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Thread: Israel of God or of man?

  1. #1

    Israel of God or of man?

    I'm going to step into seriously dangerous water now.

    I always supported Israel, but I always wondered just how much the hand of God was involved in the rebirth of the state called "Israel". I'm aware that many Christians see the fact of the state called Israel's existence as clear evidence of the hand of God.

    However, just as the account of Joseph and the Israelites teaches us, and more importantly, just as the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus teaches us, God is able to turn around whatever man does, to bring about God's own will and purpose, but this does not mean that whatever man does, is God's will.

    The New Covenant was promised to "the house of Israel and the house of Judah" (Jer 31:31), and God has already remembered His covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah:

    "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."
    (Matthew 26:28)

    If you believe in Jesus, you become a fellow-citizen with the saints (Eph 2:19) in God's chosen nation, and you become part of the church of Christ (Eph 2:20-21); and in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile (Gal 3:28).

    However, Jesus says to all humanity (including the Jews):

    "He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God." (John 3:18),

    and Paul made it very clear that on the remnant of Jews who believe in Jesus remain part of the Olive tree (Romans 11:17).

    If every single Jew in the world were to repent and turn to Christ today for forgiveness, would they become fellow-citizen with the saints (Eph 2:19) in God's chosen nation, and become part of the church of Christ (Eph 2:20-21)?

    Of course they would.

    If we take a look at how the modern-day state of Israel came into existence, we find a process:

    1) August, 1897: Theodor Herzl founded the Zionist movement in Basel, Switzerland. He was non-religious, a secular Jew.

    2) 02 November, 1917: The Balfour Declaration:

    "His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

    It was handed to Lord Rothschild, a non-religious, secular Jew, by British Foreign Secretary, Earl Arthur Balfour.

    3) 29 November, 1947: United Nations Resolution 181 recommends partitioning Palestine into two states: An independent Jewish state and an independent Arab state, with the U.N governing Jerusalem.

    4) 14 May, 1948: Executive Head of the World Zionist Organization, David Ben Gurion, a non-religious, secular Jew, issues the Zionist state of Israel's Declaration of Independence.

    Many thousands of Orthodox Rabbis believe that the creation and existence of the state called Israel is against the will of God, because they say that the prophecies state that God Himself will bring the Jews back, and they say the modern state is entirely man-made, and exists in defiance of God.

    Forgetting what the Rabbis believe or don't believe though, let's move on:

    The modern-day state called "Israel" is:-

    1) 100% legitimate in terms of man's laws (and therefore has the right to defend itself against any enemy which seeks to destroy it); and

    2) The above fact caused a great injustice to be done to the other inhabitants of what was formerly Palestine, since it was done without their consent and against their will; and

    3) The finest diplomats of the world have never been able to fix the dilemma caused by the above two facts; and

    Searching for the "Messiah"

    Most Jews are non-Christian, and many Jews, regardless of their tolerance of Christians, actually have contempt for Jesus' name and what they regard as the "Christian notions" regarding Him, and are looking for another Messiah to come, who they believe will finally sort out their dilemma in the modern-day state of Israel.

    They believe this "Messiah" is to cause the Dome of the Rock and adjacent mosque to be demolished, and that he will ensure that the temple in Jerusalem (which was destroyed by the Roman armies in 70 A.D), is rebuilt, and he will re-establish animal sacrifices for sins, and begin ruling the world from Jerusalem.

    Why?

    It's because they reject God's covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah in Christ, the new covenant in His blood.

    All of the above, if it comes to pass, will be a great insult to God and to His Christ.

    Was Theodor Herzl and the Zionist movement the hand of God? Was the British government's Balfour Declaration the hand of God? Is the United Nations with their resolutions God? Is God the United Nations?

    Let's turn this the other way around. It was not the will of God for Babylon to destroy Jerusalem and the temple, but God removed His protection from Zion and allowed man (the Babylonians) to do his thing. Likewise when the Romans did their thing: God removed His protection. He did not inspire either Nebuchadnezzer's heart, or the heart of Ceasar and Titus to destroy Jerusalem and the temple, He simply removed His protection of Zion.

    The Chabad/Lubivich and Temple Institute are examples of man trying to force the hand of God (which is the chief gripe of the anti-Zionist Orthodox Rabbis):
    The Cabad members sing "We want Moshiach now! We want Moshiach now! We want Moshiach now!" Over and over they sing it.

    The Temple Institute in Israel is similarly trying to force the hand of God for what they regard as the full restoration of Israel, complete with its Old Testament Temple.

    Both the chabad movement and Temple Institute used to be fringe movements, but they are becoming more and more main-stream.

    Like-wise with the Zionist movement which began near the close of the 19th century - at first it was a fringe movement, but gained traction, and world events (the defeat of the Ottoman-Turk Empire at the end of WWI for example), seemed to make the dream of a Jewish state come closer to reality.

    To many Christians, it may seem that the hand of God was working for the rebirth of the state of Israel, however, the same Christians keep forgetting that the only real and true Messiah has already confirmed God's covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah - in His own blood.

    I have no doubt that God will turn these activities of man and the man-made state of Israel around to bring about His own will and purposes, but God does not compromise with man and man's will:

    Jesus says to all humanity (including the Jews):

    "He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God." (John 3:18),

    and Paul made it very clear that on the remnant of Jews who believe in Jesus remain part of the Olive tree (Romans 11:17). The rest are not considered Israel. They are not. They are considered Israel by man (Jews and many Christians) maybe, but neither Jesus nor His apostles teach it.

    If every single Jew in the world were to repent and turn to Christ today for forgiveness, they would become fellow-citizen with the saints (Eph 2:19) in God's chosen nation, and become part of the church of Christ (Eph 2:20-21) - but that has not happened - not since the birth of Zionism till now, and not from the time Jesus was crucified, till the birth of the Zionist movement.

    God does not compromise on who HE regards as Israel, just because Jews who reject Jesus, and many Christians do. god is not turning His attention "back to His ancient people, Israel" - He already did so, when Christ shed His blood for the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jer 31:31; Mat 26:28).

    Man (including the Jews) has to change His mind about God and His salvation in Jesus, not the other way around.

  2. #2
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    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Christians are called to be a light to the world, testimonies to the love of Christ for all nations. Israel is one of those nations. And the Jewish People, as "People of the Book," have been hated, persecuted, and ridiculed for centuries. Christians should *not* be engaging in any form of antisemetic sentiment, if at all possible. This is *not* a good witness to the Jewish People! It does not express the love of Christ for them.

    Please understand, I'm not calling anybody's position here "Anti-Semitic." I'm just saying we should avoid confusing our statements with the chorus of Anti-Semites. Luther engaged in a lot of "trash-talking" against the Jewish People. See "Against the Jews and their lies." And for his honest, heart-felt statements Luther began to be called, wrongly, an "Anti-Semite!"

    After all, it was Christ who said his heart was stirred within him on their behalf, to gather them together, to restore them to the People of God. Hosea indicated that it was their destiny to be the People of God forever, as a nation attached to the world-wide Church.

    I completely agree that just as in every nation there are people who will not be saved so also in Israel there are many Jews who will never become the People of God. But the destiny for the nation is to become a Christian nation. And thus, the unbelieving Jews must be cut off--not by our hand or methodology, but by the hand of God in His own time.

    God's patience is eternal, as we can see by God's waiting 2000 years for this process of national restoration to unfold. I would not expect an unbelieving Jewish People to convert immediately after national restoration of the State of Israel. But I do see it as preparatory for Christ's Coming, to exalt the remnant of Christian believers among them, and so to set a model for the whole nation in the age to come.

    There are many prophecies of this Age to Come in which Israel will once again shine like a national light to other nations. When Christ comes I believe many nations will either be restored to Christianity or become Christian. Israel may be the last nation to convert to Christianity.

    Let us pray for that. We'll never win anybody to the Lord by damning them as nonChristians, nor by condemning their national restoration as "ungodly." On the other hand, we do have to speak the hard truth, lest we fail to give adequate warning to all unbelievers about what they need to be saved!

  3. #3
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    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    I'm going to step into seriously dangerous water now.

    I always supported Israel, but I always wondered just how much the hand of God was involved in the rebirth of the state called "Israel". I'm aware that many Christians see the fact of the state called Israel's existence as clear evidence of the hand of God.

    However, just as the account of Joseph and the Israelites teaches us, and more importantly, just as the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus teaches us, God is able to turn around whatever man does, to bring about God's own will and purpose, but this does not mean that whatever man does, is God's will.

    The New Covenant was promised to "the house of Israel and the house of Judah" (Jer 31:31), and God has already remembered His covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah:

    "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."
    (Matthew 26:28)

    If you believe in Jesus, you become a fellow-citizen with the saints (Eph 2:19) in God's chosen nation, and you become part of the church of Christ (Eph 2:20-21); and in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile (Gal 3:28).

    However, Jesus says to all humanity (including the Jews):

    "He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God." (John 3:18),

    and Paul made it very clear that on the remnant of Jews who believe in Jesus remain part of the Olive tree (Romans 11:17).

    If every single Jew in the world were to repent and turn to Christ today for forgiveness, would they become fellow-citizen with the saints (Eph 2:19) in God's chosen nation, and become part of the church of Christ (Eph 2:20-21)?

    Of course they would.

    If we take a look at how the modern-day state of Israel came into existence, we find a process:

    1) August, 1897: Theodor Herzl founded the Zionist movement in Basel, Switzerland. He was non-religious, a secular Jew.

    2) 02 November, 1917: The Balfour Declaration:

    "His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

    It was handed to Lord Rothschild, a non-religious, secular Jew, by British Foreign Secretary, Earl Arthur Balfour.

    3) 29 November, 1947: United Nations Resolution 181 recommends partitioning Palestine into two states: An independent Jewish state and an independent Arab state, with the U.N governing Jerusalem.

    4) 14 May, 1948: Executive Head of the World Zionist Organization, David Ben Gurion, a non-religious, secular Jew, issues the Zionist state of Israel's Declaration of Independence.

    Many thousands of Orthodox Rabbis believe that the creation and existence of the state called Israel is against the will of God, because they say that the prophecies state that God Himself will bring the Jews back, and they say the modern state is entirely man-made, and exists in defiance of God.

    Forgetting what the Rabbis believe or don't believe though, let's move on:

    The modern-day state called "Israel" is:-

    1) 100% legitimate in terms of man's laws (and therefore has the right to defend itself against any enemy which seeks to destroy it); and

    2) The above fact caused a great injustice to be done to the other inhabitants of what was formerly Palestine, since it was done without their consent and against their will; and

    3) The finest diplomats of the world have never been able to fix the dilemma caused by the above two facts; and

    Searching for the "Messiah"

    Most Jews are non-Christian, and many Jews, regardless of their tolerance of Christians, actually have contempt for Jesus' name and what they regard as the "Christian notions" regarding Him, and are looking for another Messiah to come, who they believe will finally sort out their dilemma in the modern-day state of Israel.

    They believe this "Messiah" is to cause the Dome of the Rock and adjacent mosque to be demolished, and that he will ensure that the temple in Jerusalem (which was destroyed by the Roman armies in 70 A.D), is rebuilt, and he will re-establish animal sacrifices for sins, and begin ruling the world from Jerusalem.

    Why?

    It's because they reject God's covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah in Christ, the new covenant in His blood.

    All of the above, if it comes to pass, will be a great insult to God and to His Christ.

    Was Theodor Herzl and the Zionist movement the hand of God? Was the British government's Balfour Declaration the hand of God? Is the United Nations with their resolutions God? Is God the United Nations?

    Let's turn this the other way around. It was not the will of God for Babylon to destroy Jerusalem and the temple, but God removed His protection from Zion and allowed man (the Babylonians) to do his thing. Likewise when the Romans did their thing: God removed His protection. He did not inspire either Nebuchadnezzer's heart, or the heart of Ceasar and Titus to destroy Jerusalem and the temple, He simply removed His protection of Zion.

    The Chabad/Lubivich and Temple Institute are examples of man trying to force the hand of God (which is the chief gripe of the anti-Zionist Orthodox Rabbis):
    The Cabad members sing "We want Moshiach now! We want Moshiach now! We want Moshiach now!" Over and over they sing it.

    The Temple Institute in Israel is similarly trying to force the hand of God for what they regard as the full restoration of Israel, complete with its Old Testament Temple.

    Both the chabad movement and Temple Institute used to be fringe movements, but they are becoming more and more main-stream.

    Like-wise with the Zionist movement which began near the close of the 19th century - at first it was a fringe movement, but gained traction, and world events (the defeat of the Ottoman-Turk Empire at the end of WWI for example), seemed to make the dream of a Jewish state come closer to reality.

    To many Christians, it may seem that the hand of God was working for the rebirth of the state of Israel, however, the same Christians keep forgetting that the only real and true Messiah has already confirmed God's covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah - in His own blood.

    I have no doubt that God will turn these activities of man and the man-made state of Israel around to bring about His own will and purposes, but God does not compromise with man and man's will:

    Jesus says to all humanity (including the Jews):

    "He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God." (John 3:18),

    and Paul made it very clear that on the remnant of Jews who believe in Jesus remain part of the Olive tree (Romans 11:17). The rest are not considered Israel. They are not. They are considered Israel by man (Jews and many Christians) maybe, but neither Jesus nor His apostles teach it.

    If every single Jew in the world were to repent and turn to Christ today for forgiveness, they would become fellow-citizen with the saints (Eph 2:19) in God's chosen nation, and become part of the church of Christ (Eph 2:20-21) - but that has not happened - not since the birth of Zionism till now, and not from the time Jesus was crucified, till the birth of the Zionist movement.

    God does not compromise on who HE regards as Israel, just because Jews who reject Jesus, and many Christians do. god is not turning His attention "back to His ancient people, Israel" - He already did so, when Christ shed His blood for the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jer 31:31; Mat 26:28).

    Man (including the Jews) has to change His mind about God and His salvation in Jesus, not the other way around.
    You confuse Paul's actual quotes. He is speaking of a "SPIRITUAL ISRAEL" in Juxtaposition to the real "Israel". The Spiritual Israel is all who believe just as Abraham believed God and was considered "RIGHTEOUS" because pf that Faith. But that reasoning in no wise does away with the actual Israel. Likewise many Gentiles don't believe in Christ, but the ones that do believe are still Gentiles in the flesh, we are not Jews !!

    Paul is speaking Metaphorically so that all men understand, whether Jew or Gentle, one must BELIEVE on God/Jesus by Faith alone, that is our justification.

    God deals with the Church {Bride of Christ} and with Israel {Bride of God} at different times however, we have been following Jesus since his death on the cross, the Jews rejected Christ. Thus their Kingdom was PUT OFF, that is what Matt. 24 explains in detail. The Kingdom was offered, and the Jews REJECTED IT !! The last few verses in Matt. 23 tells us this.

    Matthew chapter 24 (Olivet Discourse) happened on the 3rd day of the passion week, whilst John chapters 13-17 (Upper Room) happened on the 6th day of passion week. Matthew's Olivet Discourse was about the Jewish Kingdom being offered/rejected and put on hold, only to be offered again at the end. John's Upper Room chapters are about the Church, Matthews Olivet Discourse was about the coming Kingdom.


    The Kingdom was offered and rejected, Jesus stated he came only to the Jews. Let's look at Matthews Purposes and then the differences between Matthew 24 and John chapters 13-17.

    The Gospel of Matthews Purposes

    1.) To explain that Jesus in whom they had believed in was the long awaited Messiah. (He documents this from the Old Testament)

    2.) To explain why the Kingdom had been postponed despite the fact that the King had arrived. (To explain where the Kingdom was/POSTPONED.)

    3.) To explain the interim program of God during the Kingdoms absence. (Explain what God is doing until the Kingdom arrives.)

    So Matthew's Gospel is explaining to the Jews/Hebrew Christians about the Kingdom, to them King and Kingdom went together like horse & buggy. They couldn't understand why Jesus was their King but there wasn't a Kingdom !! It was a strange happening unto them.

    Matthew & the Kingdom

    * Kingdom offered

    * Kingdom rejected

    * Kingdom postponed

    * Kingdom ultimately accepted

    * Interim program

    Matthew's Message

    Jesus is the predicted Jewish King who ushered in an interim program by building the sons of the kingdom into the church in between Israel's past rejection and future acceptance of her king. As we see in Matt. 23:37-39 Jesus tells the Jews that he would have gathered them unto himself, if they only would [have accepted him], behold your house is left desolate, you will not see me again until you say "BLESSED IS HE THAT COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD !" The problem is they would not accept Jesus, they drove him out of the Fathers Temple, thus the Father's house became "their house". So Jesus is quoting Psalm 118:26, saying he will not come back until this nation acknowledges me as the Messiah. So in Matthew 24 and 25 an explanation is given as per how Israel is going to come back into the fold.

    So Matthew/Jesus is dealing with the end of the interadvent age, not the Church age.

  4. #4
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    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    I'm going to step into seriously dangerous water now.

    I always supported Israel, but I always wondered just how much the hand of God was involved in the rebirth of the state called "Israel". I'm aware that many Christians see the fact of the state called Israel's existence as clear evidence of the hand of God.

    However, just as the account of Joseph and the Israelites teaches us, and more importantly, just as the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus teaches us, God is able to turn around whatever man does, to bring about God's own will and purpose, but this does not mean that whatever man does, is God's will.

    The New Covenant was promised to "the house of Israel and the house of Judah" (Jer 31:31), and God has already remembered His covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah:

    "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."
    (Matthew 26:28)

    If you believe in Jesus, you become a fellow-citizen with the saints (Eph 2:19) in God's chosen nation, and you become part of the church of Christ (Eph 2:20-21); and in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile (Gal 3:28).

    However, Jesus says to all humanity (including the Jews):

    "He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God." (John 3:18),

    and Paul made it very clear that on the remnant of Jews who believe in Jesus remain part of the Olive tree (Romans 11:17).

    If every single Jew in the world were to repent and turn to Christ today for forgiveness, would they become fellow-citizen with the saints (Eph 2:19) in God's chosen nation, and become part of the church of Christ (Eph 2:20-21)?

    Of course they would.

    If we take a look at how the modern-day state of Israel came into existence, we find a process:

    1) August, 1897: Theodor Herzl founded the Zionist movement in Basel, Switzerland. He was non-religious, a secular Jew.

    2) 02 November, 1917: The Balfour Declaration:

    "His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

    It was handed to Lord Rothschild, a non-religious, secular Jew, by British Foreign Secretary, Earl Arthur Balfour.

    3) 29 November, 1947: United Nations Resolution 181 recommends partitioning Palestine into two states: An independent Jewish state and an independent Arab state, with the U.N governing Jerusalem.

    4) 14 May, 1948: Executive Head of the World Zionist Organization, David Ben Gurion, a non-religious, secular Jew, issues the Zionist state of Israel's Declaration of Independence.

    Many thousands of Orthodox Rabbis believe that the creation and existence of the state called Israel is against the will of God, because they say that the prophecies state that God Himself will bring the Jews back, and they say the modern state is entirely man-made, and exists in defiance of God.

    Forgetting what the Rabbis believe or don't believe though, let's move on:

    The modern-day state called "Israel" is:-

    1) 100% legitimate in terms of man's laws (and therefore has the right to defend itself against any enemy which seeks to destroy it); and

    2) The above fact caused a great injustice to be done to the other inhabitants of what was formerly Palestine, since it was done without their consent and against their will; and

    3) The finest diplomats of the world have never been able to fix the dilemma caused by the above two facts; and

    Searching for the "Messiah"

    Most Jews are non-Christian, and many Jews, regardless of their tolerance of Christians, actually have contempt for Jesus' name and what they regard as the "Christian notions" regarding Him, and are looking for another Messiah to come, who they believe will finally sort out their dilemma in the modern-day state of Israel.

    They believe this "Messiah" is to cause the Dome of the Rock and adjacent mosque to be demolished, and that he will ensure that the temple in Jerusalem (which was destroyed by the Roman armies in 70 A.D), is rebuilt, and he will re-establish animal sacrifices for sins, and begin ruling the world from Jerusalem.

    Why?

    It's because they reject God's covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah in Christ, the new covenant in His blood.

    All of the above, if it comes to pass, will be a great insult to God and to His Christ.

    Was Theodor Herzl and the Zionist movement the hand of God? Was the British government's Balfour Declaration the hand of God? Is the United Nations with their resolutions God? Is God the United Nations?

    Let's turn this the other way around. It was not the will of God for Babylon to destroy Jerusalem and the temple, but God removed His protection from Zion and allowed man (the Babylonians) to do his thing. Likewise when the Romans did their thing: God removed His protection. He did not inspire either Nebuchadnezzer's heart, or the heart of Ceasar and Titus to destroy Jerusalem and the temple, He simply removed His protection of Zion.

    The Chabad/Lubivich and Temple Institute are examples of man trying to force the hand of God (which is the chief gripe of the anti-Zionist Orthodox Rabbis):
    The Cabad members sing "We want Moshiach now! We want Moshiach now! We want Moshiach now!" Over and over they sing it.

    The Temple Institute in Israel is similarly trying to force the hand of God for what they regard as the full restoration of Israel, complete with its Old Testament Temple.

    Both the chabad movement and Temple Institute used to be fringe movements, but they are becoming more and more main-stream.

    Like-wise with the Zionist movement which began near the close of the 19th century - at first it was a fringe movement, but gained traction, and world events (the defeat of the Ottoman-Turk Empire at the end of WWI for example), seemed to make the dream of a Jewish state come closer to reality.

    To many Christians, it may seem that the hand of God was working for the rebirth of the state of Israel, however, the same Christians keep forgetting that the only real and true Messiah has already confirmed God's covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah - in His own blood.

    I have no doubt that God will turn these activities of man and the man-made state of Israel around to bring about His own will and purposes, but God does not compromise with man and man's will:

    Jesus says to all humanity (including the Jews):

    "He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God." (John 3:18),

    and Paul made it very clear that on the remnant of Jews who believe in Jesus remain part of the Olive tree (Romans 11:17). The rest are not considered Israel. They are not. They are considered Israel by man (Jews and many Christians) maybe, but neither Jesus nor His apostles teach it.

    If every single Jew in the world were to repent and turn to Christ today for forgiveness, they would become fellow-citizen with the saints (Eph 2:19) in God's chosen nation, and become part of the church of Christ (Eph 2:20-21) - but that has not happened - not since the birth of Zionism till now, and not from the time Jesus was crucified, till the birth of the Zionist movement.

    God does not compromise on who HE regards as Israel, just because Jews who reject Jesus, and many Christians do. god is not turning His attention "back to His ancient people, Israel" - He already did so, when Christ shed His blood for the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jer 31:31; Mat 26:28).

    Man (including the Jews) has to change His mind about God and His salvation in Jesus, not the other way around.
    Everything we see and even those things we don't are from God..

    Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
    How can you pull down strongholds of Satan if you don't even have the strength to turn off your TV?

    ~ Leonard Ravenhill



  5. #5
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    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    I always supported Israel, but I always wondered just how much the hand of God was involved in the rebirth of the state called "Israel". I'm aware that many Christians see the fact of the state called Israel's existence as clear evidence of the hand of God.
    Well done for speaking out. I enjoy the fact that Jews have their own territory. Every other country formed out of man's plans and sometimes does good things and sometimes does bad things on a national corporate level. Same as modern Israel. They have cleverly gained Western Christian support as a survival method, also not a bad thing. But the Bible shows us in Ezekiel 39 and Joel 2 that they will end this period in a time of sin and compromise.

    Only at the second coming will the complete regathering of Israel occur. This current regathering will only lead to the shock and disillusionment of Othodox Judaism and Evangelical Christianity as Islam installs their own "Messiah" in Jerusalem at the start of the Great Tribulation.

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    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    I just do not buy the idea that the current citizens of the Jewish State of Israel, have any claim to God' s favor.
    He has helped them in their wars, to ensure their survival, but that is done for His own purposes; to have a visible entity of Israel, while He works with the true Israelites, still scattered among the nations.

    Thinking that Jewish Israelis will at last come to belief in Jesus, is a contradiction to the many prophesies that tell us they will be Judged and punished and only a remnant will survive. that remnant will be those Jews who have accepted Jesus NOW.

    The whole 'Pray for Israel' idea is wrong, as we are asked to pray for Jerusalem and the holy Land, not the present inhabitants of it. Jeremiah 14:10-12
    THEY are the Israel of man; we Christians are the Israel of God. Galatians 6:14-16

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    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The whole 'Pray for Israel' idea is wrong, as we are asked to pray for Jerusalem and the holy Land, not the present inhabitants of it. Jeremiah 14:10-12
    Seems to me we should pray for everyone. To exclude the inhabitants of Jerusalem for prayer would be to miss the heart of Jesus, IMO. How can we not pray for the lost?
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Seems to me we should pray for everyone. To exclude the inhabitants of Jerusalem for prayer would be to miss the heart of Jesus, IMO. How can we not pray for the lost?
    Thanks, Bro Mark. I do pray for the lost and have been a missionary for many years, now retired.
    Did you look up Jeremiah 14:10-12? The Lord specifically says we should not pray for Judah. Also Jeremiah 11:14 and 7:16 Where and when did He rescind that?

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    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    I'm going to step into seriously dangerous water now.

    I always supported Israel, but I always wondered just how much the hand of God was involved in the rebirth of the state called "Israel". I'm aware that many Christians see the fact of the state called Israel's existence as clear evidence of the hand of God.

    However, just as the account of Joseph and the Israelites teaches us, and more importantly, just as the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus teaches us, God is able to turn around whatever man does, to bring about God's own will and purpose, but this does not mean that whatever man does, is God's will.

    The New Covenant was promised to "the house of Israel and the house of Judah" (Jer 31:31), and God has already remembered His covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah:

    "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."
    (Matthew 26:28)

    If you believe in Jesus, you become a fellow-citizen with the saints (Eph 2:19) in God's chosen nation, and you become part of the church of Christ (Eph 2:20-21); and in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile (Gal 3:28).

    However, Jesus says to all humanity (including the Jews):

    "He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God." (John 3:18),

    and Paul made it very clear that on the remnant of Jews who believe in Jesus remain part of the Olive tree (Romans 11:17).

    If every single Jew in the world were to repent and turn to Christ today for forgiveness, would they become fellow-citizen with the saints (Eph 2:19) in God's chosen nation, and become part of the church of Christ (Eph 2:20-21)?

    Of course they would.

    If we take a look at how the modern-day state of Israel came into existence, we find a process:

    1) August, 1897: Theodor Herzl founded the Zionist movement in Basel, Switzerland. He was non-religious, a secular Jew.

    2) 02 November, 1917: The Balfour Declaration:

    "His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

    It was handed to Lord Rothschild, a non-religious, secular Jew, by British Foreign Secretary, Earl Arthur Balfour.

    3) 29 November, 1947: United Nations Resolution 181 recommends partitioning Palestine into two states: An independent Jewish state and an independent Arab state, with the U.N governing Jerusalem.

    4) 14 May, 1948: Executive Head of the World Zionist Organization, David Ben Gurion, a non-religious, secular Jew, issues the Zionist state of Israel's Declaration of Independence.

    Many thousands of Orthodox Rabbis believe that the creation and existence of the state called Israel is against the will of God, because they say that the prophecies state that God Himself will bring the Jews back, and they say the modern state is entirely man-made, and exists in defiance of God.

    Forgetting what the Rabbis believe or don't believe though, let's move on:

    The modern-day state called "Israel" is:-

    1) 100% legitimate in terms of man's laws (and therefore has the right to defend itself against any enemy which seeks to destroy it); and

    2) The above fact caused a great injustice to be done to the other inhabitants of what was formerly Palestine, since it was done without their consent and against their will; and

    3) The finest diplomats of the world have never been able to fix the dilemma caused by the above two facts; and

    Searching for the "Messiah"

    Most Jews are non-Christian, and many Jews, regardless of their tolerance of Christians, actually have contempt for Jesus' name and what they regard as the "Christian notions" regarding Him, and are looking for another Messiah to come, who they believe will finally sort out their dilemma in the modern-day state of Israel.

    They believe this "Messiah" is to cause the Dome of the Rock and adjacent mosque to be demolished, and that he will ensure that the temple in Jerusalem (which was destroyed by the Roman armies in 70 A.D), is rebuilt, and he will re-establish animal sacrifices for sins, and begin ruling the world from Jerusalem.

    Why?

    It's because they reject God's covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah in Christ, the new covenant in His blood.

    All of the above, if it comes to pass, will be a great insult to God and to His Christ.

    Was Theodor Herzl and the Zionist movement the hand of God? Was the British government's Balfour Declaration the hand of God? Is the United Nations with their resolutions God? Is God the United Nations?

    Let's turn this the other way around. It was not the will of God for Babylon to destroy Jerusalem and the temple, but God removed His protection from Zion and allowed man (the Babylonians) to do his thing. Likewise when the Romans did their thing: God removed His protection. He did not inspire either Nebuchadnezzer's heart, or the heart of Ceasar and Titus to destroy Jerusalem and the temple, He simply removed His protection of Zion.

    The Chabad/Lubivich and Temple Institute are examples of man trying to force the hand of God (which is the chief gripe of the anti-Zionist Orthodox Rabbis):
    The Cabad members sing "We want Moshiach now! We want Moshiach now! We want Moshiach now!" Over and over they sing it.

    The Temple Institute in Israel is similarly trying to force the hand of God for what they regard as the full restoration of Israel, complete with its Old Testament Temple.

    Both the chabad movement and Temple Institute used to be fringe movements, but they are becoming more and more main-stream.

    Like-wise with the Zionist movement which began near the close of the 19th century - at first it was a fringe movement, but gained traction, and world events (the defeat of the Ottoman-Turk Empire at the end of WWI for example), seemed to make the dream of a Jewish state come closer to reality.

    To many Christians, it may seem that the hand of God was working for the rebirth of the state of Israel, however, the same Christians keep forgetting that the only real and true Messiah has already confirmed God's covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah - in His own blood.

    I have no doubt that God will turn these activities of man and the man-made state of Israel around to bring about His own will and purposes, but God does not compromise with man and man's will:

    Jesus says to all humanity (including the Jews):

    "He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God." (John 3:18),

    and Paul made it very clear that on the remnant of Jews who believe in Jesus remain part of the Olive tree (Romans 11:17). The rest are not considered Israel. They are not. They are considered Israel by man (Jews and many Christians) maybe, but neither Jesus nor His apostles teach it.

    If every single Jew in the world were to repent and turn to Christ today for forgiveness, they would become fellow-citizen with the saints (Eph 2:19) in God's chosen nation, and become part of the church of Christ (Eph 2:20-21) - but that has not happened - not since the birth of Zionism till now, and not from the time Jesus was crucified, till the birth of the Zionist movement.

    God does not compromise on who HE regards as Israel, just because Jews who reject Jesus, and many Christians do. god is not turning His attention "back to His ancient people, Israel" - He already did so, when Christ shed His blood for the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jer 31:31; Mat 26:28).

    Man (including the Jews) has to change His mind about God and His salvation in Jesus, not the other way around.
    Nice summary.

    I beleive it was of men and not of God, as, what is the point of reigniting something that God allowed destroyed in 70AD? Reinstating sacrifices and building another temple is an affront to God. ( we are now the Temple now ). Jews and Gentiles are in the same boat now, all needing Jesus and his final sacrifice.

    This does not mean we hate the Jews or persecute them, they are the same as any man who knows not the Lord, lost needing salvation and the Truth.

    As I see it, it’s Creation in 48’ was not meant to draw near to God, but to hold onto the shadows and types of long ago, beliefs that were wrong then and are still wrong, being wiped away by the New Covenant. Now ones escatology will drive how one sees this issue, there are many in different camps.

    Thanks for posting that.
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

  10. #10

    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Christians are called to be a light to the world, testimonies to the love of Christ for all nations. Israel is one of those nations. And the Jewish People, as "People of the Book," have been hated, persecuted, and ridiculed for centuries. Christians should *not* be engaging in any form of antisemetic sentiment, if at all possible. This is *not* a good witness to the Jewish People! It does not express the love of Christ for them.

    Please understand, I'm not calling anybody's position here "Anti-Semitic." I'm just saying we should avoid confusing our statements with the chorus of Anti-Semites. Luther engaged in a lot of "trash-talking" against the Jewish People. See "Against the Jews and their lies." And for his honest, heart-felt statements Luther began to be called, wrongly, an "Anti-Semite!"

    After all, it was Christ who said his heart was stirred within him on their behalf, to gather them together, to restore them to the People of God. Hosea indicated that it was their destiny to be the People of God forever, as a nation attached to the world-wide Church.

    I completely agree that just as in every nation there are people who will not be saved so also in Israel there are many Jews who will never become the People of God. But the destiny for the nation is to become a Christian nation. And thus, the unbelieving Jews must be cut off--not by our hand or methodology, but by the hand of God in His own time.

    God's patience is eternal, as we can see by God's waiting 2000 years for this process of national restoration to unfold. I would not expect an unbelieving Jewish People to convert immediately after national restoration of the State of Israel. But I do see it as preparatory for Christ's Coming, to exalt the remnant of Christian believers among them, and so to set a model for the whole nation in the age to come.

    There are many prophecies of this Age to Come in which Israel will once again shine like a national light to other nations. When Christ comes I believe many nations will either be restored to Christianity or become Christian. Israel may be the last nation to convert to Christianity.

    Let us pray for that. We'll never win anybody to the Lord by damning them as nonChristians, nor by condemning their national restoration as "ungodly." On the other hand, we do have to speak the hard truth, lest we fail to give adequate warning to all unbelievers about what they need to be saved!
    I do. I believe firstly that regardless of who demanded Jesus be crucified, it was my sin which caused Him to go to the cross in the first place (and I don't care about anyone else's sin).

    Secondly, Joseph who was sold into Egypt is a type of Jesus (in many ways), and he longed for his estranged family. The house of Pharaoh heard his sobs when he finally was reconciled to his brothers. He revealed to them who he was and they were dismayed in his presence - but he forgave them. That day could have been "judgement day" for Israel, because Joseph had all the power and authority of Pharaoh and could have put them all to death because of what they had done to him. But he did not - he forgave them. But they had to acknowledge their sin and desire reconciliation too, and they were extremely grateful for it. Afterwards, they lived with Joseph in Goshen - the best of the land of Egypt during a long period of peace and prosperity until another Pharaoh arose who did not know Joseph.

    I believe this is all a type of the millennium.

    However, this is not their position before God now. There are Christians who say "they are God's elect even so", but the truth is if they reject the covenant in Christ's blood which was made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, they have no covenant relationship with God. That's the status quo now. Paul lamented it bitterly and told me (forget everyone else, because we all need to personalise it) not to be haughty but to fear, because if God did not spare the natural branches through their unbelief, He will not spare me either.

    Also, if Joseph is a type of Christ (and he is), it means that Christ yearns for reconciliation with his own tribesmen - and I believe Jesus, being fully God and fully Man, still identifies as a Jew - because He called Himself "the root and descendant of David", and in His Revelation to John, He calls Himself not only a Jew, but the Lion of the Jews ("the Lion of the tribe of Judah").

    It's not antisemitism that motivates my post, but a concern that too many Christians lie to themselves about this, always referring to the Abrahamic Covenant - but those Jews who rejected Him made the same claim about Abraham being their father when speaking to Jesus, and we know what Jesus' reply was. One thing I do not like hearing is a Christian telling a Jew who is not in the covenant that the Jews are God's chosen nation, lying to them instead of telling them the truth in love, whether the person being spoken to will believe it or not.

    I know this is not all Christians, but many Christians lie to themselves about this, and they lie to the Jews who are not saved also. I don't think that not telling a Jewish person (with humility, respect, and telling the truth in love) that the new covenant in the blood of Christ was promised to them by God in Jeremiah, is what Jesus wants us to do, and if they ask us if they do not believe does this mean they are condemned (because the Jews are pretty informed already), then we have an obligation to Christ to quote John 3: 18-21. The person we speak to will probably hate us, but we will have given the warning that God expects us to give, instead of lying to them.

    We should not regard Jews any differently to what we regard Chinese people, Africans, British, Americans or Hispanic Americans or anyone else if they do not believe in Jesus. We should not elevate anyone to the position as part of "God's elect" until Christ has elevated them to that position. Also, America is man-made too, but we don't say that it was "the hand of God that created the USA" and American Independence Day is the day God intervened in world events on behalf of the Europeans whose forefathers had settled the continent. God might have protected them if they were God-fearing, but He was not inspiring anyone to get mad with the British and decide to give them the boot. It was man doing his own thing. There's nothing supernatural about the rebirth of the state of Israel. The Zionist dream was fully understandable after centuries of antisemitic persecution,but even so, when Israel was born it was God letting man do His own thing.

    Whether we are Christians or Jews, it's wrong to try to force the hand of God to bring prophecy to fulfilment when we want it fulfilled, just because we've grown impatient waiting.

  11. #11

    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    You confuse Paul's actual quotes. He is speaking of a "SPIRITUAL ISRAEL" in Juxtaposition to the real "Israel". The Spiritual Israel is all who believe just as Abraham believed God and was considered "RIGHTEOUS" because pf that Faith. But that reasoning in no wise does away with the actual Israel. Likewise many Gentiles don't believe in Christ, but the ones that do believe are still Gentiles in the flesh, we are not Jews !!

    Paul is speaking Metaphorically so that all men understand, whether Jew or Gentle, one must BELIEVE on God/Jesus by Faith alone, that is our justification.

    God deals with the Church {Bride of Christ} and with Israel {Bride of God} at different times however, we have been following Jesus since his death on the cross, the Jews rejected Christ. Thus their Kingdom was PUT OFF, that is what Matt. 24 explains in detail. The Kingdom was offered, and the Jews REJECTED IT !! The last few verses in Matt. 23 tells us this.

    Matthew chapter 24 (Olivet Discourse) happened on the 3rd day of the passion week, whilst John chapters 13-17 (Upper Room) happened on the 6th day of passion week. Matthew's Olivet Discourse was about the Jewish Kingdom being offered/rejected and put on hold, only to be offered again at the end. John's Upper Room chapters are about the Church, Matthews Olivet Discourse was about the coming Kingdom.


    The Kingdom was offered and rejected, Jesus stated he came only to the Jews. Let's look at Matthews Purposes and then the differences between Matthew 24 and John chapters 13-17.

    The Gospel of Matthews Purposes

    1.) To explain that Jesus in whom they had believed in was the long awaited Messiah. (He documents this from the Old Testament)

    2.) To explain why the Kingdom had been postponed despite the fact that the King had arrived. (To explain where the Kingdom was/POSTPONED.)

    3.) To explain the interim program of God during the Kingdoms absence. (Explain what God is doing until the Kingdom arrives.)

    So Matthew's Gospel is explaining to the Jews/Hebrew Christians about the Kingdom, to them King and Kingdom went together like horse & buggy. They couldn't understand why Jesus was their King but there wasn't a Kingdom !! It was a strange happening unto them.

    Matthew & the Kingdom

    * Kingdom offered

    * Kingdom rejected

    * Kingdom postponed

    * Kingdom ultimately accepted

    * Interim program

    Matthew's Message

    Jesus is the predicted Jewish King who ushered in an interim program by building the sons of the kingdom into the church in between Israel's past rejection and future acceptance of her king. As we see in Matt. 23:37-39 Jesus tells the Jews that he would have gathered them unto himself, if they only would [have accepted him], behold your house is left desolate, you will not see me again until you say "BLESSED IS HE THAT COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD !" The problem is they would not accept Jesus, they drove him out of the Fathers Temple, thus the Father's house became "their house". So Jesus is quoting Psalm 118:26, saying he will not come back until this nation acknowledges me as the Messiah. So in Matthew 24 and 25 an explanation is given as per how Israel is going to come back into the fold.

    So Matthew/Jesus is dealing with the end of the interadvent age, not the Church age.
    I agree with much of what you said, but you missed the point - Jesus will restore Israel, He will establish the Kingdom (it's His Kingdom and He is the Lion of Judah). Ben Gurion and all the others have not re-established the Kingdom of God. His Kingdom will be established by Christ Their kingdom (the kingdom established by man's Zionism), is of man.

  12. #12

    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Well done for speaking out. I enjoy the fact that Jews have their own territory. Every other country formed out of man's plans and sometimes does good things and sometimes does bad things on a national corporate level. Same as modern Israel. They have cleverly gained Western Christian support as a survival method, also not a bad thing. But the Bible shows us in Ezekiel 39 and Joel 2 that they will end this period in a time of sin and compromise.

    Only at the second coming will the complete regathering of Israel occur. This current regathering will only lead to the shock and disillusionment of Othodox Judaism and Evangelical Christianity as Islam installs their own "Messiah" in Jerusalem at the start of the Great Tribulation.
    Your thinking is so much in tune with mine on this. I don't know who the false Messiah will be, and you could be right about him being Muslim, but I can only come to some temporary conclusions until that one is revealed to us.

    But for the rest, spot-on. Christian Zionists and Jewish Zionists (especially groups like Chabad and the Temple Institute) are trying to force the hand of God to fulfil prophecy "now", because they are impatient, and so what they have been accomplishing is the will of man, and bluffing themselves that it's the hand of God.

    When God restores Israel, it's going to be a 100% thorough job - not like the state we see now.

    I like Jews, I appreciate their intelligence and I feel very sorry for Israeli Jews because of the predicament they have been in for so long, but their predicament is precisely because it's not God who created this "Israel" we see now.

  13. #13

    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jude View Post
    Everything we see and even those things we don't are from God..

    Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
    I disagree, though. Man does a lot of things without God's approval. Building nuclear weapons to destroy the state of Israel (Iran), for example. Murdering Jews in gas chambers is another example of man's activity which is not of God.

    The point is, man does things without God's consent all the time - and God has not yet restored Israel. Israel is Christ's Kingdom and He will establish it when He returns.

    That being said, I'm not an enemy of the state of Israel or its people. I rather like it and them - but it's man's "Israel", not God's. God's Israel is on its way - and I believe it's just around the corner.

  14. #14
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    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    I'm going to step into seriously dangerous water now.

    I always supported Israel, but I always wondered just how much the hand of God was involved in the rebirth of the state called "Israel". I'm aware that many Christians see the fact of the state called Israel's existence as clear evidence of the hand of God.

    However, just as the account of Joseph and the Israelites teaches us, and more importantly, just as the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus teaches us, God is able to turn around whatever man does, to bring about God's own will and purpose, but this does not mean that whatever man does, is God's will.

    The New Covenant was promised to "the house of Israel and the house of Judah" (Jer 31:31), and God has already remembered His covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah:

    "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."
    (Matthew 26:28)

    If you believe in Jesus, you become a fellow-citizen with the saints (Eph 2:19) in God's chosen nation, and you become part of the church of Christ (Eph 2:20-21); and in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile (Gal 3:28).

    However, Jesus says to all humanity (including the Jews):

    "He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God." (John 3:18),

    and Paul made it very clear that on the remnant of Jews who believe in Jesus remain part of the Olive tree (Romans 11:17).

    If every single Jew in the world were to repent and turn to Christ today for forgiveness, would they become fellow-citizen with the saints (Eph 2:19) in God's chosen nation, and become part of the church of Christ (Eph 2:20-21)?

    Of course they would.

    If we take a look at how the modern-day state of Israel came into existence, we find a process:

    1) August, 1897: Theodor Herzl founded the Zionist movement in Basel, Switzerland. He was non-religious, a secular Jew.

    2) 02 November, 1917: The Balfour Declaration:

    "His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

    It was handed to Lord Rothschild, a non-religious, secular Jew, by British Foreign Secretary, Earl Arthur Balfour.

    3) 29 November, 1947: United Nations Resolution 181 recommends partitioning Palestine into two states: An independent Jewish state and an independent Arab state, with the U.N governing Jerusalem.

    4) 14 May, 1948: Executive Head of the World Zionist Organization, David Ben Gurion, a non-religious, secular Jew, issues the Zionist state of Israel's Declaration of Independence.

    Many thousands of Orthodox Rabbis believe that the creation and existence of the state called Israel is against the will of God, because they say that the prophecies state that God Himself will bring the Jews back, and they say the modern state is entirely man-made, and exists in defiance of God.

    Forgetting what the Rabbis believe or don't believe though, let's move on:

    The modern-day state called "Israel" is:-

    1) 100% legitimate in terms of man's laws (and therefore has the right to defend itself against any enemy which seeks to destroy it); and

    2) The above fact caused a great injustice to be done to the other inhabitants of what was formerly Palestine, since it was done without their consent and against their will; and

    3) The finest diplomats of the world have never been able to fix the dilemma caused by the above two facts; and

    Searching for the "Messiah"

    Most Jews are non-Christian, and many Jews, regardless of their tolerance of Christians, actually have contempt for Jesus' name and what they regard as the "Christian notions" regarding Him, and are looking for another Messiah to come, who they believe will finally sort out their dilemma in the modern-day state of Israel.

    They believe this "Messiah" is to cause the Dome of the Rock and adjacent mosque to be demolished, and that he will ensure that the temple in Jerusalem (which was destroyed by the Roman armies in 70 A.D), is rebuilt, and he will re-establish animal sacrifices for sins, and begin ruling the world from Jerusalem.

    Why?

    It's because they reject God's covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah in Christ, the new covenant in His blood.

    All of the above, if it comes to pass, will be a great insult to God and to His Christ.

    Was Theodor Herzl and the Zionist movement the hand of God? Was the British government's Balfour Declaration the hand of God? Is the United Nations with their resolutions God? Is God the United Nations?

    Let's turn this the other way around. It was not the will of God for Babylon to destroy Jerusalem and the temple, but God removed His protection from Zion and allowed man (the Babylonians) to do his thing. Likewise when the Romans did their thing: God removed His protection. He did not inspire either Nebuchadnezzer's heart, or the heart of Ceasar and Titus to destroy Jerusalem and the temple, He simply removed His protection of Zion.

    The Chabad/Lubivich and Temple Institute are examples of man trying to force the hand of God (which is the chief gripe of the anti-Zionist Orthodox Rabbis):
    The Cabad members sing "We want Moshiach now! We want Moshiach now! We want Moshiach now!" Over and over they sing it.

    The Temple Institute in Israel is similarly trying to force the hand of God for what they regard as the full restoration of Israel, complete with its Old Testament Temple.

    Both the chabad movement and Temple Institute used to be fringe movements, but they are becoming more and more main-stream.

    Like-wise with the Zionist movement which began near the close of the 19th century - at first it was a fringe movement, but gained traction, and world events (the defeat of the Ottoman-Turk Empire at the end of WWI for example), seemed to make the dream of a Jewish state come closer to reality.

    To many Christians, it may seem that the hand of God was working for the rebirth of the state of Israel, however, the same Christians keep forgetting that the only real and true Messiah has already confirmed God's covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah - in His own blood.

    I have no doubt that God will turn these activities of man and the man-made state of Israel around to bring about His own will and purposes, but God does not compromise with man and man's will:

    Jesus says to all humanity (including the Jews):

    "He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God." (John 3:18),

    and Paul made it very clear that on the remnant of Jews who believe in Jesus remain part of the Olive tree (Romans 11:17). The rest are not considered Israel. They are not. They are considered Israel by man (Jews and many Christians) maybe, but neither Jesus nor His apostles teach it.

    If every single Jew in the world were to repent and turn to Christ today for forgiveness, they would become fellow-citizen with the saints (Eph 2:19) in God's chosen nation, and become part of the church of Christ (Eph 2:20-21) - but that has not happened - not since the birth of Zionism till now, and not from the time Jesus was crucified, till the birth of the Zionist movement.

    God does not compromise on who HE regards as Israel, just because Jews who reject Jesus, and many Christians do. god is not turning His attention "back to His ancient people, Israel" - He already did so, when Christ shed His blood for the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jer 31:31; Mat 26:28).

    Man (including the Jews) has to change His mind about God and His salvation in Jesus, not the other way around.
    Good post I agree

    Another point to this thread is was it Gods will for none Jewish Christians living in Palestine in 1948 to be throne out out of their houses and kicked out of their land?

    Some christian churches became army headquarters

  15. #15
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    Re: Israel of God or of man?

    Quote Originally Posted by m'lo goy View Post
    I do. I believe firstly that regardless of who demanded Jesus be crucified, it was my sin which caused Him to go to the cross in the first place (and I don't care about anyone else's sin).

    Secondly, Joseph who was sold into Egypt is a type of Jesus (in many ways), and he longed for his estranged family. The house of Pharaoh heard his sobs when he finally was reconciled to his brothers. He revealed to them who he was and they were dismayed in his presence - but he forgave them. That day could have been "judgement day" for Israel, because Joseph had all the power and authority of Pharaoh and could have put them all to death because of what they had done to him. But he did not - he forgave them. But they had to acknowledge their sin and desire reconciliation too, and they were extremely grateful for it. Afterwards, they lived with Joseph in Goshen - the best of the land of Egypt during a long period of peace and prosperity until another Pharaoh arose who did not know Joseph.

    I believe this is all a type of the millennium.

    However, this is not their position before God now. There are Christians who say "they are God's elect even so", but the truth is if they reject the covenant in Christ's blood which was made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, they have no covenant relationship with God. That's the status quo now. Paul lamented it bitterly and told me (forget everyone else, because we all need to personalise it) not to be haughty but to fear, because if God did not spare the natural branches through their unbelief, He will not spare me either.

    Also, if Joseph is a type of Christ (and he is), it means that Christ yearns for reconciliation with his own tribesmen - and I believe Jesus, being fully God and fully Man, still identifies as a Jew - because He called Himself "the root and descendant of David", and in His Revelation to John, He calls Himself not only a Jew, but the Lion of the Jews ("the Lion of the tribe of Judah").

    It's not antisemitism that motivates my post, but a concern that too many Christians lie to themselves about this, always referring to the Abrahamic Covenant - but those Jews who rejected Him made the same claim about Abraham being their father when speaking to Jesus, and we know what Jesus' reply was. One thing I do not like hearing is a Christian telling a Jew who is not in the covenant that the Jews are God's chosen nation, lying to them instead of telling them the truth in love, whether the person being spoken to will believe it or not.

    I know this is not all Christians, but many Christians lie to themselves about this, and they lie to the Jews who are not saved also. I don't think that not telling a Jewish person (with humility, respect, and telling the truth in love) that the new covenant in the blood of Christ was promised to them by God in Jeremiah, is what Jesus wants us to do, and if they ask us if they do not believe does this mean they are condemned (because the Jews are pretty informed already), then we have an obligation to Christ to quote John 3: 18-21. The person we speak to will probably hate us, but we will have given the warning that God expects us to give, instead of lying to them.

    We should not regard Jews any differently to what we regard Chinese people, Africans, British, Americans or Hispanic Americans or anyone else if they do not believe in Jesus. We should not elevate anyone to the position as part of "God's elect" until Christ has elevated them to that position. Also, America is man-made too, but we don't say that it was "the hand of God that created the USA" and American Independence Day is the day God intervened in world events on behalf of the Europeans whose forefathers had settled the continent. God might have protected them if they were God-fearing, but He was not inspiring anyone to get mad with the British and decide to give them the boot. It was man doing his own thing. There's nothing supernatural about the rebirth of the state of Israel. The Zionist dream was fully understandable after centuries of antisemitic persecution,but even so, when Israel was born it was God letting man do His own thing.

    Whether we are Christians or Jews, it's wrong to try to force the hand of God to bring prophecy to fulfilment when we want it fulfilled, just because we've grown impatient waiting.

    Nicely said. I concur.
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

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