's not finished for Judah. I do not believe God and His Messiah, Jesus has nothing but a desire to evict Judah "for good". I believe He has nothing but a yearning for their re-inclusion when they repent of their unbelief on a tribal (Judah) scale.

M'lo goy said: I totally disagree, and I would like to know which prophecies you are referencing because saying "the prophecies make it clear" is a blanket statement.

I can post over 20 prophesies that do state that of Judah; only a remnant will be saved. That is; there will be no general redemption, but some, just a few, will survive their forthcoming Judgement/punishment by fire. Ezekiel 20:45-48 & Ezekiel 21:1-7
Amos 2:4-5 For their many crimes, I shall grant them no reprieve......I shall send fire upon Judah to destroy their palaces. Isaiah 4:3-4, Isaiah 6:11-13, Isaiah 22:14, +

Unlike Ezekiel, Isaiah was prophesying before Judah's coming captivity in Babylon, and regarding Judah's coming captivity in Babylon. We can't jumble up Ezekiel with Isaiah. What you are doing is ripping many prophecies out of their historical Biblical context (and what they are referring to), jumbling up with other unrelated prophecies in other books, and shoving them in somewhere else in history, in order to try and make them fit a theory that God is forever "done with" the Jews. I've noticed you keep doing that with prophecy.

The usual teaching today of the Jews staying on earth, while the Church raptures to heaven, conflicts with these prophesies, so they are ignored or placed into past history. Which they are surely not, as nothing like what is described ever happened in the past.

Well I'm a post-tribulation-ist, premillenial-ist, non-dispensational-ist "ist". So obviously I do not agree with that either.

M'lo goy said: Not always. We have to be very aware of the historical context. Ezekiel prophecies the two "sticks" will be joined into one.

Re; the great rejoining of Judah and Israel; Ezekiel 37 is a future event, all the faithful Christians from every tribe, race, nation and language will join as one nation in the holy Land. where the Lord will Bless His people and pour out His Spirit upon them. Ezekiel 39:29, Romans 9:24-26

Yep, Israel and Judah will be assembled in unity in the promised land during the millennium and will have one Head, and Jesus will be their King. There will be resurrected saints ruling with Christ over the naturally-born descendants of those who survived (see the image attached).Messianic Age.jpg

[m'lo goy]

I can't edit those posts.

In the post above, "originally posted by Randyk" was "originally posted by Keraz".

The reason it's all messed up is because I accidentally messed it up by pasting [QUOTE=randyk;3490970] - which I had in my clipboard - thinking I was pasting [Quote-keraz:...]

My apologies, Randyk. I would have edited it if I could.

[randyk]

[QUOTE=m'lo goy;3491157]I can't edit those posts.

In the post above, "originally posted by Randyk" was "originally posted by Keraz".

The reason it's all messed up is because I accidentally messed it up by pasting

- which I had in my clipboard - thinking I was pasting [Quote-keraz:...]

My apologies, Randyk. I would have edited it if I could.

Yep, we all have that frustration. Apologies accepted, though it certainly isn't a sin!

[randyk]

In Bible Chat I posted under the thread title: "the whole nation will be saved." Anybody here is welcome to go there to discuss what it means, in Romans 11, when Paul said, "all Israel will be saved." I think much of the confusion between Replacement Theology adherents and those who believe in Israel's literal salvation can be resolved with an honest look at Rom 11. It requires understanding what Paul says and accepting what he says.

For many centuries the Church has done quite well embracing the idea that the "real Israel" is the Church, and I can appreciate the arguments for that. Christianity is to be elevated over Judaism!

On the other hand, Paul quite explicitly indicates that since God has called all nations to Christian salvation He has *not* excluded the nation Israel from this calling! Quite the contrary, God isn't finished keeping His promises to Abraham, preserving a remnant of true blood-relatives for Abraham, and preserving a nation of descendants in his honor.

Certainly, many Jews will have to be culled from this nation in order for it to truly represent Abraham's faith. However, the return to life of the nation Israel indicates God is fulfilling that plan, I believe.

We simply have to understand, I think, that political salvation is directly related to spiritual salvation. Political salvation rests upon the need for spiritual renewal and actual repentance from sin.

And so, we have this continuing process of refinement, preparing the nation for a final culling. And this process is happening in former Christian nations as well, since the rats have out-multiplied the humans! Sorry for putting it in such crass terms, but as Christianity recedes ever farther into the past, former Christian nations are becoming despicably corrupt, just as Israel did in the time of Christ. Leaven truly does leaven the whole lump! And weak Christians have gone to sleep, allowing sin to continue, unmolested, as if compromise was a good thing!

[m'lo goy]

Speaking of the Ezekiel prophecies (I assume chpt 37), do you sense any kind of time span in the places where first it mentions the dry bones coming together and then the sinews and the flesh and the skin (but there was no breath in them) and then after that speaks to the breath cam into them and they lived and stood upon their feet... etc... And then in the Hosea 5:15-6:3 passage I just posted again about (in a different thread) seems also to speak of a couple of stages (regarding Israel), when it says "come let us return" and then says "then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord"... Am I making sense? lol

The time span is the same as the time when Christ Himself gathers His people into Israel - both the house of Israel (and there is enough to show that Gentiles who believe in Christ and are added to Israel are considered the house of Israel) and the house of Judah.

I believe in a literal millennium. I believe just as Christ promised His disciples, those who have followed Him will sit with Him in the regeneration judging the 12 tribes (as the rulers of Israel did in the days of the judges). He also made the same promise regarding ruling over the nations to those of the Thyatira church who remain faithful to sound doctrine, and again it's stated regarding those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus.

All of it takes place after the resurrection.

So who do they rule over as judges if there are no survivors of the calamites to occur when the cities of the nations fall at the time of God's wrath?

See the attached images for my view.

I obviously don't know exactly what is going to take place immediately before the resurrection, in the last days. (Does anyone, now really?)

I believe there is a possibility that Elijah is coming and will "turn away ungodliness from Jacob before the great and awesome Day of the LORD come".

I also believe that just as Joseph revealed to his brothers who he was and they were dismayed in his presence, and yet he forgave them, so any Jew who is still in unbelief when Jesus returns will miss the 1st resurrection and be judged at the close of the millennium.

During the millennium there will be resurrected saints ruling over the nations, those descendants of the survivors of the Day of the LORD, and so everyone will be Christian - until Satan is released again at the close of the millennium to go and deceive the nations again one last time before the "great white throne judgment" takes place.

So to get back to your question about the dry bones living again, I believe it is literally talking about the resurrection, and the two houses will be joined together in the land - but they will all be resurrected saints because during the millennium, the nations will go up from year to year to Jerusalem, as Zechariah's prophecy states (see the images).

Nations against Jerusalem-Zechariah.jpgMessianic Age.jpg Resurrected Saints reigning with Christ.jpgRevelation armies of heaven follow Christ.jpg

[m'lo goy]

Speaking of the Ezekiel prophecies (I assume chpt 37), do you sense any kind of time span in the places where first it mentions the dry bones coming together and then the sinews and the flesh and the skin (but there was no breath in them) and then after that speaks to the breath cam into them and they lived and stood upon their feet... etc... And then in the Hosea 5:15-6:3 passage I just posted again about (in a different thread) seems also to speak of a couple of stages (regarding Israel), when it says "come let us return" and then says "then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord"... Am I making sense? lol

I'm going to quote two verses later than the verse you closed with:

"Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets;
I have slain them by the words of my mouth,
and my judgment goes forth as the light." (Hosea 6:5 [ESV2001])

"And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh." (Revelation of John 19:21 [ESV2001])

Hosea 5 and 6 are regarding the sins and rebellion of both "the house of Israel" (a.k.a Ephraim) and "the house of Judah".
Hos 6:1 is a plea by the prophet for repentance and verse 2 is the promise of the reward of those who do.

[m'lo goy]

In Bible Chat I posted under the thread title: "the whole nation will be saved." Anybody here is welcome to go there to discuss what it means, in Romans 11, when Paul said, "all Israel will be saved." I think much of the confusion between Replacement Theology adherents and those who believe in Israel's literal salvation can be resolved with an honest look at Rom 11. It requires understanding what Paul says and accepting what he says.

For many centuries the Church has done quite well embracing the idea that the "real Israel" is the Church, and I can appreciate the arguments for that. Christianity is to be elevated over Judaism!

On the other hand, Paul quite explicitly indicates that since God has called all nations to Christian salvation He has *not* excluded the nation Israel from this calling! Quite the contrary, God isn't finished keeping His promises to Abraham, preserving a remnant of true blood-relatives for Abraham, and preserving a nation of descendants in his honor.

Certainly, many Jews will have to be culled from this nation in order for it to truly represent Abraham's faith. However, the return to life of the nation Israel indicates God is fulfilling that plan, I believe.

We simply have to understand, I think, that political salvation is directly related to spiritual salvation. Political salvation rests upon the need for spiritual renewal and actual repentance from sin.

And so, we have this continuing process of refinement, preparing the nation for a final culling. And this process is happening in former Christian nations as well, since the rats have out-multiplied the humans! Sorry for putting it in such crass terms, but as Christianity recedes ever farther into the past, former Christian nations are becoming despicably corrupt, just as Israel did in the time of Christ. Leaven truly does leaven the whole lump! And weak Christians have gone to sleep, allowing sin to continue, unmolested, as if compromise was a good thing!

Thanks, I will go take a look and reply to your post there.

[enoch]

I just joined this forum because of this thread

[m'lo goy]

I just joined this forum because of this thread

Welcome! Hope you will post your comments

I just joined this forum because of this thread

Welcome! Hope you will post your comments

Welcome! Hope you will post your comments



Welcome Enoch! Hope you will post your comments

That's better. I hate it when people leave out my name/handle too.

Welcome! Hope you will post your comments



Welcome Enoch! Hope you will post your comments

That's better. I hate it when people leave out my name/handle too.

[Cyberseeker]

Wasn't Miller an "Historicist" (from my fuzzy recollection); and "1844" came about from using "years" in place of where it states "days"...?

Yeah true. The basic idea of Historicism is that prophecy worked out gradually over the church era. That's fair enough IMO, but it so called 'year-day' theory created some strange results.

[m'lo goy]

I concur. There is no scriptural foundation that supports the claim that Judah or 'Jewish Israel' will not be saved. The so-called scriptures that purport to "prove this" are sadly bad interpretations that are far from what they actually say.



I concur. There is no scriptural foundation that supports the claim that Judah or 'Jewish Israel' will not be saved. The so-called scriptures that purport to "prove this" are sadly bad interpretations that are far from what they actually say.

Yes. God desires the salvation of all people:

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." (II Peter 3:9 [ESV2001])

[Keraz]

Yes. God desires the salvation of all people:

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." (II Peter 3:9 [ESV2001])

Right, but we know that some are actually made for destruction. Romans 9:22
They would include people who have had the Gospel presented to them, but have rejected it.

There are now and will be more Jewish Christians alive when the Lord brings out His fiery Judgement upon all of the holy Land, that will change the world. They will survive, Isaiah 29:4, Isaiah 6:11-13, + but the rest will, as plainly stated; be destroyed. Isaiah 22:14, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Jeremiah 10:18
But Bible prophecy is perfectly clear; only a remnant of Judah will survive.

Yes. God desires the salvation of all people:

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." (II Peter 3:9 [ESV2001])

Right, but we know that some are actually made for destruction. Romans 9:22
They would include people who have had the Gospel presented to them, but have rejected it.

There are now and will be more Jewish Christians alive when the Lord brings out His fiery Judgement upon all of the holy Land, that will change the world. They will survive, Isaiah 29:4, Isaiah 6:11-13, + but the rest will, as plainly stated; be destroyed. Isaiah 22:14, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Jeremiah 10:18
But Bible prophecy is perfectly clear; only a remnant of Judah will survive.

[Trivalee]

Yes. God desires the salvation of all people:

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." (II Peter 3:9 [ESV2001])

It's good when we agree. Thanks

Yes. God desires the salvation of all people:

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." (II Peter 3:9 [ESV2001])

It's good when we agree. Thanks